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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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What Is To Be Done? * 1
    #27799887 - 05/31/22 07:13 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

This thread is for folks who are upset with the sclerotic regime in DC to talk about what they think needs to happen to break this cycle of inaction.

I’m going to mainly focus on the Democrats, as I am wont to do, but folks here upset the GOP isn’t far enough right or whatever are also welcome to chime in.


So first I just wanna nip this “vote harder” impulse in the bud, because it seems like the first plan of action for any of our problems in this country is to vote. For example, the latest mass shooting has folks chomping at the bit to turn out liberals for a blue wave in the midterms. If we can get 60 Democratic Senators then we don’t have to worry about filibustering McConnell and the Dems can advance all those awesome policies they ostensibly want.

I’m gonna ignore the House here because it isn’t the major roadblock that the Senate is, and is generally more (small D) democratic. So let’s take a look at the Senate, and how the demographics of the states translate into who has power.

Senators have 6 year terms, which means that unlike the House they aren’t all up for re-election in every election, which makes “waves” like we see in the House far less likely. But let’s set that aside for now.  In this first post I want to discuss the rigidity of the “world’s greatest deliberative body” and how difficult it is for either party to reach a 60 vote majority.

First, let’s take a look at the seats that are safe for either the party, at least in recent history.

Unsurprisingly, the Democrats usually maintain control of the west coast and the Northeast, while Republicans are stewards of the south and the middle of the country.

Barring some monumental campaign win, the Senate “locks” for either party typically look like this:

Dems have both seats in CA, CO, CT, DE, HI, IL, MD, MA, MI, MN, NH, NJ, NY, OR, RI, VT, and WA.

Republicans have both seats in AL, AR, ID, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, MS, MO, NE, NC, ND, OK, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, and WY.

Democrats: 34 seats
Republicans: 40 seats


These virtually “safe” seats account for 37 states, or 74 Senate Seats. Already you can see the disadvantage for Democrats, because, despite the enormous disparity in populations between these two groups, the Republicans get more power with less votes. If you split the remaining, “contestable,” states down the middle, with each party getting one of two seats, the makeup of the Senate would look like this:

Democrats: 47 seats
Republicans: 53 seats

Now of course there are “swing states” like Florida where Republicans have both seats, or Georgia where Democrats have both seats, but for the sake of simplicity I’m just drawing the line down the center.

So let’s say we want the Democrats to act on gun control. Not a single membership of the leadership, as far as I can tell, is advocating changing the rules of the filibuster, so they’ll need 60 seats in the Senate at the absolute minimum to get it done, and we’re just assuming here that every single Sinema and Warner and Manchin are on board.

Now scroll back up and look how many safe seats the GOP has. Forty. That means that for the Democrats to get to a filibuster proof majority of 60, they’d have to win every single tossup seat in the country. Does this seem feasible to anybody? Even if some blue  wave resulted in unprecedented reckoning for Republicans in safe seats losing their office to Dem challengers, keep in mind that every single seat isn’t up for re-election at the same time. There would have to be a string of several electoral miracles for this fantasy to become reality.

Given the virtual impossibility of this endeavor, coupled with conservative courts and state legislatures explicitly engaging in gerrymandering and voter fraud, what is to be done about this? What’s the solution? (Don’t say vote)


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Edited by The Ecstatic (05/31/22 08:16 AM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27800094 - 05/31/22 10:36 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Every time they redistrict, just have every registered democrat in the state move so as to guarantee that the state has dems elected.  If the numbers aren't there, dems in two losing states could consolidate in one of the two states to turn one into a dem state.


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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27800108 - 05/31/22 10:44 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

There isn't much to do except to live our lives until this nation finally collapses completely, either from climate change, economic factors or both. That time is approaching. Then the onus will be on us to rebuild a better system in the aftermath.

The only thing that can be done with government for the time being is try to limit the damage they do to us and to the world. Allowing a full Democrat takeover at every level of government would accomplish the opposite of this. As we have seen with Biden these idiots are capable of doing great harm in a short timeframe. If this trend continues we will see a nuclear war in our lifetime. Is that what you want?

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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: chopstick]
    #27800112 - 05/31/22 10:47 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I don't know, man.  Trump did more damage to the U.S. in 4 years than all other presidents combined in my 52 year life.


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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: Enlil] * 5
    #27800138 - 05/31/22 11:03 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

It's been 1.5 years of Biden and suddenly we're on the edge of ww3, the global economy is collapsing and inflation is spiraling out of control. Millions of people are suddenly put into a desperate economic position when before they were getting by.

Sorry, but I think that tops any of the stupid crap Trump did during his tenure.

