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Swami
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Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago?
#2790112 - 06/13/04 02:51 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I would contend that since the laws of physics have not changed, the ancient miraculous stories are due to superstition, ignorance, and exaggerated or misquoted story-telling.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (06/13/04 02:59 PM)
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Shroomism
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Re: Why did "real" miracle only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2790117 - 06/13/04 02:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Agreed.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: Why did "real" miracle only happen long ago? [Re: Shroomism]
#2790127 - 06/13/04 03:00 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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WTF? Shroomism agrees with no talk of Elohim and such... IT"S A MIRACLE!
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin
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Re: Why did "real" miracle only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2790136 - 06/13/04 03:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Stranger things have been known to happen
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Droz
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2790215 - 06/13/04 03:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Now are minds are filled with television, music, and tons of material things. We are no longer in battles with superstition. Science has made it's way to the top as we study the reasons we see these things in our brains. Swami I still see tons of that superstition all over the internet. Do you think we are at a greater step in life knowing that it is only superstition?
-------------------- Evolution of Time.
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filthysock
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2790221 - 06/13/04 03:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree, but I do think we have the ability to do amazing things that humankind as a whole havent really dug into yet... such as telepathy, astral projection, healing etc.
-------------------- Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!
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Ravus
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2790233 - 06/13/04 03:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Why did "real" miracles happen long ago?
Because it was easier to fool the people
The true miracles occur in the mind- astral projection, healing yourself of a disease that is fatal the majority of the time, ceasing all negative thoughts, etc. Most other "miracles" are rubbish
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Droz]
#2790242 - 06/13/04 03:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Do you think we are at a greater step in life knowing that it is only superstition?
Only if we value truth; I certainly do.
Clouds have been made to rain by understanding the mechanism; not by dancing and shaking rattles.
Why did the last 7.0 earthquake in California kill only a dozen or so while similar quakes have killed upwards of 20,000 in Iran and elsewhere? Because of the understanding and application of structural engineering.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Ravus]
#2790248 - 06/13/04 03:59 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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healing yourself of a disease that is fatal the majority of the time
Many diseases are brought about by, not by pathogens, but by doing the wrong things so that by stopping them the dis-ease goes away. No great mystery there.
As I have mentioned before (this is summer repeat season), there are no documented cases of someone healing themselves of hereditary baldness, for example. If it was about Power of Mind, this should be much easier to "cure" than cancer.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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kaiowas
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2790257 - 06/13/04 04:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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true, but what about the ideas inbetween the mosquito-tellings?
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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Ravus
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2790293 - 06/13/04 04:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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So curing yourself of cancer isn't miraculous? (I use the word disease loosely)
Sometimes it's only a matter of changing your lifestyle or getting medication, but such as cases where people go into a church and get healed by a priest, and their disease miraculously goes away, would be different in certain cases. Not to say it's by any supernatural force, my belief is the subconscious controls the body and therefore, if you can believe enough in being healed or such, the subconscious will take care of the disease much quicker and more efficiently.
I would also guess that, as we learn more about psychology and the subconscious, nowadays miracles will become less and less miracle-like, just as many other things that once seemed like miracles, such as rain and gravity, became more mundane as they were understood
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Zero7a1
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2790454 - 06/13/04 05:38 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I guess jesus can walk across cyberspace as well... right?
-------------------- What?
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Food
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2792180 - 06/14/04 11:09 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well my Dad has this book from 1940 that on the back has a quote about this guy who prayed for this chick who had been hit by a truck carrying hot asphalt and broke one of her legs - it broke off totally and when reset was fractured in seven places and was three and a half inches shorter+ she had third degree burns all over her body - she was completely healed . I know its like over six decades ago - but its still not really 'ancient' per say .
-------------------- --------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2792225 - 06/14/04 11:22 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Miracles happen every day. When I won a 15 year struggle with alcoholism I felt that I had experienced a miracle as it happened in one stroke not over time with professional counseling.
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silversoul7
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2792231 - 06/14/04 11:24 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Every couple months, some Mexican or Italian finds the face of the Virgin Mary on a Dorito or something.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: silversoul7]
#2792643 - 06/14/04 02:23 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I saw Carlos Casteneda's face on a Dorito...does that count?
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2792706 - 06/14/04 02:49 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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While I am glad for you and sure that it was a personal triumph of the highest order; refusing to imbibe any more poison does not violate natural law.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
#2792709 - 06/14/04 02:50 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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The book fails to tell you that the girl's mother had prayed for a safe journey...
