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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2794180 - 06/15/04 09:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

A retribalised population, made up of many subcultures interacting and co-existing in a cohesive whole. Viewpoints will be more varied and society will be less unipolar, but I think that will be a good thing.

Society is already ruled by special interest group, corporate interest.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2794252 - 06/15/04 10:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I explained why in the second half of my post. Although I suppose they could simply opt out of the health system if they choose.

However on matters such as whether a country goes to war and on environmental issues etc the will of the majority should not be overruled by the rights of the individual as effectively this would infringe upon the rights of many individuals. Something that would surely be offensive to your libertarian sensibilities!


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Offlinegrib
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2794495 - 06/15/04 11:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:

It doesn't if they keep the Constitution and its checks and balances...




Along that line, here's an article:


Torture, War, and Presidential Powers
by Rep. Ron Paul

A Wall Street Journal article last week detailed a Department of Defense memo that discusses the legality of interrogation and torture methods in the wake of events at Abu Ghraib. The document reportedly advises that the president has authority to order almost any action, including physical or psychological torture, despite federal laws to the contrary. The Pentagon lawyers who drafted the memo were not shy about blatantly asserting that the Commander-in-Chief can break the law when necessary, as evidenced by this quote from the memo: "Sometimes the greater good for society will be accomplished by violating the literal language of the criminal law."

The Justice Department, for its part, is depressingly silent on the issue. Attorney General Ashcroft refuses to release an existing Justice Department memo on the matter to Congress. Why can't the American people, much less Congress, see how the Justice Department interprets presidential powers and federal torture laws? Why the secrecy? The Justice Department is charged with enforcing federal laws, not suspending them or advising federal agencies to ignore them.

Legal issues aside, the American people and government should never abide the use of torture by our military or intelligence agencies. A decent society never accepts or justifies torture. It dehumanizes both torturer and victim, yet seldom produces reliable intelligence. Torture by rogue American troops or agents puts all Americans at risk, especially our rank-and-file soldiers stationed in dozens of dangerous places around the globe. God forbid terrorists take American soldiers or travelers hostage and torture them as some kind of sick retaliation for Abu Ghraib.

The greater issue presented by the Defense Department memo, however, is the threat posed by unchecked executive power. Defense Department lawyers essentially argue that a president's powers as Commander-in-Chief override federal laws prohibiting torture, and the Justice Department appears to agree. But the argument for extraordinary wartime executive powers has been made time and time again, always with bad results and the loss of our liberties. War has been used by presidents to excuse the imprisonment of American citizens of Japanese descent, to silence speech, to suspend habeas corpus, and even to control entire private industries.

It is precisely during times of relative crisis that we should adhere most closely to the Constitution, not abandon it. War does not justify the suspension of torture laws any more than it justifies the suspension of murder laws, the suspension of due process, or the suspension of the Second amendment.

We are fighting undeclared wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and an open-ended war against terrorism worldwide. If the president claims extraordinary wartime powers, and we fight undeclared wars with no beginning and no end, when if ever will those extraordinary powers lapse? Since terrorism will never be eliminated completely, should all future presidents be able to act without regard to Congress or the Constitution simply by asserting "We're at war"?

Conservatives should understand that the power given the president today will pass to the president's successors, who may be only too eager to abuse that unbridled power domestically to destroy their political enemies. Remember the anger directed at President Clinton for acting "above the law" when it came to federal perjury charges? An imperial presidency threatens all of us who oppose unlimited state power over our lives.

A strong separation of powers is at the heart of our constitutional liberties. No branch of government should be able to act unilaterally, no matter how cumbersome the legislative process may be. The beauty of the Constitution is that it encourages some degree of gridlock in government, making it harder for any branch to act capriciously or secretly. When we give any president - one man - too much power, we build a foundation for future tyranny.


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2794496 - 06/15/04 11:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

People should have power over their own lives and none other(with some exceptions, such as children).




Do you agree that decisions need to be made that will effect many people?



