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Offlinebaldur
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Registered: 06/30/21
Posts: 252
Last seen: 1 hour, 4 minutes
Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27809049 - 06/07/22 12:44 AM (18 days, 15 hours ago)

Isn't it just best to swab some of that excess water and grow it out on agar? :grin: That way shouldn't I know for sure whether bacteria is to blame or not?


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OfflinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27809060 - 06/07/22 01:03 AM (18 days, 15 hours ago)

I don't want to say conclusively that oats are your issue but I bet your agar looks fine.  I fought with oats for over 6 months trying to figure out where my seemingly random contams were coming from thinking it MUST be in my culture - nope, it was the fucking oats that were available locally to me.  If I was in your position, I would try some rye/wheat/WBS/barley or millet to at least to verify if it fixes any issues - all work great when prepped correctly, it just depends on whats available locally to you for cheap.

Just to rule it out as a possible issue, what was your PC cycle like?  Vent for 10+ minutes then 15psi for 90-120 minutes I assume? 

I wouldn't put much faith in sterilization strips unless you can figure out how to get one inside a piece of grain.

You have stumbled across one of the age old debates on shroomery - to plan ahead and soak grains or just simmer/boil when needed.  Both have benefits and drawbacks.  It's definitely worth trying to see if it changes up anything - especially if you already have the grain.


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OfflineDEZn00ts
The Wizard of The Midwest
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27809065 - 06/07/22 01:13 AM (18 days, 14 hours ago)

Yea man I always soak my WBS and never have contamination on my end, only when doing spore syringes. I say that 16-24 hours is the best amount of time to soak and pressure cook at 15-17 PSI for 90 minutes does the trick. For WBS anyways I would ASSUME rye is the same?


--------------------


"it's genetic. Asians are better at math if born in America or Asia. Black people run faster born in Africa or America. White people are still more racist no matter where they were born either. it's genetic." -bodhisatta


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InvisibleBlazer420
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Registered: 06/13/09
Posts: 4,787
Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27809106 - 06/07/22 02:04 AM (18 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

baldur said:
Quote:

Blazer420 said:
what do you mean? Those jars are gross.. WAY 2 wet, uncolonized grains.... Pasteurizing substrate? lol you add water to coir and that is your substrate.




I used Canna Coco Natural, which is meant for plants, not much info on successful grows here on this site using that coir. But I gave it a try. Could be the reason, or at least part of it.

I'm definitely going to get another brand of coir, and try to fruit my current jars in that.

Also trying another grain...

We got work to do it seems :grin:




I promise you it is your jars.


--------------------
~ I used to get high on life, until I realized life was cut with morons ~
* You need 2 wake up and smell the music! *
-We are all computer data in a materialistic world-
|Sometimes you have to lose yourself, to find anything|


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Offlinebaldur
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Registered: 06/30/21
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: PBJ710]
    #27810064 - 06/07/22 09:09 PM (17 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

PBJ710 said:
I don't want to say conclusively that oats are your issue but I bet your agar looks fine.  I fought with oats for over 6 months trying to figure out where my seemingly random contams were coming from thinking it MUST be in my culture - nope, it was the fucking oats that were available locally to me.  If I was in your position, I would try some rye/wheat/WBS/barley or millet to at least to verify if it fixes any issues - all work great when prepped correctly, it just depends on whats available locally to you for cheap.





Phew, fighting oats for 6 months, sounds horrible! I'll definitely go hunting for another grain and do some tests.


Quote:

PBJ710 said:
Just to rule it out as a possible issue, what was your PC cycle like?  Vent for 10+ minutes then 15psi for 90-120 minutes I assume? 





I vented for 5 minutes usually (according to manufacturers directions for the All American 25x), and then 15Psi for 120 minutes (time starts when pressure reaches 15Psi).

But this concept of venting is a bit confusing to me since my pressure cooker doesn't really vent, there's hardly any sound coming from the vent when I'm doing the 5 min exhaust.

I actually started another topic on that concern: link to topic. There you can see a video of the exhausting process.

Quote:

PBJ710 said:
You have stumbled across one of the age old debates on shroomery - to plan ahead and soak grains or just simmer/boil when needed.  Both have benefits and drawbacks.  It's definitely worth trying to see if it changes up anything - especially if you already have the grain.




