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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: chopstick] 2
#27800319 - 05/31/22 12:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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First, anarchy doesn't mean 'no rules' - it means 'no rulers' - supporting regulation of firearms is not a contradiction. Although I would prefer it happen via different mechanisms, fact is I live in a nation-state that uses a parliamentary system - sometimes practical discussions with people who don't accept anarchist fundamentals requires me to play along.
Second, I referred to this as "mostly performative legislation" so that should tell you how supportive I am of it - I'm just here to correct your hyperbolic misinformation because I abhor attempts to introduce US-type culture wars to the places I live. The breakdown was my attempt to provide a more reasonable description of the legislation, but the only part that I think may prove effective is the parts focused on intimate partner violence - but even here, I think vast systemic changes (like against the very concept of patriarchal society) are necessary.
Third, I provided a link to the legislation itself because such legislation usually has very specific language that isn't always reflected in reports and soundbites. Here's the relevant text on handgun transfers:
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Before: 28 A chief firearms officer may approve the transfer to an individual of a restricted firearm or a handgun referred to in subsection 12(6.1) (pre-December 1, 1998 handguns) only if the chief firearms officer is satisfied
(a) that the individual needs the restricted firearm or handgun
(i) to protect the life of that individual or of other individuals, or
(ii) for use in connection with his or her lawful profession or occupation; or
(b) that the purpose for which the individual wishes to acquire the restricted firearm or handgun is
(i) for use in target practice, or a target shooting competition, under conditions specified in an authorization to transport or under the auspices of a shooting club or shooting range that is approved under section 29, or
(ii) to form part of a gun collection of the individual, in the case of an individual who satisfies the criteria described in section 30.
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After: 28 A chief firearms officer may approve the transfer to an individual of a restricted firearm or a handgun referred to in subsection 12(6.1) (pre-December 1, 1998 handguns) only if the chief firearms officer is satisfied
(a) that the individual needs the restricted firearm or handgun
(i) to protect the life of that individual or of other individuals, or
(ii) for use in connection with his or her lawful profession or occupation; or
(b) that the purpose for which the individual wishes to acquire the restricted firearm or handgun is for use in target practice, in a target shooting competition, under conditions specified in an authorization to transport or under the auspices of a shooting club or shooting range that is approved under section 29; or
(c) in the case of a restricted firearm other than a handgun, that the purpose for which the individual wishes to acquire it is to form part of their gun collection and the individual satisfies the criteria described in section 30.
That isn't exactly something I would describe as "borderline totalitarian gun control policies" or "a staggering abuse of power" by "wannabe dictator." I invite you to direct me to the specific parts of the legislation the make you feel otherwise.
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chopstick
nobody



Registered: 07/26/08
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: Kryptos] 2
#27800327 - 05/31/22 01:02 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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There are 66 million law abiding gun owners in the US.
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The Ecstatic said:
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The Ecstatic said:
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chopstick said:
What kind of loser moves to restrict the freedoms of his people based on something that didn't even happen in his country?
I challenge you to reflect on this statement.
How’s that reflection coming bud
Hey buddy how about you fuck off outta my thread unless you actually have something of value to contribute.
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Asante said: You seem to be creating a nation full of armed lunatics.
It is true that mental health issues are rising. People are less stable than they were before, for a variety of reasons.
Still, the majority of gun owners *are* law abiding, not crazy, which means disarming all of them would just screw over everyone, and meanwhile shady characters of all types could continue to get guns in the black market.
It's easy to give in to fear when something bad happens. But that is exactly what the people who push that fear want. They want us afraid so they can push the changes onto us they could not have done otherwise. Something like the Patriot Act.
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Kryptos said:
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chopstick said:and then there are individual state policies, who can literally ignore federal policy if they want.
No they can't. That's literally illegal under the pre-emption clause. Of course, you're a right winger, and a common belief on the right is that the law is whatever they say, not actually what is written in the lawbooks.