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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CJay
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2794013 - 06/15/04 04:51 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Just because the mechanism for healing or what might have once been considered a miracle can be explained, it doesn't make it less miraculous, it just seems that way. Everytime you hit the keyboard in front of you it is a miracle, sure science has got reasonably good at explaining how the process of electrical impulses passes from the brain to the arm and hand muscles etc. However there is no answer as to where the decision comes from - Where the spirit is that demands the release of charge. Or how it is able to exist. And in fact biological life itself and the consciousnes inherrent in it is pretty damn miraculous. Probably as time goes on we will gain more and more understanding and as we slowly come to grips with this hyper-technology we call life, we will make more and more miracles mundane. If you could take say an Mp3 player 500 yrs back in history you would blow people's minds. They would either think it was one of God's miracles or one of the devil's......I think filling it with hymns might hopefully keep the time traveller safe! Anyway the point is that technology not understood is magick, but with knowledge everything can be understood. The event in question does not change, but the perception does. However I would agree that a lot of the jesus style miracles of old are probably just good PR or excessive cases of chinse whispers and exageration. The fact that we are here talking about it, living and breathing and thinking, having arisen from increasing complexity and the birth of biological life itself. That is proof enough of miracles for me. Actually the fact that anything exists at all is. These probably don't count as "real" miracles though...which I take to mean Jesus types touching blind people fleetingly and restoring their sight etc. But they are pretty real miracles.
Edited by CJay (06/15/04 04:58 AM)
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Food
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: CJay]
#2794210 - 06/15/04 07:47 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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CJay Said "However there is no answer as to where the decision comes from - Where the spirit is that demands the release of charge. Or how it is able to exist.
And in fact biological life itself and the consciousnes inherrent in it is pretty damn miraculous."
- Nice .
And swami - haha - is that really all you have to say . Actually I could name hundeds more miraculous happenings .Here is a mild one : My Mum had damaged her coxyx - dont know how to spell that - its the tail bone at the end of the spine . She was pretty annoyed for a while, what with sitting down bing a bitch an all then she went to some christian meeting this man prayed for healing and she got this warm feeling and was healed - it made her pretty happy . That was probably about a decade ago .
Actually that book with the aforemetioned girl healing thing is actually pretty cool , it talks about how faith isnt intellectual belief . Also about the chinese whispers theory and stuff - yeah I can imagine that happening - exxageration and all, however -also in the book is this story about this woman who asks to be healed of "shrivelled legs" whatever exactly that is and well the guy says no - then ages later when she realises spiritual healing is what its really about she gets healed - the legs literally grow to normal size and she can walk again - and loads of people around her go like "wow" and rush to this wooden cross and ask for forgiveness . Well the book also has a letter from the woman who was healed thanking God and the dude who prayed for her .So I mean if it were exxxagerated then the woman wouldnt have written about the same thing right. And plus the guy that wrote this book has this ring of honour to the way he writes - like he wouldnt distort shit you know - really kind of not "self righteous" .
So seriuosly swami go look up stuff about miracles today - try to debunk it - you seem to be of the reductionalist persuation as I once was, well anyway man dont let me annoy you - I'm only responding appropriatly to what you posted .
Peace out dudes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its called "The Real Faith" by Something or other Price .
-------------------- --------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
#2794301 - 06/15/04 08:21 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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A nice warm story is not the same as before and after x-rays with an affadavit by a doctor. Why is basic evidence so hard to come by?
So seriuosly swami go look up stuff about miracles today - try to debunk it I have looked and did a lot of research on Lourdes, France where millions go each year to be healed by the holy waters and their faith. Seems the cases of remission and spontaneous healing there are actually slightly lower, percentage-wise, than people who do not go. That about sums it up.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Seuss
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2794328 - 06/15/04 08:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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> Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago?
New management has a hands off approach?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Food
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Seuss]
#2794837 - 06/15/04 11:21 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well as to X-rays, they were taken before and after the broken leg - much to the amazement of the doctors . Oh and I meant to say that the letter was about the shrivelled legs not the broken leg . And as for Lourdes - why must this be the place by which the possibility of any miracles being done is tested ? And as for nice warm stories I do find it rather impossible to beleive that my Mum was faking it . But basically until you see it happen or rather even until it happens to you - swami, well until then you can ignore as many references to modern day miracles as you wish . The fact however remains that many honest people in christian cirlces claim to have seen miraculous occurances . I have proved nothing however and realise such, but wish to point out that a great many seemingly impossible things have resulted from prayer . I think something like christianheroes.com has some interesting stuff , maybe - cant remember . Anyway what I think I was trying to say before is that when you automatically disregard christ related stuff off the bat, as I certainly used to when I was atheist, then your not truly being open minded . However my stories are rather meaningless out of the rich contexts that they exist in, in my world(like the rest of that book , and like knowing my Mum etc. ) try to let go of grudges against this or that if you are really trying to search for truth . Just some thoughts - maybe it makes sense - who knows . PEACE
-------------------- --------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
Edited by Food (06/15/04 11:28 AM)
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
#2795689 - 06/15/04 03:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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And as for Lourdes - why must this be the place by which the possibility of any miracles being done is tested ?
