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OfflineRotnpins
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Grind365]
    #27917362 - 08/24/22 09:51 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grind365 said:

Edit: I also noticed he said more nutritious agar gives fast vigorous growth I know the opposite to be true what gives?




In comparison to water agar, it's definitely a lot quicker and more vigorous. However this works to out advantage because it still moves faster than contamination.


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OfflineGrind365
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Rotnpins]
    #27917374 - 08/24/22 10:01 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rotnpins said:
Quote:

Grind365 said:

Edit: I also noticed he said more nutritious agar gives fast vigorous growth I know the opposite to be true what gives?




In comparison to water agar, it's definitely a lot quicker and more vigorous. However this works to out advantage because it still moves faster than contamination.



Huh this gives me something to think about. I always heard that mycelium grows much quicker in a lower nutrition environment because it is "searching" for nutrients.
I am actually experimenting with dilution levels of GWA or GSA right now but to no extreme. I did 150ml grain water into 250ml total volume, 200ml and 250ml so full strength grain water. So all pretty close all in all for this run but plan to experiment alot more with it. Maybe I'll also try boiling the grain soak water down to a smaller volume to pack more nutrients into it and see what happens.


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OfflineRotnpins
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Grind365]
    #27917378 - 08/24/22 10:04 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I heard the same thing.. but after observing a couple batches of water agar plates growing side by side with MYA plates, the water agar is MUCH slower.. I have plates I inoculated 2 weeks ago that still haven't reached the outer edges of the plates.. my MYA plates from the same time are fully colonized.. I can update the OP with some comparison pictures tomorrow

Also, I've seen low nutrient plates grow out faster than regular plates.. so my guess is that it's due to the complete lack of nutrition


Edited by Rotnpins (08/24/22 10:06 PM)


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OfflineGrind365
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Rotnpins] * 1
    #27917383 - 08/24/22 10:09 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rotnpins said:
I heard the same thing.. but after observing a couple batches of water agar plates growing side by side with MYA plates, the water agar is MUCH slower.. I have plates I inoculated 2 weeks ago that still haven't reached the outer edges of the plates.. my MYA plates from the same time are fully colonized.. I can update the OP with some comparison pictures tomorrow



That would be super dope to see comparison picks.

I believe that there is also probably a big difference between no nutrition and low nutrition but without testing it for myself that's just a theory. If I had to guess though I'd say low nutrition probably moves faster than with no nutrition and high nutrition plates also cause the mycelium to move slowly. Just a complete theory though no proof.
Maybe in low nutrition mycelium has the energy to move in search of more nutrition and and no nutrition the mycelium just has to do the best it can to move :grin:


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Offlinezilker
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Rotnpins] * 1
    #27917434 - 08/24/22 11:21 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rotnpins:  I really liked how he used it to get a sample straight from some substrate.. I don't think I would have thought of doing that.



Whaaaaat???  Don't tell me I thought about something before you did, amigo?  C'mon Rotn, that's gotta be worth a rating for this newbie, eh?!?  Also, transferring from one water to another can be tricky because it wants to stick the blade.  I had a really hard time with one of them and ended up slicing into the agar, touching the bottom.  That fucker has equal growth on the top AND bottom of the plate all the way to the edge (it grows REALLY fast on water...need to transfer much sooner than you do a nute plate).  I can't get a good picture of it, but it's pretty damn cool looking.



Not sure why, but I've noticed my plates tend to condensate at night...I guess that has something to do with metabolic growth versus resting stages??  When I pulled these out for a look-see a few hours ago, no condensation.  Tonight isn't the first time I've noticed.  Neither here nor there, I suppose.

This guy also has some very informative info https://www.youtube.com/c/SouthwestMushrooms. He's all gourmet, but a lot of the general knowledge is universal. I actually have about 60/40 gourmet/cube at the moment.  Only way I can grow cubes with family interaction...my 11yr old loves this shit as much as I do. I only grow 1 tub of cubes at a time and tell her they're backyard finds that I'm growing for practice, and don't EVER eat them b/c they're toxic (not necessarily a lie, so don't judge me!!!).

These are transfers from cakes; Warm Button and Shiitake...getting transferred to another water agar tomorrow before going to nutrient.



Quote:

HILLBILLY OUTLAWS: Before I first actually got started I bought and read like 5 different books on the subject and watched prob every you tube vid there is. Took it all in and filtered out what I thought either logically wouldn’t work and focused on what actually made sense. Didn’t find shroomery until right after my first grow was over. Would have been much easier if I stumbled upon this place about 9 months ago. Lol


Similar story here...I thought mushrooms grew in shit, so they had to be easy...had 4 grows gone bad before I registered. :foreheadslap:



Quote:

Grind365:  So I haven't finished the video yet but I had to come back here to ask is agar really pronounced auger?
Edit: I also noticed he said more nutritious agar gives fast vigorous growth I know the opposite to be true what gives?





