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Kryptos
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Another shooting 2
#27793427 - 05/26/22 08:37 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I really hope the gun is okay. It didn't jam or anything, did it? Was it properly cleaned afterwards, and wiped down with a fine chamois? Maybe we should buy it a new case to help it get over the trauma.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos] 1
#27793450 - 05/26/22 09:00 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Biggest takeaway here is that there was a student resource officer that confronted the shooter, did nothing, armed cops outside that confronted the shooter, did nothing.
Every iteration of “security” at the school was pointless, and yet we won’t hear anything in the media except “what new guns can we buy the cops to make sure this doesn’t happen again?”
Oh and the cops lied and said the shooter had body armor when he didn’t, so they had an excuse to sit outside and harass the parents for 90 minutes while children were being slaughtered.
I guess you could make an argument that an 18 year old shouldn’t be able to buy 2 AR-15s in like a 72 hour turnaround, but this is Texas, that’s not going to change and the check is supposed to be “everyone has guns even the good guys.” Well the good guys didn’t do jack shit here.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27793549 - 05/26/22 10:39 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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It's very unlikely that it has been cleaned after. The gunman was shot, so his firearm probably got collected as evidence. Cleaning it would remove a lot of the evidence on the gun.
This problem is as old as humanity. This is just the most recent expression of the problem. Serial killers can't really thrive like they used to, so those people just shoot up schools now.
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chopstick
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos] 2
#27793564 - 05/26/22 10:49 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Complete failure of the police to confront the shooter.
This is the exact same scenario that played out as several other shootings.
At this point one can only assume that it is police policy to stand around and do nothing while an active shooter takes out as many civilians inside a building as they can. Gotta "wait for backup" and "develop a plan" to take down the shooter instead of taking immediate action...
Understandably, there is a lot of outrage right now at how the police failed to do anything to stop this guy...
It definitely confuses me. Like, what the fuck..
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: chopstick] 3
#27793570 - 05/26/22 10:52 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Cops only like to use their guns on unarmed people of color.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27793602 - 05/26/22 11:19 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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They did manage to draw tasers on parents outside for daring to ask them to do their jobs. I guess they count as unarmed.
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Psilynut2
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The whole good guy with a gun thing is such bullshit , it takes a really special person to run towards a guy with a semi auto rifle dumping 30 rd mags at you . 99% of people will run and hide , that's true for law enforcement to . Apparently the guy was stopped by a border patrol agent , the guy got shot in the process .
This shit really creeped me out , I have a kid in 4th grade , every year there are 3 to 4 threats made on her school and it goes into lock down . It's permanent locked now , I can't just walk in anymore . If I moved to Colombia I would feel like my kids are safer in school there .
Edited by Psilynut2 (05/26/22 11:35 AM)
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: They did manage to draw tasers on parents outside for daring to ask them to do their jobs. I guess they count as unarmed.
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koods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: chopstick]
#27793685 - 05/26/22 01:02 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
chopstick said: Complete failure of the police to confront the shooter.
This is the exact same scenario that played out as several other shootings.
Good guy with a gun theory fails again
Maybe it’s time to stop letting gun owners decide how to regulate themselves
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: koods]
#27793689 - 05/26/22 01:06 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Cops are such pussies. They let this kid execute children for an hour before doing anything.
They are also lying. After saying they interviewed the school resource officer, now they are saying there was no school resource officer
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (05/26/22 01:15 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: koods]
#27793697 - 05/26/22 01:20 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Well, maybe that's the point...they had to interview him to find out that he didn't exist.
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27794810 - 05/27/22 08:02 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Looks like the NRA is going to be banning guns at their convention during the Trump speech.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27794839 - 05/27/22 08:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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They said that was a requirement given his secret service detail. The Governor of Texas cancelled his appearance as did the gunmaker of this shooting. I'm not certain of the veracity of this but I saw a TV piece where that company earlier posted a picture of a small child cradling an AR-15 with a bible verse that basically said teach your children well. That would seem to be great lawsuit material. They are based out of Georgia, which is probably at least somewhat more plaintiff friendly than Texas, but IDK how that works.
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chopstick
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The gun grabbers jumped on this faster than a fly gravitates to shit. Interesting how they need overwhelming irrational emotional reactions to pass "gun control" that won't even fix the issue. It's almost like when people are cool and level headed and using their brains they realize gun control isn't the answer, meaning they NEED events like this one to push their agenda.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Another shooting [Re: chopstick]
#27794997 - 05/27/22 11:23 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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If the problem isnt that crazy people can walk into a store and walk out with two ar15s then what is causing this ?
I saw Ted Cruz get asked the Question " why does this only happen in America ? " and he just ran away . The self described great debater had nothing to say or any balls to even look people in the eye .
In CA you have to be 21 and you have to wait 10 days to pick up your gun and then another 30 to purchase another one , that could of made all the difference but if I had to guess I would say Texas politicians are more worried about regulating Vaginas .
Edited by Psilynut2 (05/27/22 11:31 AM)
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Psilynut2]
#27795016 - 05/27/22 11:40 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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The problem is clearly the crazy people in the first place.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: chopstick] 1
#27795066 - 05/27/22 12:20 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
chopstick said: The gun grabbers jumped on this faster than a fly gravitates to shit. Interesting how they need overwhelming irrational emotional reactions to pass "gun control" that won't even fix the issue. It's almost like when people are cool and level headed and using their brains they realize gun control isn't the answer, meaning they NEED events like this one to push their agenda.
I’m a fan of the 2nd amendment but it’s pretty obvious that the only country having a shitload of guns also being the only country with a shitload of shootings means there’s a solid correlation there.
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Enlil
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Countries that have a lot of sheep also tend to consume a lot of lamb dishes.
The availability of guns makes shooting the chosen method of psychopaths in the U.S. There's no doubt about that. The problem is having unidentified psychopaths, though.
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795076 - 05/27/22 12:30 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Perhaps we should just do a periodic societal sweep and lock up anybody that frequents incel, militia, or 4chan content.
That's probably a lot easier than a background check for anyone trying to buy a gun.
I dunno man, at this point I'm just praying that the next shooter shoots up a gun rally. Probably get a better bodycount from the crossfire.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27795078 - 05/27/22 12:32 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Certainly more effective than a background check. What do you really think is going to show up on an 18 year old's background check?
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chopstick
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795085 - 05/27/22 12:37 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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There are a lot of questions about this case which haven't been answered.
How did the shooter acquire two expensive AR's, a dozen magazines and hundreds of rounds of ammunition when he apparently only worked part-time at wendy's for the past year? It has been said he comes from a poor family and he couldn't even afford nice clothes, let alone two decked out AR15's, both of which even came with expensive $700 optics.
His grandpa was interviewed as saying he didn't know how to drive and would have needed someone to both take him to the gun shop as well as learn how to shoot. This guy was an accurate enough of a shot to injure two officers before going into the school. How and where did he train? On top of that his grandpa is a felon and said he would have thrown the guns out if he knew about them.
