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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2804714 - 06/18/04 08:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

what you are suggesting is not a replacement for the state, but a different type of legislative process. there would still need to be a state to enforce the laws, defend the nation from external threats, objectively determine guilt in criminal cases, and settle civil disputes.

there would still be a state, and it would exist only to make law the will of the majority.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2806643 - 06/18/04 07:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

by doctored I was overstrengthening the word amendment - which, if the constitution was so perfect, would never have to be done.

The whitehouse itself uses 'democracy' in the way you despise, and over rides the hallowed constitution with novel legislature....a tragic state of affairs indead


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: BleaK]
    #2806654 - 06/18/04 07:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

that's the scary thing about giving everyone power - it's almost communism....(with a phat dollop of capitalism, a tasty slice of tribalism and a tiny bit of anarchy)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2806664 - 06/18/04 07:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

by doctored I was overstrengthening the word amendment - which, if the constitution was so perfect, would never have to be done.




Nice attempt at a backtrack.


Quote:

overstrengthening



I think exaggerating is the word you were looking for.


Quote:

The whitehouse itself uses 'democracy' in the way you despise, and over rides the hallowed constitution with novel legislature....a tragic state of affairs indead



Accurate enough.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2808317 - 06/19/04 06:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

For once you made a sensible reply!

I'm sorry I got carried away with my language in describing the changes made to the constitution - but the metaphors I used still well describe the process.

If the constitution was so perfect - why the need to 'amend' it?

If the constitution has any strength - how is it possible it is so easily overidden by novel legislature?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2808322 - 06/19/04 06:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No, for once you made a sensible statement.

And it's not easy to amend. There are thousands of laws yet few additions to the B.O.R., If it were easy and with the tendancy of the Feds to keep on passing laws, if it were easy do you think that in 230+ years there would be so few?

and it get's amended because times change.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2808469 - 06/19/04 10:52 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

there would still be a state, and it would exist only to make law the will of the majority.




And you would still prefer a tyranny of the minority?


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Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2808486 - 06/19/04 11:09 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

And you would still prefer a tyranny of the minority?

i'd prefer no tyranny at all, and limiting the government by democratic selection and internal checks and balances does a far better job of limiting the growth and power of the state than entrusting it to either a small elite group of leaders or a pure democraticy.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2816200 - 06/22/04 06:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Thats a massive asssumption. Try backing it up.


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Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2816204 - 06/22/04 06:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Thats a massive asssumption. Try backing it up.



See the United States of America and its Constitution for examples.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2816207 - 06/22/04 07:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly

Times change, times change


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2816208 - 06/22/04 07:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Whats your point? As far as im concerned the constitution is in no way better than a well constructed and carried out system of open democracy.
Any merit the constitution has would only be incremented by opening it up and giving people more influence in the democratic process.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2816356 - 06/22/04 08:51 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The point of the Constitution (any constitution setting out the terms under which a government operates, not just the US Constitution) is that it places limits on governmental powers. A constitution describes specifically the actions a government may undertake. If an action is not in the constitution, it is forbidden to government.

The problem with "opening up" the constitution, or replacing it (as you seem to be suggesting) with a system of "open democracy" is that there would be no restriction on the limitation of government power -- no line drawn in the sand over which government may not cross. Whatever happens to catch the fancy of a majority of the populace on a given day, whatever fashionable notion is in vogue at the time, suddenly has the potential to become government business. Tacking additional things onto the list of things which governments may do does nothing to help people, but it sure helps out power-seekers.

Because even governments are smart enough to realize this, the tendency lately has been to create constitutions that are laundry lists of increasing length. Take the EU constitution as an example -- 230 pages of every pseudo-"right" under the sun and they're not done yet.

The problem with open democracy is that there are no underlying principles restricting government power. It's a mob rule situation.

pinky


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