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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Cold *DELETED* * 1
    #27841751 - 06/29/22 01:59 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by djbabyjesus

Reason for deletion: deleted


Edited by djbabyjesus (09/03/23 09:00 PM)


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Invisiblehummingbird

Registered: 06/29/14
Posts: 2,134
Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27841759 - 06/29/22 02:27 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I don't think it's the harmalas that cause woodlover paralysis. The concentrations naturally present in mushrooms aren't much at all. I don't think I've seen many(if any really) people talking about paralysis from doing psilohuasca, where pure extracted harmalas are taken with mushrooms. People have taken pretty large doses of harmalas and been fine...maybe threw up, but it's not that toxic really...not in the amounts there would be in tea anyways.

This is a cool experiment you did though. I'm sure there's something useful that could come from it. There's a lot of beta carbolines that glow in UV light, some other compounds do too.

Have you tried the teas to see if there's a difference in potency or the overall effects?


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: hummingbird]
    #27841768 - 06/29/22 02:44 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I just did that tonight so I haven't had time to test in the wild.

I was thinking it was part of an entourage effect of some kind. A little is ok but too much of the wrong one and it can go south. Something to do with the enzymes and the amounts they produce in whatever combination.


It's hard to say. In the study they tested mycelium. It would be interesting to see the same tests performed on larger fruit bodies and the amounts present when someone would be ingesting them.


Edited by djbabyjesus (06/29/22 02:46 AM)


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27841772 - 06/29/22 02:54 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

One potential use could be to augment the experience though altering the alkaloid profiles....This was from another thread about ego disillusion.

Harmine, upregulates glutamate transporter expression increases Glutamate levels.

Quote:

Holybullshit said:
https://digest.bps.org.uk/2020/06/10/psilocybin-alters-brain-levels-of-the-neurotransmitter-glutamate-and-this-could-explain-why-users-experience-ego-dissolution/

Quote:

But, for the first time in humans, the team also observed higher levels of glutamate in the mPFC and lower levels in the hippocampus after taking psilocybin — and they linked these changes to different aspects of ego dissolution. Increases in the mPFC were most strongly linked to unpleasant aspects, such as a loss of control over thoughts and decision-making, and also anxiety. Decreases in the hippocampus, meanwhile, were most strongly linked to more positive aspects, such as feelings of unity with the wider world, and of having undergone a spiritual-type experience.







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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: hummingbird]
    #27842641 - 06/29/22 04:26 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hummingbird said:
I don't think I've seen many(if any really) people talking about paralysis from doing psilohuasca, where pure extracted harmalas are taken with mushrooms. People have taken pretty large doses of harmalas and been fine...maybe threw up, but it's not that toxic really...not in the amounts there would be in tea anyways.





Same here. Psilohuasca use is pretty rare. It took some searching to find...Mushrooms are more common so we get a lot more reports. While few and far in-between, there are reports on Psilohuasca causing paralysis and vomiting. Lots of ayahuasca reports. However, I haven't read reports that match Wood lovers paralysis exactly yet. Haven't heard of facial drooping (a tell tell sign) yet either. Ayahuasca paralysis seems to wear off quickly and be accompanied by fainting.

Psilohuasca:

From Bluelight
"My friend puked up on the grass and then lied down, C on the other hand was perfectly fine and I was bringing to get to grips with the state I was in. The temperature was freezing and as I gazed into the stars the cold was not a feeling it was a deep emotion that seemed to be piercing into me from the coldness of space. When B said he couldn’t move and thought he was going to have stay there all night I knew that only bad things could happen and I urged everyone to get back to the tent but failed on several occasions. When I finally convinced them we headed back for the tent, my legs felt jagged and poisoned."

Ayahuasca:

"I wasn't nauseous anymore but all the energy was drained from my body, and blood was drained from my head. It felt like fainting. A few more times I bent over and was raised back up by the shaman. But it just got worse. I said I needed to lay down. Two female shamans stood on either side of me, walking me toward my mat. Half way there, I started collapsing. They told me to stay strong, to keep going. I stood upright again and tried to continue. I couldn't. I fell to the ground and lost consciousness. When I started to come back, I could hear the shamans saying to me "No no no no stay here" (or something to that effect, it was all in Spanish). My legs were splayed out in front of me on the ground, and they were holding my torso up by my shoulders. One of them held my face in her hand, squeezing my cheeks so hard it hurt. And there was another pair of arms outstretched, with hands on my chest, pumping over my heart, like CPR. I was jolted back awake."