How was he secretly able to acquire two expensive rifles and train with them despite being poor, not knowing how to drive and not owning a car? Did someone help him do this?
I'm not saying this was staged. But there are a lot of questions that need to be answered here for the public to have a good idea of how this kid was able to do this.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: chopstick] 1
#27795087 - 05/27/22 12:39 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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A part-time job at wendys could have bought two rifles. That's not far fetched at all. It's not like he paid rent. Besides, it appears he only had one rifle and one handgun. I've also seen no evidence it was a particularly expensive rifle at all.
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koods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27795134 - 05/27/22 01:21 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Perhaps we should just do a periodic societal sweep and lock up anybody that frequents incel, militia, or 4chan content.
That's probably a lot easier than a background check for anyone trying to buy a gun.
I dunno man, at this point I'm just praying that the next shooter shoots up a gun rally. Probably get a better bodycount from the crossfire.
If you post a picture of yourself with a gun across your chest, your guns should be seized. That would prevent half the mass shootings in this country
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (05/27/22 01:21 PM)
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koods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: koods] 1
#27795138 - 05/27/22 01:24 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
How did the shooter acquire two expensive AR's, a dozen magazines and hundreds of rounds of ammunition when he apparently only worked part-time at wendy's for the past year?
This is what is bothering you? That he was too poor to afford the guns? He saved his money to buy guns instead of spending it on normal teenage things. Seems like he had a plan. He bought the guns the first day he could legally do so. He used them to kill 21 people less than a week later.
You sorta answered your own questions. He probably could afford the guns because he didn’t own a car.
Edited by koods (05/27/22 01:26 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil] 1
#27795140 - 05/27/22 01:26 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Countries that have a lot of sheep also tend to consume a lot of lamb dishes.
The availability of guns makes shooting the chosen method of psychopaths in the U.S. There's no doubt about that. The problem is having unidentified psychopaths, though.
Cop letting a kid with two AR-15s and 30 extra magazines waltz into an elementary school unmolested: “well I don’t wanna jump to any conclusions.”
Maybe identifying him prior to buying the guns would’ve done something, but the state knew in enough advance of his psychopathy to prevent the shooting and they fucked that up too.
We also have the most thorough and sophisticated surveillance dragnet in world history, didn’t help.
Serious question here: does your consistent “the problem is there’s no real solution” take on every topic here make it easier to get through the day, or is it a moderation tactic? Do you really believe it?
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koods
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Quote:
We also have the most thorough and sophisticated surveillance dragnet in world history, didn’t help.
We don’t tho. You can pretty much get away with anything if you’re smart about it
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Enlil
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Serious question here: does your consistent “the problem is there’s no real solution” take on every topic here make it easier to get through the day, or is it a moderation tactic? Do you really believe it?
It's pretty easy to get through the day anyway, so I don't think that really plays into it.
There simply are problems that are innate in humans. Murder is certainly one of those problems. If you believe the Bible, the first human ever born killed the second human ever born. By all accounts, this pattern has persisted ever since. I realize that it's fun to pretend that we can sit here on an internet forum and solve the longstanding human problems, but every generation has pondered these same problems without any success.
My question to you is: do you really believe there is a solution?
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795170 - 05/27/22 01:59 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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To completely eliminate murder? No. To better protect ourselves and communities from violence, and better address some of the contributing causes? Yes.
Quote:
What is the solution, then? What can we do to put a stop to mass shootings?
If the police exist to protect the wealthy (and themselves), then as disparities in wealth and power increase, the police will protect fewer and fewer people. This is not a sign of their failure; it is precisely what they have always done.
The gulf between the wealthy and the poor has steadily increased for decades now, alongside police violence and mass shootings. The resulting desperation and despair contribute to people becoming mass shooters. The same goes for the scapegoating and demagoguery that arise in such a profoundly unequal, fearful, and acrimonious society. If we want to stop the shootings, in the long run, we have to abolish all the mechanisms that create these inequalities, and all the forces that preserve capitalism, white supremacy, and patriarchy. In this regard, the fight to stop mass shootings must set itself much broader goals if it is to succeed.
During active shooter drills at schools across the United States today, children are taught that their best bet in the event of a shooting is to fight back—to throw textbooks or chairs or whatever they can get their hands on at the shooter. This is the response of a society that doesn’t intend to protect children, that never has protected them. It indicates that we really are on our own. We have to understand this and start organizing accordingly, rather than putting our faith in politicians of any party.
One of the fundamental roles of police is to discourage us from solving problems ourselves, so we defer both our own safety and the resolution of conflict to the authorities. Yet most parents will risk more to protect their children than the police ever will. What would have been necessary for the parents in Uvalde to have been able to successfully address the shooting themselves, in defiance of the police? What grassroots institutions would need to exist, what resources and skills would need to circulate? It’s horrifying to acknowledge, but we are in a situation in which more and more of us really have no better option.
If it’s up to us to address these shootings, then rather than looking to the Democrats to tighten gun control via legislation and police action, we might begin by asking what a direct action campaign targeting the gun industry itself might look like. What if we could sidestep the Rube Goldberg machine of party politics entirely to cut into the profit margins of the corporations that have been making a killing selling firearms?
There is no safety without self-determination. To be safe, we have to be the ones who define what counts as safety, and we have to have the power to shape the conditions of our lives. So far, the most effective participants in the movement against mass shootings have been the students who have staged walkouts from their schools. Another starting point is to make sure that student organizers have all the support and resources they require as they figure out for themselves how best to preserve their lives.
If school has taught today’s students anything, it is that those who make decisions on their behalf do not always have their best interests at heart. In the world that they are entering—fraught with tremendous disparities, threatened by climate catastrophe, and wracked by civil conflict—the most important thing they could learn is how to act collectively to defend each other. That is the skill they are going to need, more than any prerequisites or job training.
Their Guns Won’t Protect You, but They Can Get You Killed - Why Neither Policing nor Gun Control Will Suffice to Stop the Shootings
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Enlil
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Can you give an example of a society with significantly less violence?
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795225 - 05/27/22 02:41 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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That's a strawman question.
Me poking you is technically violence, and so is me shooting you. Would you rather I poke you or shoot you? Or do you see those as situations with equal outcomes?
There are many countries with comparable rates of violence, but there are very few countries with comparable rates of lethal violence.
Because a crazy spree killer in the rest of the world basically means a few people get stabbed, and maybe one or two die. In the US, it means one or two dozen die.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27795234 - 05/27/22 02:48 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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There's no strawman there. He's talking about a reduction in violence. I'm asking if there is a place that has accomplished that. It's a fair question, and if you don't have an answer to it, maybe he does.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795263 - 05/27/22 03:05 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Can you give an example of a society with significantly less violence?
Well, the USA has one of the highest rates of violent crime for any developed country - so quite a few societies exist with significantly less violence than the USA. The USA also has one of the highest rates of economic inequality for any developed county. This all alludes to the first aspect, "the gulf between the wealthy and the poor". Canada certainly isn't perfect in it's own right, but the rate of violent crime and economic inequality are both lesser than our southern neighbour - contrasting the two societies can certainly provide some insight on what could be done differently/better.