In TX, auger is an attachment to a tractor used to dig holes for fence posts and planting young trees.  This dude's pronunciation of agg-ARE was like nails on a fucking chalkboard to me.



Quote:

san pedro guy:  agg-R is how i say it in my head, never said it outloud :lol:


Close, but you're missing the TX draw...agg-ARE :dancer:


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OfflineGrind365
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: zilker] * 1
    #27917462 - 08/24/22 11:53 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zilker said:
Quote:

Rotnpins:  I really liked how he used it to get a sample straight from some substrate.. I don't think I would have thought of doing that.



Whaaaaat???  Don't tell me I thought about something before you did, amigo?  C'mon Rotn, that's gotta be worth a rating for this newbie, eh?!?  Also, transferring from one water to another can be tricky because it wants to stick the blade.  I had a really hard time with one of them and ended up slicing into the agar, touching the bottom.  That fucker has equal growth on the top AND bottom of the plate all the way to the edge (it grows REALLY fast on water...need to transfer much sooner than you do a nute plate).  I can't get a good picture of it, but it's pretty damn cool looking.



Not sure why, but I've noticed my plates tend to condensate at night...I guess that has something to do with metabolic growth versus resting stages??  When I pulled these out for a look-see a few hours ago, no condensation.  Tonight isn't the first time I've noticed.  Neither here nor there, I suppose.

This guy also has some very informative info https://www.youtube.com/c/SouthwestMushrooms. He's all gourmet, but a lot of the general knowledge is universal. I actually have about 60/40 gourmet/cube at the moment.  Only way I can grow cubes with family interaction...my 11yr old loves this shit as much as I do. I only grow 1 tub of cubes at a time and tell her they're backyard finds that I'm growing for practice, and don't EVER eat them b/c they're toxic (not necessarily a lie, so don't judge me!!!).

These are transfers from cakes; Warm Button and Shiitake...getting transferred to another water agar tomorrow before going to nutrient.



Quote:

HILLBILLY OUTLAWS: Before I first actually got started I bought and read like 5 different books on the subject and watched prob every you tube vid there is. Took it all in and filtered out what I thought either logically wouldn’t work and focused on what actually made sense. Didn’t find shroomery until right after my first grow was over. Would have been much easier if I stumbled upon this place about 9 months ago. Lol


Similar story here...I thought mushrooms grew in shit, so they had to be easy...had 4 grows gone bad before I registered. :foreheadslap:



Quote:

Grind365:  So I haven't finished the video yet but I had to come back here to ask is agar really pronounced auger?
Edit: I also noticed he said more nutritious agar gives fast vigorous growth I know the opposite to be true what gives?





In TX, auger is an attachment to a tractor used to dig holes for fence posts and planting young trees.  This dude's pronunciation of agg-ARE was like nails on a fucking chalkboard to me.



Quote:

san pedro guy:  agg-R is how i say it in my head, never said it outloud :lol:


Close, but you're missing the TX draw...agg-ARE :dancer:



Yes that's what it reminded me of everytime he said auger I was expecting to hear bit after it lmfao.
I actually grew up in Amarillo so I guess Texas is a second home to me.


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OfflineRotnpins
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: zilker]
    #27917596 - 08/25/22 04:09 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

:werd: I'll give credit where it's due.. I just left you a rating.. plus you made me smile :lol:


As far as condensation goes, I'm curious, where we're those in your plate stacks? The top few plates of my stacks tend to have condensation, so I keep some older plates around that I'm not using, and I put 3 on top of each stack



In this picture,  the black plates are mostly there for condensation control


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Offlinezilker
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Rotnpins] * 1
    #27917783 - 08/25/22 07:51 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

:werd: I'll give credit where it's due.. I just left you a rating.. plus you made me smile :lol:


Awwww, shucks...you're swell!  Much appreciated! :smile2:


Quote:

As far as condensation goes, I'm curious, where we're those in your plate stacks? The top few plates of my stacks tend to have condensation



Ya know, I think they were toward the top.  That makes complete sense b/c the metabolic heat doesn't get cooled prematurely by the air above it. I think I'll add the shielding plate to my list of weekend duties.  Be a good use for the left over plates that get taken out of sterile packaging but not filled due to running out of auger (couldn't help it).

