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OfflineJudge Doom
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Psilosophy23]
    #27826128 - 06/18/22 07:40 PM (6 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Psilosophy23 said:
This is nuts, so basically that is a species hybrid right ?




Yeah that's correct, this is a species hybrid! These fruits are the two species fused together and the offspring will be the new hybrid species. Haven't decided on a name for it yet.


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OfflineJudge Doom
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Judge Doom] * 2
    #27826133 - 06/18/22 07:44 PM (6 days, 20 hours ago)



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OfflinePsilosophy23
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Judge Doom]
    #27826714 - 06/19/22 04:12 AM (6 days, 11 hours ago)

That is sooo unbelievably cool.
I just started down the genetics path and kept seeing that two species can't be crossed and then i see this haha this is mad.
Good work bro aye :smile:


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OfflineJudge Doom
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Psilosophy23]
    #27826999 - 06/19/22 10:56 AM (6 days, 4 hours ago)

Thank you very much! :rockon:


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InvisibleSharaVabdasS
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Psilosophy23] * 2
    #27827149 - 06/19/22 01:07 PM (6 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Psilosophy23 said:
That is sooo unbelievably cool.
I just started down the genetics path and kept seeing that two species can't be crossed and then i see this haha this is mad.
Good work bro aye :smile:




Typically when two species can be so easily crossed, it indicates that they're closely related enough as to be considered the same species.

Since Nats can cross so readily with cubes, as has been demonstrated by Judge_Doom, it is likely that Natalensis should be considered a "subspecies" of cubensis, which there has been some ongoing debate about since Natalensis's original classification.

Note that there is a difference between a subspecies, a variety, and a cultivar. Subspecies indicates a different, yet compatible, genetic line that arose, specifically, due to geographical isolation from other populations of the organism. Among subspecies there can be naturally occurring varieties (the examples are usually the Bengal Tiger, being a subspecies of Tigers, and the various colors of Bengal tigers each being different varieties within that subspecies.)

A cultivar is, of course, a variety that was bred into existence by humans (it's actually at the same level of subspecies in the hierarchy, usually, but it's sort of its own thing.)

In this case I think Judge_Doom has proven that this species should be reclassified as a subspecies of Ps. Cubensis with their breeding work.

Some cross-species breeding can be done with transgenic (genetic modification) techniques, but that's not what's going on here.


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OfflineJudge Doom
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: SharaVabdas]
    #27827190 - 06/19/22 01:44 PM (6 days, 2 hours ago)

I feel like I agree with the current classification that it is its own species, as it's much different than the current cubensis subspecies, in my opinion.


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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Judge Doom]
    #27827204 - 06/19/22 01:54 PM (6 days, 1 hour ago)

Fascinating project! Great work so far. I'll be following along with much interest to see how it progresses. :super:


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OfflineJudge Doom
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: veggie] * 1
    #27827220 - 06/19/22 02:10 PM (6 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

veggie said:
Fascinating project! Great work so far. I'll be following along with much interest to see how it progresses. :super:




Thank you! I will post updates when I can. Hopefully sending some next generation cultures to grain next week.

I have more cubensis/natalensis hybrids in mind, and will be doing the pairings for that soon. Now that I have developed my dedikaryotization technique to include cubensis I have thousands of possibilities to work from. First in line next is Omni X natalensis.


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OfflinePsilosophy23
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: SharaVabdas]
    #27827546 - 06/19/22 06:41 PM (5 days, 21 hours ago)

Wow cheers for that info, that makes a lot of sense too. This is so fascinating


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OfflineHealing Oakland
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Psilosophy23]
    #27827754 - 06/19/22 09:38 PM (5 days, 18 hours ago)

:threadmonitor:


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Are you a cultivator in or near the Bay Area?

:pm: Healing Oakland is accepting new cultivators :pm:

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OfflineTwistedzombie66
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Healing Oakland]
    #27828302 - 06/20/22 09:10 AM (5 days, 6 hours ago)

Badass 🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘🤘💯💯💯💯


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OfflineJudge Doom
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Twistedzombie66]
    #27828358 - 06/20/22 10:06 AM (5 days, 5 hours ago)

Thank you!


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OfflineMr.Giggles
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Judge Doom] * 1
    #27831478 - 06/22/22 11:20 AM (3 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

Judge Doom said:
Quote:

Guerrilla said:
Quote:

Judge Doom said:
I do not believe it is possible to cross dikaryotic strains in any compacity, including mixing grain together. What you need is monokaryons and then to confirm compatibility with clamp connections. Spontaneous dedikaryotization is very rare




I'd be interested in a break down of your process. Are there any threads detailing what you went through? If not perhaps you would care to write one some day? A picture guide on mating spores / strain crossing with a scope would get a lot of attention.

