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Offlinebaldur
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Why are my monotubs failing?
    #27808754 - 06/06/22 09:13 PM (18 days, 19 hours ago)

My three tubs seem to be failing :frown:

Now on day 12 and I haven't seen any new growth for the past 4 days.

This is how they look now, just as on day 8:





Should I try to fruit them or just toss them away?

I'm mostly suspecting my coir brand. I'm using the Canna Natural Coco.

Anyone have an opinion on that? Anything else that could be causing this?

Everything seemed perfect up until now:
  • Agar was super clean and showed rhizomorphic growth.
  • Jars looked and smelled good, although they took 4-5 weeks to colonize fully (with 1-2 shakes). Used oats.
  • Used BODs easy AF bucket TEK in a cooler to create the substrate. Water was almost boiling when poured. FC achieved.
  • Temperature is 24C / 75F. RH is 36% in the room.


Edited by baldur (06/06/22 09:16 PM)


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OfflineKROM
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur] * 2
    #27808772 - 06/06/22 09:24 PM (18 days, 19 hours ago)

4-5 week quart jar colonization is quite slow, in my experience (it usually takes around two weeks for me). As such, I suspect you may have had a bacterial contamination that is causing you issues. I’ve seen a lot of people complaining about having issues with oats harbouring resilient bacteria, and I’ve been having some less than stellar results with oats recently, so that may be a potential issue. But I am not an expert, so you should wait for input from some more knowledgeable people.


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: KROM]
    #27808803 - 06/06/22 09:54 PM (18 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

KROM said:
4-5 week quart jar colonization is quite slow, in my experience (it usually takes around two weeks for me). As such, I suspect you may have had a bacterial contamination that is causing you issues. I’ve seen a lot of people complaining about having issues with oats harbouring resilient bacteria, and I’ve been having some less than stellar results with oats recently, so that may be a potential issue. But I am not an expert, so you should wait for input from some more knowledgeable people.




Really hope it´s not my oats since I have about 150 jars almost ready :eek:

The jars all seem to grow at the same rate though. This would suggest that either these spores all came from a slow-growing variety or all the agar plates got contamination.

Note that the spores which I used came from at least two different vendors so not the same genetics, but both were GT. But then I mixed up all the jars in the tubs, could that possibly be a problem? Unlikely.


Would it be advisable to grow a bit of the grain spawn on agar and see if I get any suspicious contamination?


Edited by baldur (06/06/22 10:02 PM)


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OnlinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: KROM]
    #27808812 - 06/06/22 10:02 PM (18 days, 18 hours ago)

:whathesaid:

Got any pictures of your spawn?  I would also think with 4-5 week colonization times that they weren't as healthy as you thought they were.  I've consistently had worse results using oats and will not use them again unless no other grains are available.

#TEAMFUCKOATS


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Onlinesan pedro guy
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: KROM]
    #27808823 - 06/06/22 10:19 PM (18 days, 18 hours ago)

What kind of tub is that? I cant see the air holes from the pics, hopefully your not suffocating them as many people do. They need fresh air ALL of the time. How wet was the coir? too wet plus no fresh air might stall it out

and like krom mentioned, the spawn might just be bad if it’s taking forever to colonize a jar


--------------------
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OfflineHealing Oakland
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: san pedro guy]
    #27808936 - 06/06/22 11:21 PM (18 days, 17 hours ago)

Ditto to :whathesaid:. Spawn straight to fruiting conditions next time, the need for an airtight colonization has been thoroughly disproven. Let them puppies breathe :smile:

Check out Pastys EZ Dial tubs, no cracked or upside down lids, no pollyfill holes, and no micropore tape. Just little holes, and spawn straight to fruiting conditions.


--------------------
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Are you a cultivator in or near the Bay Area?

:pm: Healing Oakland is accepting new cultivators :pm:

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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27808995 - 06/06/22 11:55 PM (18 days, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

PBJ710 said:
:whathesaid:

Got any pictures of your spawn?  I would also think with 4-5 week colonization times that they weren't as healthy as you thought they were.  I've consistently had worse results using oats and will not use them again unless no other grains are available.

#TEAMFUCKOATS




You are probably right about the spawn :eek:, but the problem might actually be coming from my Agar I suspect. Let me elaborate a bit :smile:

I just realized that I have some jars that are at least a month old and have not been inoculated yet. They still look like the day that I removed them from the PC:



Which should indicate that my oats should not be contaminated, right?

Note that my colonized jars are quite wet on the inside, which I've read somewhere could be a hint for bacteria.

So if they are contaminated then the source should be coming from my agar I assume.