Edit - Moved plate progress to my 8/18 earlier post showing log


Edited by zilker (08/25/22 10:32 AM)


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OfflineRotnpins
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: zilker]
    #27917789 - 08/25/22 08:01 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

The contaminated plate would make a good condensed buffer plate... most of mine are just old plates that I've already used and don't see myself going back to them


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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: zilker] * 1
    #27917829 - 08/25/22 08:54 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

The condensation will show up at night because it gets cooler. If you sit with your and on top of the plate for 5 min or so it will clear up, but it will come back again when it cools. 

@Rotnpins, I never thought of stacking plates like that to avoid the cooldown, thanks for the idea.


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OfflineRotnpins
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: schpat]
    #27917844 - 08/25/22 09:03 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

No problem.. I noticed right away that the first 2 or 3 plates were always the ones with the most condensation, so I've just been stacking my plates accordingly.. at first, I'd just put the more important plates on the bottom, but after a while I decided to just hold on to a bunch of older plates and use them as a buffer..

Once in a while you'll notice something nice like a plate pin pop up on one of the top plates, so it's good to take a look at them periodically.

Since this thread is about water agar...
It's a good use for your water agar plates once you've gotten a clean transfer off of them.


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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Rotnpins] * 2
    #27921058 - 08/27/22 11:13 AM (1 year, 4 months ago)

So I think this might make for a cool experiment, I am not set up to run it so I'll run it by you for obvious reasons:



I just posted this while talking about slime molds on our Discord server, run controls etc but this is the basic idea.

This is basically how they test slime molds in the lab, they always search out the food source even when obstacles are present.

Not sure how it will work out for Psilocybe species but a Mycelial foraging experiment sounds fun.


Interested?


Edited by Stipe-n Cap (08/27/22 11:26 AM)


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OfflineRotnpins
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 2
    #27921080 - 08/27/22 11:28 AM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
So I think this might make for a cool experiment, I am not set up to run it so I'll run it by you for obvious reasons:



I just posted this while talking about slime molds on our Discord server, run controls etc but this is the basic idea.

This is basically how they test slime molds in the lab, they always search out the food source even when obstacles are present.


Interested?




Very much so. Thank you for the idea.. I'd be very interested in seeing the results... I've got a bunch of water agar plates on standby, so I'll put someone together in the next day or 2

Mycelium and mushrooms have an intelligence that I never noticed before getting into cultivation...

I've seen mushrooms in a water tub (growing out of the bottom of the cake, toward the water) turn and start growing sideways to avoid hitting the water..

Same with the lid of a tub.. when the first fruit got close to the lid it turned, and all the smaller fruits started turning by the next day, even tho they weren't close to being tall enough to hit the lid..

Thanks p9, I think this experiment would make a great addition to this thread :super:


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OfflineCob
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27921095 - 08/27/22 11:38 AM (1 year, 4 months ago)

That's interesting, I've seen mushrooms and myc behave in the manner you're speaking of. I just never thought about it this way before but it makes perfect sense, pretty amazing when you think about it.

So I'm going to be doing a run of water agar this weekend. I'm just now starting to get clean transfers worth using. So basically you will have a water agar solution with myc growing in it. Then take a biopsy from a clean nutritious agar plate and inject it into an area of the solution away from the myc cloud. So that the myc will seek out the nutritious agar and grow?


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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Rotnpins] * 1
    #27921106 - 08/27/22 11:41 AM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rotnpins said:
Thanks p9, I think this experiment would make a great addition to this thread :super:




Excellent, I'll be watching :popcorn:

Here are some notes that I've taken on apical elongation, foraging and nutrient exploitation of mycelium. Might be helpful,  might not.

-exploratory phase ahead of a persistent exploitative phase when external supplies are maximal, and maximal when these supplies are depleted.

-Migratory hyphae exhibit 'foraging strategies (Rhizomorphic shoestrings)

-circumstance-driven development (resource dependent morphology? Flocculent vs Rhizo vs tomentose)

-A foraging experiment basically consists of placing a mycelial inoculum on a non nutritive medium like water agar, introducing nutrient discreet nutritive resource packets which can only have access to by forming connections across nonnutritive domain. (Perform water agar experiments to show morphological correlation and to facilitate cleaning)


-"Hyphal aggregation may fulfil migratory or connective roles in the case of rhizomorphs and mycelial cords which, being corporate structures, are often capable of far more rapid extension than individual hyphae, whilst exhibiting parallel patterns of branching and anastomosis"
Versatility and degeneracy p.25