Use some logic here. It is not that it MUST be the place; however it certainly IS a good test bed for the power of faith and miracles. People travel hundreds or thousands of miles and spend their precious vacation time for the chance of a healing. The large numbers of visitors and number of years that this has occurred SHOULD show some positive anomolies IF there was anything to it.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Food
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2795874 - 06/15/04 04:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Swami - you amaze me - really . You sound so logical and open minded with the way you use words then you go and say stuff like that . Think about it dude a phenomenon is a phenomenon - people flocking to a place doesnt make it an authentic spiritual pilgrimage or place or whatever .
As I said about what that book book says - faith isnt intellectual belief - affirming over and over that a thing is such and such doesnt make it so - even if you do it in the name of 'X' - you know .
-------------------- --------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
#2795891 - 06/15/04 05:06 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Swami - you amaze me - really . *Swami takes a deep bow and blushes* Gosh, thanks!
Think about it dude a phenomenon is a phenomenon - people flocking to a place doesnt make it an authentic spiritual pilgrimage or place or whatever . I did think about it. Why is a random anecdote more valid than a large-scale on-going experiment? The data is certainly better collected, easier to analyze and more statistically significant than a sample-size of one.
As I said about what that book book says Well the little book book can say say whatever the author wants it to say.
Perhaps you will (but I highly doubt it) craft a real-world test of what you learned from the book to demonstrate the author's premise.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Deiymiyan
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2795958 - 06/15/04 05:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I would contend that since the laws of physics have not changed, the ancient miraculous stories are due to superstition, ignorance, and exaggerated or misquoted story-telling. I'm surprised Swami.. It most certainly could be possible... but, since none of us here can really recall that far back in time, you're statement is simply an assumption... no more, no less. Notwithstanding, "miraculous feats" have occurred 'back in the day', that still modern technology, as powerful as it is, cannot reproduce... 'They' still have no idea how amazing structures such as the Pyramids and Stonehenge were put together... With a significant lack in technology . Maybe 'back in the day', there were some smarter individuals? Could it be, that, they used basic tools to make unbelievable things come true? Perhaps miracles were once available..
-------------------- Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..
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daba
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2795968 - 06/15/04 05:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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You are right Swami.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Deiymiyan]
#2795975 - 06/15/04 05:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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you're statement is simply an assumption... no more, no less. The word "contend" appears on my screen and in my statement. Is it invisible on yours?
'They' still have no idea how amazing structures such as the Pyramids and Stonehenge were put together... Modern skyscrapers are far more amazing structures.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Deiymiyan
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2796004 - 06/15/04 05:56 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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you're statement is simply an assumption... no more, no less. The word "contend" appears on my screen and in my statement. Is it invisible on yours? ------------------------ Fair enough.. English is NOT my mother tongue. 'They' still have no idea how amazing structures such as the Pyramids and Stonehenge were put together... Modern skyscrapers are far more amazing structures. ------------------------ YES !! I agree with you 110% ! Those ARE amazing structures! I revel at the sight of many modern day structures! However.. Perhaps something was invisible on YOUR screen!? >> .. With a significant lack in technology . Today's technology, as great as it is, cannot create 'old school' structures? Since our new structures are so fantasic, why can we not re-create something "less" fantastic.. With our " better " tools ??
-------------------- Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Deiymiyan]
#2796036 - 06/15/04 06:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Fair enough.. English is NOT my mother tongue. I truly admire those who are multi-lingual. With a significant lack in technology . I saw it. They had suffiicient technology to build the structures as evidenced by their existence. Today's technology, as great as it is, cannot create 'old school' structures? We cannot create crumbling, imperfect structures or there is no commercial value in it? Since our new structures are so fantasic, why can we not re-create something "less" fantastic.. With our " better " tools ?? Your merely making a statment doesn't tell me anything about the possibility or impossibility of duplicating archaic structures. For many years "The Colussus of Rhodes" was such an impossible structure until people learned the "trick" of how it was done; then were amazed at the simplicity of it.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (06/15/04 09:08 PM)
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Deiymiyan
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2796098 - 06/15/04 06:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Today's technology, as great as it is, cannot create 'old school' structures? We cannot create crumbling, imperfect structures or there is no commercial value in it? -----------------------
Yeah... I do believe you hit the nail on the head with "no commercial value".. It's sad to see so much emphasis upon the modern day great "DOLLAR"!..
...Maybe that's why some really amazing knowledge gets lost.. The focus is upon the wrong thing...
'Crumbling'..?? I would LOVE to too how today's structures will hold as thousands of years pass... Oh wait !! They continually refurbish them... Well, I guess that makes it an unfair comparison.
Those structures, I refered to, were once trully AMAZING !
As for the Pyramids... Vandalism began making them crumble.. Not so much, time.
