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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Frog]
    #2798427 - 06/16/04 08:58 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

An argument could always be made that your psychological condition was influenced by the ritual that occurred and that the reaction was the result of the body changing due to the influence of the mind...like when you stop caring about a wart you've had forever and suddenly it is gone. I would argue that this is what happened, but that it was an act of faith that was the catalyst. Thus it was a minor miracle. A ritual is as much psychological as it is spiritual. In the end it is the result that matters.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2798515 - 06/16/04 09:51 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Perhaps, the only thing on this planet that is truly miraculous is the human eye.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Frog]
    #2798684 - 06/16/04 10:40 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

While your stories are somewhat impressive, why is it that these healings can never be done in front of unbiased and certified medical people? Seems any true Christian would want to share thes amazing techniques. Getting a miraculous healing officially certified would increase membership in Churches dramatically. Of course frauds and those relying on temporary placebo effects whould most certainly AVOID real professionals - just like they do!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
    #2798791 - 06/16/04 11:19 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I don't totally discount faith healing as I know several people who have had this happen to them. Issues of the body are subject to psychological influence. This is scientific fact. Now, faith, it is a spiritual thing that can often be a catalyst to these psychological influences over the body. The person being healed, though, must have absolute faith in the result.

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
    #2798899 - 06/16/04 11:55 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

> why is it that these healings can never be done in front of unbiased and certified medical people?

Because it would invalidate faith with proof.

> Of course frauds and those relying on temporary placebo effects whould most certainly AVOID real professionals

It is very upsetting to see frauds take advantage of people when they are at their absolute lowest... sick beyond help with no hope... along comes somebody offering hope with only greed in mind. It is sickening to see how low people will go to steal an extra dollar.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinepeleg
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
    #2800531 - 06/16/04 08:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
While your stories are somewhat impressive, why is it that these healings can never be done in front of unbiased and certified medical people? Seems any true Christian would want to share thes amazing techniques. Getting a miraculous healing officially certified would increase membership in Churches dramatically. Of course frauds and those relying on temporary placebo effects whould most certainly AVOID real professionals - just like they do!


Because it's not about drawing attention to ones self but to the glory of God,a person with a gift is humble and does not seek his or her own intrest, faith is what heals you


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....

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OfflineFood
---Beast---

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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
    #2804733 - 06/18/04 06:59 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Swami - I have no time to argue, however I challenge you to challenge peleg about what his wife saw - and thusly call him a liar, accept that miracles do still occur, explain how he came to such a conclusion without it happening at all and without being a liar - or something else that addresses his comment of "my wife wittnessed a guys leg grow out to match the other one in a matter of seconds" .

I'll think you are terribly naughty if you do not !

BTW I think your post on spirituality the other day/week whatever was way cool . And I think you could do with letting go of your currently held antichristian views in exchange for a respect of the fact that indeed there are frauds liars religious fanatics and much worse that claim to be true christians but that of course this is no reflection upon the true ideals (if there are any) of real Christ loving .
Just a thought .

Now if you will excuse me - or not - I shall indulge joyfully in consuming what will hopefully be a most efficacious cup of reshreshingly english tea .

Ciao .


--------------------
--------mushworld.com-----More info than you can throw a stick at-

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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
    #2804814 - 06/18/04 08:17 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Look at some of the ancient Pagodas, Buddist Temples et cetra and shit in Asia. They are far more beautiful and sacred than a fucking 'skycraper' mate, the motive behind a skycraper is financial greed. The motive from buddhist temples, pagodas et cetra is pure. Compare them, the temples are a lot better they have a better history.

Miracles are RAMPANT my friends open your mind! Ever heard of Ripleys Beleive it Or Not ????

Some dude got shot in the HEAD with a 44 magnum, half his brain was blown away and he survived???

So thats not a miracle by your standards ay? then i dont know what is

also theres heaps of other miracles on their too!

e.g. these 2 indonesian blokes were driving a motor bike and they got impaled with a huge metal pole through the both of them they survived got it removed and got back to livin'!

