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SirTripAlot
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Intersection of politics and economy
#27878518 - 07/26/22 09:05 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Is it possible to separate the two?
For instance, many economic issues are seen through political beliefs. For example, some people are against government interference. They prefer policies thay reduce or elimiate governmental intervention. Just like the concept of supply side economics, which cum shots private ownership and deregulation.
Conversely, some economists may have a preference for equality / diversification in an economy and dont mind government intervention/ policies to that end.
How does one decipher a political bias from ecomonic data? Can there be a pure political ideology void of ecomonic considerations? Can there be a standard ecomonic model, notwithstanding a political belief?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#27878800 - 07/27/22 05:56 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Is it possible to separate the two
No. And that’s why democracy won’t ever be achieved when economic production is held in private hands.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27878811 - 07/27/22 06:10 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Let's say economic production is held in a collective or government hands. What makes this trump the private sector?
What kinds of pitfalls (for instance, greed) does the government become immune to? In this case, it wouldn't be an intersection, but a complete vertical integration.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#27878819 - 07/27/22 06:25 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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What makes the private sector good to begin with?
We decided, for the most part, as a species that cooperation and collective responsibility is beneficial to the good of the species, both as a whole and for individuals. We managed to collectivize some mechanisms (like which ruler to vote for) and not others (like who does that elected ruler truly serve). Democratizing the economy is just the next step.
I will never understand this kneejerk appeal to human nature. “Well people are greedy and prone to corruption, so that’s why we need an economic system that exacerbates our worst qualities.” It would be like looking at our innate desire to reproduce and warning of the propensity for rape and sexual violence, and attempt to mitigate this by replicating The Handmaids Tale.
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Edited by The Ecstatic (07/27/22 06:43 AM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27878847 - 07/27/22 07:04 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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I will concede the rags to richs stories are true but not as prevalent as they are portrayed. If I had to pick, it would be innovation in the private sector. What goods or services has the government innovated?
If a government fails, wouldnt an economy remain (some sort)? If an economy fails, wouldnt the government remain (albeit, weak)?...but if a government controled economy fails, would the government remain?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (07/27/22 07:05 AM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#27878852 - 07/27/22 07:10 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Capitalism in its current form only exists due to government intervention. The Fed constantly pumping money into the private sector, enormous subsidies, tariffs and other protectionism, straight up ignoring regulations and labor law, etc.
What has the public sector ever innovated? Oh idk. The internet. The space program. Covid vaccines. Basically everything worth a damn to society.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27878915 - 07/27/22 08:11 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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..... capitalism will exist without any intervention. Certainly, a market would.....the current form we have now, is due to government intervention. If there was none, a capitalistic system would run amuck but we both know that already....the extent it has already run amuck, is debatable.
The FED will raise .75, prime lending rate......thats my bet anyway, to curb inflation. Now, technically thats not the government. The Fed Reserve is 12 banks...but an act of Congress made this body. President also nominates chairman and Senate confirms. There is a segregation, but it seems thin.
If the government was in control of all the above, how would it be different?
Anyway, it seems the US economy and the US government are inseparable and need each other to coexist but a segregation is nessecary to ensure each others survival.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (07/27/22 08:12 AM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#27878951 - 07/27/22 09:10 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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The banks working with Congress to give themselves money to prevent a recession (that they both caused to varying degrees) is a perfect example of why the idea of capitalism being “a free market” is absolute nonsense.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27879426 - 07/27/22 03:59 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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I agree, there is no true "free market" without governance, not aware of one without. And yet, the US has successfully positioned itself and remained the reserve currency. With all of the pitfalls, the greenback remains the standard. There is something that it's doing right.
In your opinion, how would a communist economy operate when it comes to fiscal policy? Wouldn't the government have to cut and raise interest rates?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (07/27/22 05:10 PM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: SirTripAlot]
#27880079 - 07/28/22 06:27 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Here is an example..... a recession is normally defined as loss of GDP for two quarters.....as such an offical recession is identified, after it occurs, not during.
Now, two quarters of loss in GDP is not a recession? Recession is a politcal word, as well?
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/27/us-economy-probably-barely-grew-last-quarter-and-may-have-contracted.html
The sluggish growth forecasts follow the 1.6% decline in the first quarter. But there are plenty of forecasts for a shrinking economy, including the Atlanta Fed’s GDP Now tracker, which has negative 1.2% for the second quarter.
That would make it the second negative GDP report in a row, one of the signals that the economy is in recession. However, economists are careful to point out that the strong labor market and other factors make a recession unlikely for now. They also note the National Bureau of Economic Research, the official arbiter of recession calls, also is not expected to declare one now.
Fed Chairman Jerome Powell Wednesday said he does not believe the economy is in a recession.
“Let’s say it’s negative. The headline everywhere is going to be ‘recession.’ That’s not how the markets think about it, but you’ll see people screaming ‘recession,’” said Michael Schumacher, head of macro strategy at Wells Fargo. “Then there will be a debate about it. ... It will matter more to the political types than the market.”
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: SirTripAlot] 1
#27880204 - 07/28/22 09:08 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I agree, there is no true "free market" without governance, not aware of one without. And yet, the US has successfully positioned itself and remained the reserve currency. With all of the pitfalls, the greenback remains the standard. There is something that it's doing right.
In your opinion, how would a communist economy operate when it comes to fiscal policy? Wouldn't the government have to cut and raise interest rates?
“There is something that it’s doing right.”
Yeah it waited until Europe was a smoldering pile of rubble and then Bretton Woods happened, and then our (the only capitalist superpower in existence) military worked its ass off to defeat communism.
As for your question, yeah I mean you can’t just ignore fiscal responsibility as a communist state. Material conditions are like the backbone of Marxist thought.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27880619 - 07/28/22 04:09 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Maybe I should have said "effective " rather than "right".
