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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
The Coming American Dictatorship
    #2785874 - 06/11/04 07:36 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

The coming American dictatorship
Long but excellent article written in a very readable dialogue-based format. Outlines the founding of our country, the intentions of the framers, how we have come to where we are now, and where we are going.

?We have a Constitution that won?t let that happen? I said.

?The Constitution will still be there and not a word of it will be changed nor will it have been amended. It will remain in place, a showcase to the world, but it will mean nothing.?

?What?s happening that makes you feel that way?? Dave asked.

?We?re putting all the mechanisms in place that will make one possible. Two hundred years ago, our Founding Fathers had put as many obstacles as possible in the way of a dictatorship because they feared that unless there were obstacles, specifically, the safeguards in our Constitution, a dictatorship was inevitable.

?But even then, many of them weren?t optimistic about our chances. When Benjamin Franklin was leaving the Constitutional Convention, a Mrs. Powell of Philadelphia asked, ?Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?? Franklin replied, ?A republic if you can keep it.? He expressed the sentiment of many of the delegates.

?Today, as if we?re bent on proving the cynicism in Franklin?s reply was deserved, we?re ignoring?no, we?re actually throwing away?the safeguards hammered out among the delegates to that Convention. We?re not changing the wording or the intent of the Constitution, we?re just ignoring it.?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2786767 - 06/12/04 01:51 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

i dunno if id call this a dictatorship...

i think its closer to anarchy, but most people are too afraid to stand up and claim their own liberty.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2786780 - 06/12/04 01:57 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Bleak - I don't think I would consider this anywhere near anarchy.

Ancalagon - That was great read. More people should take the time for it. But it made me alot less hopeful. Interesting ideas for deliverance, but the light at the end of the tunnel seems more dim.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2786784 - 06/12/04 02:01 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Bleak - I don't think I would consider this anywhere near anarchy.

Ancalagon - That was great read. More people should take the time for it. But it made me alot less hopeful. Interesting ideas for deliverance, but the light at the end of the tunnel seems more dim.




i think it is anarchy in the sense that the powers that be do whatever they wish, we simply let them. we could also not let them.


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: BleaK]
    #2786874 - 06/12/04 02:32 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BleaK said:
i think it is anarchy in the sense that the powers that be do whatever they wish



That is statism, not anarchy. Anarchy is where the PEOPLE, not the state, may do whatever they wish.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2786898 - 06/12/04 02:43 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

BleaK said:
i think it is anarchy in the sense that the powers that be do whatever they wish



That is statism, not anarchy. Anarchy is where the PEOPLE, not the state, may do whatever they wish.




we may do whatever we wish.

the state is a large thug.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2786951 - 06/12/04 03:15 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Jury nullification of bad laws

?But there?s still one hope left. Historically, many bad laws have been countered in the courtrooms of America. It doesn?t take a majority to counter bad laws there.?

?Any specific examples?? Dave asked.

?Before the War Between the States, there was the Fugitive Slave Act, a federal law which ordered the return of runaway slaves to their masters in the slave states. However, the runaway slaves were entitled to trials and prosecutors soon discovered that, as the trials took place where the runaway slaves had fled?in the North?northern juries frequently ignored the law and voted their consciences allowing the slaves to remain free, despite federal law. It took only one person on a jury to hang the jury and block the return of a slave to his or her owner. This necessitated a retrial which slave owners didn?t like. But more often whole juries refused to rule against the return of the slaves, making a retrial impossible and ensuring the slave could remain free. It soon became all but impossible to enforce the runaway slave laws, at least until the southern states had a federal law passed that prohibited jury trials in these cases.

?Another good example comes from our grandparents? time. Prohibition was repealed because again and again government prosecutors couldn?t get convictions. Juries refused to convict bootleggers and speakeasy owners despite both the 18th Amendment, which outlawed booze, and the Volstead Act, which put teeth into the Amendment. Both were the ?law of the land,? but they were laws that most of the American people knew were wrong. Individual jurors frequently hung juries and, in other cases, convinced fellow jurors to acquit the accused so there could be no retrial. Prosecutors finally stopped bringing the cases to trial and Congress and the States finally passed the 21st Amendment which repealed the Prohibition laws.?