Here are some pictures of my current jars:

Batch from 11. May (26 days) - Never shaken





Batch from 4. May (33 days)







Batch from 27.4 (40 days)




Here are my filters if anyone is interested. Both polyfil and Adhesive Lid Filters 20mm Hydrophobic 0.3μm - From BeaconHillMushrooms. Note that I packed the polyfil quite tight...






Edited by baldur (06/07/22 12:03 AM)


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InvisibleBlazer420
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur] * 1
    #27808997 - 06/06/22 11:59 PM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

those are nasty jars, that is why your monotubs are failing.


--------------------
~ I used to get high on life, until I realized life was cut with morons ~
* You need 2 wake up and smell the music! *
-We are all computer data in a materialistic world-
|Sometimes you have to lose yourself, to find anything|


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: san pedro guy]
    #27809008 - 06/07/22 12:11 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

san pedro guy said:
What kind of tub is that? I cant see the air holes from the pics, hopefully your not suffocating them as many people do. They need fresh air ALL of the time. How wet was the coir? too wet plus no fresh air might stall it out





:eek:

I thought I would be fine with closed tubs for the first 10 days since the lid is not sealed properly. Probably much more airflow than when they were in the jars...

The coir was around FC, a hard squeese resulted in just a few drops. One tub was a bit wetter, not substantially though.

I'm using IKEA Samla boxes. You think it's to late to drill some holes and see if they revive?

Link to IKEA Samla box



Here is a video showing how the lid seals to the tub.



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OnlinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27809010 - 06/07/22 12:11 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

You would think it would mean they are clean, but the way you 'see' bacteria on grains is by where the mycelium can't colonize.  Oats do funny things sometimes.   

Thats bacteria...It's not horrible, but it's there in most of those jars.  The spikey growth, the grains that refuse to colonize, liquid pooling / excess condensation all point to bacteria.  IMO the faster you can get everything colonized, the better it will perform so shake those jars a couple days after jumpoff then again after those fluff back up.  Jars that small should be easily done in 2 weeks.


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Blazer420]
    #27809014 - 06/07/22 12:15 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Blazer420 said:
those are nasty jars, that is why your monotubs are failing.




I'm curious, how do you read from this that the jars are nasty? Based on the moisture content? Could that be due to my GE filter not allowing enough airflow? I packed the polyfil quite tight... But the other filter is giving me same results so maybe that's not a problem.


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OfflineDEZn00ts
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27809015 - 06/07/22 12:15 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Anything longer than two weeks (Not even) is usually a bacteria issue.


--------------------


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OfflineDEZn00ts
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Blazer420]
    #27809019 - 06/07/22 12:18 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Blazer420 said:
those are nasty jars, that is why your monotubs are failing.




What do you mean? They all look amazing. Probably didn't pasteurize substrate right.


--------------------


"it's genetic. Asians are better at math if born in America or Asia. Black people run faster born in Africa or America. White people are still more racist no matter where they were born either. it's genetic." -bodhisatta


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InvisibleBlazer420
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: DEZn00ts]
    #27809024 - 06/07/22 12:25 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

what do you mean? Those jars are gross.. WAY 2 wet, uncolonized grains.... Pasteurizing substrate? lol you add water to coir and that is your substrate.


--------------------
~ I used to get high on life, until I realized life was cut with morons ~
* You need 2 wake up and smell the music! *
-We are all computer data in a materialistic world-
|Sometimes you have to lose yourself, to find anything|


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InvisibleBlazer420
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: DEZn00ts]
    #27809028 - 06/07/22 12:26 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

DEZn00ts said:
Anything longer than two weeks (Not even) is usually a bacteria issue.



no


--------------------
~ I used to get high on life, until I realized life was cut with morons ~
* You need 2 wake up and smell the music! *
-We are all computer data in a materialistic world-
|Sometimes you have to lose yourself, to find anything|


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27809038 - 06/07/22 12:32 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

PBJ710 said:
You would think it would mean they are clean, but the way you 'see' bacteria on grains is by where the mycelium can't colonize.  Oats do funny things sometimes.   

Thats bacteria...It's not horrible, but it's there in most of those jars.  The spikey growth, the grains that refuse to colonize, liquid pooling / excess condensation all point to bacteria.  IMO the faster you can get everything colonized, the better it will perform so shake those jars a couple days after jumpoff then again after those fluff back up.  Jars that small should be easily done in 2 weeks.




So the general consensus is that the oats are to blame. That's better than my agar technique being off! :thumbup:

So Rye and WBS, aren't these supposed to be the most successful grains?