Vandalism ALSO made OUR structures crumble.. Least we forget.. [ 9 1 1 ]
Since our new structures are so fantasic, why can we not re-create something "less" fantastic.. With our " better " tools ?? Your merely making a statment doesn't tell me anything about the possibility or impossibility of duplicating archaic structures. ------------------------
The thing is though.. They've made attemps.. and failed!
I guess I was making a rhetorical question then.. ?
-------------------- Dei Gratia de integro, Veni Vidi Vici: In Nomine Domini..
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Zero7a1
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2796604 - 06/15/04 09:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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why did "real" catastrophic events only happen long ago... ? Maybe "real" miracles are dependent on a set of factors... Much like natural events happpen on the earth... maybe?
-------------------- What?
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Positronius
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Zero7a1]
#2797217 - 06/15/04 11:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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but...real catastrophic events happen on a bi-weekly basis. Dont you watch the telly?
-------------------- and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2797286 - 06/15/04 11:37 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you consider a miracle as something you read in the Christian Bible then you are oversimplifying. Things happen everyday that cannot be explained by science. If a person overcomes what they feel is an insurmountable obstacle because of their faith then a miracle has truly occured. Miracles are not always objective as they can be subjective too. The spirit is much more subtle and integrated with life than you realize. To hold up a bunch of old stories from an ancient mythological text as a definition of miracles is preposterous. The Norse culture had a "bible" even older than the Christian one called "The Elder Edda". In it Odin creates the earth and sky from the skull of a frost giant; this is the sort of thing you are refering to; myths...not miracles. While myth has an important place in our lives the lessons learned from them are NOT literal, but symbolic.
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Zero7a1
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Positronius]
#2797753 - 06/16/04 01:26 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is true. And i really understand what you are saying. BUt for this discussion, im referring to "earth events".
Given what you said, i would have to agree, that yes these are catastrophic events for us .
-------------------- What?
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Geeno
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2798070 - 06/16/04 05:54 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Its a miracle that you post so much in this forum yet seem to hate everything everyone talks about.
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GazzBut
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2798092 - 06/16/04 06:12 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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there are plenty of reported miracles carried out by so called avatars etc. miracle healings etc etc. Im not saying they are true but plenty of miracles still get reported.
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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peleg
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
#2798264 - 06/16/04 07:52 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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my wife wittnessed a guys leg grow out to match the other one in a matter of seconds, this lady on my dads side of the family had a gift to where she could speak the fire out of you if you were burned, or what about reki it's a gift that you have to be attoned by in order to use,peace Gypsy
-------------------- "Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....
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Frog
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2798349 - 06/16/04 08:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: And as for Lourdes - why must this be the place by which the possibility of any miracles being done is tested ?
Use some logic here. It is not that it MUST be the place; however it certainly IS a good test bed for the power of faith and miracles. People travel hundreds or thousands of miles and spend their precious vacation time for the chance of a healing. The large numbers of visitors and number of years that this has occurred SHOULD show some positive anomolies IF there was anything to it.
Lourdes is not a good test bed for the power of faith and miracles. Just because people go there to be healed and aren't healed doesn't mean that miracles don't exist.
Indeed, since the first apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to Bernadette Soubirous, only 65 certifiable miracles have been attributed to the intercession of Our Lady of Lourdes. However, day after day, year after year, decade after decade, millions of people have been touched and healed by visits to this spiritual wellspring.
So in spite of how many people have traveled to Lourdes, there have only been a handful of miracles. Maybe there's something in the water that cures certain illnesses? I would like to know what kinds of miracles occurred. What illnesses were cured.
But I believe in miracles. Here's an anecdote for you...
I had a "miracle" happen to me when I was younger. I went to church on a night that they were laying hands on people or something. It was held one night a week. The minister would call out clues that had been revealed to him and someone in the audience would raise their hand that he was describing that person, and then people around that person would put their hands on that person and pray.
He started describing a person who had some kind of mole or bump on her chest and that she was bothered by it. I was just sort of vaguely listening, but as he spoke, I felt the bump on my chest, near my clavicle, in sort of a distracted way. I wasn't making a connection between what he was saying and my mole or whatever it was. It certainly did bother me. I didn't know what it was. It was like a purplish-red mole, and I was afraid to go to the doctor's.
Someone near me saw me touching my chest, where the mole was, and asked if I had a mole or something that was bothering me, and well, yes I did. So several people around me put their hands on me and prayed. The next morning, when I woke up, it was shrunken and it has been that way ever since.
I know, there is probably some good medical explanation. But I had had that mole thing for a while and it was worrying me. Then *poof* it disappeared after people prayed. Interesting coincidence, I guess.
