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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Thank Ivan
    #2784445 - 06/11/04 12:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Saving Private Ivan

Remember Normandy's heroes - but also that the Red army played the decisive role in defeating Nazi Germany

The decisive battle for the liberation of Europe began 60 years ago this month when a Soviet guerrilla army emerged from the forests and bogs of Belorussia to launch a bold surprise attack on the mighty Wehrmacht's rear.

The partisan brigades, including many Jewish fighters and concentration-camp escapees, planted 40,000 demolition charges. They devastated the vital rail lines linking German Army Group Centre to its bases in Poland and Eastern Prussia.

Three days later, on June 22 1944, the third anniversary of Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union, Marshal Zhukov gave the order for the main assault on German front lines. Twenty-six thousand heavy guns pulverised German forward positions. The screams of the Katyusha rockets were followed by the roar of 4,000 tanks and the battle cries (in more than 40 languages) of 1.6 million Soviet soldiers. Thus began Operation Bagration, an assault over a 500-mile-long front.

This "great military earthquake", as the historian John Erickson called it, finally stopped in the suburbs of Warsaw as Hitler rushed elite reserves from western Europe to stem the Red tide in the east. As a result, American and British troops fighting in Normandy would not have to face the best-equipped Panzer divisions.

But what American has ever heard of Operation Bagration? June 1944 signifies Omaha Beach, not the crossing of the Dvina River. Yet the Soviet summer offensive was several times larger than Operation Overlord (the invasion of Normandy), both in the scale of forces engaged and the direct cost to the Germans.

By the end of summer, the Red army had reached the gates of Warsaw as well as the Carpathian passes commanding the entrance to central Europe. Soviet tanks had caught Army Group Centre in steel pincers and destroyed it. The Germans would lose more than 300,000 men in Belorussia alone. Another huge German army had been encircled and would be annihilated along the Baltic coast. The road to Berlin had been opened.

Thank Ivan. It does not disparage the brave men who died in the North African desert or the cold forests around Bastogne to recall that 70% of the Wehrmacht is buried not in French fields but on the Russian steppes. In the struggle against Nazism, approximately 40 "Ivans" died for every "Private Ryan". Scholars now believe that as many as 27 million Soviet soldiers and citizens perished in the second world war.

Yet the ordinary Soviet soldier - the tractor mechanic from Samara, the actor from Orel, the miner from the Donetsk, or the high-school girl from Leningrad - is invisible in the current celebration and mythologisation of the "greatest generation".

It is as if the "new American century" cannot be fully born without exorcising the central Soviet role in last century's epochal victory against fascism. Indeed, most Americans are shockingly clueless about the relative burdens of combat and death in the second world war. And even the minority who understand something of the enormity of the Soviet sacrifice tend to visualise it in terms of crude stereotypes of the Red army: a barbarian horde driven by feral revenge and primitive Russian nationalism. Only GI Joe and Tommy are seen as truly fighting for civilised ideals of freedom and democracy.

It is thus all the more important to recall that - despite Stalin, the NKVD and the massacre of a generation of Bolshevik leaders - the Red army still retained powerful elements of revolutionary fraternity. In its own eyes, and that of the slaves it freed from Hitler, it was the greatest liberation army in history. Moreover, the Red army of 1944 was still a Soviet army. The generals who led the breakthrough on the Dvina included a Jew (Chernyakovskii), an Armenian (Bagramyan), and a Pole (Rokossovskii). In contrast to the class-divided and racially segregated American and British forces, command in the Red army was an open, if ruthless, ladder of opportunity.

Anyone who doubts the revolutionary elan and rank-and-file humanity of the Red army should consult the extraordinary memoirs of Primo Levi (The Reawakening) and KS Karol (Between Two Worlds). Both hated Stalinism but loved the ordinary Soviet soldier and saw in her/him the seeds of socialist renewal.

So, after George Bush's recent demeaning of the memory of D-day to solicit support for his war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, I've decided to hold my own private commemoration.

I will recall, first, my Uncle Bill, the salesman from Columbus, hard as it is to imagine such a gentle soul as a hell-for-leather teenage GI in Normandy. Second - as I'm sure my Uncle Bill would've wished - I will remember his comrade Ivan.

The Ivan who drove his tank through the gates of Auschwitz and battled his way into Hitler's bunker. The Ivan whose courage and tenacity overcame the Wehrmacht, despite the deadly wartime errors and crimes of Stalin. Two ordinary heroes: Bill and Ivan. Obscene to celebrate the first without also commemorating the second.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,14058,1236290,00.html


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Xlea321]
    #2784644 - 06/11/04 01:26 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I thought it was obvious that the Soviet Union played a big part in the overthrow of Hitler's armies? I do however think that that article underplays the accomplisments of the Normandy landing (in particular the Panzer divisions). With that said I would love to see or hear about those battles that were huge and obscure. I would also like to see a special (history channel or book) on the German and Soviet battles (from their point of veiw).


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2784708 - 06/11/04 01:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Let's not forget U.S. and British air raids over Germany and their effect on arms manufacturing capabilities. Let's also not forget that the fucking Soviets invaded Poland on September 17, 1939, and Germany gave the Soviets the Baltic States (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania) as part of the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (also referred to as the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact and the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact). The Soviets did not join the fight against Germany until Germany's surprise attack and invasion of them on June 22, 1941.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Evolving]
    #2784723 - 06/11/04 01:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Not to mention how brilliant the British, Canadian and American's deception plans were. That was amazing. They made the Nazi's zig when they should of zagged.