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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: chopstick]
    #27800140 - 05/31/22 11:05 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

You think Biden caused Putin to invade Ukraine?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: Enlil]
    #27800159 - 05/31/22 11:13 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I think choppy has trouble distinguishing between what happens in reality and the fanciful imagination of Tucker Carlson.

The solution might be a brand new weather underground, at this point. Why should Republicans get to monopolize political violence and terrorism? It's like Trump said, sometimes you just need some second amendment folks to free up some seats in the Senate/house/SCOTUS.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: Enlil]
    #27800169 - 05/31/22 11:21 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Every time they redistrict, just have every registered democrat in the state move so as to guarantee that the state has dems elected.  If the numbers aren't there, dems in two losing states could consolidate in one of the two states to turn one into a dem state.




Feel like this is along the lines of giving PR and DC statehood, but Democratic leadership won’t even discuss reforming the filibuster I find it hard to believe they’ll back an endeavor like this.


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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #27800171 - 05/31/22 11:22 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Biden gave the greenlight for Ukraine to launch an all out military offensive on Donbass, something Trump would NOT do.

So yes, the "election" of Joe Biden is directly responsible for the major escalation in Ukraine.

If Ukraine hadn't threatened an all out offensive on Donbass, Russia would not have invaded at this time. It's that simple.

On top of that, they refused to give a satisfactory response when Russia gave them the ultimatum on NATO expansion last December. This is another thing Trump would have done differently. He would have actually made an attempt at defusing through diplomacy instead of giving some half-assed nonsense response like Biden's regime did.



Quote:

Kryptos said:
I think choppy has trouble distinguishing between what happens in reality and the fanciful imagination of Tucker Carlson.

The solution might be a brand new weather underground, at this point. Why should Republicans get to monopolize political violence and terrorism? It's like Trump said, sometimes you just need some second amendment folks to free up some seats in the Senate/house/SCOTUS.




It's common sense, it has nothing to do with "MUH TUCKER CARLSONNN".

A zero IQ response from you as usual. I wonder if you are even capable of thinking for yourself at this point.

As for the Democrats, they have already become highly militant and violent with Antifa and BLM. They have already killed, injured & maimed people. This accomplished nothing other than pissing a whole lot of people off, so I'm not sure why you suddenly think that resorting to political assassinations would have any outcome other than further destabilizing an already degraded country.

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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27800172 - 05/31/22 11:23 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Don't really need the leaders.  Just need a website with enough dems onboard to use it.


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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: chopstick]
    #27800173 - 05/31/22 11:24 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

BLM isn't violent, and Antifa isn't even a group.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: chopstick] * 1
    #27800176 - 05/31/22 11:26 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:
There isn't much to do except to live our lives until this nation finally collapses completely, either from climate change, economic factors or both. That time is approaching. Then the onus will be on us to rebuild a better system in the aftermath.

The only thing that can be done with government for the time being is try to limit the damage they do to us and to the world. Allowing a full Democrat takeover at every level of government would accomplish the opposite of this. As we have seen with Biden these idiots are capable of doing great harm in a short timeframe. If this trend continues we will see a nuclear war in our lifetime. Is that what you want?




There are several things wrong with this line of thinking, namely: who do you think is gonna rebuild society if/when it collapses? You think everyone will see the destruction and just become utopian anarchists? Nah.

But more relevant to the thread, the “full democratic takeover” isn’t really the issue here. It’s that Democrats already have had (and right now have) the power necessary to enact these policy positions and they refuse. If your goal is to just to continue giving them an excuse for not acting (the GOP won’t let us) then how do you imagine this cycle breaks? “I’ll wait for the world to end and then rebuild it the way I see fit” is incredibly naive talk coming from the self proclaimed realist here.

The point of the thread is this: if the standard marching orders of “vote in enough democrats that we get what we want” is not electorally feasible, THEN WHAT? What is the alternative?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: chopstick] * 1
    #27800180 - 05/31/22 11:27 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

chopstick said:
Biden gave the greenlight for Ukraine to launch an all out military offensive on Donbass, something Trump would NOT do.

So yes, the "election" of Joe Biden is directly responsible for the major escalation in Ukraine.

If Ukraine hadn't threatened an all out offensive on Donbass, Russia would not have invaded at this time. It's that simple.

On top of that, they refused to give a satisfactory response when Russia gave them the ultimatum on NATO expansion last December. This is another thing Trump would have done differently. He would have actually made an attempt at defusing through diplomacy instead of giving some half-assed nonsense response like Biden's regime did.



Quote:

Kryptos said:
I think choppy has trouble distinguishing between what happens in reality and the fanciful imagination of Tucker Carlson.