And another time, when I had lower back pain, a group of people prayed over my back (sounds funny) and the back pain went away and I haven't had lower back pain since. Probably just more coincidence.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Frog]
#2798427 - 06/16/04 08:58 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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An argument could always be made that your psychological condition was influenced by the ritual that occurred and that the reaction was the result of the body changing due to the influence of the mind...like when you stop caring about a wart you've had forever and suddenly it is gone. I would argue that this is what happened, but that it was an act of faith that was the catalyst. Thus it was a minor miracle. A ritual is as much psychological as it is spiritual. In the end it is the result that matters.
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psyka
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2798515 - 06/16/04 09:51 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Perhaps, the only thing on this planet that is truly miraculous is the human eye.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Frog]
#2798684 - 06/16/04 10:40 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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While your stories are somewhat impressive, why is it that these healings can never be done in front of unbiased and certified medical people? Seems any true Christian would want to share thes amazing techniques. Getting a miraculous healing officially certified would increase membership in Churches dramatically. Of course frauds and those relying on temporary placebo effects whould most certainly AVOID real professionals - just like they do!
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2798791 - 06/16/04 11:19 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't totally discount faith healing as I know several people who have had this happen to them. Issues of the body are subject to psychological influence. This is scientific fact. Now, faith, it is a spiritual thing that can often be a catalyst to these psychological influences over the body. The person being healed, though, must have absolute faith in the result.
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Seuss
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2798899 - 06/16/04 11:55 AM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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> why is it that these healings can never be done in front of unbiased and certified medical people?
Because it would invalidate faith with proof.
> Of course frauds and those relying on temporary placebo effects whould most certainly AVOID real professionals
It is very upsetting to see frauds take advantage of people when they are at their absolute lowest... sick beyond help with no hope... along comes somebody offering hope with only greed in mind. It is sickening to see how low people will go to steal an extra dollar.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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peleg
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2800531 - 06/16/04 08:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: While your stories are somewhat impressive, why is it that these healings can never be done in front of unbiased and certified medical people? Seems any true Christian would want to share thes amazing techniques. Getting a miraculous healing officially certified would increase membership in Churches dramatically. Of course frauds and those relying on temporary placebo effects whould most certainly AVOID real professionals - just like they do!
Because it's not about drawing attention to ones self but to the glory of God,a person with a gift is humble and does not seek his or her own intrest, faith is what heals you
-------------------- "Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....
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Food
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2804733 - 06/18/04 06:59 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Swami - I have no time to argue, however I challenge you to challenge peleg about what his wife saw - and thusly call him a liar, accept that miracles do still occur, explain how he came to such a conclusion without it happening at all and without being a liar - or something else that addresses his comment of "my wife wittnessed a guys leg grow out to match the other one in a matter of seconds" .
I'll think you are terribly naughty if you do not !
BTW I think your post on spirituality the other day/week whatever was way cool . And I think you could do with letting go of your currently held antichristian views in exchange for a respect of the fact that indeed there are frauds liars religious fanatics and much worse that claim to be true christians but that of course this is no reflection upon the true ideals (if there are any) of real Christ loving . Just a thought .
Now if you will excuse me - or not - I shall indulge joyfully in consuming what will hopefully be a most efficacious cup of reshreshingly english tea .
Ciao .
-------------------- --------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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OOISI
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
#2804814 - 06/18/04 08:17 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Look at some of the ancient Pagodas, Buddist Temples et cetra and shit in Asia. They are far more beautiful and sacred than a fucking 'skycraper' mate, the motive behind a skycraper is financial greed. The motive from buddhist temples, pagodas et cetra is pure. Compare them, the temples are a lot better they have a better history.
Miracles are RAMPANT my friends open your mind! Ever heard of Ripleys Beleive it Or Not ????
Some dude got shot in the HEAD with a 44 magnum, half his brain was blown away and he survived???
So thats not a miracle by your standards ay? then i dont know what is
also theres heaps of other miracles on their too!
e.g. these 2 indonesian blokes were driving a motor bike and they got impaled with a huge metal pole through the both of them they survived got it removed and got back to livin'!
They have pictures and shit of him when half his brain was lost!!! Gruesome shit!!!
Psychics are miracles no scientist can explain, also magic mushrooms. How can a mushroom contain spiritual enlightenment.
[quote/] The spirit is much more subtle and integrated with life than you realize. [quote/]
exactly ... the spirit is life.
The spirit is the greatest miracle. It is a piece of the infinite. The spirit is the most advanced technology their is, it is the technology of Lord. We all have a spirit or should i say we all are a spirit, we should be grateful to god for this lovely present, life is the greatest miracle.
Also its a miracle of pure ignorance beleiving the mind generates thought.
But yeah all that was stated was my oppinion and if you dont agree with it, well i dont care God gave you the option of choosing what to beleive now thats a miracle!
-------------------- Subaeruginosa Guide Bless the Lord, O my soul O my soul Worship His holy name.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: OOISI]
#2804818 - 06/18/04 08:21 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nicely stated.