They have pictures and shit of him when half his brain was lost!!!
Gruesome shit!!!

Psychics are miracles no scientist can explain, also magic mushrooms. How can a mushroom contain spiritual enlightenment.

[quote/] The spirit is much more subtle and integrated with life than you realize. [quote/]

exactly ... the spirit is life.

The spirit is the greatest miracle. It is a piece of the infinite.
The spirit is the most advanced technology their is, it is the technology of Lord.
We all have a spirit or should i say we all are a spirit, we should be grateful to god for this lovely present, life is the greatest miracle.

Also its a miracle of pure ignorance beleiving the mind generates thought.

But yeah all that was stated was my oppinion and if you dont agree with it, well i dont care God gave you the option of choosing what to beleive now thats a miracle!


--------------------
Subaeruginosa Guide

Bless the Lord, O my soul O my soul Worship His holy name.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: OOISI]
    #2804818 - 06/18/04 08:21 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Nicely stated.

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
    #2804975 - 06/18/04 09:30 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Swami,
your definition of a miracle is a breach of natural law? Then yes, there are no miracles.

This is not my definition however, nor dictionary.com's! ( sorry i cant access a better online dictionary at the moment :p )

"An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God: ?Miracles are spontaneous, they cannot be summoned, but come of themselves? (Katherine Anne Porter)."

key word : appears

If science were to find a miracle, it would instantly be written off to error in the experiment, or written off as an expected deviation from the norm.

The mechanics behind a miracle's occurance do not negate its existence.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: OOISI]
    #2805104 - 06/18/04 10:15 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Some dude got shot in the HEAD with a 44 magnum, half his brain was blown away and he survived??? So thats not a miracle by your standards ay? then i dont know what is
A miracle would be something requiring supernatural intervention. The part of his brain controlling respiration, heartbeat and other autonomous functions was not destroyed.

e.g. these 2 indonesian blokes were driving a motor bike and they got impaled with a huge metal pole through the both of them they survived got it removed and got back to livin'!
The doctors' study of the human body and the development of trauma medicine is a miracle or a science? In neither of the cases you stated did the people survive without PHYSICAL attention from highly-trained professionals.

Psychics are miracles no scientist can explain,
Yes, it is called "cold reading", expectation, and "filling in the gap". Just read a book where a guy goes to a psychic. She gives him "an amazingly accurate prediction" when she says, "You will travel far and have a life-changing experience." Wow, that is amazing! (That anyone still believes this nonsense!)

also magic mushrooms. How can a mushroom contain spiritual enlightenment.
They cannot and do not.

They are far more beautiful and sacred than a fucking 'skycraper' mate, the motive behind a skycraper is financial greed. The motive from buddhist temples, pagodas et cetra is pure.
If I show you a random building, you can tell the motive behind all of the people involved? I would like to see you perform such an incredible feat.
The thousands (or more) people behind a building such as the architect, the planners, the financiers, the construction workers all having the exact same motive is remote in the extreme.

The real miracle would be to post without letting emotionalism carry you away.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: vampirism]
    #2805112 - 06/18/04 10:20 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

If science were to find a miracle, it would instantly be...

If, if... Let's see the miracle before we decide how science would or would not react.

I hear this pathetic excuse all the time as reasons not to take a single one of my myriad of Swami Challenges. Yet no one delivers so that they can even make the real-world claim of definition changing. "Gee Swami, I would show you levitation, but you would not believe anyway." Show me, then let's ACTUALLY see how I react.

The mechanics behind a miracle's occurance do not negate its existence.
More dodging. It is not the mechanics that are the problem, but the lack of miracles.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Food]
    #2805126 - 06/18/04 10:29 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Swami - I have no time to argue, however I challenge you to challenge peleg about what his wife saw...

It is hard to respond directly to a heresay story (which is why they are not allowed in the US legal system).