As for the second aspect, "there is no safety without self-determination" - I don't think any current nation-state has fully adopted this principle as it directly contrasts with the necessary monopoly of violence by state authority - but speaking of personal experience on the micro-level - I have felt safest living in communities where police don't venture but I know and trust my neighbours.
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Enlil
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I don't agree that the U.S. has one of the highest rate of violent crime for any developed country, but it is certainly higher than Canada. I agree that there are things we can look at to possibly help the situation. I think access to mental health services is a big one.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795381 - 05/27/22 04:43 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The problem is clearly the crazy people in the first place.
Crazy people are a problem because they can get guns that can easily shoot holes through standard police body armor , and bullets are light you can carry allot . That kid wouldn't have been a problem or even a threat to me without his gun . If he had walked in there with a flame thrower he had just bought at harbor freight , torched the whole class and blew up the other side of the school when the thing malfunctioned like everything from that store does , would we say the fact that he bought a flame thrower wasn't the problem ?
Edited by Psilynut2 (05/27/22 04:48 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Psilynut2]
#27795391 - 05/27/22 04:55 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Yes. It would be the crazy person. Crazy people find a way to do crazy things.
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mycosis


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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795431 - 05/27/22 05:29 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: A part-time job at wendys could have bought two rifles. That's not far fetched at all. It's not like he paid rent. Besides, it appears he only had one rifle and one handgun. I've also seen no evidence it was a particularly expensive rifle at all.
If you can believe the pictures going around one of the two rifles was a Daniel Defense DDM4 V7 with an Eotech optic. You're talking about $2600 minimum probably more. That's not even counting ammo, mags, and the ceramic armor plates they're saying he had.
Not saying the kid couldn't afford it but it wasn't a trash can rifle either.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Another shooting [Re: mycosis]
#27795555 - 05/27/22 06:51 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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If he had bought a California rifle he would have had to break the rifle open to reload it every 10 shots or carry a 5 gallon bucket full of 10 round mags . He would have needed a fake to buy it also .
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Psilynut2]
#27795585 - 05/27/22 07:03 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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It's very easy to remove the lockout that prevents a mag from being changed without separating the upper and lower.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795598 - 05/27/22 07:13 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Why would he wish to alter his gun that way instead of blowing grandmas face off the way he bought it ?
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Psilynut2]
#27795601 - 05/27/22 07:13 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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To kill more people, probably.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795634 - 05/27/22 07:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Ya probably . Someone just called my wife and pretended to be one of our neighbors using her first name saying they want to talk about school safety in light of this incident. Then they asked her to go to a website to learn more and it was fucking Jehovas Witnesses . I honestly thought knocking in my door was the stupidest thing they could do .
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27795679 - 05/27/22 07:51 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Serious question here: does your consistent “the problem is there’s no real solution” take on every topic here make it easier to get through the day, or is it a moderation tactic? Do you really believe it?
It's pretty easy to get through the day anyway, so I don't think that really plays into it.
There simply are problems that are innate in humans. Murder is certainly one of those problems. If you believe the Bible, the first human ever born killed the second human ever born. By all accounts, this pattern has persisted ever since. I realize that it's fun to pretend that we can sit here on an internet forum and solve the longstanding human problems, but every generation has pondered these same problems without any success.
My question to you is: do you really believe there is a solution?
Thanks for the response.
If the problem is humans being violent then no I don’t think there’s a solution. But we can certainly curb the problem without making unacceptable restrictions on life itself.
I’m not trying to flame or anything, it just hit me that you always seem to take the middle ground in these types of debates and tend to fall on the “it’s a fact of life” conclusion. I can’t think of a time you’ve ever suggested an approach to any problem that is fundamentally different than what has been recently attempted. Is there a problem you think could be substantially mitigated by an approach that’s outside mainstream thought? Doesn’t necessarily have to be a political issue I’m just curious.
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Enlil
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In fairness, the reason we have these problems is because we haven't solved them. I realize that it's not a great feeling to know that billions of people can't figure this shit out after thousands of years of civilization, but that's the reality. I've noticed that you tend to fallback on some belief that solutions are intentionally being hidden or avoided because of corruption, greed, power struggle, etc. I used to think like that, too. After 30 years of raging against the machine, I've come to realize that the machine, for the most part, was built to make the best of shitty human nature and reduce the harm we do to ourselves.
I know that's not a satisfying answer. I know you want to believe that if we just work at it, utopia is still feasible. Unfortunately, people are every bit as fucked up as we act. The simple answer is that there is no simple answer. Every solution creates more problems. Society is a bundle of compromises intended to minimize the damage we do to ourselves and others
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ballsalsa
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27795786 - 05/27/22 08:53 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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The U.S. has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. For 2 decades it dropped dramatically along with the rest of the developed world at approximately the same rate regardless of how strict the respective firearm restrictions became or didn't. In the U.S. the expiration of the assault rifle ban did nothing to slow the decline in homicides and only in the last couple years has there been an uptick in the rate.
Koods and I once argued this to death but I'm too lazy to search up the links right now
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
#27795859 - 05/27/22 10:09 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Amongst western fully developed democracies, the US homicide rate is a huge outlier. 2-5 times higher.
The ten year period when the assault weapons ban was in effect, the murder rate fell faster than any other time since the 1960s
Canada, France, the UK, Germany, pretty much all the European countries have a homicide rate between 1 and 2 per 100k. The US is around 7.
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Edited by koods (05/27/22 10:12 PM)
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ballsalsa
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Re: Another shooting [Re: koods]
#27795862 - 05/27/22 10:17 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I've demonstrated to you before that the ban can't tell the whole story at least in part because of the reasons I outlined above.
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koods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
#27795867 - 05/27/22 10:23 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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The mid nineties were a magical almost utopian moment in American history. The streets were paved with gold, Prozac was making everyone easy going, and I was getting laid constantly
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Asante
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil] 1
#27795989 - 05/28/22 02:30 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Can you give an example of a society with significantly less violence?
Japan? Germany? The US is high on the list of violent countries.
Everybodies pet Switzerland comes to mind, as much guns as the US, homicide rate 0.002% instead of 4+%
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil] 1
#27796183 - 05/28/22 08:24 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: In fairness, the reason we have these problems is because we haven't solved them. I realize that it's not a great feeling to know that billions of people can't figure this shit out after thousands of years of civilization, but that's the reality. I've noticed that you tend to fallback on some belief that solutions are intentionally being hidden or avoided because of corruption, greed, power struggle, etc. I used to think like that, too. After 30 years of raging against the machine, I've come to realize that the machine, for the most part, was built to make the best of shitty human nature and reduce the harm we do to ourselves.
