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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
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how can collective consciousness exist?
    #2793151 - 06/14/04 07:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i have been thinking a lot of this concept as of late, of a collective whole, that our consciousness might have a source that is beyond this body. Am I thinking of this concept correctly for those who believe in this?

if I am, I have to refer to a post by positronius regarding compassion. in there mixo brought up an obvious point that for some reason or another I didn't think of. The idea here is regarding concepts working on a grand scale.

When has one specific "way" or "belief" ever catch on with the majority of the people here? all across the world we have different ideas and concepts, I think even person to person there will be suttle differences in our belief system.

if we have a collective consciousness, how can you explain this then? how can you explain why many of us nearly all have different prefrences in faith?

would those who believe in collective consciousness say that the ego definately acts as a filter to give us all the illsuion we are seperate? what other ways can you explain this?

can any of you who do believe give an example of collective consciousness that can show it is actually there? would we use science? is our technology up to par to answer this sort of question?

...or do we need a new way of thinking about a concept such as this?

how about those who don't believe...can you give examples that it doesn't exist, without a doubt?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2793168 - 06/14/04 08:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2793365 - 06/15/04 12:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

how about those who don't believe...can you give examples that it doesn't exist, without a doubt?

Puh-lease! This has been covered at least a dozen times per year here. It is logically impossible to prove a negative. One can only poke holes in examples claimed to prove it does exists (like the often misunderstood and fallacious "Hundreth Monkey" myth).


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (06/15/04 10:22 AM)


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2793623 - 06/15/04 01:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i for one do believe in it... my only thoughts on the individual differences of people, is that we are all basically the same, biologically, with some subtle differences of color or size or allergies or whatever, but our organs are all laid out the same, and our skelatal structure is designed to grow a certain way.  but aside from identical twins, and even then at times, there are differences in this physiology.  so we are the same physically but we are not.  we all come from the gene pool, that has been breeding and mixing a muck for quite awhile!  could you consider the "gene pool" the collective physical aspect of humanity?  totally random but basically predictable through genetics?  i would think the same would apply to our conscious aspects also. the whole idea of the noosphere is a provoking thought...

this is not my normal area of expertise, but that is my opinion anyway :smile:  since you werent mean about asking for it :wink:.

peace
:kodama:


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2793669 - 06/15/04 02:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i understand perfectly how a collective consciousness can exist.
mushrooms even further this realization as i can feel and sometimes even see the network of spiritual energy that connects all beings on all planes of existance. The ego and the physical mind are built for our basic everyday survival so i think the collective conscious would have to be either blobked out or very subtle just to perform everyday tasks. collective consciousness also goes along with saying that everything is everything. matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed so everything is everything. this is what i truly feel to be absolute when i am on shrooms. There are collective consciousnesses inside the collective consciousness. The physical earth has its own collective consciousness. I have been wrapped in her arms before and gazed out above the deep purple heavens with her.
although
it might just be
all a hallucination.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas] * 1
    #2793864 - 06/15/04 03:52 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Science tends to stay away from sticky areas like the nature of consciousness... :smirk:

That being said, I think our current theories are starting to lend a hand to the subject! Quantum physics has shown, for a long time, how things can be interconnected, and how non-physical interaction can and does occur. So mass-consciousness is not exactly ruled out by science...but that leaves the glaring question of why aren't we conscious of it?

My intuition on this is that if mass-consciousness exists between humans, or non-physical communication exists at all, we are not "aware" of it because our conscious aspect has not evolved enough yet to do so. Our brains use electricity to transmit signals around, and this generates an EM field that expans out from your body. This field never actually falls to zero, over any distance, so no matter where I am...the EM "fingerprint" of your brain-activity exists around and through my brain as well. Because my brain also functions electrically, the EM field of your brain interacts with the functioning of my brain...although on a very small level! Theoretically this should be enough for intelligent communication to transmit over, but I think if it is possible we can not yet, or perhaps are only starting to, be able to consciously control this medium.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2794246 - 06/15/04 10:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

How to discover collective consciousness:

a)Shut up
b)Think a lot about TV and its effects
c)wait for it..
d)when "it" is there, don't mention it


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OfflineTodcasil
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2794348 - 06/15/04 10:35 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

the collective conscousness is probably the most vivid thing i have experienced while on shrooms/amanitas/cannabis  i have yet to experience it whilst on lsd or mdma, but that doesnt disprove it for me, im normally a lot more occupied on those substances.

since quiting cannabis the only thing i miss is really that detached feeling i can achieve, seperating my point of view from my body to expand it and see more at once.  it was doing this that i first realized the truth behind collective conscousness and earthly order.  while on cannabis i never got to universal order, being so amazed at human existance :smile:

on shroooms though, thats a whole nother story!