I do see how the Biden admin doesn't want to say recession even though technically we are in one. That's always been a dirty word for presidents.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: SirTripAlot]
#27880639 - 07/28/22 04:28 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Optics matter. If you convince enough people that the sky is falling, it falls. If you convince enough people that they have nothing to fear etc. they put their heads down and muddle through.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: ballsalsa]
#27880687 - 07/28/22 05:08 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Indeed, the hoopla about the consumer confidence idex is no joke.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: SirTripAlot]
#27881036 - 07/28/22 08:43 PM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Is it possible to separate the two?
How does one decipher a political bias from ecomonic data? Can there be a pure political ideology void of ecomonic considerations? Can there be a standard ecomonic model, notwithstanding a political belief?
I think the root words of both gives some insight - oikonomía 'management of a household', and polítēs 'citizen'. One of the things that concerns the citizen is how the household/state is managed. How could these concepts ever be divorced?
To kinda go through your questions rapid fire...
Economic data isn't free from bias either, and I think the better approach is to go in with the understanding that humans systems of organisation are chaotic systems; and although general patterns can sometimes be gleaned, the idea we've been sold where economists are able to reliably predict the future is a lie. We don't separate the bias from the data, we accept that this can't be completely separated.
Politics void of economics? The only thing I can think of would be the philosophy of an absolute ascetic renunciate who leaves every matter of an economic nature up to faith/chance. Otherwise, homogeneity in economic considerations isn't the same thing as void of economic considerations.
This last question returns to my answer to the question about bias and data. Sure, there can be a standard economic model - many nation-states , especially on the more authoritarian side of the scale, have demonstrated what a standard economic model can look like - but these have all proven impermanent over a long enough timespan. The question I think you're asking is 'can there be a one best economic model' - and I just start thinking about the chaotic nature of human systems. How do we create a standard for an unpredictable system? No, I believe just the opposite - in an unwillingness to believe any single economic model could ever be sufficient - in fact, I think we would do best to create a model that allows space for a plurality of economic models. What we could do though, at least imo, is use certain values - let's say... equality and liberty - as guiding principles where any economic models that fall outside - like the dictorships of equality without liberty, or the exploitation of liberty without equality - are refused, but anything from within is accepted.
___ ___ ___Quote:
“Prediction is power.” — Auguste Comte, father of sociology
Since the Enlightenment, politicians have attempted to use scientific principles in politics and economics in order to control the populace. The arrogance of sociologists, economists, and other such experts is clear in their belief that human desire can be measured, ordered, and thus controlled. The attempts to predict and control all possibilities have long been the wet dream of totalitarians and advertising executives worldwide. Since Marx, who fancied himself a “scientist of mass behavior,” revolutionary vanguardists of all stripes have believed that they have discovered the perfect equation for revolution: a paint-by-numbers approach to social change. Both professional politicians and professional revolutionaries struggle to become consummate experts at manipulating the political machine; the actual politicians just happen to be better at this than their activist cousins. It’s no surprise that the sociologists of revolution, earnest college Marxists, and the anarcho-literati are so enamored with platforms, policies, history, and dry theories. Unfortunately for them, and fortunately for us, chaos refuses to play by any rules.
- Anarchy in the Age of Dinosaurs
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Enlil
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27881216 - 07/29/22 12:10 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Is it possible to separate the two
No. And that’s why democracy won’t ever be achieved when economic production is held in private hands.
Why would anyone want democracy? It's pretty well-established that it's an unworkable system.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: Enlil] 1
#27881241 - 07/29/22 01:03 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Democracy – As Oscar Wilde put it, “The bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people.” A system that promises everyone the opportunity to rule everyone else, yet renders no one free.
Our forebears overthrew kings and dictators, but they didn’t abolish the institutions by which kings and dictators ruled: they democratized them. Yet whoever operates these institutions—be it a king, a president, or an electorate—the experience on the receiving end is roughly the same. Laws, bureaucracy, and police came before democracy; in democracy as in dictatorship, they function to interrupt self-determination. The only difference is that, because we can cast ballots about how they should be applied, we’re supposed to regard them as ours even when they’re used against us.
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Three wolves and six goats are discussing what to have for dinner. One courageous goat makes an impassioned case: “We should put it to a vote!” The other goats fear for his life, but surprisingly, the wolves acquiesce. But when everyone is preparing to vote, the wolves take three of the goats aside. “Vote with us to make the other three goats dinner,” they threaten. “Otherwise, vote or no vote, we’ll eat you.” The other three goats are shocked by the outcome of the election: a majority, including their comrades, has voted for them to be killed and eaten. They protest in outrage and terror, but the goat who first suggested the vote rebukes them: “Just be thankful this is a democracy! At least we got to have a say!”
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Brian Jones
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: Enlil]
#27881375 - 07/29/22 06:38 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Is it possible to separate the two
No. And that’s why democracy won’t ever be achieved when economic production is held in private hands.
Why would anyone want democracy? It's pretty well-established that it's an unworkable system.
Yes, it's extremely flawed.
And still desirable compared to real world alternatives. I prefer social democratic systems, which are still more capitalist than not, but I doubt they would have survived without the U.S.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: Enlil]
#27881537 - 07/29/22 09:50 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Is it possible to separate the two
No. And that’s why democracy won’t ever be achieved when economic production is held in private hands.
Why would anyone want democracy? It's pretty well-established that it's an unworkable system.
Unworkable in the context of global capitalism, yes.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intersection of politics and economy [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27881540 - 07/29/22 09:54 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
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He's just playing games. He means absolute democracy where everybody votes on everything is unworkable beyond a fairly small group size. That's how I read it, anyway. I've been wrong once or twice.
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