I know that's not a satisfying answer. I know you want to believe that if we just work at it, utopia is still feasible. Unfortunately, people are every bit as fucked up as we act. The simple answer is that there is no simple answer. Every solution creates more problems. Society is a bundle of compromises intended to minimize the damage we do to ourselves and others
Except WE are the only ones that have this particular problem, the problem of a guy with a gun walking into _____ and killing ____ adults and ____ kids in _____.
This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US. So either other people have managed to figure out a solution, or people born within the US are genetically more shooty.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27796200 - 05/28/22 08:43 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: In fairness, the reason we have these problems is because we haven't solved them. I realize that it's not a great feeling to know that billions of people can't figure this shit out after thousands of years of civilization, but that's the reality. I've noticed that you tend to fallback on some belief that solutions are intentionally being hidden or avoided because of corruption, greed, power struggle, etc. I used to think like that, too. After 30 years of raging against the machine, I've come to realize that the machine, for the most part, was built to make the best of shitty human nature and reduce the harm we do to ourselves.
I know that's not a satisfying answer. I know you want to believe that if we just work at it, utopia is still feasible. Unfortunately, people are every bit as fucked up as we act. The simple answer is that there is no simple answer. Every solution creates more problems. Society is a bundle of compromises intended to minimize the damage we do to ourselves and others
I’m just saying there’s a pretty large chasm between where we are now, struggling to come to terms with the effects of the industrial revolution, and utopia. I think a lot of the frustration is that, in many cases, we aren’t even simply treading water, things are getting worse.
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Enlil
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Of course things are getting worse. They're going to continue to get worse. Humans aren't going to evolve significantly. That takes millions of years. In contrast, our technology is growing exponentially. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that technology has surpassed our ability to responsibly use it. That problem is going to get larger and larger.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Asante]
#27796279 - 05/28/22 09:59 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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those aren't real numbers.
If you think that the homicide rate in the U.S. is 4/100 you need to think harder. That would add up to about 14 million homicides per year, my dude.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27796280 - 05/28/22 09:59 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Except WE are the only ones that have this particular problem, the problem of a guy with a gun walking into _____ and killing ____ adults and ____ kids in _____.
This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US. So either other people have managed to figure out a solution, or people born within the US are genetically more shooty.
It's not universal YET. It will be. America is the leader of technology and excess. We're going to demonstrate most of these types of problems first. Eventually, the world will follow.
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27796309 - 05/28/22 10:35 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Except WE are the only ones that have this particular problem, the problem of a guy with a gun walking into _____ and killing ____ adults and ____ kids in _____.
This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US. So either other people have managed to figure out a solution, or people born within the US are genetically more shooty.
It's not universal YET. It will be. America is the leader of technology and excess. We're going to demonstrate most of these types of problems first. Eventually, the world will follow.
I think we're behind the curve. See, in places where explosives are pretty easy to come by, suicide bombings are pretty common. In places where guns are relatively easy to come by, suicide shootings are pretty common. In places where knives are easy to come by, stabbings are pretty common.
If we were at the forefront, we'd be talking about a guy walking into a school and detonating a 50 pound vest. Because explosives are an objective upgrade over guns, especially in buildings.
But we're not talking about that, because we're at the forefront of specifically gun violence. Something tells me that some crazy religious militia nutters in the middle east aren't going to downgrade, and that some crazy religious militia nutters in the EU aren't going to upgrade. And the crazy religious militia nutters in the US will keep their guns.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27796310 - 05/28/22 10:36 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Guns are going to become more easy to come by everywhere on the planet. Get used to the idea.
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil] 1
#27796316 - 05/28/22 10:45 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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That's a statement you're gonna have to back up with evidence.
Because Europe seems to be showing the exact opposite trend. After the bans put in place in the 90s, guns became a lot harder to come by, and gun-related deaths went down across the board. Some places, all deaths went down across the board.
Guns will only become easier to get in places like the US, where somehow, the ~7% of US adults who oppose any sort of background checks or mental health screenings for gun owners seem to have more votes than the other 93%.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27796318 - 05/28/22 10:47 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
Except WE are the only ones that have this particular problem, the problem of a guy with a gun walking into _____ and killing ____ adults and ____ kids in _____.
This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US. So either other people have managed to figure out a solution, or people born within the US are genetically more shooty.
It's not universal YET. It will be. America is the leader of technology and excess. We're going to demonstrate most of these types of problems first. Eventually, the world will follow.
As a materialist I want to agree with this, but I think it’s mostly social and cultural factors that explains our mass shooter obsession.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27796321 - 05/28/22 10:48 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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You want me to present evidence of a future prediction?
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27796326 - 05/28/22 10:57 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: You want me to present evidence of a future prediction?
Yes, because your future prediction, that of the future ubiquity of guns, carries a certain implication of policy, that of nothing can be done. It also carries a certain aspect of self-fulfilling prophecy. It's the global warming argument all over again.
It also sounds eerily like the current GOP line, which is...well, at this point frustratingly nonsensical. They're not even blaming lack of armed response, or mental health anymore. They're blaming the fact that there are too many doors. The incoherence is the point, it's designed to frustrate normal people into giving up. Because that's how they win. That's how everybody in Germany became a Nazi, they got tired of fighting the Nazis and wanted to just live their lives without being harassed. It's how gangs recruit people--we jump you, you join us, or we jump you again tomorrow.
So, I offer you a counter-prediction. Gun violence and the presence of guns will decrease in the developed world, with the exception of the US, where gun violence will rapidly increase. I expect gun violence will also increase modestly in Russia, Ukraine, and Yemen, as well as a few other active battlefields that I don't know off the top of my head, but will decrease soon after as guns leave the local circulation.
I think 100k deaths by shooting per year is not outside of the realm of possibility for the US in my lifetime.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27796327 - 05/28/22 11:02 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Gun violence has not exactly been rapidly climbing in America, but who knows...your crystal ball may be right. Nonetheless, as time goes on, people around the world will be more easily able to create guns in their homes. They will become more available. That's unavoidable, and no amount of policy or law is going to change that.
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Lynnch
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27796360 - 05/28/22 11:44 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I dunno.. I think it would be kinda great if the only way to commit a mass murder was to have to build a gun yourself. That would at least cut down the odds of the lazy/stupid among us of obtaining a firearm.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Lynnch]
#27796381 - 05/28/22 12:05 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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There are infinite hypothetical realities that would be great. The one you presented isn't the one we live in, however. Also, the lazy and the stupid aren't really the ones who pose a threat.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27796411 - 05/28/22 12:41 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Marx once said “the philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways, the point is to change it.”
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Enlil
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He Clearly had no idea what he was talking about. The world is already a wonderful place. Why change it?
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27796551 - 05/28/22 03:14 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Gun violence has not exactly been rapidly climbing in America, but who knows...your crystal ball may be right. Nonetheless, as time goes on, people around the world will be more easily able to create guns in their homes. They will become more available. That's unavoidable, and no amount of policy or law is going to change that.
Gun related deaths in the US have been steadily climbing since roughly 2000, with a sharp increase ever since 2016.