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vampirism
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2804975 - 06/18/04 09:30 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Swami, your definition of a miracle is a breach of natural law? Then yes, there are no miracles.
This is not my definition however, nor dictionary.com's! ( sorry i cant access a better online dictionary at the moment :p )
"An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: ?Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves? (Katherine Anne Porter)."
key word : appears
If science were to find a miracle, it would instantly be written off to error in the experiment, or written off as an expected deviation from the norm.
The mechanics behind a miracle's occurance do not negate its existence.
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: OOISI]
#2805104 - 06/18/04 10:15 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Some dude got shot in the HEAD with a 44 magnum, half his brain was blown away and he survived??? So thats not a miracle by your standards ay? then i dont know what is A miracle would be something requiring supernatural intervention. The part of his brain controlling respiration, heartbeat and other autonomous functions was not destroyed.
e.g. these 2 indonesian blokes were driving a motor bike and they got impaled with a huge metal pole through the both of them they survived got it removed and got back to livin'! The doctors' study of the human body and the development of trauma medicine is a miracle or a science? In neither of the cases you stated did the people survive without PHYSICAL attention from highly-trained professionals.
Psychics are miracles no scientist can explain, Yes, it is called "cold reading", expectation, and "filling in the gap". Just read a book where a guy goes to a psychic. She gives him "an amazingly accurate prediction" when she says, "You will travel far and have a life-changing experience." Wow, that is amazing! (That anyone still believes this nonsense!)
also magic mushrooms. How can a mushroom contain spiritual enlightenment. They cannot and do not.
They are far more beautiful and sacred than a fucking 'skycraper' mate, the motive behind a skycraper is financial greed. The motive from buddhist temples, pagodas et cetra is pure. If I show you a random building, you can tell the motive behind all of the people involved? I would like to see you perform such an incredible feat. The thousands (or more) people behind a building such as the architect, the planners, the financiers, the construction workers all having the exact same motive is remote in the extreme.
The real miracle would be to post without letting emotionalism carry you away.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: vampirism]
#2805112 - 06/18/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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If science were to find a miracle, it would instantly be...
If, if... Let's see the miracle before we decide how science would or would not react.
I hear this pathetic excuse all the time as reasons not to take a single one of my myriad of Swami Challenges. Yet no one delivers so that they can even make the real-world claim of definition changing. "Gee Swami, I would show you levitation, but you would not believe anyway." Show me, then let's ACTUALLY see how I react.
The mechanics behind a miracle's occurance do not negate its existence. More dodging. It is not the mechanics that are the problem, but the lack of miracles.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
#2805126 - 06/18/04 10:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Swami - I have no time to argue, however I challenge you to challenge peleg about what his wife saw...
It is hard to respond directly to a heresay story (which is why they are not allowed in the US legal system).
I will however, make a point. Some witnesses believe that Filipino psychic surgeons have performed a miracle when they remove tumors in front of an audience. The "tumors" examined usually turn out to be bloody chicken parts palmed by the sleigh-of-hand "surgeon". Summation: people are e-a-s-i-l-y fooled ALL THE TIME.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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GazzBut
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2805142 - 06/18/04 10:40 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The "tumors" examined usually turn out to be bloody chicken parts
Usually? what about the other times?
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: GazzBut]
#2805163 - 06/18/04 10:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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The psychic surgeons try to quickly dispose of them so as not to be caught. These chicken parts are concealed behind flesh-covered wax on the surgeons palm or thumb. Debunkers managed to retrieve some and went them to a lab for biopsy. This is why not a single paranormal claimant (read: charlatan) will let themselves be tested in a controlled environment. Andy kaufman wnet to one when he was dying of cancer. At first he was shocked when he saw the trick, then laughed as he had pulled quite a few practical jokes on his audience. Of course, your question was just more noise. Get to the real question: Do you believe that people can be easily fooled? Has this EVER been demonstrated on a large-scale?
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (06/18/04 12:31 PM)
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vampirism
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2805468 - 06/18/04 12:25 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: If science were to find a miracle, it would instantly be...
If, if... Let's see the miracle before we decide how science would or would not react.
No, it DOES react like that. Anything outside of the norm is accounted for, either with number botching or modifying the hypothesis. You cannot just ask for an example when it is so in every case - A while back in school, there was a largish experiment where all the kids planted seeds with a magnet so that the seeds would not grow out to be plants. There were controls without magnets of course, but not all of those grew. This does not mean that there were secretly magnets under those which didn't grow.
In science, there is no miracle because everything is mechanics. Does science represent natural order and reality? I doubt it. It is one developed form of analyzing natural order and reality.
Quote:
More dodging. It is not the mechanics that are the problem, but the lack of miracles.
