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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2793717 - 06/15/04 12:22 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

BTW, i'm still waiting for the libertarian heavyweights on this board to adress the main point of my original post:

Me too.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Xlea321]
    #2793972 - 06/15/04 03:35 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It's been done and shown for the foolishness it is.

And it was damn nice of you to prove pinkys point for him. It merely confirms what is obvious to most.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2794504 - 06/15/04 09:33 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It's been done and shown for the foolishness it is.

Yet another lie. Like Doc says - we're still waiting.

And it was damn nice of you to prove pinkys point for him

And I'm still waiting for either one of you two ladies to provide an example of a lie I've told. I won't hold my breath.

It merely confirms what is obvious to most.

How do you figure? I've got a 5 shroom rating, where are these "most" you refer to? Is it you and that mouse you've got in your pocket?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Xlea321]
    #2794525 - 06/15/04 09:40 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
BTW, i'm still waiting for the libertarian heavyweights on this board to adress the main point of my original post:

Me too.



Although I wouldn't be so arrogant as to consider myself a libertarian heavyweight, if you looked through this thread(and had the least bit of honesty) you'd see that I already addressed this.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: silversoul7]
    #2794542 - 06/15/04 09:45 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

So Doc hasn't any honesty either?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Xlea321]
    #2794591 - 06/15/04 10:04 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

He does, actually, but if you looked through this thread instead of making such ignorant statements, you'd see that I replied to the exact same post that you quoted.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2794615 - 06/15/04 10:13 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)


but why do people voluntarily vote for fascists, communists and
socialists if they are given a choice including libertarians? Is
this not evidence that individuals tend to make poor decisions?


To be quite blunt, a lot of people are idiots who make poor
decisions. While that statement could be construed as justification
for heavily controlling Man to ensure he does "the right thing", I
assure you, it is not. Man is in misery when he is controlled,
and Man destroys himself when he has freedom. Neither option
is good, but I much prefer the second one.

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OfflineDoctorJ
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2794906 - 06/15/04 11:49 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

now that is an honest answer. I appreciate that.

my position is that the choice does not have to be binary. we can find a compromise somehow. reason and science will find a way.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Xlea321]
    #2795501 - 06/15/04 02:51 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You, quite honestly, appear to have no clue as to the meaning of the word "honesty". If you do, you certainly don't practice it.

Edited: For a stupid spelling error. Noted as such for honesty.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (06/15/04 05:11 PM)

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Xlea321]
    #2795536 - 06/15/04 03:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I still think that a society built upon the foundation of an ideology based in mutual consent would only work in reality if everyone, or at least the majority, mutually consented to such a society. Which they typically do not.

Therefore, politically active libertarians are kind of hypocrites. They want to force everyone to be mutually amicable in their dealings with eachother. This is a paradox.

Also, the libertarian party could be viewed as an an organization against organizations. This is also a paradox.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2795894 - 06/15/04 05:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

DoctorJ writes:

I still think that a society built upon the foundation of an ideology based in mutual consent would only work in reality if everyone, or at least the majority, mutually consented to such a society. Which they typically do not.

You appear to be confusing Libertarianism with Anarchy. Libertarians recognize that there are people who would in the absence of constraint initiate force against others. This is why Libertarians recognize the need for limited government.

Therefore, politically active libertarians are kind of hypocrites. They want to force everyone to be mutually amicable in their dealings with eachother. This is a paradox.

It is not a paradox at all, because Libertarians most emphatically do not want to force anyone to do anything other than to refrain from initiating force. Libertarians don't care if people want to be amicable to each other or to be curmudgeonly misanthropes. Libertarians don't care if you choose to deal with anyone at all or if you want to lock yourself in your room for the rest of your life.

Also, the libertarian party could be viewed as an an organization against organizations. This is also a paradox.

Sophistry. Libertarians are of course not against organizations.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Xlea321]
    #2795935 - 06/15/04 05:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Now, lets dispense with your girlish hysterics...

That's rich, coming from someone who habitually posts hysterically exaggerated proclamations about the "race to the bottom" and people working 100 hours a week for a bowl of soup. Not to mention the mythical ten year old Chinese girls (China is still not considered a Libertarian country last time I checked, by the way) working sixteen hours a day for ten cents.

Here is the lie you posted to which i was responding:

"And yet you would defend to your last breath the right of corporations to make children work in desperately unsafe conditions, to intimidate them and refuse them the right to form a union and to pay them as little as they can get away with."

None of the quotes of mine you have provided show that I have defended the "right" of corporations to make children work in desperately unsafe conditions -- or even to make children work at all. None of the quotes you provided show I have defended the "right" of corporations to prevent employees from unionizing, or the "right" of corporations to intimidate their employees.

BTW, I've saved a copy of this post in case you get up to your old tricks of deleting my posts.

My "old tricks" of deleting your posts? As you and I both know, I've deleted exactly two of your posts after repeatedly warning you that if you persisted in derailing the thread by posting irrelevant and unfounded accusations against other members said accusations would be deleted. As you also know, before taking this action I had informed the administration of this action and explained the rationale behind it.

Suck it up and move on.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2797315 - 06/15/04 11:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Do you think the bizarre brand of far right libertarian "thought" pushed by the gentlemen on this board represents anything like genuine libertarian thought tho Doc?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Phred]
    #2797316 - 06/15/04 11:47 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Weak.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Phred]
    #2797929 - 06/16/04 03:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:

Nicely stated.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Xlea321]
    #2797930 - 06/16/04 03:31 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Weak.



:rotfl:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2798536 - 06/16/04 10:00 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

:crymeariver:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Phred]
    #2798796 - 06/16/04 11:21 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Here is the lie you posted to which i was responding

I'm sure you understand I can't let you off with this blatant lie pink.

You have repeatedly, aggressively defended the right of western corporations to exploit third world labour. If you are unaware that children are involved in third world labour, that conditions are frequently unsafe, that union organisers are imtimidated then your grasp of the subject is even weaker than your grasp on WMD.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Posts: 8,846
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Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: Xlea321]
    #2798919 - 06/16/04 12:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Do you think the bizarre brand of far right libertarian "thought" pushed by the gentlemen on this board represents anything like genuine libertarian thought tho Doc?




I think that they think exactly like libertarians, which is the problem. They are ideological purists. They have become so attached to their position that they have become unwilling to admit that their position is not right in all situations.

Even when shown evidence that their methods are not always effective, they will cling to them like religious dogma. They have become more interested in proving their point of view than figuring out what actually works.

Not only that, but if I suggest something that even remotely conflicts with just one of their views, they immediately brand me the exact opposite of what they are- ie, a totalitarian fascist. They seem to think that the world is black and white, that there are no positions in between positions.

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Why I'm not a libertarian [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2799018 - 06/16/04 12:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Not only that, but if I suggest something that even remotely conflicts with just one of their views, they immediately brand me the exact opposite of what they are- ie, a totalitarian fascist. They seem to think that the world is black and white, that there are no positions in between positions.




Hyperbole...gotta love it.

If you tell me you happen to be in favor of government regulation in some areas, no legitimate Libertarian or rational human for that matter will call you anything near a totalitarian. However, you originally proposed a means of giving government total control over the workplace. It took a few pages to get you to clarify(or amend...) your theory and state that it would simply tell you all the jobs you were capable of and not what you HAD to do. IF you had been descriptive to begin with, and I must admit I think you were tuning your plan as you went along, there would have been no problem and noone would have labeled you a true fascist...merely a proponent of a significantly mediocre idea.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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