Suicides have been the slow and steady climb, but homicides have really taken off since 2016. Guns have recently surpassed cars in deaths per year. As car regulations improve, deaths by car continue to drop.
As much as everybody talks about the easy manufacture of guns, especially with 3d printers and such, for some reason, all the shootings seems top use store bought guns. You would expect that the EU would be swamped in 3d printed gun violence if that was the case, but alas it is not. Gun violence in the EU keeps going down. It's really only the US that gun violence is rising (not counting active war zones).
Again, we Americans must just be racially predisposed to shooting each other. We must be inherently more violent than normal people.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27797076 - 05/28/22 11:08 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Culturally.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27797367 - 05/29/22 07:28 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I keep thinking after (pick a #) a couple hundred more of these they would have to go with some kind of limited gun control, but probably not with this Supreme Court lineup.
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The Ecstatic
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There’s a pretty easy litmus test for these things, which is “what was done between 08-10?” The liberals had the presidency, a filibuster proof senate, a house majority, and a majority on the Supreme Court. What did that afford us? A right wing healthcare policy.
So if by some miracle half the Court dies and the Dems have monumental victories in the midterms, we will still get nothing.
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Brian Jones
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You're probably right. It just seems like at some point there will be enough pressure for some fragment of gun control. But slippery slope so probably not.
I read a few days ago Pelosi was backing some anti-abortion candidate over a pro-choice opponent. They're going to have to a better job of pretending.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Asante
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27797418 - 05/29/22 08:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
Again, we Americans must just be racially predisposed to shooting each other. We must be inherently more violent than normal people.
Americans aren't a race, they are a loosely assembled cultural group.
Like Enlil said before, your group of cultures is very competitive, also, you glorify wealth and power over personal integrity. Americans have a combination of glorifying the winner and disparaging the loser.
Its very American to dehumanize and withhold basic human consideration to those not of your choosing.
In discussion, everything the opponent says must be destroyed, regardless of whether some of the opponents points are correct and whether the tactics you use have any other merit than opposing.
You're a Total War kind of people.
Its really not strange you have so many people acting like its the zombie apocalypse, in fact its strange it doesnt happen more often - yet.
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: You're probably right. It just seems like at some point there will be enough pressure for some fragment of gun control. But slippery slope so probably not.
I read a few days ago Pelosi was backing some anti-abortion candidate over a pro-choice opponent. They're going to have to a better job of pretending.
Yeah the guy ended up winning by 175 votes, Democratic leadership crushed the pro choice candidate for….reasons.
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27798823 - 05/30/22 09:29 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said:
This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US.
Americans refuse to consider that embracing a big cultural "melting pot" is clearly a big failure. Most Americans refuse to accept this fact (or make irrelevant excuses for it) and refuse to even consider why a culture of forced diversity causes massive negative repercussions. Heavenly ideals and nature often are not on the same page.
Many liberal European countries don't embrace the idea of the melting pot and forced diversity to the extent the US does. Again, there are huge consequences for this, but most people refuse to even consider it. Because in America we practically worship the idea of the melting pot. It's like a religion here.
Yeah yeah - I must be a racist white supremacist cult member for considering such ideas.
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ballsalsa
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"forced diversity" 
Is that what you folks call it when you have to see someone who doesn't look like they're related to you on the street?
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koods
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
Kryptos said:
This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US.
Americans refuse to consider that embracing a big cultural "melting pot" is clearly a big failure. Most Americans refuse to accept this fact (or make irrelevant excuses for it) and refuse to even consider why a culture of forced diversity causes massive negative repercussions. Heavenly ideals and nature often are not on the same page.
Many liberal European countries don't embrace the idea of the melting pot and forced diversity to the extent the US does. Again, there are huge consequences for this, but most people refuse to even consider it. Because in America we practically worship the idea of the melting pot. It's like a religion here.
Yeah yeah - I must be a racist white supremacist cult member for considering such ideas.
Most other countries are a lot more diverse than the US. Have you ever been to Europe?
It’s the FUCKING GUNS. What the is wrong with you people? It’s this desperate search for any excuse but the actual reason. The denial is astounding.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet


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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Yeah yeah - I must be a racist white supremacist cult member for considering such ideas.
Nah you were like that long before you said this. You are just consistently intimately associated with white supremacist talking points.
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Psilimax
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Asante] 1
#27799489 - 05/30/22 07:55 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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After the shooting ,weapons manufacturers stocks skyrocketed ,and ,so many members of Congress both Dem.and Rep.received a big payout as stockholders. They made money from the shooting thru Americans panic purchasing of arms. We need this to change , our elected officials shouldn’t be able to profit from the companies whose policy they have jurisdiction over. After an event of unspeakable horror a weapons purchases is on many American mind , this is terrifying. A paradigm shift is in order ostracizing weapons culture and shunning violence in entertainment. Put shit in , shit comes out let’s reverse that trend and fill our lives with love I pray for the little ones and as a parent of two girls my heart goes out to all to who lost a loved one. I pray for you.
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koods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Psilimax]
#27799542 - 05/30/22 08:50 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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How many democrats are shareholders in gun companies? Lol
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: koods]
#27800150 - 05/31/22 11:08 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I probably have some investments in weapons manufacturers, or weapon manufacture-adjacent industries.
So, technically speaking, I should celebrate shootings. Every child shot represents a bullet sold, a profit made, and a stock price edging up ever so slightly, cementing my financial future.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27800156 - 05/31/22 11:12 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Every child killed is one less consumer to buy a gun, though. We need them shot but not killed, that way they will want to buy guns so as not to be shot again.
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27800160 - 05/31/22 11:14 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Shareholder capitalism doesn't give a fuck about next year, shareholder capitalism only cares about today.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27800165 - 05/31/22 11:18 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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So, putting your last two posts together, you should be a shareholder capitalist?
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27800302 - 05/31/22 12:40 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I mean, I am.
Much as I'd like to change society to be more equitable, I'm also realistic enough to understand that it will not happen in my lifetime, and that I need to plan to survive within a society dictated by shareholder capitalism.
Unrelated: last night's mass shooting happened at the intersection of America and South st, which is just perfectly placed.
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27802067 - 06/01/22 10:16 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/01/opinion/school-shootings-gun-reform.html
Quote:
Ross Douthat said:
To fully understand a problem like terrorism, you need to accept complexity, a sprawl of general factors — personal, historical, cultural — converging in a specific movement or a single actor. The kind of mass-murdering, effectively suicidal terrorism that has taken hold in America in the 23 years since Columbine is no different, even if it doesn’t wave a flag or make political demands.
The cascade of mimetic violence, the despairing anti-politics, the horribly vulnerable targets, the young men willingly becoming monsters — so much is implicated here: our media ecosystem and our education system, religion and technology and fatherhood and relations between the sexes, a tangle of roots in poisoned soil.