I'm quite sure that I followed proper procedures when PC-ing. I used autoclave tape here and there to test whether the correct temp was reached for at least 20 minutes. Put it on lids... and also for a few boils I put strips of tape in the middle of the bottom middle jar (inside the grains), a jar which I then opened after PC-ing to check the tape. I'm using a pretty nice autoclave (All American Model 25x). So there must be some resilient bacteria here if they are surviving my sterilization.

One theory might be related to endospores.

Might be worth the try to soak the grains and PC longer. Any feedback on that?

I'm considering this after I read this tip in the The Essential Guide to Cultivating Mushrooms book.

QUOTE:

Thwarting Endospores: Soaking your grain for 12 to 24 hours ensures adequate hydration, but it also has another benefit: it allows bacterial endospores to germinate, and thus become more susceptible to sterilization temperatures. Pressure cooking grain is necessary because bacterial endospores can survive temperatures of 212°F (100°C). Sterilization at 250°F (121°C) for 20 minutes is required to kill these endospores. Remember that the entire contents of the jar must reach that temperature for the recommended time. The interior of the jars or bags takes longer to heat up than the outer areas, so actual cooking times must be longer than 20 minutes to ensure proper sterilization of the entire substrate. If you’re having problems with bacteria in your grain jars, you may want to try longer sterilization times and/or switching to the soaking hydration method.


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Blazer420]
    #27809044 - 06/07/22 12:36 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Blazer420 said:
what do you mean? Those jars are gross.. WAY 2 wet, uncolonized grains.... Pasteurizing substrate? lol you add water to coir and that is your substrate.




I used Canna Coco Natural, which is meant for plants, not much info on successful grows here on this site using that coir. But I gave it a try. Could be the reason, or at least part of it.

I'm definitely going to get another brand of coir, and try to fruit my current jars in that.

Also trying another grain...

We got work to do it seems :grin:


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OfflineDEZn00ts
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27809046 - 06/07/22 12:38 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Yea I don't do oats, I do WBS.I think I see issues with one jar MAYBE but uncolonized LOOKING parts up against glass doesn't necessarily mean contam and water definitely does not. I don't know where you learned that shit.


--------------------


"it's genetic. Asians are better at math if born in America or Asia. Black people run faster born in Africa or America. White people are still more racist no matter where they were born either. it's genetic." -bodhisatta


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27809047 - 06/07/22 12:38 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

I might add that there was a slight sweet smell of all of the jars. But I don't know how they should smell...

The smell was a bit different from when I was doing PF-TEK, but that's different ingredients anyway. 

Somewhere I read that sweet and sour were a bad sign...

:hmm:


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OfflineDEZn00ts
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27809048 - 06/07/22 12:40 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Yea I don't do oats, I do WBS.I think I see issues with one jar MAYBE but uncolonized LOOKING parts up against glass doesn't necessarily mean contam and water definitely does not. I don't know where you learned that shit.
Quote:

baldur said:
I might add that there was a slight sweet smell of all of the jars. But I don't know how they should smell...

The smell was a bit different from when I was doing PF-TEK, but that's different ingredients anyway. 

Somewhere I read that sweet and sour were a bad sign...

:hmm:




Yea loool that's bad. If you see anything that doesn't look like mycelium trash them. Blazer is most likely right seeing as I can't speak on grain too much.


--------------------


"it's genetic. Asians are better at math if born in America or Asia. Black people run faster born in Africa or America. White people are still more racist no matter where they were born either. it's genetic." -bodhisatta


Edited by DEZn00ts (06/07/22 12:43 AM)


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27809049 - 06/07/22 12:44 AM (18 days, 16 hours ago)

Isn't it just best to swab some of that excess water and grow it out on agar? :grin: That way shouldn't I know for sure whether bacteria is to blame or not?


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OnlinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27809060 - 06/07/22 01:03 AM (18 days, 15 hours ago)

I don't want to say conclusively that oats are your issue but I bet your agar looks fine.  I fought with oats for over 6 months trying to figure out where my seemingly random contams were coming from thinking it MUST be in my culture - nope, it was the fucking oats that were available locally to me.  If I was in your position, I would try some rye/wheat/WBS/barley or millet to at least to verify if it fixes any issues - all work great when prepped correctly, it just depends on whats available locally to you for cheap.

Just to rule it out as a possible issue, what was your PC cycle like?  Vent for 10+ minutes then 15psi for 90-120 minutes I assume? 

I wouldn't put much faith in sterilization strips unless you can figure out how to get one inside a piece of grain.

You have stumbled across one of the age old debates on shroomery - to plan ahead and soak grains or just simmer/boil when needed.  Both have benefits and drawbacks.  It's definitely worth trying to see if it changes up anything - especially if you already have the grain.


