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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2792822 - 06/14/04 05:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

checks and balances would be essential.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Vvellum]
    #2792827 - 06/14/04 05:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly. And checks and balances are inherently undemocratic.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2792847 - 06/14/04 05:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

why?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Vvellum]
    #2792858 - 06/14/04 05:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Because if the checks and balances are anything like they are now (judicial), the votes could be overturned. Thus the majority would not rule.

Unless you have some other form of checks and balances in mind.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Vvellum]
    #2792860 - 06/14/04 05:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
why?



Because it prevents the majority from imposing its will on others.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Vvellum]
    #2792866 - 06/14/04 05:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps my own definition of direct democracy is different than others. I just see it has turning government horizonatally rather than vertically and decentralizing authority into a confederation. This means delegates rather than representatives; this means a courier of a community's will rather than some distant expert a thousand miles away who makes decisions "on behalf" of others. This would require participation rather than passive, quasi-celebrity elections every four years of strangers.

that's all fine as long as there are strict rules (which are followed) regarding what sorts of things the legislature may and may not do. what this really means is that the will of the majority doesn't necessarily become law. the problem with delegates acting only as couriers of their community's will is that politicians will be elected on the basis of how many government benefits they can get funneled into their districts. it can turn into a gross vote buying scheme.

if you want to make government better, increasing the power of majority rule won't work any better than entrusting it to a central authority. you've got to limit it and restrict it. the #1 thing you've got to do is keep it small. you need checks and balances.

i'm not saying that democracy is incompatible with a limited government, only that democracy is not a political end in itself, nor is it always the best means.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2792916 - 06/14/04 06:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It doesn't if they keep the Constitution and its checks and balances, rather than getting rid of it like Gazzbutt suggested.




I merely said it was outdated. I dont advocate open democracy without checks and balances. At the end of the day open democracy gives each individual more power to influence the things that affect their lives. Surely as a libertarian you would welcome this?

Furthermore, if a majority of people want a certain thing why should they be denied it just because a minority does not want it and have to have their rights protected? (Please dont start banging on about slavery or racism etc as this would be covered by checks and balances)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2793029 - 06/14/04 06:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I merely said it was outdated. I dont advocate open democracy without checks and balances. At the end of the day open democracy gives each individual more power to influence the things that affect their lives. Surely as a libertarian you would welcome this?



People should have power over their own lives and none other(with some exceptions, such as children).

Quote:

Furthermore, if a majority of people want a certain thing why should they be denied it just because a minority does not want it and have to have their rights protected? (Please dont start banging on about slavery or racism etc as this would be covered by checks and balances)



If the majority want something that affects only their lives and doesn't force their will on others, I'm all for it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2793068 - 06/14/04 07:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
The constitution is outdated.




how could the guarantee of our natural rights, and the guarantee that the government can't take them away from us be outdated?


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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2793081 - 06/14/04 07:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

it's a sort of paradox. on one hand, there is almost nothing on which the majority opinion is justified as the final authority. the state has a legitimate role, and it is not to enforce the will of the majority. the legitimate role of the state is to preserve liberty. it doesn't matter if the majority wants to throw homosexuals and drug users in jail. it doesn't matter if they want to enslave minorities. it doesn't matter if they want to force everyone to pay for nationalized healthcare. on the other hand, i do believe that democracy has its place. if more than half the people are unhappy with their government, then i think something should probably change. this isn't necessarily because an unpopular government is always wrong, but because it makes the democratic process hopefully yet another check on government power.

i'm a supporter of democracy so long as it functions within reasonable limits, but even then, a constitution is amendable if enough people wish to amend it. i suppose there is no perfect state.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2793244 - 06/14/04 08:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

A VERY thought-provoking article. Thanks for posting this.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: chodamunky]
    #2794060 - 06/15/04 07:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

how could the guarantee of our natural rights, and the guarantee that the government can't take them away from us be outdated?




For a start Natural rights dont exist.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2794062 - 06/15/04 07:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

People should have power over their own lives and none other(with some exceptions, such as children).




Do you agree that decisions need to be made that will effect many people?


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Vvellum]
    #2794069 - 06/15/04 07:52 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Couldn't agree more.

The whole direction of human evolution is heading in this direction. It is the only logical way forward.

Democracy was born on the premise that more heads will make a better and more just decision for the majority than one head. Why stop now the irisistable path to self governance?
Why are people afraid of ruling themselves? The masses inhabit a country, the masses take it to be there own, the masses should be granted sovereignity, instead of this pathetic facade.



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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2794078 - 06/15/04 08:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

-'if you want to make government better, increasing the power of majority rule won't work any better than entrusting it to a central authority.'-

hmmm - seems to go against the grain of the principle that the people who invented demoracy came up with.


I personally believe politicians should be reduced not just to courriers, but actually to go further. They should be administrators, carrying out the will of the people. And the people should eventually be able to vote on all aspects of society they wish to, of course this will take many phases and stages to reach.

I agree that democracy is not the end point. Beyond all types of democracy, once we are ready I see an intelligent anarchy as the end point.

I call it 'end point' but for sure there must still be more after that since nothing stands still forever.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2794081 - 06/15/04 08:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

[quote it doesn't matter if they want to force everyone to pay for nationalized healthcare.




I disagree completely. If a majority decides that one of the requirements of membership of a society is that everyone pays for nationialised healthcare then that is what should happen. If somebody wishes to opt out as it is their right as an individual that is fine, but they should then be required to become truly individual i.e leave society.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: ]
    #2794082 - 06/15/04 08:07 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You say the legitimate role of the state is to preserve liberty, yet so few governments over the course of history take this responsibility into their hands.

Generally speaking the only reason governments abolish things like slavery is because the conscience of the masses demand it. And the government must react.


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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2794164 - 06/15/04 09:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I disagree completely. If a majority decides that one of the requirements of membership of a society is that everyone pays for nationialised healthcare then that is what should happen.

why?


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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2794167 - 06/15/04 09:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I personally believe politicians should be reduced not just to courriers, but actually to go further. They should be administrators, carrying out the will of the people. And the people should eventually be able to vote on all aspects of society they wish to, of course this will take many phases and stages to reach.

it will be a nation ruled by special interest groups.


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Anonymous

Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2794175 - 06/15/04 09:23 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You say the legitimate role of the state is to preserve liberty, yet so few governments over the course of history take this responsibility into their hands.

few have even attempted it, and none have succeeded 100%. there has never been and never will be a perfect state. while anarchy is preferable, government is inevitable. it is a necessary evil.


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