You've greatly piqued my interest - I'm into the idea of getting a microscope more than ever now. Which one do you have?




I will work on giving a visual outline in the future but for now I'll just give you a quick run down here. I germinated APE spores and isolated the monokaryons using my isolation technique, then my friend Yoshi Amano germinated Ps. natalensis spores and also isolated them using my technique. He handed me the natalensis monokaryons and I paired them with 16 of my cubensis monokaryons in some multiwell culture plates (48). I did a total of 144 pairings. After they had some time to colonize the wells I took small samples of the mycelium with a scalpel and checked the hyphae for clamp connections. Once I confirmed the presence of clamp connections I isolated the pairings in petris and then fruited them.



I'm glad you find it as fascinating as I do! I use a Amscope B120 compound microscope.




I was starting to think you were Yoshi. I listened to all of the talks that he posted, cool stuff :thumbup: also, species is kind of a grey area. Different species can mate and produce fertile offspring. Savannah cats would be a good example of that, a hybrid of a serval and domestic cat. I read the F1,F2, and F3 males are often sterile though. So I don't see why nats wouldn't necessarily be there own species.


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OfflineJudge Doom
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Mr.Giggles]
    #27833228 - 06/23/22 06:12 PM (1 day, 21 hours ago)

I was starting to think you were Yoshi. I listened to all of the talks that he posted, cool stuff :thumbup: also, species is kind of a grey area. Different species can mate and produce fertile offspring. Savannah cats would be a good example of that, a hybrid of a serval and domestic cat. I read the F1,F2, and F3 males are often sterile though. So I don't see why nats wouldn't necessarily be there own species.




Yeah I'm not Yoshi, but he is my best myco friend lol. We work on basically everything together. And yeah he has been doing great things and I'm glad to see such a positive response from everyone. And yeah that is correct, it's definitely a grey area and there really is no telling what the results will be until it happens. I feel like natalensis is it's own species, it has enough differences for that to be the case. Lots of species in the psilocybe genus have very closely related counterparts.</font>


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Edited by Judge Doom (06/24/22 04:28 PM)


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Offlinesmalltalk_canceled
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: SharaVabdas]
    #27833413 - 06/23/22 08:15 PM (1 day, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

SharaVabdas said:
Quote:

Psilosophy23 said:
That is sooo unbelievably cool.
I just started down the genetics path and kept seeing that two species can't be crossed and then i see this haha this is mad.
Good work bro aye :smile:




Typically when two species can be so easily crossed, it indicates that they're closely related enough as to be considered the same species.

Since Nats can cross so readily with cubes, as has been demonstrated by Judge_Doom, it is likely that Natalensis should be considered a "subspecies" of cubensis, which there has been some ongoing debate about since Natalensis's original classification.

Note that there is a difference between a subspecies, a variety, and a cultivar. Subspecies indicates a different, yet compatible, genetic line that arose, specifically, due to geographical isolation from other populations of the organism. Among subspecies there can be naturally occurring varieties (the examples are usually the Bengal Tiger, being a subspecies of Tigers, and the various colors of Bengal tigers each being different varieties within that subspecies.)

A cultivar is, of course, a variety that was bred into existence by humans (it's actually at the same level of subspecies in the hierarchy, usually, but it's sort of its own thing.)

In this case I think Judge_Doom has proven that this species should be reclassified as a subspecies of Ps. Cubensis with their breeding work.

Some cross-species breeding can be done with transgenic (genetic modification) techniques, but that's not what's going on here.




I have a question. What is it specificly that makes the conclusion if nats can cross with cubes, that makes it possibly a subspecies of cubes, or the same species?


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OfflineTanavast
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: smalltalk_canceled]
    #27833447 - 06/23/22 08:33 PM (1 day, 19 hours ago)

The fact they can can reproduce at all together I imagine


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OfflineJudge Doom
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Tanavast]
    #27833533 - 06/23/22 09:32 PM (1 day, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Tanavast said:
The fact they can can reproduce at all together I imagine




That seems reasonable at first but there is a lot of fungal species that are capable of hybridization with another species. It's so common in the fungal kingdom that it kind of makes the grey area even more ambiguous.


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OfflineMr.Giggles
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Judge Doom]
    #27833687 - 06/23/22 11:04 PM (1 day, 16 hours ago)

Even you and me have Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA, you may even have a little homo erectus in you lol dumb joke.


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OfflineTwistedzombie66
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Mr.Giggles]
    #27833996 - 06/24/22 08:23 AM (1 day, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Mr.Giggles said:
Even you and me have Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA, you may even have a little homo erectus in you lol dumb joke.



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OfflinedoubleD
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Re: APE/Ps. natalensis hybrid [Re: Twistedzombie66]
    #27834042 - 06/24/22 09:19 AM (1 day, 6 hours ago)

I want this in my threads. Great job guy


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