-It is also arguable that without the ability to alternate exploratory and exploitative phases, mycelial margins would be unable, as they do, to maintain a constant rate of extension in more than one dimension without becoming progressively more sparse. The latter would follow from the inability of lateral branches to infill between leader hyphae that are already at maximum extension rate.
An illustration of how the interdependence between exploration and exploitation may work in practice is provided by the leaf-litter-decomposing basidiomycete, Clitocybe nebularis (Dowson et al., 1989a). The mycelium of this fungus consists of a 'fairy ring' with exploratory mycelial cords at its outer margin behind which is a zone of diffuse, exploitative mycelium in which bleaching of the leaf litter occurs. If the exploratory cords enter barren domain greater than the width of the annulus, the cords cease extension, the exploitative phase is not produced and a persistent gap forms in the ring. Maintenance of exploration therefore allows the colony to expand its boundaries, but can only be sustained by exploitation over relatively small distances.

-The central issue with respect to efficient resource allocation in such organisms is whether to broadcast exploratory mycelium sparsely but over a long range or more densely over a shorter range. Generally, long-range foraging is most appropriate when resources are widely scattered, but large, whereas short-range foraging is more effective amidst smaller but more frequent
resources, and also ensures that the fungus will remain within the vicinity of a large resource.


-exploratory mycelium may be thin (Flocculent) and  sparse (tomentose) whereas exploitative mycelium is dense (Rhizomorphs?)

-superior availability in inocula (healthy axenic mycelia) leads to an increase in the fractal dimension of mycelial outgrowth (Bolton and Boddy, 1993). The latter increase can lead in its turn to enhancement of lateral anastomoses and thereby to greater persistence and distributive capacity of initially explorative mycelium.


Edited by Stipe-n Cap (08/27/22 12:47 PM)


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OfflineRotnpins
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Cob] * 1
    #27921241 - 08/27/22 01:17 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cob said:
That's interesting, I've seen mushrooms and myc behave in the manner you're speaking of. I just never thought about it this way before but it makes perfect sense, pretty amazing when you think about it.

So I'm going to be doing a run of water agar this weekend. I'm just now starting to get clean transfers worth using. So basically you will have a water agar solution with myc growing in it. Then take a biopsy from a clean nutritious agar plate and inject it into an area of the solution away from the myc cloud. So that the myc will seek out the nutritious agar and grow?





P9 has a more in depth description in the post above. In summary, you would take a mycelium sample from a wild mushroom or a contaminated plate, and place it on the water agar plate. Then you would take a small sample of nutritional agar from a clean plate, and place it on the water agar plate, in hopes that the mycelial colony would venture toward that sample, seeking food, rather than stretching out in all directions.

I'll have to re read his post, bit from what I gathered, this could be highly beneficial to the mycelium rather than weakening itself and wasting its resources by stretching out in all directions.

(Note that this is just my interpretation, I could be off about a few things)


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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Rotnpins] * 3
    #27921291 - 08/27/22 01:49 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Yup that's basically it.

When there are ample environmental resources the mycelium will be in an exploitation phase of growth, minimal requirement for exploratory growth;

Water agar is void of nutritional resourse which will trigger the mycelium to enter exploratory phase;

By adding a discrete resource packet we may be able to direct the exploratory growth in one direction, while bacteria, etc, remain mostly in place.

Might even be able to correlate visual growth patterns like tomentose/rhizomorphs to phases of growth in real time which would be cool as well. Rhizomorphs being aggregate structures formed for exploratory hyphal elongation...this is the Hypothesis at least.

I don't mean to hijack, but seems like an awesome way to expand on the water agar topic.

I'll stop interfering and let you do your thing, I'll be following along with interest.


Edited by Stipe-n Cap (08/27/22 02:01 PM)


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OfflineThe Tao
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27921386 - 08/27/22 02:43 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

This is similar to drug sensitivity studies where an organism of interest is challenged by various antibiotic discs on a culture plate.
But in reverse.


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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27921595 - 08/27/22 05:09 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

That's a pretty good idea. From what I've read before that the rhizomorphic mycelium stretches to find nutrients. Yeah I'm just learning now about WA and how you can clean up your mycelium from contamination. Done a transfer today in PDA because of black mold but got the outer edge where it wasn't. Wished I would've know about it before I started my PDA this morning. 🤦  We will see if the transfer works on PDA. If not, WA time!


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OfflineRotnpins
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Re: Let's talk about Water Agar!! 💧 [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27921748 - 08/27/22 07:34 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
I don't mean to hijack, but seems like an awesome way to expand on the water agar topic.






Not at all, glad to have you or anyone else share their thoughts and ideas as long as they're on topic, which this idea definitely is. I look forward to testing this, as well as many other applications for water agar.


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