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OfflineDEZn00ts
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27809065 - 06/07/22 01:13 AM (18 days, 15 hours ago)

Yea man I always soak my WBS and never have contamination on my end, only when doing spore syringes. I say that 16-24 hours is the best amount of time to soak and pressure cook at 15-17 PSI for 90 minutes does the trick. For WBS anyways I would ASSUME rye is the same?


--------------------


"it's genetic. Asians are better at math if born in America or Asia. Black people run faster born in Africa or America. White people are still more racist no matter where they were born either. it's genetic." -bodhisatta


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InvisibleBlazer420
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27809106 - 06/07/22 02:04 AM (18 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

baldur said:
Quote:

Blazer420 said:
what do you mean? Those jars are gross.. WAY 2 wet, uncolonized grains.... Pasteurizing substrate? lol you add water to coir and that is your substrate.




I used Canna Coco Natural, which is meant for plants, not much info on successful grows here on this site using that coir. But I gave it a try. Could be the reason, or at least part of it.

I'm definitely going to get another brand of coir, and try to fruit my current jars in that.

Also trying another grain...

We got work to do it seems :grin:




I promise you it is your jars.


--------------------
~ I used to get high on life, until I realized life was cut with morons ~
* You need 2 wake up and smell the music! *
-We are all computer data in a materialistic world-
|Sometimes you have to lose yourself, to find anything|


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27810064 - 06/07/22 09:09 PM (17 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

PBJ710 said:
I don't want to say conclusively that oats are your issue but I bet your agar looks fine.  I fought with oats for over 6 months trying to figure out where my seemingly random contams were coming from thinking it MUST be in my culture - nope, it was the fucking oats that were available locally to me.  If I was in your position, I would try some rye/wheat/WBS/barley or millet to at least to verify if it fixes any issues - all work great when prepped correctly, it just depends on whats available locally to you for cheap.





Phew, fighting oats for 6 months, sounds horrible! I'll definitely go hunting for another grain and do some tests.


Quote:

PBJ710 said:
Just to rule it out as a possible issue, what was your PC cycle like?  Vent for 10+ minutes then 15psi for 90-120 minutes I assume? 





I vented for 5 minutes usually (according to manufacturers directions for the All American 25x), and then 15Psi for 120 minutes (time starts when pressure reaches 15Psi).

But this concept of venting is a bit confusing to me since my pressure cooker doesn't really vent, there's hardly any sound coming from the vent when I'm doing the 5 min exhaust.

I actually started another topic on that concern: link to topic. There you can see a video of the exhausting process.

Quote:

PBJ710 said:
You have stumbled across one of the age old debates on shroomery - to plan ahead and soak grains or just simmer/boil when needed.  Both have benefits and drawbacks.  It's definitely worth trying to see if it changes up anything - especially if you already have the grain.




I'll give it a try. I also heard somewhere that horsefood-oats are sometimes sprayed with fungicides :eek:


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OfflineKROM
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27810086 - 06/07/22 09:37 PM (17 days, 19 hours ago)

Although from that video it doesn’t appear you can see the water vapour, it may still help to allow the exhaust process/venting proceed for 10+ minutes once it’s making that constant hissing sound like in the video. I’ve been doing 15 minutes. Halfway through this thread there is a good write-up and links about the venting process evacuating any air pockets in the pc:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24180711/vc/1#24180711


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OnlinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: KROM]
    #27810261 - 06/07/22 11:47 PM (17 days, 17 hours ago)

:whathesaid:

It won't hurt anything if you go for a longer vent as long as you don't run out of water. 

If you haven't seen this, it is worth the read:

All American 75x tips & tricks compilation


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OfflineTheTimelessDon
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Blazer420] * 2
    #27810294 - 06/08/22 12:15 AM (17 days, 16 hours ago)

I suspect you aren't putting enough emphasis on drying your grains after you soak, and before you put jars in PC.  This is a HUGE step, and you can see how your grains are too wet in the first 3 pics, 3rd pic especially.

If they aren't properly dry before going into PC, you will have pressure cooked poorly moisturized grains.  The entire moisturizing process includes the drying and I believe you may be shorting them there. 

Everything else snowballs... It's a combination of everyone's comments, all stemming from the grains being too wet before PC.  Causing what appears to be bacteria in every jar, resulting in the failure of every tub.

Just my thoughts, but that's my verdict... Dry your grains extremely well after soaking.  Crazy how something so small can snowball into something so big!


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OfflineTweeq
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Blazer420] * 1
    #27810362 - 06/08/22 02:31 AM (17 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Blazer420 said:
Quote:

baldur said:
Quote:

Blazer420 said:
what do you mean? Those jars are gross.. WAY 2 wet, uncolonized grains.... Pasteurizing substrate? lol you add water to coir and that is your substrate.




