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OfflinePsilygirl
cyan goddess
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Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 4,418
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Day After Tomorrow [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2779593 - 06/10/04 12:00 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

elementary, my dear watson.


clicky


--------------------
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: The Day After Tomorrow [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2779766 - 06/10/04 01:15 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Definately. This has been my chief concern really for being in architecture... well that and seeing some weird shit the first time i took shrooms.

Oregon is a beautiful place. I hope it stays that way. If the ice caps melt... maybe more cold water will come from the north  :grin: .


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What?


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OfflineViveka
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Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
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Re: The Day After Tomorrow [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2782775 - 06/10/04 07:56 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

i am going to trust the science and not conspiracy theories



I'll say it again, just because a study is done scientifically, doesn't mean that it is infallible or that it holds all the answers or that it addresses the whole puzzle.

Where's the conspiracy? I'm not saying that humans are in no way affecting climate change, in fact I wouldn't be suprised if we are. All I'm trying to get at is that the results aren't in and it's important to always be ready to accept the fact that you're wrong. It is incredibly unscientific to operate under the stubborn assumption that all your hypothesees are correct. That's where pseudoscience takes hold.

Quote:

nothing i say will change you're mind, and nothing you say will change mine.




No, I'm still open to all the posibilites. What's troubling is that your mind is so set in stone.

Quote:

i think you mean partial pressures when you say solubility curves



Partial pressures are one thing, solubility curves are another. Solubility curves are pertinent to climate science because it involves how much carbon dioxide (or any gas) can be dissolved in the ocean at a particular temperature.

Quote:

also, everyone has a political agenda. you're a blind fool if you think you're skeptics don't have one.




I guess you skipped over the part in my last post where I said:
It's about power and the motives of all involved are questionable.
Of course everyone has their own agenda. And considering that you understand this, I'm even more curious as to why you are so trusting of the IPCC, even if they are an international panel of SCIENTISTS.

Quote:

and, most importantly, what are these "natural" sources that CO2 is coming from that you speak of?



Hmmm, where to begin....
- Mt. Etna, a volcano in Italy that produces 35,000 tons of carbon dioxide per day.

- Every volcano in the world (volcanoes and other vents like geothermal parks and springs all over the world are the largest source of non-anthropogenic carbon dioxide emmisions, not to mention various other greenhouse gasses).

- The 200-mile area of Italy between Florence and Naples produces an enormous amount of carbon dioxide, yet no one has tried to measure the amount before.
When looking at diffuse degassing, the researchers found one area that measured less than a tenth of a square mile, yet emits 150 tons of carbon dioxide per day.
(http://www.geosc.psu.edu/~jrogie/newsrel.html)

- Ever heard of killer lake Nyos? http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mhalb/nyos/nyos.htm Check it out.

- From http://www.aacog.com/naturalresources/1996%20Emissions%20Inventory/1996EI_Biogenics.html :
Vegetation is the predominant biogenic source of VOC and is typically the only source that is used to estimate biogenic VOC but VOC, NOx, and greenhouse gases such as methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), ozone (O3) and carbon dioxide (CO2) may originate from a variety of natural processes. Vegetation and soils, geological activity, lightning, and termites are just a few of the natural sources.

Microbial activity is responsible for the emission of NOx and the greenhouse gases of CO2, CH4, and N2O. Soil microbial activity is responsible for NOx and N2O emissions from agricultural lands and grasslands. CH4 is emitted through microbial action in waterlogged soils or in other anaerobic microenvironments. CO2 is released through the aerobic decay of biomass.

- Carbon dioxide can be found in underground wells at concentrations of 90% to almost 100% depending on the location of the well. Large carbon dioxide wells exist in the United States (e.g. in Colorado, Mississippi, New Mexico, Utah and Wyoming) and in Europe (e.g. at R?pcelak and Oelboe in Hungary and at Bad Driburg-Herste and Rottenburg in Germany). Geothermal carbon dioxide is found in numerous locations across Spain and Italy (e.g. at Torre Alfina).
( http://www.synetix.com/co2purification/sourcesofco2.htm )

- Anytime something ferments carbon dioxide is produced

I could go on for quite a while researching different sources of non-anthropogenic sources of carbon dioxide. But I would expect a self-proclaimed scientist such as yourself to already be aware that the vast majority of carbon dioxide emissions are natural and we are only beginning to pinpoint many of these.

Quote:

you need to understand simple combustion chemistry. if you combust a hydrocarbon, you're products are CO2 and water. what do you think petroleum is?? A LONG CARBON CHAIN! so when you combust gasoline in a car engine, you get CO2. simple.

1 gallon of gasoline = 20 lbs CO2 just from simple chemistry: moles and molecular weight.




Thanks for the lesson, teach. What's that have to do with non-anthropogenic CO2 emissions?

Quote:

so if we're burning all this petroleum everyday, where exactly is the CO2 coming from, it not petroleum?



That question perfectly captures your limited thinking on this subject. When did you assume that because burning fossil fuels produces CO2 that that must be the only source?

Quote:

i really dont feel like debating this anymore. i said what i have to say. as a biochemistry major, who does research at a lab, thus as a scientist, i am going to trust the science and not conspiracy theories.





"There are many claiming to be "client scientists", yet (for some strange reason) they don't realize that statistics is not science. Science requires an experimental control. Statistics often provides a scientist a good idea for a hypothesis, but correlations do not prove cause and effect. Furthermore, a computer models are not an experiments in that they again can not discriminate theories into true and false. (They may give one an idea where to poke around, but to claim they "prove" anything is pure fiction and should lead one to discount the source.)

Some things are unknowable. It is human nature not to accept that some things are beyond reach of knowing, but it is often the case.


Being a real scientist means we have to bend over backwards in order to find our human distortions of the object we are trying to draw conclusions about. This takes honesty and courage to report all warts and wrinkles in the subject."

Those words are from http://xtronics.com/reference/globalwarming.htm
, one of many sources of information you should read if you consider yourself to be the least bit open-minded about this subject.


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OfflinePsilygirl
cyan goddess
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Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 4,418
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Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
Re: The Day After Tomorrow [Re: Viveka]
    #2783377 - 06/11/04 12:46 AM (16 years, 10 months ago)

while it is your perrogative to not trust the top scientists in the world, that is not my choice--I will always trust professional scientific opinion.

i do not disagree with you're uncertainty-argument... no science is thought of as "fact", it is simply statistics. Einstein's theory of relativity can't even be proved to the degree you hope for. but there is statistical evidence based upon countless scientific data that this theory holds true. many chemical mechanisms aren't even fully understood--and they can never actually be known because we cannot physically observe electrons moving--but statistical data supports their belief. climate science is no different.

and, even if you don't think there is enough proof yet, it's better to live on whats called the precautionary principle--it's better safe then sorry. it's like buying insurance: we don't know for certain when or how something will happen, but it is better to prepare for the worst and insure our future.


--------------------
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society


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Invisiblechodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 2,030
Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
Re: The Day After Tomorrow [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2784748 - 06/11/04 02:06 PM (16 years, 10 months ago)

lol, that neat little flash program is supposed to convince me? I will admit, I have never heard of thermal expansion of the water as the cause of sea level rise. But c'mon, are you telling me that 2 degrees increase on the surface of the ocean would create like a 22 feet rise is world sea levels? Why the hell won't they teach this stuff in school? Every thing I've ever heard or read about global warming and sea level rise has to do with ice melting.


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