Tod Casils step by step procedure to discovering collective conscousness:

1)take roughly 3.5 grams of mushrooms, mix them in a really hot peppermint tea.
2)drink over a course of about 10 minutes, dont forget to eat the mushy husks!
3)better go lay down!
4)close your eyes until you have to vomit
5)turn off all music, go sit on your fence and open your eyes !  think about it (CC)!

well, maybe thats not so scientific, but it has worked for me.

peace!
:kodama:


--------------------
Men look at themselves and they see flawed humans, we look at women and we see perfect
GODDESSES
Women look at themselves and they seem utterly human, when looking at men they see proud
GODS.


~Casil



:cactus:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2794811 - 06/15/04 01:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

My experiences have led me to believe in the collective unconcious. I won't give examples because they were highly personal, subjective experiences that also seem to look stupid when you write them down. And yes, big holes could be poked in them because they were spiritual experiences not physical ones.


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Offlineergot
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2794867 - 06/15/04 01:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us 'universe', a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." - Albert Einstein

Awesome quote, eh? ...FROM EINSTEIN?!?!?! He was a genius of physics, and I truly believe he was also a mystic.

Anyways, look up some documentation on the "noosphere" and check out Princeton's GCP site: http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

-ergot


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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OfflineSource
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2794890 - 06/15/04 01:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Have you ever wondered who, where or what you would be now if your father never met your mother? How about if a different sperm of the millions present fertilized the egg that became your body? The answer, I think, is that you would still be 'you', only you would be looking and experiencing life through a different body.

There is something 'in' us that is universal...meaning it is the same in everything. Plants, insects, beavers, dolphins and humans are all different bodies through which universal consciousness experiences life.

Rather than having duplicates of this universal consciousness in every living thing, there is only one source of consciousness - one being expereiencing it all.

So how does one consciousness come to manifest so many different beliefs?

As I said, this one being experiences life in a vast variety of bodies, perceptions and expereiences. The brain is ever at work constructing a model of the universe based upon its own physical abilities and particular experiences. Since no two brains are identical and no one has exactly the same experiences in life this inevitably leads to different ideas and beliefs regarding what is real.

This pure consciousness (you) transcends space and time and is therefore inaccessable to the probings of science and logic. It is absolute subjectivity and therefore not an object that can be studied from the outside. Say a scientist wants to study consciousness itself (rather than the effects of consciousness in the world), where will he look to find it? He can crack open a head but all he'll find is a brain. The only place the scientist can find consciousness is in him/her self - and even 'that' isn't an object to be examined, it IS what is examining. It is the light that shines on all things. Can light illuminate itself?

"In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #2794923 - 06/15/04 01:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I see collective conciousness as being something that is programmed into DNA, the part of the evolutionary program that is hardwired, but as yet not understood by us. I also see it as something that is fine tuned thru our societal structures.
I like to think of it in terms of each person representing a neuron in a global brain. Peter Russel explains it quite magnificently in his book the global brain awakens, well worth checking out.
Whether this collective conciousness has a non-local aspect i am not sure, although i tend to think it probabaly has, that is just my particular prejudice.
However if the collective conciousness did indeed have a non-local aspect, there is a theory that conciousness emerges from complexity. If that is the case there could be an overarching sense of human awareness that emerges from the totality of all human conciousness and the ever increasing complexity of our interactions with each other. We could quite easily never even be aware of this awareness or this awareness could be what some people call god.
I would imagine however that this awareness would be similar to our individual awareness. Just the next level up in the infinitely repeating fractal of conciousness. Assuming that is the case that would explain the reason why all people dont hold the same belief systems or follow the same faith. Hardly any individuals hold the same beliefs in their own heads constantly, people can also be at war with themselves, get annoyed with themselves etc etc. So maybe our differences are a reflection of the stage the global brain is at. Probabaly an early teenager going through a tough time with alot of anger and confusion but also a hell of a lot of potential!!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (06/15/04 04:41 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: Swami]
    #2795095 - 06/15/04 03:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It is logically impossible to prove a negative.

I can prove that I'm NOT standing up while typing this post.

Please work on your logic.


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Offlineergot
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: Source]
    #2795113 - 06/15/04 03:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It's all about quantum nonlocality...


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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OfflineSource
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: ergot]
    #2795641 - 06/15/04 05:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quantum nonlocality definitely seems to verify, for me at least, the idea that all physical manifestations (i.e. elementary particles) are actually 'reflections' of a single object outside of the universe. Similar to the way a single disco-ball showers a room with thousands of moving patches of light.

What this says about consciousness...I have no idea.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2795763 - 06/15/04 06:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

mix is right, entertainment is our collective consciousness.

our consumption patterns are monitored, our desires calculated, reformatted and then broadcasted back to us. You want to see what our collective mind looks like? just look at the advertisements for any corporation that is targeting the mass markets.

Who has seen the new Adidas commercial for the Euros? fucking rights mate, top notch.

Vival Italia!


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineSource
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: Positronius]
    #2795781 - 06/15/04 06:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The media is deffinitely a reflection of our collective thoughts and desires, but I don't think consciousness is any of these things. Consciousness experiences thoughts and desires.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.