But an important truth about policymaking (a conservative truth, in many contexts) is that you don’t have to fully understand a problem’s roots in order to do something about it. There’s no simple path to a future America where young men like the killer in Uvalde, Texas — may his name be blotted out — no longer seek apotheosis through mass murder. But as long as we live in this America, I want the next teenager with an obvious set of warning flags (severe familial disorder, self-harm, violent online threats) to find it much harder to turn 18 and immediately acquire a high-powered weapon.
The specificity of the problem is important. I am not interested in the liberal desire to fold the problem of Uvalde-style mass shootings, of nihilistic terrorism with a misogynist or racist edge, into a larger problem called “gun violence.” America does indeed have a lot of gun violence, and we have had more of it in the past few years, but that violence is first and foremost a crime problem — one worsened by the easy availability of handguns but also by other novel factors, including the school closures and the police retreat that blue-state liberalism has recently encouraged.
Better enforcement of gun laws has its place in any response to the current homicide spike. But the liberals pining for sweeping new federal gun restrictions seem to be imagining either toothless laws that don’t affect anyone except the scrupulously law-abiding or some version of Michael Bloomberg’s aggressive-policing regime imposed all over the country, when they themselves decided that Bloombergism was authoritarian and racist.
In either case, the liberal anti-gun impulse often tends toward culture-war posturing, not an actual strategy for bringing homicide rates back down or preventing the kind of “school shootings” that are just general lawlessness spilling over onto school property.
At the same time, I also have no interest in the apparent conservative desire — or least the Ted Cruzian desire — to turn America’s schools into a zone of overpolicing, duck-and-cover fearfulness and military-level vigilance. Yes, there are schools in high-crime areas that need a police presence and there are school buildings well suited to have a single, secured entrance. But beyond these basics, the potential ubiquity of armed security and active-shooter drills is its own sacrifice of liberty, and even if the right to a demilitarized childhood isn’t enumerated in the Constitution, it should be treasured and preserved.
Conservatives and libertarians should be especially aware of this, given that they have spent two years arguing, reasonably, that the infliction of Covid security theater on children does more harm than good. If that logic applies to the low risk to children from the virus, it surely applies to the low risk of school terrorism as well. And Covid theater, at least, did not risk spreading the virus further, whereas I strongly suspect that a constant childhood drumbeat about the risks of school massacres contributes to the dark romance of the deed — especially among those unhappy kids for whom K-12 education feels like a prison anyway, with or without metal detectors.
So don’t give me a fanciful general war on guns or a general “hardening” of elementary schools. Give me policies, the simpler the better, that would stand between some meaningful percentage of mass shooters and their arsenals.
We have a decent sense of what those policies might be. The people drawn to this kind of terrorism are overwhelmingly of a type — young, troubled, socially awkward men. They are not necessarily gun experts, prepared to retrofit any weapon they acquire for maximal lethality, nor are they necessarily experts at navigating black markets to acquire weapons they can’t get legally. And they often expose their instability and intentions in advance.
Yes, some will overcome all obstacles or strike without warning. But many others, including those like the Uvalde shooter, seem potentially deterrable at the point of weapons acquisition. As the University of Alabama criminologist Adam Lankford put it, in a recent interview with The Dispatch, “If you make buying a firearm more difficult for people who find it difficult to do anything socially, that makes a difference.”
Those difference-making difficulties could be imposed via restrictions that target age and weapon type at once. Or they could be imposed through laws encouraging pre-emptive action by parties who might see the threat coming in advance. Age requirements for the purchase of AR-15s and other semiautomatic rifles fall into the first category; red-flag laws, which enable interventions that temporarily strip dangerous-seeming people of their guns, are the best example of the second approach.
I’m open to both options, but my current policy preference is slightly different. I worry that red-flag laws demand too much of bystanders and family members, while offering too little in cases where the potential shooter has cut himself off from normal contact. I’m not sure an age limit of 21 covers enough of the young male danger zone, and I also understand the objections of gun rights advocates to a system that demands that a 20-year-old enroll himself for potential military service but refuses him adult rights of self-defense.
So I would like to see experiments with age-based impediments rather than full restrictions — allowing would-be gun purchasers 25 and under the same rights of ownership as 40- or 60-year-olds, but with more substantial screenings before a purchase. Not just a criminal-background check, in other words, but some kind of basic social or psychological screening, combining a mental-health check, a social-media audit and testimonials from two competent adults — all subject to the same appeals process as a well-designed red-flag law.
This is an alteration and refinement of an earlier suggestion I floated following the Parkland shooting, which would have staggered the age at which various guns become available for legal purchase. Of course it generates its own set of objections, practical and constitutional; every potential gun regulation does. And if you fear our government enough, there will always be a reason to imagine that to yield anything is to yield everything — that today’s screening for early-20-something gun owners will become tomorrow’s tacit ban on conservatives buying guns, to pick the most obvious possible response.
But that’s a counsel of futility for responding to almost any threat, as long as our politics are polarized and trust in government stays low. And I’m not interested in futility, any more than I’m interested in the forms of right-wing overreaction or left-wing fantasy politics criticized above.
There’s a future where America’s gun-ownership rate is as high as ever, where our schools still look like schools rather than airport security lines and where 18-year-olds under a demoniac shadow face meaningful obstacles to arming themselves for terrorism. Let’s try living there, and see what happens next.
I obviously have some thoughts. It's an interesting take. Of course, my thoughts are also biased due to previous experience with this particular opinion columnist. I don't wanna inject that into your interpretation too much. I will say that it does sound like a decent plan. It's a bit analogous to driving: it's a lot easier to get a new license at 22 than it is at 16.
I do particularly like this line, though: “If you make buying a firearm more difficult for people who find it difficult to do anything socially, that makes a difference.” -Adam Lankfort
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Psilynut2
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27802375 - 06/02/22 07:40 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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That's how I feel , buying a firearm in California is an excruciating process . I don't think I will ever want another gun bad enough to go through that again .
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Psilynut2]
#27802394 - 06/02/22 08:07 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Excruciating? It takes about an hour plus a 10 day waiting period.
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Psilimax
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27803282 - 06/02/22 08:20 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Instead of Americans feeling threatened that they’re going to be disarmed Because we know that’s never gonna happen let’s work for a change in thinking and feeling ;a paradigm shift towards an attitude of ostracizing and shunning violence and violent actions in society in It’s many manifestations. There’s much work afoot. I was that kid who got bullied by the whole class and while I absolutely don’t condone this horrible acts of violence I can see how repeated miss treatment leads people to a breaking point from such things. I remember the first time here in Colorado when the Columbine shooting happened the big take from that is we all need to be nicer to each other , those boys who became gunmen were bullied heavily throughout their lives. In Granby Colorado in the 90s the Killdozer happend because that guy got mistreated by a band of local businessmen and regulators that teamed up against him. There’s a movie about it called ”Treads” . I pray to see swords turned into plows and peace among nations. I pray for us all
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Psilimax]
#27803292 - 06/02/22 08:30 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Common misconception. The columbine shooters weren't bullied nor were they outcasts.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27803295 - 06/02/22 08:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Excruciating? It takes about an hour plus a 10 day waiting period.