I used Canna Coco Natural, which is meant for plants, not much info on successful grows here on this site using that coir. But I gave it a try. Could be the reason, or at least part of it.

I'm definitely going to get another brand of coir, and try to fruit my current jars in that.

Also trying another grain...

We got work to do it seems :grin:




I promise you it is your jars.




I agree with Blazer. It's your jars. Look bacterial af to me. If I were you I would dry my grains more before pcing too.

Also I second the notion that you should shake in order to cut back on colonization time / give contams less chance to show up.

Good luck!


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Tweeq]
    #27811627 - 06/09/22 05:58 AM (16 days, 11 hours ago)

Now this has started to grow in my tubs. I'm no expert, but this is most likely not Golden Teacher, right ?? :grin:

On the 6th of June it looked like this:



and on the 8th it had grown to this:





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OfflineTheTimelessDon
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811636 - 06/09/22 06:07 AM (16 days, 10 hours ago)

:mygodthehorror:

Maybe not teachers, but the lesson learned is golden.  :nerd:  :cheese:


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Invisiblesandman420
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: TheTimelessDon]
    #27811665 - 06/09/22 06:47 AM (16 days, 10 hours ago)

This is simply from not venting properly. 5 minutes of WEAK no-sound venting isn't enough.

It really should be HISSING by 20 minute venting, if your stove or the element is so weak that it makes no noise it will take a lot longer than 5 minutes to purge the air.

The air trapped inside is keeping the jars from reaching correct temps to kill bacteria endospore.


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: TheTimelessDon]
    #27811670 - 06/09/22 07:01 AM (16 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

TheTimelessDon said:
I suspect you aren't putting enough emphasis on drying your grains after you soak, and before you put jars in PC.  This is a HUGE step, and you can see how your grains are too wet in the first 3 pics, 3rd pic especially.

If they aren't properly dry before going into PC, you will have pressure cooked poorly moisturized grains.  The entire moisturizing process includes the drying and I believe you may be shorting them there. 

Everything else snowballs... It's a combination of everyone's comments, all stemming from the grains being too wet before PC.  Causing what appears to be bacteria in every jar, resulting in the failure of every tub.





Interesting point, but I actually allowed the grains to sit in the fridge overnight (some even longer) in a strainer before using them. Shouldn't that be enough drying?

And also, how could extra water lead to bacterial problems? Bacteria needs to be alive in order to thrive and create problems. So if my sterilization was OK then all the bacteria should be dead, in spite of to much moisture. Right?

I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just trying to understand :smile:


Edited by baldur (06/09/22 07:04 AM)


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811683 - 06/09/22 07:33 AM (16 days, 9 hours ago)

An interesting point that it might be my venting procedure fucking up my sterilization process.

I've actually done countless boils of agar with a full PC of 500ml bottles. Seems to work fine, I even have 3 months old unused agar plates that are still contamination free.

Not sure what that tells me? Either sterilizing grains needs more heat & time than sterilizing agar, or my sterilization procedure is working fine.

But I'll be sure to vent for 15-20 minutes next time I boil!


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811684 - 06/09/22 07:34 AM (16 days, 9 hours ago)

I actually got confirmation that someone in my city had grown 5kgs of mushrooms using the same oats as I have. I don't know how he prepared them or how long he PC'ed them though.

This might suggest that my sterilization might be off!


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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811722 - 06/09/22 08:12 AM (16 days, 8 hours ago)

You can sterilize agar far easier than grain.


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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811737 - 06/09/22 08:19 AM (16 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

baldur said:
An interesting point that it might be my venting procedure fucking up my sterilization .

Not sure what that tells me? Either sterilizing grains needs more heat & time than sterilizing agar, or my sterilization procedure is working fine.






Yes, that's exactly what it tells you.


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OfflineKeyMaker
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #27811755 - 06/09/22 08:34 AM (16 days, 8 hours ago)

Have you tried 6 holes with Polyfil as soon as you birth the tub(using a liner), and just leaving it alone?  I used a few jars that were pretty gnarly while I was working on some agar for cleaner spawn, and those jars did fine with the vents I've always used. 

I agree, your spawn is ultimately to blame, but it's just my opinion that you could have done more with what you have by making a proper monotub.


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OnlinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: KeyMaker]
    #27811779 - 06/09/22 09:12 AM (16 days, 7 hours ago)

Whut?!
Quote:

KeyMaker said:
Have you tried 6 holes with Polyfil as soon as you birth the tub(using a liner), and just leaving it alone?  I used a few jars that were pretty gnarly while I was working on some agar for cleaner spawn, and those jars did fine with the vents I've always used. 

