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Lynnch
Strangerer



Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 8,010
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This is an interesting discussion. I had heard of the cow farts thing, but never really considered how livestock could be a carbon sink. One other aspect is that we can't eat grass, and those lands may not be suitable for farming, so livestock is a way to create useful food from that source.
Really indicative of the large-system complexities involved.
Like, fracking is bad, fracking liquids getting into the ground water is real bad... but... burning natural gas emits less carbon than say, coal, so, in the sort term, burning natural gas is a good stop-gap strategy.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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I agree that livestock are being mismanaged and that there are numerous environmental issues with factory farms. Climate change just isn't really one of them and, of course, just because something is terribly mismanaged doesn't mean that it has to continue to be.
In any event, fossil carbon is the primary issue. It took an incredibly long time and very specific conditions for it to accumulate. We can't really predict when there will be another carboniferous period and frankly, I wouldn't bet on it. As such, the fossil carbon we emit into the atmosphere will stay there more or less indefinitely. This is the primary driver of climate change.
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Tulipslave
Homo sapiens sapiens, lol

Registered: 07/25/17
Posts: 11,968
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Quote:
r3volution.gurl said:
Quote:
Tulipslave said:
Quote:
r3volution.gurl said:
Quote:
budmanman said: 18 thousand years ago Canada was under a mile tall sheet of ice. Is Canada under a mile tall sheet of ice now? No boom take that global warming denialists. If the Earth wasn't warming Canada would be under ice. Global warming proven
We aren't in an ice age though..
Actually........we are nearing the end of a warming cycle and on the cusp of entering into another ice age. Estimates have ranged from 200-1000 years or so. However, human caused effects, and now Tongas last eruption, are having effects on everything researchers couldn't have imagined.
And the poles are shifting. Which is often another factor in the warming/cooling phases the planet experiences naturally every several thousand years.
Again, we aren't in an ice age. And we aren't nearing the end of a warming cycle because we are projected to gain at least 5F by the end of the century. Endings aren't ever on a rising trend, I mean I thought that was common sense.
I also already mentioned natural cycles take thousands of years. So your 200-1000 years isn't like a magic start of ice age average temperatures. We terraformed half the planet and there is more man made mass than natural mass on the planet. We were in control of this ship and have already crashed it.. it's over. Humans won't exist in any ice age in the future.
You guys keep believing fairytales though.
RevGurl. This is why I do not like you as a poster. You don't read the words I write, you read the words you want to read.
Nowhere did I say we were in an ice age. Please reread the very first sentence i typed.
I really think you need some academic learning, not youtube/internet learning.
I can't link you to a scholarly article because what I'm saying is basic knowledge in the anthropology/geologic historical fields. We have been in a warming cycle for many thousands of years. All the written history of humans has taken place within this warming cycle. That's 8-12k + years.
So yes. We are nearing the end phase a warming cycle and 200-1000 years from entering into the next ice age.
Maybe you seem to think that ice ages inherently mean cold and global warming inherently means hot. This is not true. As the cycles shift, and especially when the poles shift, which IS what is currently also happening, both warming cycles and cold cycles are noted by EXTREME weather events, both hot and cold.
It's kind of like how Greenland is actually covered in ice and Iceland isn't completely covered in ice.
Names and words can be deceiving.
Please do some research outside of youtube and the internet.
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Tulipslave
Homo sapiens sapiens, lol

Registered: 07/25/17
Posts: 11,968
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Y'all like soil? Check out P.A. Yeoman.
Or Rudolf Steiner and Ehrenfried Pfieffer, without all the wooey religious babble.
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r3volution.gurl



Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,359
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Tulipslave said: Actually........we are nearing the end of a warming cycle and on the cusp of entering into another ice age. Estimates have ranged from 200-1000 years or so. However, human caused effects, and now Tongas last eruption, are having effects on everything researchers couldn't have imagined.
And the poles are shifting. Which is often another factor in the warming/cooling phases the planet experiences naturally every several thousand years.
Again, we aren't in an ice age. And we aren't nearing the end of a warming cycle because we are projected to gain at least 5F by the end of the century. Endings aren't ever on a rising trend, I mean I thought that was common sense.
I also already mentioned natural cycles take thousands of years. So your 200-1000 years isn't like a magic start of ice age average temperatures. We terraformed half the planet and there is more man made mass than natural mass on the planet. We were in control of this ship and have already crashed it.. it's over. Humans won't exist in any ice age in the future.
You guys keep believing fairytales though.
RevGurl. This is why I do not like you as a poster. You don't read the words I write, you read the words you want to read.
Nowhere did I say we were in an ice age. Please reread the very first sentence i typed.
I really think you need some academic learning, not youtube/internet learning.
I can't link you to a scholarly article because what I'm saying is basic knowledge in the anthropology/geologic historical fields. We have been in a warming cycle for many thousands of years. All the written history of humans has taken place within this warming cycle. That's 8-12k years.
So yes. We are nearing the end phase a warming cycle and 200-1000 years from entering into the next ice age.
Maybe you seem to think that ice ages inherently mean cold and global warming inherently means hot. This is not true. As the cycles shift, and especially when the poles shift, which IS what is currently also happening, both warming cycles and cold cycles are noted by EXTREME weather events, both hot and cold.
It's kind of like how Greenland is actually covered in ice and Iceland isn't completely covered in ice.
Names and words can be deceiving.
Please do some research outside of youtube and the internet.
Excuse me?
Are we in an ice age right now? No. I was responding to budmanman.
I know what an ice age means and I know we are in a warming period. What we are seeing today isn't apart of the warming cycle from pole shifts and sun ray changes though. It's very clearly because of the greenhouse gas effect human's caused.
Again, the global average temperature is on a rising trend. It's common sense to understand despite cold and hot weather events, if the warming period was nearing an end it wouldn't be on a rising trend this quickly.
Also, Greenland ice is melting so that was a dumb point to bring up on your part.
I've looked at scientist's research. I actually can get direct answers from scientists at the forefront of these issues like Guy in the OP I posted.
Just agree to disagree instead of trying to insult me and repeat the exact same thing over and over. I understood exactly what you wrote from the beginning.
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  "Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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He's probably just annoyed at the way you speak like an expert on subjects that you have a novice understanding of. That's cool that you have access to experts, though.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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r3volution.gurl



Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,359
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: I agree that livestock are being mismanaged and that there are numerous environmental issues with factory farms. Climate change just isn't really one of them and, of course, just because something is terribly mismanaged doesn't mean that it has to continue to be.
In any event, fossil carbon is the primary issue. It took an incredibly long time and very specific conditions for it to accumulate. We can't really predict when there will be another carboniferous period and frankly, I wouldn't bet on it. As such, the fossil carbon we emit into the atmosphere will stay there more or less indefinitely. This is the primary driver of climate change.
Fact of the matter is, livestock mismanagement isn't going to change unfortunately. And as it stands, it's causing more harm than it benefits the environment.
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  "Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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That's debatable
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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r3volution.gurl



Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,359
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: He's probably just annoyed at the way you speak like an expert on subjects that you have a novice understanding of. That's cool that you have access to experts, though.
Lol I have a novice understanding because I don't waste my time going into detail with people who want to believe what they want to believe anyways?
I'm not a novice in environmental science. I know nearly everything I say on this subject is correct or I wouldn't say it or say I'm not sure.
Sort of like how I explained to you about populations of livestock vs. Wild grazing herbivores.
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  "Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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r3volution.gurl



Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,359
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: That's debatable
It's really not.
We can't sustain billions of animals with the *natural resources on this planet currently. That's why we are feeding them what we are.
We also can't sustain the human population to consume meat everyday without factory farms.
Methane traps more eat than carbon dioxide.
Sure, if we cut down meat consumption, got rid of factory farming, what you say would be true.
Majority of animal agriculture is factory farming and you pretend it isn't. At least your points do.
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  "Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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What is it that you think you explained?
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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r3volution.gurl



Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,359
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: What is it that you think you explained?
Current livestock populations are an issue to the environment and because of our current climate change situation, they help speed up warming and ecosystem collapse.
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  "Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Quote:
r3volution.gurl said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: That's debatable
It's really not.
We can't sustain billions of animals with the *natural resources on this planet currently. That's why we are feeding them what we are.
We also can't sustain the human population to consume meat everyday without factory farms.
Methane traps more eat than carbon dioxide.
Sure, if we cut down meat consumption, got rid of factory farming, what you say would be true.
Majority of animal agriculture is factory farming and you pretend it isn't. At least your points do.
No, they're fed grain in order to increase fat content and total mass in order that they be more profitable per unit. There us plenty of marginal land suitable for grazers. Many more than exist currently.
Methane also rapidly degrades into carbon dioxide via interactions with hydroxide ions
I hate factory farming. I'm pretty sure I made that clear. You seem to have a hard time comprehending the difference between what I advocate for and modern agriculture in it's current incarnation. I guess it must be all that expertise fouling your ability to think critically.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Ah, I see where you're getting confused. You can't distinguish between poorly designed management systems and absolute population numbers. That's ok, I'm sure you could understand it if you wanted to.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Lynnch
Strangerer



Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 8,010
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I mean, we could look at a case study. Cutting and burning down the Amazon in Brazil to clear space for cattle ranching definitely ain't good for climate change. But that's a two-parter, it's more the deforestation that's the issue than the livestock.
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r3volution.gurl



Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,359
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
r3volution.gurl said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: That's debatable
It's really not.
We can't sustain billions of animals with the *natural resources on this planet currently. That's why we are feeding them what we are.
We also can't sustain the human population to consume meat everyday without factory farms.
Methane traps more eat than carbon dioxide.
Sure, if we cut down meat consumption, got rid of factory farming, what you say would be true.
Majority of animal agriculture is factory farming and you pretend it isn't. At least your points do.
No, they're fed grain in order to increase fat content and total mass in order that they be more profitable per unit. There us plenty of marginal land suitable for grazers. Many more than exist currently.
Again, we would have to cut down meat consumption because with current meat consumption in for example North America, we won't be able to sustain livestock. This article below explains this as countries around the world are quickly developing and so are their consumption levels.
https://ourworldindata.org/agricultural-land-by-global-diets
Quote:
Methane also rapidly degrades into carbon dioxide via interactions with hydroxide ions
I hate factory farming. I'm pretty sure I made that clear. You seem to have a hard time comprehending the difference between what I advocate for and modern agriculture in it's current incarnation. I guess it must be all that expertise fouling your ability to think critically.
What you're advocating for is great. The problem I have is wild grazing herbivore populations are better and you're hellbent on livestock.
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  "Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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r3volution.gurl



Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,359
Loc: Canada
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Re: Climate Change [Re: Lynnch] 1
#27906629 - 08/17/22 11:05 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lynnch said: I mean, we could look at a case study. Cutting and burning down the Amazon in Brazil to clear space for cattle ranching definitely ain't good for climate change. But that's a two-parter, it's more the deforestation that's the issue than the livestock.
Yes. That kind of goes against what ballsalsa has been trying to claim. That we already have enough land for livestock to eliminate factory farming. If that's the case then why deforest in the first place.
Food for thought.
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  "Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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Tulipslave
Homo sapiens sapiens, lol

Registered: 07/25/17
Posts: 11,968
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Quote:
r3volution.gurl said:
Quote:
Tulipslave said: Actually........we are nearing the end of a warming cycle and on the cusp of entering into another ice age. Estimates have ranged from 200-1000 years or so. However, human caused effects, and now Tongas last eruption, are having effects on everything researchers couldn't have imagined.
And the poles are shifting. Which is often another factor in the warming/cooling phases the planet experiences naturally every several thousand years.
Again, we aren't in an ice age. And we aren't nearing the end of a warming cycle because we are projected to gain at least 5F by the end of the century. Endings aren't ever on a rising trend, I mean I thought that was common sense.
I also already mentioned natural cycles take thousands of years. So your 200-1000 years isn't like a magic start of ice age average temperatures. We terraformed half the planet and there is more man made mass than natural mass on the planet. We were in control of this ship and have already crashed it.. it's over. Humans won't exist in any ice age in the future.
You guys keep believing fairytales though.
RevGurl. This is why I do not like you as a poster. You don't read the words I write, you read the words you want to read.
Nowhere did I say we were in an ice age. Please reread the very first sentence i typed.
I really think you need some academic learning, not youtube/internet learning.
I can't link you to a scholarly article because what I'm saying is basic knowledge in the anthropology/geologic historical fields. We have been in a warming cycle for many thousands of years. All the written history of humans has taken place within this warming cycle. That's 8-12k years.
So yes. We are nearing the end phase a warming cycle and 200-1000 years from entering into the next ice age.
Maybe you seem to think that ice ages inherently mean cold and global warming inherently means hot. This is not true. As the cycles shift, and especially when the poles shift, which IS what is currently also happening, both warming cycles and cold cycles are noted by EXTREME weather events, both hot and cold.
It's kind of like how Greenland is actually covered in ice and Iceland isn't completely covered in ice.
Names and words can be deceiving.
Please do some research outside of youtube and the internet.
Excuse me?
Are we in an ice age right now? No. I was responding to budmanman.
I know what an ice age means and I know we are in a warming period. What we are seeing today isn't apart of the warming cycle from pole shifts and sun ray changes though. It's very clearly because of the greenhouse gas effect human's caused.
Again, the global average temperature is on a rising trend. It's common sense to understand despite cold and hot weather events, if the warming period was nearing an end it wouldn't be on a rising trend this quickly.
Also, Greenland ice is melting so that was a dumb point to bring up on your part.
I've looked at scientist's research. I actually can get direct answers from scientists at the forefront of these issues like Guy in the OP I posted.
Just agree to disagree instead of trying to insult me and repeat the exact same thing over and over. I understood exactly what you wrote from the beginning.</font>
RevGurl. It's really hard to converse with you when you take constructive criticism as an attack
This is not the first time you've taken offense to non-offensive comments.
You quoted me and replied to me. What does that have to do with budmanmans comments?
I strongly suggest you do some research into the historical/geologic data on the matter of global warming and cooling. Rapid shifts and extremes are a tale-tale sign of the Flux. Humans have greatly exacerbated an existing issue (or phenomenon.)
You also don't seem too open to hearing other sides, yourself, so I'd be wary of lashing out at others for not being very open minded.
It's not us and them. All is one.
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r3volution.gurl



Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,359
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Tulipslave said: You quoted me and replied to me. What does that have to do with budmanmans comments?
Yeah, after you quoted and replied to my reply to budmanman.
Do you have issues agreeing to disagree?
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  "Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Climate Change [Re: Lynnch]
#27906671 - 08/17/22 11:50 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah, deforestation is bad. Livestock should be grazed on marginal land
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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