I am not dodging. This reallllly seems like a case of differing definitions of miracle. Some believe every child being born is a miracle. Some believe it is just a physiological mechanic, and that there is nothing special about it.
Some believe that a woman named Mary once had a child without a mate. Some say it's bullshit. Others hypothesize that she may have had a genetic defect -- Did you know that certain organisms, such as chickens, will spontaneously reproduce when the male sperm count is too low? Rare, but documented. Well, maybe that's a miracle if it defies what natural order you perceive.
Anyway, the lack of miracles is not the problem. The problem is limiting miracles to the impossible. But the impossible does not exist because it is not possible.
To make this discussion somewhat coherent, please give your definition of a miracle.
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: vampirism]
#2805552 - 06/18/04 12:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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So you are saying that plants might respond to a magnetic field. (MRIs are "pictures" taken based on a the body's response to magnetism.) Where is the fallacious scientific response that you alleged? Where is the supernatural intervention?
Some believe every child being born is a miracle. Some believe it is just a physiological mechanic, and that there is nothing special about it. Whatever the mechanism, it certainly is a regular occurence and not out of the ordinary realm of experience.
Some believe that a woman named Mary once had a child without a mate. Some say it's bullshit. It was most likely a translation error.
To make this discussion somewhat coherent, please give your definition of a miracle. A non-ordinary event requiring supernatural intervention.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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peleg
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2805588 - 06/18/04 12:51 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Can you hold or disect the mind? Where is it in the brain? Is it in the brain? Or do you just accept it as is?
-------------------- "Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: peleg]
#2805603 - 06/18/04 12:55 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why this gear-switching? Have you run out of salient arguments?
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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peleg
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2805643 - 06/18/04 01:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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can the mind itself not be a miracle itself thats given to each one of us?no-one can really explain it=miracle, can only come up with theorys=miracle,sure the medical community has come along ways, but they can't really pin point any one certain thing, how is that you can think of a piture perfect landscape as easy as breathing?
-------------------- "Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: peleg]
#2806008 - 06/18/04 02:24 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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*sigh* No wonder we can never get to philosophical issues. Did you understand the meaning of an "event"? This is the second time in this thread this has been covered. A miracle is an event and an event denotes action of some sort. Got it? Mind is not an event. And an unknown is not a miracle. Using your defintion, the murder of Laci Peterson was a miracle because it is mystery who committed it.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (06/20/04 01:21 AM)
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psyka
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2806099 - 06/18/04 02:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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What philosophical issue is being covered here? I think its a miscommunication issue to be honest with you. Would the word "marvelous" be a better substitute for a "miracle" ? The ideas they're trying to portray are easily digestable and not terribly inhuman. I consider objects that become aware of themselves and reflect the nature of the Universe (our minds) to be quite miraculous/amazing/marvelous/beautiful. This is a discussion not a trial.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.
Edited by psyka (06/18/04 02:43 PM)
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vampirism
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2806909 - 06/18/04 07:15 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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well with that definition there are no miracles,
as the supernatural cannot exist in the system you're using to examine this issue.. oh well
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Zero7a1
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2807847 - 06/18/04 11:55 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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BEcause when jesus left it wasnt cool anymore?
-------------------- What?
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psikooz
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Zero7a1]
#2808058 - 06/19/04 01:42 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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There reason we hear of miracles long ago, is because, they are written in a book, no one that exists today witnessed these "miracle" we only have written "accounts".
Now and then are the same thing.
There is no future, no past, there is only now.
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Food
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2808324 - 06/19/04 04:58 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Swami - a leg growing to normal length is certainly not the kind of thing a magician produces as a trick . Tumors ---- getting ------ removed - not the same thing dude .
Your answer to this challenge is completely inadequete (I cant spell that word but never the less it is so).
You are very good at creating diversions (legal system stuff etc) but these ancient miracles that you speak of - you didnt see them, they were a claim - so whats the difference - you cannot deny that such miraculous occurences are still claimed to happen as they once were - what I mean is that your post is suggesting that these things are only believed to have happend along time ago but this is simply not true - so for once why not admit that you are not correct ? - the post is a faux statement .
-------------------- --------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
#2808720 - 06/19/04 12:11 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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So we have ancient stories replaced by modern stories, but still no evidence.
I remember (and sclorch has an additional story on this) about a bank window in Florida being polarized or the two sandwiched panes becoming separated such as to form an image. It was claimed to be an apparition of the Virgin Mary. I drove by and saw it. It was a hazy, half-elipse looking nothing at all like any person; let alone a specific person; yet there were candles and thousands of people on the lawn and in the street.
Nut jobs one and all hoping to find salvation in a piece of silica and claiming it was a miracle. Yup, poor quality control on a piece of glass mixed with crowd hysteria was an awesome demonstration of God's magnificence.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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illusions
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: silversoul7]
#2809209 - 06/19/04 04:57 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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aahahahahahah!!!!