Ya theoretically it should , maybe if your the only customer . When everyone's purchase takes an hr yours can take 3 . And then and hr and half to pick it up 10 days later . .
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Psilynut2
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Psilimax]
#27803339 - 06/02/22 09:05 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
ork afoot. I was that kid who got bullied by the whole class and while I absolutely don’t condone this horrible acts of violence I can see how repeated miss treatment leads people to a breaking point from such things.
The Uvalde shooter was a bully himself according to his classmates . The shooter that killed people in the hospital campus today was mad about his botched back surgery or something .
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koods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27803363 - 06/02/22 09:15 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Excruciating? It takes about an hour plus a 10 day waiting period.
By the time you’re done you’ve probably lost the motivation to kill anyone
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: koods]
#27803368 - 06/02/22 09:20 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Kids are bullied around the world. As bad as people think it is here, places like Japan and Korea are much worse and they have homicide rates a fraction of what it is here.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: koods] 1
#27804043 - 06/03/22 11:13 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Not to mention the gays and blacks and nerds and trans people who are by all accounts the most bullied and yet never shoot up their school.
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koods
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It’s the ones who believe they are entitled to something, yet get treated like everyone else
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: koods]
#27804076 - 06/03/22 11:30 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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shivas.wisdom
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Almost as if the constant stream of excuses, from Marilyn Manson to mental illness, are just scapegoats to preserve the mechanisms that create and preserve societal inequalities - like capitalism, white supremacy, and patriarchy.
We Are All Very Anxious - - - Arm The Mentally Ill
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Enlil
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I'm all for replacing capitalism as soon as something better is invented
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27804097 - 06/03/22 11:44 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Define 'better'.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27804126 - 06/03/22 12:09 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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We could try to mitigate the damage in the meantime rather than run headlong into a late-stage capitalism dystopia.
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Enlil
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: Define 'better'.
More effective at promoting technological progress while maintaining social stability.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
#27804146 - 06/03/22 12:18 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: We could try to mitigate the damage in the meantime rather than run headlong into a late-stage capitalism dystopia.
Isn't that what we've been doing for 40 years?
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ballsalsa
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil] 1
#27804181 - 06/03/22 12:41 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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lol, no.
Maybe the 40 before that
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
#27804435 - 06/03/22 04:26 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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DeSantis vetoed funding for the Rays after they expressed concern about the shootings.
Also, this one really opened the floodgates, didn't it? We've had like 20 shootings since then.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27804438 - 06/03/22 04:29 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah. That happens. When the media makes a huge deal about it, it makes the concept more attractive to the wackos
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27804543 - 06/03/22 05:41 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Not to nearly the same extent.
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Enlil
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27804558 - 06/03/22 05:47 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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not to nearly the same extent as what?
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
#27804889 - 06/03/22 08:58 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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as normal.
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RJ Tubs 202



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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Almost as if the constant stream of excuses, from Marilyn Manson to mental illness, are just scapegoats to preserve the mechanisms that create and preserve societal inequalities - like capitalism, white supremacy, and patriarchy.
Of the multitude of factors that contribute to human misery, those three wouldn't make my top 10 list.
Notice we never talk about misery. Just blame violent behavior on mental illness & social media. How lame
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Almost as if the constant stream of excuses, from Marilyn Manson to mental illness, are just scapegoats to preserve the mechanisms that create and preserve societal inequalities - like capitalism, white supremacy, and patriarchy.
Of the multitude of factors that contribute to human misery, those three wouldn't make my top 10 list.
Notice we never talk about misery. Just blame violent behavior on mental illness & social media. How lame
Let’s hear your top 10
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Kryptos
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Guy open carrying AR-15 robbed at gun point, hands over AR-15
Then gets another gun, starts a shootout which injures two bystanders.
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Brian Jones
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27807906 - 06/06/22 06:00 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Ten mass shootings in the last three days.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Psilynut2
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I feel like we're living through what I imagined the Wild West was like as a little kid .
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ballsalsa
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Psilynut2]
#27808090 - 06/06/22 08:58 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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it isn't comparable. We aren't even anywhere near the homicide rate in the Wild West when you actually were a little kid. (Roughly half the 1991 rate, currently)
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Kryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
#27808236 - 06/06/22 11:09 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I wonder if anyone's done a distribution of different types of murder over time, and correlated that to other social factors.
Is there an increase in random violence or is it just more prominent now? Because as Psilynut alluded to, different types of murder feel different. Like, if a guy catches his wife cheating and shoots her, that feels different from a guy walking into a school and shooting random kids.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27808741 - 06/06/22 07:02 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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It’s the phenomenon of having access to the reality of all these events in real time, thanks to the internet and social media.
Things only seem so dire because we’re finally getting a glimpse into the horrors of reality.
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Kryptos
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Well, no, the number of mass shootings is steadily increasing. It used to be one every few days, not a few every day.
I mean comparing various forms of crime to various social factors like government stability, wealth inequality, social stability, etc.
I mean, the proportions gotta change, right? The motivations behind the shootings. I wonder how those correlate?
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ballsalsa
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27808897 - 06/06/22 08:52 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Mass shootings didn't exist in 1991 but if they did most of them would have been categorized as "gang violence" back then
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
#27808904 - 06/06/22 08:55 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I think mass shootings are the only instance of violence to be increasing, but I’m not sure how you quantify those social factors.
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The Blind Ass
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Viewing these “mass shootings” akin to the way one looks at an individual cell doing whatever the equivalent would be in a body organized & composed of many cells produces valuable imagery. And that it’s spreading - what does that mean exactly?
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christopera
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Gang violence is fairly different than what we are seeing today. These mass shootings are generally individuals with no motivation to take money or operating space. They solely want to kill, maybe in the name of some manifesto or something similar, but it is very different than motives gangs have. That's why people are afraid of them, there is no rhyme or reason.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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ballsalsa
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That simply isn't the case, even though we tend to think of mass shootings in this way.
https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/mass-shootings.html
Quote:
Another definitional disagreement is whether to include multiple-victim shooting incidents that occur in connection with some other crime or domestic dispute. Because mass shootings that stem from domestic and gang violence are contextually distinct from high-fatality indiscriminate killings in public venues, some analysts have argued that they should be treated separately. In their analyses of “mass public shootings,” Lott and Landes (2000) excluded any felony-related shooting, and Duwe, Kovandzic, and Moody (2002) excluded incidents where “both the victims and offender(s) were involved in unlawful activities, such as organized crime, gang activity, and drug deals” (p. 276). Similarly, other researchers (e.g., Gius, 2015c; Luca, Malhotra, and Poliquin, 2020) have restricted analyses to events that occurred in a relatively public area and in which victims appeared to have been selected randomly. However, others have claimed that this narrow definition ignores a substantial proportion of gun-related violence from family- or felony-related murder (Fox and Levin, 2015). Furthermore, determinants of whether victims were selected indiscriminately or whether the incidents were gang- or crime-related are, to some degree, subjective. Accurate information about the shooter’s motivations or connection to gangs may not have been included in police or news reports of the incidents. In contrast, the Mass Shooting Tracker and the Gun Violence Archive count as mass shootings all incidents that meet their designated casualty threshold, regardless of the circumstances that led to the event or the motivation of the shooter.