I'll give it a try. I also heard somewhere that horsefood-oats are sometimes sprayed with fungicides :eek:


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OnlineKROM
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27810086 - 06/07/22 09:37 PM (17 days, 18 hours ago)

Although from that video it doesn’t appear you can see the water vapour, it may still help to allow the exhaust process/venting proceed for 10+ minutes once it’s making that constant hissing sound like in the video. I’ve been doing 15 minutes. Halfway through this thread there is a good write-up and links about the venting process evacuating any air pockets in the pc:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24180711/vc/1#24180711


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OfflinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: KROM]
    #27810261 - 06/07/22 11:47 PM (17 days, 16 hours ago)

:whathesaid:

It won't hurt anything if you go for a longer vent as long as you don't run out of water. 

If you haven't seen this, it is worth the read:

All American 75x tips & tricks compilation


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OfflineTheTimelessDon
The Don


Registered: 03/19/22
Posts: 186
Last seen: 4 days, 8 hours
Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Blazer420] * 2
    #27810294 - 06/08/22 12:15 AM (17 days, 15 hours ago)

I suspect you aren't putting enough emphasis on drying your grains after you soak, and before you put jars in PC.  This is a HUGE step, and you can see how your grains are too wet in the first 3 pics, 3rd pic especially.

If they aren't properly dry before going into PC, you will have pressure cooked poorly moisturized grains.  The entire moisturizing process includes the drying and I believe you may be shorting them there. 

Everything else snowballs... It's a combination of everyone's comments, all stemming from the grains being too wet before PC.  Causing what appears to be bacteria in every jar, resulting in the failure of every tub.

Just my thoughts, but that's my verdict... Dry your grains extremely well after soaking.  Crazy how something so small can snowball into something so big!


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OfflineTweeq
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Registered: 06/07/18
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Blazer420] * 1
    #27810362 - 06/08/22 02:31 AM (17 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Blazer420 said:
Quote:

baldur said:
Quote:

Blazer420 said:
what do you mean? Those jars are gross.. WAY 2 wet, uncolonized grains.... Pasteurizing substrate? lol you add water to coir and that is your substrate.




I used Canna Coco Natural, which is meant for plants, not much info on successful grows here on this site using that coir. But I gave it a try. Could be the reason, or at least part of it.

I'm definitely going to get another brand of coir, and try to fruit my current jars in that.

Also trying another grain...

We got work to do it seems :grin:




I promise you it is your jars.




I agree with Blazer. It's your jars. Look bacterial af to me. If I were you I would dry my grains more before pcing too.

Also I second the notion that you should shake in order to cut back on colonization time / give contams less chance to show up.

Good luck!


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Offlinebaldur
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Registered: 06/30/21
Posts: 252
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: Tweeq]
    #27811627 - 06/09/22 05:58 AM (16 days, 10 hours ago)

Now this has started to grow in my tubs. I'm no expert, but this is most likely not Golden Teacher, right ?? :grin:

On the 6th of June it looked like this:



and on the 8th it had grown to this:





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OfflineTheTimelessDon
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Registered: 03/19/22
Posts: 186
Last seen: 4 days, 8 hours
Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811636 - 06/09/22 06:07 AM (16 days, 10 hours ago)

:mygodthehorror:

Maybe not teachers, but the lesson learned is golden.  :nerd:  :cheese:


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Invisiblesandman420
Saint PP
Male


Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 5,103
Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: TheTimelessDon]
    #27811665 - 06/09/22 06:47 AM (16 days, 9 hours ago)

This is simply from not venting properly. 5 minutes of WEAK no-sound venting isn't enough.

It really should be HISSING by 20 minute venting, if your stove or the element is so weak that it makes no noise it will take a lot longer than 5 minutes to purge the air.

The air trapped inside is keeping the jars from reaching correct temps to kill bacteria endospore.


--------------------
- Sandbag Tek - How To Sterilize Spawn Bags - All About Static Pressure / Pressure Drop for DIY Flow Hoods - Sandman's LC Tek - Sandman's Glass Petri Tek -

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Offlinebaldur
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Registered: 06/30/21
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: TheTimelessDon]
    #27811670 - 06/09/22 07:01 AM (16 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

TheTimelessDon said:
I suspect you aren't putting enough emphasis on drying your grains after you soak, and before you put jars in PC.  This is a HUGE step, and you can see how your grains are too wet in the first 3 pics, 3rd pic especially.

If they aren't properly dry before going into PC, you will have pressure cooked poorly moisturized grains.  The entire moisturizing process includes the drying and I believe you may be shorting them there. 

Everything else snowballs... It's a combination of everyone's comments, all stemming from the grains being too wet before PC.  Causing what appears to be bacteria in every jar, resulting in the failure of every tub.





Interesting point, but I actually allowed the grains to sit in the fridge overnight (some even longer) in a strainer before using them. Shouldn't that be enough drying?