I will however, make a point. Some witnesses believe that Filipino psychic surgeons have performed a miracle when they remove tumors in front of an audience. The "tumors" examined usually turn out to be bloody chicken parts palmed by the sleigh-of-hand "surgeon". Summation: people are e-a-s-i-l-y fooled ALL THE TIME.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
    #2805142 - 06/18/04 10:40 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The "tumors" examined usually turn out to be bloody chicken parts




Usually? what about the other times?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: GazzBut]
    #2805163 - 06/18/04 10:51 AM (19 years, 8 months ago)

The psychic surgeons try to quickly dispose of them so as not to be caught. These chicken parts are concealed behind flesh-covered wax on the surgeons palm or thumb.

Debunkers managed to retrieve some and went them to a lab for biopsy. This is why not a single paranormal claimant (read: charlatan) will let themselves be tested in a controlled environment.

Andy kaufman wnet to one when he was dying of cancer. At first he was shocked when he saw the trick, then laughed as he had pulled quite a few practical jokes on his audience.

Of course, your question was just more noise. Get to the real question: Do you believe that people can be easily fooled? Has this EVER been demonstrated on a large-scale?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/18/04 12:31 PM)

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
    #2805468 - 06/18/04 12:25 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
If science were to find a miracle, it would instantly be...

If, if... Let's see the miracle before we decide how science would or would not react.





No, it DOES react like that. Anything outside of the norm is accounted for, either with number botching or modifying the hypothesis. You cannot just ask for an example when it is so in every case - A while back in school, there was a largish experiment where all the kids planted seeds with a magnet so that the seeds would not grow out to be plants. There were controls without magnets of course, but not all of those grew. This does not mean that there were secretly magnets under those which didn't grow.

In science, there is no miracle because everything is mechanics. Does science represent natural order and reality? I doubt it. It is one developed form of analyzing natural order and reality.

Quote:


More dodging. It is not the mechanics that are the problem, but the lack of miracles.





I am not dodging. This reallllly seems like a case of differing definitions of miracle. Some believe every child being born is a miracle. Some believe it is just a physiological mechanic, and that there is nothing special about it.

Some believe that a woman named Mary once had a child without a mate. Some say it's bullshit. Others hypothesize that she may have had a genetic defect -- Did you know that certain organisms, such as chickens, will spontaneously reproduce when the male sperm count is too low? Rare, but documented. Well, maybe that's a miracle if it defies what natural order you perceive.




Anyway, the lack of miracles is not the problem. The problem is limiting miracles to the impossible. But the impossible does not exist because it is not possible.

To make this discussion somewhat coherent, please give your definition of a miracle.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: vampirism]
    #2805552 - 06/18/04 12:42 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

So you are saying that plants might respond to a magnetic field. (MRIs are "pictures" taken based on a the body's response to magnetism.) Where is the fallacious scientific response that you alleged? Where is the supernatural intervention?

Some believe every child being born is a miracle. Some believe it is just a physiological mechanic, and that there is nothing special about it.
Whatever the mechanism, it certainly is a regular occurence and not out of the ordinary realm of experience.

Some believe that a woman named Mary once had a child without a mate. Some say it's bullshit.
It was most likely a translation error.

To make this discussion somewhat coherent, please give your definition of a miracle.
A non-ordinary event requiring supernatural intervention.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinepeleg
Gypsy
Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 535
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Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
    #2805588 - 06/18/04 12:51 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Can you hold or disect the mind? Where is it in the brain? Is it in the brain? Or do you just accept it as is?


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....

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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: peleg]
    #2805603 - 06/18/04 12:55 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

Why this gear-switching? Have you run out of salient arguments?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Offlinepeleg
Gypsy
Registered: 10/03/03
Posts: 535
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Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Why did "real" miracles only happen long ago? [Re: Swami]
    #2805643 - 06/18/04 01:03 PM (19 years, 8 months ago)

can the mind itself not be a miracle itself thats given to each one of us?no-one can really explain it=miracle, can only come up with theorys=miracle,sure the medical community has come along ways, but they can't really pin point any one certain thing, how is that you can think of a piture perfect landscape as easy as breathing?


--------------------
"Well the first days are the hardest days." When life looks like easy street there is danger at your door.....

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