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OfflineApo Epicurus
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #19098142 - 11/07/13 12:40 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

Speculation: When two or more people are simultaneously in a certain state of consciousness, it sometimes appears that communication may occur without use, or with minimal use, of words or gestures; similar or identical complex conclusions are reached by multiple parties when another presents a simple implication or concept. I believe that this occurs not through what some would refer to as telepathy or “mind reading” (the human brain possesses neither the facilities necessary to broadcast or receive ideas without use of a physical medium: audible, tactile, or visible communication), but rather this occurs when two or more people are in similar enough states of consciousness, that they achieve a similar or identical thought process, resulting in similar or identical thoughts. When one person presents a concept that they entertained while in a higher state to two other people in the same state, not only are they going to approach the concept from the same point or perspective, but they will immediately understand how the speaker arrived at the concept and why. This accounts for appearances of telepathy, as it’s social effects mirror those of telepathy. Its not so much that collective consciousness is literally the combination of each individual consciousness, but rather the state which is experienced identically by all who achieve it. This accounts for ego death, but avoids any argument from mysticism.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #19099013 - 11/07/13 06:52 AM (8 years, 30 days ago)

How does the collective consciousness work with ants? That might be your clue.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: Icelander]
    #19100040 - 11/07/13 01:37 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Fear of moans. :yesnod:


--------------------


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Invisiblecez
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,809
Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: Icelander]
    #19101525 - 11/07/13 06:15 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
How does the collective consciousness work with ants? That might be your clue.




Concise :thumbup:


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Invisiblemutantmushroom
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: cez]
    #19101530 - 11/07/13 06:17 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

The internet is a collective conciseness.:mmmkay:


--------------------
When you put the best effort you can into something, you’re bound to get something good out of it



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: Source]
    #19101545 - 11/07/13 06:20 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Have you ever wondered who, where or what you would be now if your father never met your mother?




No because the question does not make a lick of sense.


--------------------


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Invisiblecez
Registered: 08/04/09
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19101588 - 11/07/13 06:28 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

:lol:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: cez]
    #19101606 - 11/07/13 06:33 PM (8 years, 29 days ago)

Of course it is humorous.

It is akin to asking where my famous chili would be if I had never mixed beans, beef, peppers, tomatoes and onions; and cooked the ingredients to sublime perfection.



--------------------


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19104455 - 11/08/13 11:04 AM (8 years, 29 days ago)

The way it is worded comes off that way, but the question is hinting at a huge mystery.

Your world-famous chili is not exactly the same because it does not possess a perspective of it's own.

Why do "I" experience life through my eyes? 
If we have no "souls" (of which I believe you have little doubt), why does this compartmentalized piece of awareness seem to belong to me and me alone? 
It's mind boggling IMO.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: kaiowas]
    #19106142 - 11/08/13 05:02 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

The only explanation that makes sense to me is that the collective consciousness is the only thing that really does exist; everything else, including the material world, is a sophisticated set of nested illusions that the collective consciousness dreamed up out of boredom. The prime illusion, and the one upon which all others are predicated, is that separation exists.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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OfflineFishOilTheKid
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: viktor]
    #19106350 - 11/08/13 05:47 PM (8 years, 28 days ago)

:awesomenod:


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: FishOilTheKid]
    #19112264 - 11/09/13 11:35 PM (8 years, 27 days ago)

It's a bit subtle but if you give it a chance isn't it clear what is outside and what is inside yourself is really the same thing? In the same inner space? It's not salvation but it's worth noting if you're questioning existence.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE


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OfflinejackSpearows
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: circastes]
    #19112550 - 11/10/13 12:43 AM (8 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
It's a bit subtle but if you give it a chance isn't it clear what is outside and what is inside yourself is really the same thing? In the same inner space? It's not salvation but it's worth noting if you're questioning existence.



I can definitely distinguish between the inner and outer.  Mainly because doing that you can separate your fantasy/illusions verse the actual reality of what is going down.

I think the whole inner outer external internal notion has to be worded more thoroughly.  The common terms just don't really cut it, there needs to be a common understanding with that that is more precise and elaborate.  Instead of just inner and outer or the external and the internal.

... Well I don't mean to call it your illusion but just your own created imagining. ... Actually thinking that through some more gets interesting to me.  "Your illusion".  As in the internal experience that is the default with us.  Hows your illusion ?  Your world ?

The inner is an imagining ability that can be spewed out in the external environment with other external means.  So it's not necessarily illusion.  But there's obviously big time potential for illusion.  :crazy2:


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Offlineabsols
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Re: how can collective consciousness exist? [Re: jackSpearows]
    #19119087 - 11/11/13 07:23 AM (8 years, 26 days ago)

it doesn't exist

powerful others force rule our beings life while obviously any thought is meaning nothing or objects realities so conscious realization of individuals is always about something else

we are mortals we cant mean ourselves conscious in truth


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