I agree, your spawn is ultimately to blame, but it's just my opinion that you could have done more with what you have by making a proper monotub.




Whut?!  Why would the type of tub you are using have anything to do with what is living and growing inside a culture?  Once you understand how to create axenic cultures, you won't say silly things like that :wink:

Agar is bout as easy to sterilize as water.  Since there's no air gaps for the steam to need to penetrate it's basically just boiling a liquid.  Grains require that the steam penetrate the grain inside jars and bags.  If there's air trapped in the jars/bags, that spot will not heat up as much and will likely not sterilize.


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OfflineHealing Oakland
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27812126 - 06/09/22 01:49 PM (16 days, 3 hours ago)

Sandman, PBJ, and Timeless have all given you great points. You'll be on track soon, listen to these guys. Drying your grain properly is key (in the beginning you should be questioning yourself as to whether or not they are TOO dry) most new people are loading grains that are way too wet. This is a fact. ESPECIALLY if you graduate to bags (which are way easier to work with than jars if you are scaling up your opertation) this drying the hydrated grain step becomes WAY more important with bags, but it's still critical with jars. Also the point made about a good long venting with the hissing sound is critical as well, I go for 20-30 minutes just to be safe, and I run my bags for 4+ hours . Don't cut corners here either, and for jars, I am firmly in the camp that 90 minutes is not long enough especially if your grain type and prep aren't optimal. Jars get 2 hours bare minimum, or even 2 and a half for me. No harm done with longer cycles and it will help kill endospores so why not? I also set my gauge on my 75x's to bounce around in the 17-20 PSI range as it self regulates, 15 PSI is a minimum.

That white patch in your tub will soon be forest green, better luck on the next round. :cheers:


--------------------
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Are you a cultivator in or near the Bay Area?

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Edited by Healing Oakland (06/09/22 02:29 PM)


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Healing Oakland]
    #27812142 - 06/09/22 01:57 PM (16 days, 3 hours ago)

Slowly getting there! One failure at a time :grin:

So on the concept of drying. How should I go about that? Dry in an oven maybe on baking trays?

I kept the oats in a colander in the fridge for a night, even more. But maybe this brand needs more drying.

Here's what BOD had to say:



I personally find that drier grains perform way better than anything too wet. I sometimes prepare lots of grain a day ahead of time let it dry in the colander for a few hours then put it in the fridge overnight. It almost seems too dry, you can't get it too dry. If I have the time I vastly prefer to make the grain on the dry side



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OnlinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27812184 - 06/09/22 02:20 PM (16 days, 2 hours ago)

Don't use heat to dry them as you can get them too dry, you're just not reaching that point yet with passive drying. 

The hulls on oats don't release water as easily as the surface of wheat/rye/barley so they usually take a bit longer to dry.  You want to let the grain steam off as much as possible to remove the excess moisture before it becomes trapped in the grains when they cool.  It also helps to have a fan blowing on the grain to get the moisture out of the way quicker.  For me it takes me 1-2 hours on a screen table for a sack of grain to dry enough for bagging.  I stop drying when grains don't stick to my hands while mixing them.


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Invisiblesandman420
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27812192 - 06/09/22 02:26 PM (16 days, 2 hours ago)

I lay the steaming hot strained grain in a thin layer on a piece of plywood and mix it around every so often for 30 minutes total so it can steam dry.


--------------------
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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27812238 - 06/09/22 03:24 PM (16 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

baldur said:
Slowly getting there! One failure at a time :grin:

So on the concept of drying. How should I go about that? Dry in an oven maybe on baking trays?

I kept the oats in a colander in the fridge for a night, even more. But maybe this brand needs more drying.

Here's what BOD had to say:



I personally find that drier grains perform way better than anything too wet. I sometimes prepare lots of grain a day ahead of time let it dry in the colander for a few hours then put it in the fridge overnight. It almost seems too dry, you can't get it too dry. If I have the time I vastly prefer to make the grain on the dry side






I don't have room to spread mine out. I put them in two wire colanders, with a strong fan blowing on them. Once an hour stir them up from the bottom. I do this for 24 hours, but that includes sleeping time and going to work, so if you're around it will take maybe 8 hours.


--------------------
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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27813107 - 06/10/22 10:33 AM (15 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

PBJ710 said:
Don't use heat to dry them as you can get them too dry, you're just not reaching that point yet with passive drying. 

The hulls on oats don't release water as easily as the surface of wheat/rye/barley so they usually take a bit longer to dry.  You want to let the grain steam off as much as possible to remove the excess moisture before it becomes trapped in the grains when they cool.  It also helps to have a fan blowing on the grain to get the moisture out of the way quicker.  For me it takes me 1-2 hours on a screen table for a sack of grain to dry enough for bagging.  I stop drying when grains don't stick to my hands while mixing them.