The solution might be a brand new weather underground, at this point. Why should Republicans get to monopolize political violence and terrorism? It's like Trump said, sometimes you just need some second amendment folks to free up some seats in the Senate/house/SCOTUS.




It's common sense, it has nothing to do with "MUH TUCKER CARLSONNN".

A zero IQ response from you as usual. I wonder if you are even capable of thinking for yourself at this point.

As for the Democrats, they have already become highly militant and violent with Antifa and BLM. They have already killed, injured & maimed people. This accomplished nothing other than pissing a whole lot of people off, so I'm not sure why you suddenly think that resorting to political assassinations would have any outcome other than further destabilizing an already degraded country.




Can you shut the fuck up about Biden and Ukraine for just one thread? Trying to scrape together one intelligent discussion on this forum. If you have something to contribute to the actual topic then go for it otherwise go back to the other 30 Ukraine threads and scream into the void there.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27800185 - 05/31/22 11:29 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I think choppy has trouble distinguishing between what happens in reality and the fanciful imagination of Tucker Carlson.

The solution might be a brand new weather underground, at this point. Why should Republicans get to monopolize political violence and terrorism? It's like Trump said, sometimes you just need some second amendment folks to free up some seats in the Senate/house/SCOTUS.




I think we are building toward a more militant working class movement, as many have realized our political leaders have either abdicated their duty or are impotent to enact change even if they wanted to.

:thumbup:


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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27800195 - 05/31/22 11:34 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

This thread, as well as other recent discussions you've led, assumes that someone KNOWS what needs to happen to change society for the better.  I don't think that's obviously true, and I believe it's probably false.  Other than single payer healthcare, which is inevitable, I certainly haven't heard anyone here or on capitol hill offer any suggestion of changes that would actually improve things.  Until we know what should be done, it's pretty hard to offer meaningful suggestions about how it could be accomplished.


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Re: What Is To Be Done? *DELETED* [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27800216 - 05/31/22 11:46 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by chopstick

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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: chopstick] * 2
    #27800217 - 05/31/22 11:47 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
“I’ll wait for the world to end and then rebuild it the way I see fit” is incredibly naive talk coming from the self proclaimed realist here.







No you're wrong, this is the realist take. The corrupt mess of a government we have now is not going to miraculously fix itself, ever, regardless if Republicans or Democrats have control. At the same time, it is a verifiable fact that this planet is moving closer towards a breakdown every single day. The writing is on the wall. The only thing that is debatable is what will happen after, and perhaps it is naive to think people will unite. However, there is a chance, no matter how small it may be, that things could change for the better as a result.




Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

Can you shut the fuck up about Biden and Ukraine for just one thread? Trying to scrape together one intelligent discussion on this forum. If you have something to contribute to the actual topic then go for it otherwise go back to the other 30 Ukraine threads and scream into the void there.




Hey pal fuck off. How about that?

Every single one of you that voted for Biden has got the blood of thousands of Ukrainians on your hands.

You truly all deserve to have this rubbed in your faces until the end of time.

"Oh, but Trump was a racist and I would rather risk ww3 and watch tens of thousands of Ukrainians die than have a "racist" president promoting peace instead of war!"

You better pray to God the Dems lose power in 2024, or else things so terrible are going to happen that they will make the war in Ukraine look like a walk in the park.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: chopstick]
    #27800228 - 05/31/22 11:55 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Lmao if you think I’m more complicit than you because I voted for Biden in a state he lost by 200k votes :lol:

You legitimately believe the world will end if a slightly different right wing puppet regime is running Ukraine. Excuse me for not valuing your insight.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27800231 - 05/31/22 11:57 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
This thread, as well as other recent discussions you've led, assumes that someone KNOWS what needs to happen to change society for the better.  I don't think that's obviously true, and I believe it's probably false.  Other than single payer healthcare, which is inevitable, I certainly haven't heard anyone here or on capitol hill offer any suggestion of changes that would actually improve things.  Until we know what should be done, it's pretty hard to offer meaningful suggestions about how it could be accomplished.




The premise of this thread is what can be done to enact progressive policy items, that are wildly popular, given that our elected leaders either refuse to act or are incapable.

Yes, I absolutely believe there’s an agenda that can prescribed to alleviate some of these issues, but that’s not really the point. The point is where do we turn when we know the current iteration of our electoral system is incapable of delivering what the people want. “The people don’t really know what they want or how to fix these problems” doesn’t answer that.


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Re: What Is To Be Done? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27800238 - 05/31/22 12:01 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

It kinda does, though.  If enough people want X, X happens.  That's been clear in the U.S. for as long as I've been alive.  Either you're asking how a numerically smaller group can affect policy to serve their wishes, or you have some clearly false ideas about how popular your chosen policies are.


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