And yet they have done exactly that: https://gunwars.news21.com/2014/eight-states-have-passed-laws-voiding-federal-firearms-regulations/
As for your arrogant statement about being a right-winger (because of course it's impossible for someone to formulate their own opinions without receiving such a label), there are many things I could say about left-wingers, but I'd prefer not to.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: chopstick] 3
#27800338 - 05/31/22 01:14 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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self-reflection is immeasurably valuable
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Kryptos
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: chopstick]
#27800364 - 05/31/22 01:30 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
chopstick said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
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chopstick said:and then there are individual state policies, who can literally ignore federal policy if they want.
No they can't. That's literally illegal under the pre-emption clause. Of course, you're a right winger, and a common belief on the right is that the law is whatever they say, not actually what is written in the lawbooks.
And yet they have done exactly that: https://gunwars.news21.com/2014/eight-states-have-passed-laws-voiding-federal-firearms-regulations/
As for your arrogant statement about being a right-winger (because of course it's impossible for someone to formulate their own opinions without receiving such a label), there are many things I could say about left-wingers, but I'd prefer not to.
Oh, look at that, eight Republican controlled states doing criminal things, because why would I ever expect republicans to do basic things like follow the law?
Again, Republicans seems to believe the law is whatever they say, not what the actual lawbooks say.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,640
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27800389 - 05/31/22 01:43 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Again, Republicans seems to believe the law is whatever they say, not what the actual lawbooks say.
They are so used to bullshitting that they think everybody is.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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chopstick
nobody



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Loc: Chin's Wok
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27800410 - 05/31/22 01:57 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Oh, look at that, eight Republican controlled states doing criminal things, because why would I ever expect republicans to do basic things like follow the law?
Again, Republicans seems to believe the law is whatever they say, not what the actual lawbooks say.
Actually no, they are following the Constitution to the letter. Something that Democrats would love to do away with.
The fact that we have states rights in the first place is a bloody miracle. It's a huge tool to fight against federal government overreach and attempts at arbitrarily restricting rights based on random media-inflated fearporn by politicians that long ago sold out their constituents.
But I know you would love to be able to watch everyone be forced to obey "authority" even when it is a corrupt authority pushing unconstitutional measures.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: chopstick]
#27800416 - 05/31/22 02:02 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Imagine thinking democrats want to get rid of the constitution lmao.
I fucking wish.
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chopstick
nobody



Registered: 07/26/08
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Loc: Chin's Wok
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: shivas.wisdom] 2
#27800427 - 05/31/22 02:06 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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In a truly free country, gun ownership would not be restricted by a corrupt government that also just so happens to send out the stormtroopers to literally trample its own citizens on horses for the mere "crime" of complaining about something as disgusting and corrupt as a government forcing people out of jobs for refusing to get a questionable and shoddy vaccine that hardly even works, for entirely political reasons, like Canada.
Just like how drug laws would not exist in a truly free country either.
A shame the founding fathers didn't have the foresight to put an amendment against reprehensible drug laws & profit-based mass incarceration on the books, but hey - atleast they got some things right. The things they *did* get right should be protected, because if those are taken from us as well, then it's just another step towards our collective enslavement.
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chopstick
nobody



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Posts: 5,252
Loc: Chin's Wok
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#27800428 - 05/31/22 02:08 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Imagine thinking democrats want to get rid of the constitution lmao.
Yes because all the constant attacks they lead against the first and second amendments are just for show, and have nothing at all to do with removing inconvenient restrictions to the power they would like to wield.
I understand you are led by your cynicism (I am at times as well), but this does not give you a free pass to be naive and ignore the obvious.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: chopstick] 1
#27800435 - 05/31/22 02:13 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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That's a lovely speech, but what do the originators of US government have to do with Canada, or your claim that "Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting"?
Can you refer me to the specific legislative changes, or will you just keep serving random media-inflated fearporn?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: chopstick]
#27800448 - 05/31/22 02:23 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
chopstick said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Imagine thinking democrats want to get rid of the constitution lmao.
Yes because all the constant attacks they lead against the first and second amendments are just for show, and have nothing at all to do with removing inconvenient restrictions to the power they would like to wield.