These definitions make a substantial difference in which incidents are counted.[3] As noted earlier, depending on which data source is used, there were between six and 503 mass shootings in the United States in 2019 (see Table 1)
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christopera
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
#27809332 - 06/07/22 06:29 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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When you join a gang and are told to protect your sales region it is a lot different than randomly marching into a school to shoot up children. With the gang it is pretty obvious you are getting into what could be a violent situation. When you are a lone ranger shooting people from a hotel room or walking into a school, the motivations are clearly a lot different. We know a lot of gun violence is criminal on criminal. What people are afraid of currently is criminal on innocents, generally with no clear end goal and often with a
Lately, everybody has been sticking to the 4 people rule pretty well as far as the mass shooting classification.
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ballsalsa
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Right, and 4 people including the shooter (or not) includes tons of non-random shootings in the stats (and headlines). The lone shooter attacking a school or nightclub is vastly in the minority to the kind of shootings we're all more comfortable with but the headlines just say "another mass shooting" because fear sells papers.
I'm not trying to say that school shootings or nightclub shootings are acceptable or good. I'm just demonstrating that they are a lot less common than one might think given the constant daily mass shooting headlines.
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christopera
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
#27809354 - 06/07/22 07:10 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Most mass shootings never make the news, at least not nationally.
https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/mass-shooting
There were 7 Saturday and 5 Sunday. I heard of one.
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ballsalsa
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Very first "mass shooting" on that list has the following headline
Quote:
Long-standing feud' erupted into a deadly shooting in downtown, Grand Rapids Police Chief says
https://www.wzzm13.com/article/news/one-killed-three-injured-in-grand-rapids-shooting/69-6281aef1-fa0c-4aae-9e93-c4be95e99e5a
Does that sound like the kind of mass shooting you're describing with a lone gunman targeting random people or does it conveniently reiterate my point?
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christopera
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
#27809359 - 06/07/22 07:21 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I never claimed that all mass shootings were of that nature, I said "What people are afraid of currently is criminal on innocents (violence), generally with no clear end goal"
I left that sentence hanging, I got a phone call around then and I guess I just never finished it. The point stands.
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ballsalsa
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I mean, sure, that's what people are afraid of, I didn't dispute that. That said, those events make up a tiny number of mass shootings, which was my point. I'm glad we're in agreement. It seems clear that language breeds fear and fear sells papers in the case of "mass shootings" just like it did back when these events were called "gang violence" or how sensational headlines about car jackings had little old ladies locking their doors on the drive to the grocery store back in the day.
Do you still believe that
Quote:
christopera said: ...These mass shootings are generally individuals with no motivation to take money or operating space. They solely want to kill, maybe in the name of some manifesto or something similar...
Given what we just discussed?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
#27809378 - 06/07/22 07:33 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah I mean they’re selling white PMCs in the Bay Area on fears of a crime wave to oust progressive DA Chesa Boudin, all because some Walgreens stores have closed down their businesses in the area (for reasons unrelated to theft).
Fear sells. And the funny thing is the right would readily accept that this is the case (using mass shootings as an excuse to pump up fear) but they will tell you the reasoning is to justify gun control, and I don’t think that’s the point of it at all.
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christopera
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Everybody is locking their doors on the way to the grocery store. Cars do that automatically now.
That said, out of 12 mass shootings I heard of 1. They (msm) aren't really pushing the narrative that hard. It's just hard to ignore 20 dead kids in a school. Again, a gang is obviously massively different than 20 dead school kids. That isn't to say that shooting up your rivals in a foreign city makes any sense or isn't gang like.
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The Ecstatic
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I wonder how much of the “gang violence” stuff still permeates local news. When I was younger that’s what was always on the local channels; burglaries on the rise! A shooting in “that” side of town, etc.
It’s probably more true than ever, considering the age demo for evening local news is probably like 87 years old at this point.
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ballsalsa
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I can't control what you've heard of or not but here are some of yesterday's headlines you may have missed:
Quote:
From graduation parties to a mall, 13 mass shootings over the weekend leave more than a dozen dead and over 70 injured
(CNN)
Quote:
Mass shootings across the U.S. leave dozens killed or wounded this weekend
(NPR)
Quote:
At least 12 dead in another weekend of mass shootings across America
(NBC)
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ballsalsa
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gang violence, car jackings and "the crack cocaine epidemic" are the siren songs of our youth.
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christopera
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I wonder how much of the “gang violence” stuff still permeates local news. When I was younger that’s what was always on the local channels; burglaries on the rise! A shooting in “that” side of town, etc.
It’s probably more true than ever, considering the age demo for evening local news is probably like 87 years old at this point.
If my mother calls me one more time to ask if I got shot, meanwhile the shooting was 6 miles away, I might shoot her.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#27809428 - 06/07/22 08:17 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: gang violence, car jackings and "the crack cocaine epidemic" are the siren songs of our youth.
I still remember standing in my kitchen watching the news unfold when Columbine happened. The atmosphere was not very different from how it was on 9/11; utter shock and bewilderment. Now it’s just normal stuff and the extent to which anyone in power actually cares is only to further their own political interests. Republicans: the Dems want to take your guns vote for us! Democrats: the GOP wants your babies to die vote for us! It rings hollow because everyone implicitly understands that nothing will change regardless of the party in power. It’s just another thing for us to feel angry and hopeless about so we turn to apathy.
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
christopera said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I wonder how much of the “gang violence” stuff still permeates local news. When I was younger that’s what was always on the local channels; burglaries on the rise! A shooting in “that” side of town, etc.
It’s probably more true than ever, considering the age demo for evening local news is probably like 87 years old at this point.
If my mother calls me one more time to ask if I got shot, meanwhile the shooting was 6 miles away, I might shoot her.

My girl and I took a trip to New Orleans a while back, 2019 I think, and my mom sent me an article from 2016 about carjackings on the rise near the Quarter, and to be careful.
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Kryptos
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Quote:
christopera said: These mass shootings are generally individuals with no motivation to take money or operating space. They solely want to kill,
I disagree, I think mass shootings are suicides with extra steps. Killing seems like a distant second as far as motivations go. Or a means to publicize your suicide, because nobody cares about the guy that shoots themselves on some dusty back road and is found three months later.
The point on gang violence ties into the social factors I was talking about earlier -- to what extent should gang violence be separate from a mass shooting? What about gang violence that has an implicit disregard for civilian casualties, like how you hear about a cartel machine gunning an entire nightclub in Mexico and killing dozens to take out one rival?
Of course, the definition of four dead is also...interesting, because what if you have a mass shooter that happens to be an incompetent marksman and fails to kill anyone?
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