There have also been 5 deaths for ayahuasca ceremonies.

Here's one. He was fine until he drank a tobacco tea.

Colombia’s ayahuasca ceremonies in spotlight after tourist's drug death

Here is a paralysis report from Ayahuasca:

"One of the other participants decided, while I was in what felt like a paralyzed state, decided to fondle me and touch me inappropriately. [...] Aya spoke and she said, “you will not take this medicine again”. When I came out of the paralysis I knew what happened and I was stunned. I didn’t know how to handle it and I didn’t know how to deal with conflicts like that."

https://www.thecut.com/2021/11/sexual-assault-ayahuasca-tourism.html
"Some people, especially inexperienced users, can also feel immobilized, both physically and mentally; participants describe periods of intense physical weakness where they are unable to control their bodies."

https://www.easthamptonstar.com/east-magazine/2019812/ayahuasca-moms
"Still, despite Brittany’s care, her experience wasn’t all butterflies and kaleidoscopic colors. “The first time was really intense. My whole body became briefly paralyzed,” she recalls."

From P. Subs
I just vomitted everywhere and dialed 911

"They weighed in at 32 grams, and I decided to eat 23 grams around 4 hours ago. It started off fine, but then ~2 hours into my trip I felt my face starting to go numb. I asked my friend to dial 911 because I was falling in and out of consciousness and ended up fainting for a couple of minutes. I ended up vomiting several times whilst laying on the floor for the next 2 hours which is where I'm at now (numbness has gone away, vision is still blurry which is making it hard to write this post lol)"


Edited by djbabyjesus (06/29/22 04:30 PM)


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OfflineCaPNH14
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Registered: 06/27/22
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #27844653 - 07/01/22 06:59 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I have consumed lots of harmine/harmaline and never got ache inhibitor symptoms from it, fever and tachycardia sure, but no constricted pupils, difficulty breathing, etc.

Im not surprised you didnt get any fluorescence from organic tissue. Even peganum harmala plant material (or seeds) does not glow when exposed to UV, it needs to be in a solution to glow.

You made a tea which has reasonable emission. However, I dont think this can be attributed to harmine/harmaline. Yes, these alkaloids are fluorescent in very low concentrations, in fact I've found that the fluorescence actually decreases after a quite low concentration because of quenching, and the emitted color is reasonably similar, you would expect a more neon blue as purity increases. The thing is, many organic molecules are fluorescent, including some (3) amino acids. I wouldnt be surprised if psilocybin itself is fluorescent, as with many ringed organic molecules. I think for this experiment, you would need a way to control for these other molecules and their fluorescence. I also think you left it in an alkaline solution for too long. I would have loved to add pictures, but I dont know how.


Edited by CaPNH14 (07/01/22 07:23 AM)


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: CaPNH14]
    #27845947 - 07/02/22 02:17 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I wasn't testing any organic tissue so I'm not sure exactly what you mean. :shrug:

The unheated blue control vial contains psilocybin and does not glow. I'm pretty certain Psilocybin is not fluorescent.

The pictures I posted of harmine (First pic) look really similar to the reaction I got. Its a neon yellow green color.

Because the mushrooms tested contain harmine, wouldn't it make sense that one of these solutions (hot/cold) contains the UV reactive alkaloid?

Also I'm not saying harmine alone causes Wood lovers paralysis.  I'm just suggesting that a cold water extract could alter the alkaloid profile there by reducing the amount of achE inhibition while taking wood lovers which should help reduce wood lover paralysis.

But hey, maybe it does nothing to help at all....Maybe harmine is a good thing and helps the trip? At this point we just need to test it out. I noticed in all the reports on wood lovers paralysis, when people made tea they always used hot water. In every case I've read, either the mushrooms were ingested directly or a hot water extraction was performed.

In the case of harmine and harmline. They can be separated by adjusting the PH

"To separate from harmine, using pKa properties, raise pH of solution containing both alkaloids to pH 8.75 to precipitate 92% of harmine and only 8% Harmaline. Filter to retrieve precipitated alkaloids, and raise the pH further to retrieve the bulk of harmaline."