Affect? Yes. Control(outside of simply keeping the peace)? Absolutely not.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2794937 - 06/15/04 02:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ok so these decisions that effect everyone, for instance foreign policy, environmental issues etc would you object to them being decided by the will of the majority rather than the will of a minority who are easiliy corrupted by other powerful minorities with special interests etc?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2795510 - 06/15/04 04:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

instead of this pathetic facade.



Except the US is not, never was, nor was it intended to be a democracy. It is a constitutionally limited republic.

The only place it is a pathetic charade is in the minds of those too foolish to understand what form of government we actually have.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2796154 - 06/15/04 09:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

how could the guarantee of our natural rights, and the guarantee that the government can't take them away from us be outdated?




For a start Natural rights dont exist.





lol, for a start you are WRONG. America is the only country in the world that guarantees every citizen natural rights, not constituional rights, but natural rights. Constitutional implies that the government can take them away from you, natural means they are already assumed. Sure, other nations make have similar freedoms like American's, but these rights are 'pleasure given' by the government, they didn't have to give those rights, and they very may well take them away, it's not like it hasn't happened before.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: chodamunky]
    #2797956 - 06/16/04 06:14 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Im mot saying people cant have rights but there are no rights that just exist independent of human thought which is what some people are referring to when they talk about natural rights. As a human we are not owed anything by anyone. Whetjer we decide to bestow rights upon each other is a matter for our own good conscience but it has nothing to do with universe at large.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2798757 - 06/16/04 01:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

:lol:

A constitution that has been doctored, and doctored, undermined and adjusted. And in fact over ridden by laws that are only a matter of months old!
That's a solid piece of legislature for sure!

:lol:

So America is not a democracy, yet it wants to force Iraq into being one...?

GWB:'Helping construct a stable democracy after decades of dictatorship is a massive undertaking.'

So what's happening? 

Sure there is no such thing as a real 'democracy' going in the west. If there we're it would only be the heads of households that vote. However democracy has become a word that is generally understood to mean: one adult one vote. And is used as such by politicians and people everywhere.


OK - love to stay and chat, gotta go tho joe.

'President Outlines Steps to Help Iraq Achieve Democracy and Freedom'


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040524-10.html

Let's play another word game shall we luvdemshrooms? Or shall we look behind the words at the reality?


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: grib]
    #2798772 - 06/16/04 01:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

GWB: 'We've also seen images of a young American facing decapitation. This vile display shows a contempt for all the rules of warfare, and all the bounds of civilized behavior. It reveals a fanaticism that was not caused by any action of ours'

But GWB is above the laws himself? And is free to break the 'bounds of civilised behaviour' and 'rules' of war......

What a knob jockey he is!

Look at your actions, your stance, the actions of your minions, oh and that bit of paper that says you can behead whomever you like....sheesh


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040524-10.html


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2798779 - 06/16/04 01:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

A constitution that has been doctored



By whom? Prove that the constitution I can view today isn't the one that was written.

Quote:

and doctored



Twice huh? Maybe you can back up the first claim.

Quote:

undermined



No shit.

Quote:

and adjusted.



Adjustments are at least legal, if not beneficial, if they work through the amendment process.

Quote:

And in fact over ridden by laws that are only a matter of months old!




A tragic state of affairs.

Quote:

That's a solid piece of legislature for sure!



The Constitution? It may be the finest humanity will ever see.

Quote:

So America is not a democracy, yet it wants to force Iraq into being one...?

GWB:'Helping construct a stable democracy after decades of dictatorship is a massive undertaking.'




It's extremely irritating when America or potential future Iraq is described as a Democracy but I think it's pretty clear at this point that Democracy means simply citizens get to vote on something. True democracy has to have the prefix 'direct' to mean what you think it means.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: chodamunky]
    #2798784 - 06/16/04 01:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The government 'guarantees every citizen natural rights'

So the USA is governed by Mother Nature herself and her cronies? I must have missed something at the last election.