What is a screen table? A table made out of a fine net or something with plenty of holes?


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OnlinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27813120 - 06/10/22 10:45 AM (15 days, 6 hours ago)

Yeah, that's basically it.  Mine is just a wood framed table with a window screen bottom.  I use welded wire fencing under the window screen to support the weight of the grain and the finer window screen keeps it from falling through.  You can use fans below the table to help push air through the grain and fans above to remove the moisture from the grain.


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27813122 - 06/10/22 10:47 AM (15 days, 6 hours ago)

Sounds like a great design, I'll give this a try at some point.


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27813135 - 06/10/22 11:00 AM (15 days, 5 hours ago)

So I'm trying to dry my oats more, but now I'm starting to think that they are not really suitable, a lot of them seem to be cracked open and the mushy inside starting to show.

This is how they look after drying on the table for an hour next to a fan with frequent mixing. I boiled them for 45 minutes, drained them in a colander for 10 minutes, and then an hour on the table.

When I run my hand through them there are allot who are really sticking to my hand, mostly because they are cracked open.

Here is a picture of those who stuck to my hand:



And pictures of them drying on the table:



Seems to be quite a lot of opened oats.

And when I look at them fresh before a boil, they really don't look that good. The ends are a bit open and some are cracked already:



Should I be moving to another grain? I actually got some millet, rye and wheat that I haven't tried.


Edited by baldur (06/10/22 11:10 AM)


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OnlineBobbins
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27813160 - 06/10/22 11:26 AM (15 days, 5 hours ago)

You are over-boiling your grain, so reduce the time down. Everybody's grain source is different, so what you could do is boil for 30 mins then keep an eye on them and turn them out of the boiling water as soon as you see some have burst like that.


--------------------
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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Bobbins]
    #27813166 - 06/10/22 11:32 AM (15 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Bobbins said:
You are over-boiling your grain, so reduce the time down. Everybody's grain source is different, so what you could do is boil for 30 mins then keep an eye on them and turn them out of the boiling water as soon as you see some have burst like that.




Yeah I thought about that. But don't you think they look kinda bad, to begin with before the boil in the picture above?


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OfflineKROM
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27813418 - 06/10/22 03:37 PM (15 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

PBJ710 said:
Yeah, that's basically it.  Mine is just a wood framed table with a window screen bottom.  I use welded wire fencing under the window screen to support the weight of the grain and the finer window screen keeps it from falling through.  You can use fans below the table to help push air through the grain and fans above to remove the moisture from the grain.




Neat. I do something similar with an old window screen/frame that I sit on top of a big ass Rubbermaid bin with a fan inside it. It works quite well.


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Healing Oakland]
    #27813801 - 06/10/22 09:21 PM (14 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Healing Oakland said:
Jars get 2 hours bare minimum, or even 2 and a half for me. No harm done with longer cycles and it will help kill endospores so why not? I also set my gauge on my 75x's to bounce around in the 17-20 PSI range as it self regulates, 15 PSI is a minimum.




Thanks for the advice.

Say, I've been reading that to high temperature (for Rye at least) might result in burst kernels. You've not experienced that with your higher temperatures and longer PC-ing times?


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OfflineHealing Oakland
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27813811 - 06/10/22 09:26 PM (14 days, 19 hours ago)

It's less the heat, and duration of the cycle and more your moisture content being to high. Your grains are over hydrated if it's becoming a problem for you. Dry them longer before PCing. :cheers:


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OfflineSpirit-Crusher
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Healing Oakland]
    #27816667 - 06/12/22 09:32 PM (12 days, 19 hours ago)

They add trich to the coco for cannabis plants. Look at the FAQ on that site. I learned the hard way about that too. You need bricks with nothing added to it.


EDIT. As for oat prep. Make sure the oats your using haven't been treated with fungicides. I hard boil for 45 minutes then let them sit in the sink and dry overnight.


--------------------


Edited by Spirit-Crusher (06/12/22 09:35 PM)


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OfflineHealing Oakland
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Spirit-Crusher] * 1
    #27816843 - 06/12/22 11:47 PM (12 days, 17 hours ago)

I'm not stating anything as fact here, however: trich is added to some coir brands, and while this certainly isn't desirable, the spore load for trich in the air all around us is high enough that I am not convinced it really makes a huge difference, because if your spawn is truly clean, it should beat trich. I am by no means saying that coir with added trich is inconsequential, but clean spawn can beat trich in coir, because it beats the high density of trich in the air all around us that settles into the coir during prep, and into the sub when prepped and colonizing. I am not dogmatic in my thinking, I am happy to be shown conclusive information to the contrary, but this is my current understanding and general impression on the matter.