So I'm thinking adjusting the temperature and/or PH during the extraction will effect solubility and yield a paralysis free Tea.


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OfflineCaPNH14
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus] * 1
    #27846005 - 07/02/22 05:21 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Your unheated vials - those are smashed mushroom tissue as I understood it, no? Thats what I meant by organic tissue. Im not surprised you didnt see any glow there, most fluorescent materials need to be in solution to fluoresce.

The book "The Alkaloids: Chemistry and Pharmacology" page 47-48 proposes that psilocybin fluoresces *strongly* at 335nm, with exciation at 260nm. It is not surprising azurescens glows as well, was harmine even reported in azurescens? What wavelength are you exciting your samples at? The book goes on to say that fluorescence of dried mushrooms correlated well with its psilocybin content.  Its also interesting that your psilocybin control didnt fluoresce. Maybe there is too much sludge to see it or maybe the solution was heated beyond the point where psilocybin is stable? In any case for this experiment, I think there is going to be a lot of background noise fluorescence from amino acids and alkaloids alike which have to be excluded. Harmine and psilocybin are both derivatives of the amino acid tryptophan, which is strongly fluorescent itself. I think if you just have a mushroom extract, it will glow mainly because of the amino acids and then because of all the alkaloids. Most chemical-rich plant extracts glow under UV, anyway. Things like thyme.

One thing you can try is extract out the harmine as you said, but do it in enough quantities that you actually have some harmine in your hands. Then you can dissolve it in a solution and excite it with UV. Excite the now-harmine-free solution as well, I'd bet it still has enough fluorescence in there.

As for the effects of harmine, I'd think it would help the trip. I've done massive doses of this stuff for its MAOI effects, which I'm sure you know synergise and potentiate the effects of mushrooms. I think if it acted as a nerve agent, I'd be dead by now just based on how much I've done, but maybe I was lucky.  If you are interested in further understanding the effects of harmine + mushrooms, you can try Peganum harmala (tea or extract) with mushrooms. Peganum harmala contains harmine and harmaline, to which it gave their names, in really high quantities. They're often taken together to potentiate the effects of mushrooms, mainly, it will make your trip last much longer. Harmine is also always taken with orally ingested DMT, since without it, Ayahuasca is not psychoactive. Traditionally, banisteriopsis caapi is used for harmine in ayahuasca. Maybe there are cases of woodlovers paralysis with ayahuasca, but it sounds like you searched for that already. Peganum harmala is also taken by itself in the middle east and central asia, so maybe thats another place to look. For example, I remember reading about an Iranian woman who took 100 grams - an extremely high dose - of P. harmala and was hospitalized.


I dont want to be a downer. I am not saying your experiment isnt interesting, in fact I'd like to replicate it when I can (probably in a month or so). I think using fluorescence to detect potency in mushrooms is interesting. It could turn out to be a nice, objective and easy (cheap) way of measuring potency of strains.

Cheers

I still cant post images.


Edited by CaPNH14 (07/02/22 05:01 PM)


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: CaPNH14]
    #28009669 - 10/21/22 05:08 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Yoooo, I'm back. Sry I didn't respond before. I was hella busy with new job/life but will respond soon. Good luck this season, talk soon ✌️


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis *DELETED* [Re: CaPNH14] * 1
    #28009739 - 10/21/22 05:53 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by djbabyjesus

Reason for deletion: false


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OfflineLongtimenosee
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #28271481 - 04/10/23 05:47 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

A problem with this theory is that tryptamine's including Psilocybin fluoresce as well s many other chemicals. In fact most indole alkaloids fluoresce, which both harmine alkaloids and tryptamines alkaloids are.


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OfflineLongtimenosee
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: Longtimenosee] * 1
    #28271492 - 04/10/23 05:50 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Love the citizen science approach, such experiments do yield valuable insights.:havesomescience::grampofapproval::crackvial:


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OfflineLongtimenosee
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: Longtimenosee]
    #28271514 - 04/10/23 05:59 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

The blue liquid is likely Psilocin that degrade into various blue pigments with the help oxygen and enzymes.

The blue pigments are little studied perhaps they are to blame.