Maybe they should legalise Nature, not pretend to be the issuers of the dictates of Nature.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2798787 - 06/16/04 01:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The constitution recognizes that natural rights exist. Government is ordained and established by the people in order to SECURE those rights among citizens.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2799141 - 06/16/04 03:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
:lol:

A constitution that has been doctored, and doctored, undermined and adjusted. And in fact over ridden by laws that are only a matter of months old!
That's a solid piece of legislature for sure!

:lol:

So America is not a democracy, yet it wants to force Iraq into being one...?

GWB:'Helping construct a stable democracy after decades of dictatorship is a massive undertaking.'

So what's happening? 

Sure there is no such thing as a real 'democracy' going in the west. If there we're it would only be the heads of households that vote. However democracy has become a word that is generally understood to mean: one adult one vote. And is used as such by politicians and people everywhere.


OK - love to stay and chat, gotta go tho joe.

'President Outlines Steps to Help Iraq Achieve Democracy and Freedom'


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040524-10.html

Let's play another word game shall we luvdemshrooms? Or shall we look behind the words at the reality?




democray is newspeak for socialism.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2799661 - 06/16/04 05:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If somebody wishes to opt out as it is their right as an individual that is fine, but they should then be required to become truly individual i.e leave society.

why must it be an all or nothing affair? if someone would prefer to not pay for, or recieve, tax funded medical care, but they don't mind paying for things like national defense and roads, why should they have to "leave society" completely?

and what does it mean to "leave society"?

Although I suppose they could simply opt out of the health system if they choose.

as long as there was no penalty for doing so, other than being ineligible for socialized medical care, i wouldn't have a problem with that. it wouldn't work though.

However on matters such as whether a country goes to war and on environmental issues etc the will of the majority should not be overruled by the rights of the individual as effectively this would infringe upon the rights of many individuals.

it's funny that you mention that, because i think that environmental laws should be democratically determined. on the topic of warfare, i'd say it would be good for the people to have veto power perhaps, but we shouldn't actually start a war because a majority would like it.


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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2799664 - 06/16/04 05:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

A retribalised population, made up of many subcultures interacting and co-existing in a cohesive whole.

oh?

and how shall they be "retribalised"?

Society is already ruled by special interest group, corporate interest.

what do you expect should happen when you grant the government power to regulate the market?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2801552 - 06/17/04 08:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So you agree a system of open democracy is preferable regarding some issues. However you dont think a majority should decide whether we go to war, why do you trust a minority to make that decision on behalf of the majority?

What other areas do you think should not be entrusted to majority decision?


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2801643 - 06/17/04 09:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Society is already undergoing a retribalisation process. (Much to the dismay of central thought control). This is what the whole advent of the multitude of subcultures that have come to be is a major part of. And the diversification continues apace.

People are following their 'special' interests more and more. Everyone has special interests, pet cares etc. The old unipolar societies are becoming cultural melting pots. And the diversification possible when people are allowed to freely express these interests will allow society to broaden, adapt, and open up to a dazzling spectrum of cultural variety and development.

It is also time to take away the govenment's power to regulate the market - allow true free trade and world trade.


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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2803130 - 06/17/04 07:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

What other areas do you think should not be entrusted to majority decision?

as far as direct voter initiatives? environmental issues like pollution and natural resources are really it.

my take on democracy is this:

democracy is not a political end in itself. the state does not exist to make the will of the majority law. democracy does not exist to guide public policy, but to allow for the peaceful, popular removal of government officials.

this is why allowing the electorate to vote on issues and decide what action the state shall take doesn't sound too enticing to me. there are very few issues that are properly decided by the electorate. the state has a purpose, and it is not to make law the will of the majority. democracy exists to limit government power, not expand or legitimize it.


Edited by mushmaster (06/17/04 07:23 PM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2804675 - 06/18/04 07:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Why think of it in terms of the state? I am talking about replacing the state with a different form of organising principle that allows people to participate in making the decisions that effect their lives.

People should be allowed to vote on foreign policy, law making, welfare issues, education, economic policy, health issues, defence, taxation etc


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