And also, how could extra water lead to bacterial problems? Bacteria needs to be alive in order to thrive and create problems. So if my sterilization was OK then all the bacteria should be dead, in spite of to much moisture. Right?

I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just trying to understand :smile:


Edited by baldur (06/09/22 07:04 AM)


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Offlinebaldur
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Registered: 06/30/21
Posts: 252
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811683 - 06/09/22 07:33 AM (16 days, 8 hours ago)

An interesting point that it might be my venting procedure fucking up my sterilization process.

I've actually done countless boils of agar with a full PC of 500ml bottles. Seems to work fine, I even have 3 months old unused agar plates that are still contamination free.

Not sure what that tells me? Either sterilizing grains needs more heat & time than sterilizing agar, or my sterilization procedure is working fine.

But I'll be sure to vent for 15-20 minutes next time I boil!


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Offlinebaldur
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Registered: 06/30/21
Posts: 252
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811684 - 06/09/22 07:34 AM (16 days, 8 hours ago)

I actually got confirmation that someone in my city had grown 5kgs of mushrooms using the same oats as I have. I don't know how he prepared them or how long he PC'ed them though.

This might suggest that my sterilization might be off!


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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811722 - 06/09/22 08:12 AM (16 days, 7 hours ago)

You can sterilize agar far easier than grain.


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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27811737 - 06/09/22 08:19 AM (16 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

baldur said:
An interesting point that it might be my venting procedure fucking up my sterilization .

Not sure what that tells me? Either sterilizing grains needs more heat & time than sterilizing agar, or my sterilization procedure is working fine.






Yes, that's exactly what it tells you.


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OfflineKeyMaker
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Registered: 01/03/22
Posts: 45
Loc: Central Appalachia
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #27811755 - 06/09/22 08:34 AM (16 days, 7 hours ago)

Have you tried 6 holes with Polyfil as soon as you birth the tub(using a liner), and just leaving it alone?  I used a few jars that were pretty gnarly while I was working on some agar for cleaner spawn, and those jars did fine with the vents I've always used. 

I agree, your spawn is ultimately to blame, but it's just my opinion that you could have done more with what you have by making a proper monotub.


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OfflinePBJ710
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Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: KeyMaker]
    #27811779 - 06/09/22 09:12 AM (16 days, 6 hours ago)

Whut?!
Quote:

KeyMaker said:
Have you tried 6 holes with Polyfil as soon as you birth the tub(using a liner), and just leaving it alone?  I used a few jars that were pretty gnarly while I was working on some agar for cleaner spawn, and those jars did fine with the vents I've always used. 

I agree, your spawn is ultimately to blame, but it's just my opinion that you could have done more with what you have by making a proper monotub.




Whut?!  Why would the type of tub you are using have anything to do with what is living and growing inside a culture?  Once you understand how to create axenic cultures, you won't say silly things like that :wink:

Agar is bout as easy to sterilize as water.  Since there's no air gaps for the steam to need to penetrate it's basically just boiling a liquid.  Grains require that the steam penetrate the grain inside jars and bags.  If there's air trapped in the jars/bags, that spot will not heat up as much and will likely not sterilize.


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OfflineHealing Oakland
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Registered: 06/03/22
Posts: 131
Last seen: 1 day, 4 hours
Re: Why are my monotubs failing? [Re: baldur]
    #27812126 - 06/09/22 01:49 PM (16 days, 2 hours ago)

Sandman, PBJ, and Timeless have all given you great points. You'll be on track soon, listen to these guys. Drying your grain properly is key (in the beginning you should be questioning yourself as to whether or not they are TOO dry) most new people are loading grains that are way too wet. This is a fact. ESPECIALLY if you graduate to bags (which are way easier to work with than jars if you are scaling up your opertation) this drying the hydrated grain step becomes WAY more important with bags, but it's still critical with jars. Also the point made about a good long venting with the hissing sound is critical as well, I go for 20-30 minutes just to be safe, and I run my bags for 4+ hours . Don't cut corners here either, and for jars, I am firmly in the camp that 90 minutes is not long enough especially if your grain type and prep aren't optimal. Jars get 2 hours bare minimum, or even 2 and a half for me. No harm done with longer cycles and it will help kill endospores so why not? I also set my gauge on my 75x's to bounce around in the 17-20 PSI range as it self regulates, 15 PSI is a minimum.

That white patch in your tub will soon be forest green, better luck on the next round. :cheers:


--------------------
Healing Oakland
The Magic Mushroom Co-operative

Are you a cultivator in or near the Bay Area?

:pm: Healing Oakland is accepting new cultivators :pm:

OAKLAND  DECRIMINALIZED



Edited by Healing Oakland (06/09/22 02:29 PM)


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