I understand you are led by your cynicism (I am at times as well), but this does not give you a free pass to be naive and ignore the obvious.
The obvious is that the Constitution is a right wing framework written by right wing ideologues and protected by two right wing political parties.
It’s never been under serious threat of being gotten rid of. To the extent it’s changed at all has only served to preserve its legitimacy.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: chopstick]
#27800492 - 05/31/22 03:04 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
chopstick said: In a truly free country, gun ownership would not be restricted by a corrupt government that also just so happens to send out the stormtroopers to literally trample its own citizens on horses for the mere "crime" of complaining about something as disgusting and corrupt as a government forcing people out of jobs for refusing to get a questionable and shoddy vaccine that hardly even works, for entirely political reasons, like Canada.
Just like how drug laws would not exist in a truly free country either.
A shame the founding fathers didn't have the foresight to put an amendment against reprehensible drug laws & profit-based mass incarceration on the books, but hey - atleast they got some things right. The things they *did* get right should be protected, because if those are taken from us as well, then it's just another step towards our collective enslavement.
Your version of "free country" sounds more like "free-for-all." A nation without drug laws is a nation that cares not for the safety of its citizens. Your version of "free country" would be one where you can walk into a store to buy Tylenol and die of a fentanyl overdose from taking it.
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Kryptos
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: chopstick]
#27800593 - 05/31/22 04:32 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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You're simply looking at it wrong.
For choppy, freedom means he gets to do whatever the fuck he wants and other people have to cater to his desires. Common GOP refrain.
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chopstick said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Oh, look at that, eight Republican controlled states doing criminal things, because why would I ever expect republicans to do basic things like follow the law?
Again, Republicans seems to believe the law is whatever they say, not what the actual lawbooks say.
Actually no, they are following the Constitution to the letter. Something that Democrats would love to do away with.
The fact that we have states rights in the first place is a bloody miracle. It's a huge tool to fight against federal government overreach and attempts at arbitrarily restricting rights based on random media-inflated fearporn by politicians that long ago sold out their constituents.
But I know you would love to be able to watch everyone be forced to obey "authority" even when it is a corrupt authority pushing unconstitutional measures.
No, they are not. The constitution says that the federal government has final say and overrules states laws when they conflict. The states you are talking about are explicitly violating the constitution because they...well, want to do crime. That's really it.
If state's rights mattered, then the GOP wouldn't be crying about states choosing to enforce gun laws. But, here we are, and you're crying about a foreign country enforcing reasonable gun laws.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,514
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27800596 - 05/31/22 04:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Your post illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the Constitution. The federal government only has "final say" when it comes to things it has power to legislate, which is very little.
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Kryptos
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: Enlil] 1
#27800599 - 05/31/22 04:36 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Far as I can tell, SCOTUS hasn't yet ruled that the second amendment allows totally unrestricted gun ownership, so federal laws limiting gun ownership are still constitutional, and take precedence over state laws.
Although I would not be surprised if that changed in the next few months. Lot of gun smugglers gonna be pissed when the iron pipeline shuts down. I guess they'll have to drive to Canada.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27800602 - 05/31/22 04:38 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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The federal government doesn't have the power to legislate firearms unless those firearms somehow involve interstate commerce. A gun wholly manufactured in a state in which it is sold is likely exempt from any federal legislation.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27800606 - 05/31/22 04:41 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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To be fair, the federal government has the power to do whatever the courts and state governments don’t stop them from doing.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: The Ecstatic]
#27800611 - 05/31/22 04:43 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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As do you.
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Kryptos
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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27800634 - 05/31/22 04:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The federal government doesn't have the power to legislate firearms unless those firearms somehow involve interstate commerce. A gun wholly manufactured in a state in which it is sold is likely exempt from any federal legislation.
Under that logic, destructive device legislation could not apply within states and I could make a grenade launcher for personal use as long as I didn't cross any state lines.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Trudeau moves to ban handguns based on US shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27800650 - 05/31/22 05:12 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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If it's legal under your state's laws, yes. But you better make sure you don't source any materials that crossed state or national borders
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