?Why aren?t we doing this in courtrooms today?? I asked.


I found this really interesting as I had always considered the jury selection process a necessary evil, just kinda thinking it kept those crazy's out who think a charge is proof of guilt. I was hopeful until I thought about the ramifications of someone arbitrarily deciding a law unjust, when it may well be. People would have to be relied upon to vote their conscience, even though it may be in direct contrast to the constitution.

Actually....I feel like I am rambling and I can barely keep my eyes open, so I'll get back to this tommorow.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineAhronZombi
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Registered: 04/06/04
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2787005 - 06/12/04 03:46 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

thats exactly right its coming and most of us are ignoreing it. us as the american people must wake up to this and resist


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2788483 - 06/12/04 09:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I love this quote:

"American people, whose collective attention span is brief and whose memory is even shorter, have come to believe that the way things are in this country today is the way they?ve always been.?

and this one:

The livelihoods of police, bureaucrats, judges, lawyers, and many others depend on drugs being illegal and remaining illegal.


Edited by chodamunky (06/12/04 09:34 PM)


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2791808 - 06/14/04 10:32 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

This is surely why a more open democracy where people are allowed to vote on more and more issues, and not just on a personality once every 4 years, has to be the way forward.



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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2791858 - 06/14/04 11:10 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

This is surely why a more open democracy where people are allowed to vote on more and more issues, and not just on a personality once every 4 years, has to be the way forward.




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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: CJay]
    #2792246 - 06/14/04 01:28 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
This is surely why a more open democracy where people are allowed to vote on more and more issues, and not just on a personality once every 4 years, has to be the way forward.





That might just be the death knell. What we need to do is to start following our Constitution again as the founding fathers intended it paying VERY close attention to Article 1, Section 8 and Amendments 9 and 10:

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Nothing more. Nothing less.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2792576 - 06/14/04 03:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

The constitution is outdated. Open democracy is the logical way to progress, it is only a matter of time.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2792578 - 06/14/04 03:53 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
The constitution is outdated. Open democracy is the logical way to progress, it is only a matter of time.



Open democracy is nothing more than the tyranny of the majority.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2792602 - 06/14/04 04:03 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Oh you prefer the tytanny of the minority, would you care to explain why?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2792613 - 06/14/04 04:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Oh you prefer the tytanny of the minority, would you care to explain why?



Show me where I said I prefer the tyranny of the minority.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2792616 - 06/14/04 04:08 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

So the current system is not a tyranny of the minority in your view?


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: GazzBut]
    #2792655 - 06/14/04 04:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
So the current system is not a tyranny of the minority in your view?



What do you mean by the current system? I think the current American government is far too tyrannical. If you mean the constitution, that is not tyranny. It is a means of preventing tyranny.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: silversoul7]
    #2792812 - 06/14/04 05:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

why would "open" or "direct" democracy negate individual rights or even the Bill of Rights itself?

I do not see the threat to individual rights anymore than representative-democracy. If communities come together and make decisions townhouse style, why would this be tyranny?

Perhaps my own definition of direct democracy is different than others. I just see it has turning government horizonatally rather than vertically and decentralizing authority into a confederation. This means delegates rather than representatives; this means a courier of a community's will rather than some distant expert a thousand miles away who makes decisions "on behalf" of others. This would require participation rather than passive, quasi-celebrity elections every four years of strangers.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Coming American Dictatorship [Re: Vvellum]
    #2792817 - 06/14/04 05:41 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
why would "open" or "direct" democracy negate individual rights or even the Bill of Rights itself?



It doesn't if they keep the Constitution and its checks and balances, rather than getting rid of it like Gazzbutt suggested.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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