-------------------- we were born into the world of nature. when we die, we are born into the world of spirit.
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Swami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: illusions]
#2809232 - 06/19/04 05:07 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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The "Virgin Mary" or polarized glass?
The police estimated 10,000 wackos, er visitors, per week came by to pray or gawk.
Wonder how many if it looked like a "Gray"...
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2809375 - 06/19/04 06:08 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I agree such "miracles" are laughable.
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Zero7a1
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2810184 - 06/20/04 12:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Good artwork though!
-------------------- What?
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OOISI
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#2810245 - 06/20/04 12:49 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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A miracle would be something requiring supernatural intervention. The part of his brain controlling respiration, heartbeat and other autonomous functions was not destroyed. The doctors helped him later not right away. Why dont you get shot with a 44 mag in the head and get half your brain blown away. If you survive for more than 5 seconds ill give you 20k. If I show you a random building, you can tell the motive behind all of the people involved? I would like to see you perform such an incredible feat. The thousands (or more) people behind a building such as the architect, the planners, the financiers, the construction workers all having the exact same motive is remote in the extreme. Lol, im talking about the motive behind the one man, the one man that made the construction possible.The architects,workers etc just agreed to do their job to get paid. And the motive behind all the workers was to get paid same with the planners and financers. To Invest and gain more money. If that wasnt their motive the people involved wouldnt of asked for any money. If they did it voluntarily than you could say they didnt do it for financial gain. Swami are you aethist or something? Because you seem to go out your way to doubt Gods existence. Ok ill tell you a real miracle. There's trillions of atoms in a tennis ball right? Then how much atoms make up all the universes? (planets,suns etc) and where did this insanely large number of atoms come from?? What was the cause of the FIRST atom? Something that science cannot explain. And the big bang isnt compatible with this conversation because something had to cause the big bang in the first place. Without any atoms how can an explosion be generated? ... nothing but gods intervention which my friend is a miracle. Something that pervades all understanding of humans for it is only known by the highest manifestation of energy. So swearing in my post is letting emotionalism carry me away? Using your defintion, the murder of Laci Peterson was a miracle because it is mystery who committed it. Nope if someone murdered him than it isnt unknown, in the mind of his murderer. Just because all of mankind doesnt know, doesnt make it a mystery. Because one man in mankind does know ... thus making it known.
-------------------- Subaeruginosa Guide Bless the Lord, O my soul O my soul Worship His holy name.
Edited by OOISI (06/20/04 12:52 AM)
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: OOISI]
#2810279 - 06/20/04 01:09 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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I believe Swami is more an advocate of the Devil than a disbeliever in God.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: OOISI]
#2810313 - 06/20/04 01:20 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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The doctors helped him later not right away. Why dont you get shot with a 44 mag in the head and get half your brain blown away. If you survive for more than 5 seconds ill give you 20k. Please mail me the .44 magnum so that I may practice first. I will PM you my address. Is your statement somehow supposed to be clever? Almost every other person shot like that will die. There was a guy in New York in the early 70s who was shot seven times point blank in the head with a .22 while being robbed. He stayed conscious while calling the ambulance and survived without a brain operation. Let's take the inverse. Maybe only 1 in 10,000 people who step on a nail will die from tetanus or an infection. Is God killing that one or saving the others? How can we know? Yes, the shooting survivals are remarkable occurences, but where is the evidence of supernatural intervention? The odds of winning the lottery may be 1 in 100,000,000 tickets but it will be won. So what? Does that mean God chose the winner just because of the rarity?
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (06/20/04 02:12 AM)
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zorbman
blarrr
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#2810387 - 06/20/04 02:01 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Baloney.
When you re-read your statement in your right mind you'll see that too.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#3068358 - 08/30/04 08:34 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
I would contend that since the laws of physics have not changed, the ancient miraculous stories are due to superstition, ignorance, and exaggerated or misquoted story-telling.
You've obviously never witnessed psychic surgery!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
#3068384 - 08/30/04 08:53 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think that a "miracle," much like magic, is simply that which cannot be explained by contemporary scientific knowledge. So I would say that "real" miracles only happened long ago(or were more common back then) because the people at the time were not as scientifically advanced as we are today, and thus chalked up those events to divine intervention. A modern-day "miracle" could be electron particles appearing and disappearing out of thin air. Some quantum physicists have theorized that they are travelling between parallel dimensions, but of course, we don't really know.
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Diploid]
#3068386 - 08/30/04 08:54 AM (19 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Quote:
I would contend that since the laws of physics have not changed, the ancient miraculous stories are due to superstition, ignorance, and exaggerated or misquoted story-telling.
You've obviously never witnessed psychic surgery!
You mean where the "surgeon" pretends to reach inside the body and pulls out bloody pieces of beef or pork which he had concealed in his hand?
-------------------- "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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