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Healing Oakland]
    #27817111 - 06/13/22 07:46 AM (12 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Healing Oakland said:
I'm not stating anything as fact here, however: trich is added to some coir brands, and while this certainly isn't desirable, the spore load for trich in the air all around us is high enough that I am not convinced it really makes a huge difference, because if your spawn is truly clean, it should beat trich. I am by no means saying that coir with added trich is inconsequential, but clean spawn can beat trich in coir, because it beats the high density of trich in the air all around us that settles into the coir during prep, and into the sub when prepped and colonizing. I am not dogmatic in my thinking, I am happy to be shown conclusive information to the contrary, but this is my current understanding and general impression on the matter.




I would actually be really interested in knowing how much trich is actually in the air on average. Like spore count per cubic meter of air f.x.

Also, recently I've been wondering about how careful I should be when working in my SAB. So I've been trying to get contanination in my agar plates by keeping the exposed to room-air for quite a while. And even coughing at them. And nothing so far has grown, and it's been weeks :laugh:

My lab is in a basement of a very new house, with almost no vegetation around. So that might explain the open-air experiment. But coughing on agar plates... not resulting in anything?!? I'm surprised :laugh:


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27820369 - 06/15/22 08:16 AM (10 days, 8 hours ago)

I'm starting to suspect that my grain is actually OK after all.  :grin: Would love to get some feedback on that.

This is based on two facts:

  • My new boxes from same grain spawn seems to be thriving OK (different coir and casing layer)
  • My grain spawn on Agar is looking fine IMO


So I decided to put some of the grain spawn to shoeboxes. There are two things different now:
  • Another brand of coir (UGro XL Rhiza instead of Canna Coco Natural)
  • Used a rather wet (more than FC) coir casing layer ala the SFF Shoebox Assembly TEK instead of a coir layer at FC


This is how my shoeboxes look at day 8. Speed seems normal according to what I see in the Shoebox Assembly TEK pictures, maybe a bit slower.



Also, I tried growing my grains out on agar for 8 days. Three things that I grew on agar:
  • Grains from a sterilized non-colonized jar
  • Grains from a colonized jar
  • The water from the sides of a colonized jar (should contain allot of bacteria)


Pictures of sterilized grains, not inoculated. No bacteria visible:



Pictures of colonized grains. Can't see any bacteria either:



Pictures of water from a colonized jar put on agar. Looks like just regular GT mycelium to me:



So I'm wondering what is happening here. Is my coir to blame? Can't be the wetter casing layer or that I actually suffocated the mycelium by not putting holes in my tub, can it?


Edited by baldur (06/15/22 09:01 AM)


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Offlinebaldur
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27830643 - 06/21/22 06:33 PM (3 days, 22 hours ago)

Really curious to get someones opinion on last post :smile:

Shoeboxes still seem to be fine, even starting to see pinning and tiny mushrooms starting to grow in some.


Edited by baldur (06/21/22 06:34 PM)


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OnlinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27830808 - 06/21/22 08:36 PM (3 days, 20 hours ago)

They look super wet in the day 8 pictures.  The tubs that you used are not the same as the 'normal' sterilite 6qt shoebox tub so they may need additional FAE since the lid seals alot better against the tub.  The 6qt shoebox tubs have a looser fitting lid that allows for FAE to passively occur with the lid on. 

I don't see any issues on the plates - do you have any fresh pics of the tubs?


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Offline6The6Despised6One
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27833278 - 06/23/22 06:47 PM (1 day, 22 hours ago)

My 1st tub I'm pretty sure failed due to the trich in the coir that I got from a hardware store coupled with improper pasteurization.
Now that I got this other coir from the pet store that was labeled as washed and heat treated, I'm seeing pins now. i pasteurized it the exact same way as my previous attempts and there's no signs of trich.
I think the good pet store brand is exo-terra and the trich containing brand from home depot was eco-earth I'll find out for sure when I get home and let you know.
But heat treated and washed might be the keywords to look for when choosing coir. (Not the chemically washed though.) I've also read where it comes from may affect salinity, my current brand is from Vietnam which would prbly make the salt content a little higher than you'd like it to be, but it's by far doing better than the trich laden home depot brand I first tried.


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Offline6The6Despised6One
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: 6The6Despised6One]
    #27833401 - 06/23/22 08:10 PM (1 day, 20 hours ago)

Yeah the good coir brand I'm using is exo-terra and it says heat treated and triple machine washed


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