I love watching or reading anything about WW2 (both theaters). Both my Grand fathers were in WW2 one in N. Afica (under Patton) and the other in the Pacific theater.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2784942 - 06/11/04 03:07 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Not to mention how brilliant the British, Canadian and American's deception plans were

Yeah, deception plans are cute. But I tend to think it's stopping the Wehrmacht in it's tracks that's the tricky bit. And remember we're talking the 1941-42 version of the Wehrmacht here, just coming off conquering Europe and full of confidence, not the 1944 version that had suffered catastrophic setbacks and knew the war was lost anyway.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Xlea321]
    #2785001 - 06/11/04 03:25 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

they way you put it, it would seem the Russians did it all. You do know that there were others fighting them as well.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Xlea321]
    #2785020 - 06/11/04 03:31 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Hey Alex, how about some props to your Soviet pals for enslaving Eastern Europe?  Did you thank them for the 7 to 10 million dead Ukrainians from their little artificial (commie created) famine?

Hope you don't mind a little Alex123 style thread derailment. :grin:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Evolving]
    #2785026 - 06/11/04 03:32 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

details, details.....it was America who enslaved them.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,712
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Evolving]
    #2785324 - 06/11/04 04:37 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hope you don't mind a little Alex123 style thread derailment.



Nice try but since you didn't derail the thread with the words "Bush" or "America", you didn't out Alpo Alpo.

And we all know that SOMEHOW those dead Ukrainians are the fault of America and GW as well.

Just give him time and he'll think of a way to blame the US for them.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2785338 - 06/11/04 04:39 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I blame Iowa.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Evolving]
    #2785367 - 06/11/04 04:45 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Did you thank them for the 7 to 10 million dead Ukrainians from their little artificial (commie created) famine

maybe the famine wasn't the fault of communism at all, and millions more would have died if not for the soviets' brilliant agricultural solutions?

:shrug:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,712
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2785370 - 06/11/04 04:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:
I blame Iowa.



Those bastards!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2785378 - 06/11/04 04:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

they way you put it, it would seem the Russians did it all

No, they didn't do it all.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2785381 - 06/11/04 04:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

It was actually a plot by Idaho to corner the potato market. Iowa was just the patsy.


--------------------


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Offlined33p
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Xlea321]
    #2785880 - 06/11/04 07:39 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Now if only the red army wasen't a piece of shit and Stalin didn't insist on planning some battle stratagies the war might have been over sooner. The sole thing that saved those pesky russians was the winter of '42.

And for the funny part of my post. Proof that alex did not read the article he posted and that he does not know much about WW2.

Quote:

But I tend to think it's stopping the Wehrmacht in it's tracks that's the tricky bit. And remember we're talking the 1941-42 version of the Wehrmacht here, just coming off conquering Europe and full of confidence, not the 1944 version that had suffered catastrophic setbacks and knew the war was lost anyway.




For one the article and the stopping the wehrmacht happened in '43. And the Russians got their asses handed to them in 41 and 42. The fighting was so easy that the Germans decided to place very few troops between Germany and their eastern front. This is why after the main German force died during the winter of '43 that the Russians progressed so fast.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Edited by d33p (06/12/04 05:25 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank Ivan [Re: d33p]
    #2786917 - 06/12/04 02:53 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Now if only the red army wasen't a piece of shit

  :gonzo:

Proof that alex did not read the article he posted and that he does not know much about WW2.

No, I read the article and if you think the red army was a peice of shit then I've forgotten more about WW2 than you'll ever know.

And the Russians got their asses handed to them in 41 and 42

And they still didn't quit.

The fighting was so easy

Yeah, the eastern front was "easy". That must be why 70% of the Werhmacts deaths were there  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Xlea321]
    #2787237 - 06/12/04 09:42 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, the eastern front was "easy". That must be why 70% of the Werhmacts deaths were there




There was a lot of brutal fighting on the Eastern front, but how many of the above '70%',not to sure about that figure, died as a result of fighting is questionable.

I'm sure the harsh winters killed a good few of the 3,050,000 men sent into Russia...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2787275 - 06/12/04 10:37 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

There are harsh winters in Poland too. Why do you think they died in Russia rather than Poland if it was down to the "harsh winter"?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinest0nedphucker
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Re: Thank Ivan [Re: Xlea321]
    #2787319 - 06/12/04 11:14 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

There are harsh winters in Poland too. Why do you think they died in Russia rather than Poland if it was down to the "harsh winter"?




The huge difference in the size of the respective invasions forces, the fact that Russia is far larger and its hostile terrain..

I am not denying the Russian army played a huge part in the defeat of Hitler, I am simply acknowledging the fact that Russian weather played a significant part aswell. It wasn't the first time either look at what happened to Napoleans army...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Thank Ivan [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2787485 - 06/12/04 12:38 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Sure it played a part but it wasn't any warmer for the Russians you know.

And if the Russians had collapsed like Hitler thought they were going to the winters wouldn't have mattered.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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