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 341
Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: Longtimenosee]
    #28271976 - 04/10/23 09:36 PM (9 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Longtimenosee said:
Love the citizen science approach, such experiments do yield valuable insights.:havesomescience::grampofapproval::crackvial:




Thanks :mushroom2:


Quote:

Longtimenosee said:
A problem with this theory is that tryptamine's including Psilocybin fluoresce as well s many other chemicals. In fact most indole alkaloids fluoresce, which both harmine alkaloids and tryptamines alkaloids are.





It does?

According to erowid that's a myth.

"Psilocybe mushrooms do not glow under blacklight (though if the stems are white, they will 'glow' like anything white does). To the best of our knowledge, poisonous mushrooms do not glow under blacklight either. I'd guess this rumor is based on the fact that LSD glows under blacklight, so it's easy to imagine a rumor starting that mushrooms would as well."

I tried looking for info on glowing psilocybin and so far all I've found was this article by new scientist  where they say they added potassium permanganate and ruthenium.

Maybe because it doesn't? Maybe it does? Does anyone have info out there that points to psilocybin fluorescing under a black light? I'm curious because erowid is pretty legit 🤷

If Psilocybin is readily soluble in water, then why don't the CWE samples glow under the black light?


Edited by djbabyjesus (04/10/23 09:41 PM)


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Offlinebogwitch
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: Longtimenosee]
    #28273957 - 04/12/23 06:03 AM (9 months, 12 days ago)

This would also make sense with oxidation in chemistry once fruiting bodies are exposed to air.


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OfflineLongtimenosee
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #28285001 - 04/19/23 09:11 AM (9 months, 5 days ago)

Quote:

djbabyjesus said:
Quote:

Longtimenosee said:
Love the citizen science approach, such experiments do yield valuable insights.:havesomescience::grampofapproval::crackvial:




Thanks :mushroom2:


Quote:

Longtimenosee said:
A problem with this theory is that tryptamine's including Psilocybin fluoresce as well s many other chemicals. In fact most indole alkaloids fluoresce, which both harmine alkaloids and tryptamines alkaloids are.





It does?

According to erowid that's a myth.

"Psilocybe mushrooms do not glow under blacklight (though if the stems are white, they will 'glow' like anything white does). To the best of our knowledge, poisonous mushrooms do not glow under blacklight either. I'd guess this rumor is based on the fact that LSD glows under blacklight, so it's easy to imagine a rumor starting that mushrooms would as well."

I tried looking for info on glowing psilocybin and so far all I've found was this article by new scientist  where they say they added potassium permanganate and ruthenium.

Maybe because it doesn't? Maybe it does? Does anyone have info out there that points to psilocybin fluorescing under a black light? I'm curious because erowid is pretty legit 🤷

If Psilocybin is readily soluble in water, then why don't the CWE samples glow under the black light?




Dried mushrooms contain only about 1% Tryptamine not enough to make them fluoresce but pure tryptamines do fluoresce. I can't remember what source I got that info from I will look through my books and give you a direct quote if I can find it.


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OfflineLongtimenosee
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: Longtimenosee]
    #28285059 - 04/19/23 09:53 AM (9 months, 5 days ago)

Shit! Maybe I am crazy, I swear I remember reading that indole alkaloids are florescent under UV but can't find my source.
:kummeli:
Maybe my memory is wrong.
:cannotunsee:
Perhaps we should post about this subject in the chemistry thread.


Edited by Longtimenosee (04/19/23 09:54 AM)


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OfflineLongtimenosee
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: Longtimenosee]
    #28287270 - 04/20/23 07:32 PM (9 months, 3 days ago)

I was wrong, tryptamine react to UV after treatment with some reagents. That is what caused the confusion in my mind. Sorry about mucking up your thread.


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OnlineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: djbabyjesus]
    #28298343 - 04/28/23 02:44 AM (8 months, 27 days ago)

Super cool experiment!

I think you are on to something. It could work just like with Morning Glory seeds. Very interesting! :strokebeard:


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Invisibledjbabyjesus


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Re: Cold Water Extraction as a solution for Wood Lovers Paralysis [Re: Longtimenosee]
    #28309694 - 05/06/23 10:08 PM (8 months, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Longtimenosee said:
I was wrong, tryptamine react to UV after treatment with some reagents. That is what caused the confusion in my mind. Sorry about mucking up your thread.





Oh no worries, I actually also thought the same thing until just a few weeks ago!


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