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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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You hate Socialism because the media told you to. * 1
    #27866558 - 07/17/22 04:45 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Discuss intelligently.


:thinker:


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: Baby_Hitler] * 4
    #27866600 - 07/17/22 05:35 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

It seems like not everyone uses the term in the same way. A lot of dictionaries will define it as something that is more or less what most North Americans would think of as communism. A common feature of such definitions seems to be collective ownership of just about everything. I feel like these sorts of systems have been tried (e.g. in the USSR) and proved to be unworkable. Too much centralization and potential for corruption. Socialism in this sense is often claimed to exist only in transition to communism, and in "true" communism the state supposedly would not exist at all any more.

I think the idea of workers owning the means of production is not all bad, just a bad idea to do across the board at the national level. At a worker owned cooperative, the workers own the means of production and people who like that idea can vote with their wallets and choose to work for and do business with those companies.

Then you have "socialism" as someone like Bernie Sanders would use the term, something that might be described more clearly as social democracy. Capitalism with a strong social safety net, and in some cases certain industries like resource extraction will be nationalized and help to fund the government. But I think people in the countries Sanders might describe as being "socialist" in many cases would balk at their countries being described in that way.


Regarding the "the media told you to" point, it seems like cynical commentators will play fast and loose with these two very different definitions of the term, or paint social democracy type ideas as a slippery slope to Soviet style socialism.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: psi]
    #27866899 - 07/17/22 09:39 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

The media couldn't shut up about how bad socialism/communism was for decades.

I guess that was back when you could trust the media.

:batlol:


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: Baby_Hitler] * 1
    #27866918 - 07/17/22 10:05 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

The media is owned by capitalists. What do you expect? The US has like three widely consumed noncapitalized media sources and at least one pretty much walks the line of capitilist counterpart. At a minimum they are fairly active in promoting state run activities not unlike the regular media. None of the socialized sources reach audiences comparable to Fox Entertainment. Though they don't have shows like Tucker Carlson (Employed not by the real-ish news [the one they try to make actually report real news] but by the entertainment branch) where they just preach nonsense to drive profit. Given this outlook, what is bound to happen? Keep in mind, cable networks are not regulated by the FCC. And of course opinion pieces don't count, so those aren't accountable either, day time/over air or otherwise. Certain posters here have bitched about regulations on news being true, censorship. Tucker Carlson for example is not subject to regulation because his show is cable only. The only reasonable recourse is suing people. Let's hope Tucker and the Fox Entertainment Lawyers find themselves in court a few more times for all the made up bullshit they have created. You don't see NPR in court...

Oh, yep. Here we are.

Business loves handouts. The people love various forms of socialism (we have a great military industrial complex). The suckers of the world have no idea how any of this works because they were too lazy to understand it.

Anyways, people in the US hate the word socialism but love it in practice. We should rebrand it into "freedom-care" or something. It's just dumb enough to work. The capitalists would have to get on board. You can't hate freedom, especially not in one of the least free nations in the world.


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Edited by christopera (07/17/22 10:09 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: psi] * 3
    #27868623 - 07/19/22 07:38 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

The best way to explain socialism to Americans is to call it democracy in the workplace. Expropriation, abolishing private property, an emboldened state authority, these things scare the western mind because state power has only ever been wielded by capitalists in their lifetimes.

“You know how we all (ostensibly) collectively decide what happens with our political system? We should all be collectively deciding what happens with our economic system, too.”

Easy.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27868632 - 07/19/22 07:52 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

What does "abolishing private property " mean to you ? What would it mean to people like me that own property ?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: Psilynut2] * 4
    #27868638 - 07/19/22 07:58 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

It means no longer allowing people to dictate the terms of our lives because their grandfather found oil in Texas or was rich enough to control a monopoly on insulin production.

And there’s a distinction between private property and personal property. Nobody wants to take your house or your toothbrush, we want your factories and your oil refineries.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27868665 - 07/19/22 08:46 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

What about my rental house and my hunting property in Wyoming ?  Surly you must envision some kind of limit on my individual exceptionalism .


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: Psilynut2] * 4
    #27868696 - 07/19/22 09:36 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

So long as everyone has their basic necessities met I don’t see why vacation residences or hunting lodges wouldn’t exist. The goal is to reduce or eliminate the artificial scarcity conjured into existence by capitalism. If the goal isn’t to maximize the enjoyment of life for all people, then there isn’t a point to society. You are where you are in life because the material conditions you’ve experienced. Something tells me you wouldn’t have a rental home or a hunting property based on your individual exceptionalism if you were born in Slovenia, or even in the US but grew up in the foster system or with shit family, or as a minority or trans, etc. It’s all luck and circumstance.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #27868719 - 07/19/22 10:03 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
It means no longer allowing people to dictate the terms of our lives because their grandfather found oil in Texas or was rich enough to control a monopoly on insulin production.

And there’s a distinction between private property and personal property. Nobody wants to take your house or your toothbrush, we want your factories and your oil refineries.




That worked out great in Venezuela 🙄


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“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27868722 - 07/19/22 10:08 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

What makes you think my family didn't suck ?
  I got married when I was 22 , to a poor Colombian girl , two months later my car got repossessed .
  We literally started our lives with 2 suitcases full of cloths and minimum wage jobs . We didn't even have a tv .
      I wish I could say someone gave us something , no one did though .


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OfflineCrafty
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: koods] * 2
    #27868738 - 07/19/22 10:39 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

9 years of U.S. economic sanctions is what broke the back of Venezuela. It wasn’t the nationalization of oil


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:tongue2:Is this still permitted?:tongue2:

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: koods] * 3
    #27868748 - 07/19/22 10:45 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
It means no longer allowing people to dictate the terms of our lives because their grandfather found oil in Texas or was rich enough to control a monopoly on insulin production.

And there’s a distinction between private property and personal property. Nobody wants to take your house or your toothbrush, we want your factories and your oil refineries.




That worked out great in Venezuela 🙄




France’s state owns a larger share of its economy than Venezuela does. Venezuela just happens to be a petrostate in the crosshairs of a multigenerational US regime change operation. Aren’t you one of the “let’s sanction Russia to death” guys? Now you’re gonna pretend they have no meaningful economic effect? Or were you simply ignorant to the state of affairs?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: Psilynut2] * 4
    #27868750 - 07/19/22 10:48 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
What makes you think my family didn't suck ?
  I got married when I was 22 , to a poor Colombian girl , two months later my car got repossessed .
  We literally started our lives with 2 suitcases full of cloths and minimum wage jobs . We didn't even have a tv .
      I wish I could say someone gave us something , no one did though .




Someone gave you white skin and birthright citizenship in the imperial core. Don’t sidestep what you know to be true: you are incredibly lucky the circumstances of your life are substantially better than even the AVERAGE human, let alone a racial minority in a nation of extreme poverty. You didn’t earn the circumstances of your birth, which dictate far more of your existing circumstances than any imagined hard work ethic.

People who believe in meritocracy kill me.

Average household income in the US: $67,500
Average household income in Indonesia: $800


You think the average American just has 80 times the smarts and work ethic than the average Indonesian has? Come the fuck on.


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OfflineCrafty
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 3
    #27868753 - 07/19/22 10:52 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

This guy (Koods) is advertising himself as a neo-Marxist radical when he’s just your average middle-of-the-road, centrist, neolib.

The Overton Window is a bitch and it’s moving at blinding speed. Liberals will roll over and accommodate every rightward jolt.


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:tongue2:Is this still permitted?:tongue2:

Edited by Crafty (07/19/22 10:55 AM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: Crafty] * 1
    #27868758 - 07/19/22 10:58 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Much like the MAGA crowd, koods loves the aesthetic of being a bad boy political rebel with none of the actual ideology.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: Crafty]
    #27868766 - 07/19/22 11:11 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Crafty said:
This guy (Koods) is advertising himself as a neo-Marxist radical when he’s just your average middle-of-the-road, centrist, neolib.




No, I think it's more that someone else here said that about him and he found it so ridiculous that he added it to his signature ironically.

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OfflineCrafty
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: psi]
    #27868774 - 07/19/22 11:17 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

That explains it. He’s parroting Republican talking points


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:tongue2:Is this still permitted?:tongue2:

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Invisiblepsi
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: Crafty] * 1
    #27868781 - 07/19/22 11:23 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

In this case you could argue that but in general his views seem to line up with the Democrat mainstream. In favor of a mostly capitalist system but socially liberal.

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OfflineCrafty
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Re: You hate Socialism because the media told you to. [Re: psi] * 2
    #27868786 - 07/19/22 11:26 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

I understand that identity politics tries to convince us that the economic and social are detachable, but they really aren’t.


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:tongue2:Is this still permitted?:tongue2:

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