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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #27795634 - 05/27/22 07:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Ya  probably .
    Someone just called my wife and pretended to be one of our neighbors using her first name saying they want to talk about school safety in light of this incident. Then they  asked her to go to a website to learn more and it was fucking Jehovas Witnesses .
    I honestly thought knocking in my door was the stupidest thing they could do .


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #27795679 - 05/27/22 07:51 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

Serious question here: does your consistent “the problem is there’s no real solution” take on every topic here make it easier to get through the day, or is it a moderation tactic? Do you really believe it?



It's pretty easy to get through the day anyway, so I don't think that really plays into it. 

There simply are problems that are innate in humans.  Murder is certainly one of those problems.  If you believe the Bible, the first human ever born killed the second human ever born.  By all accounts, this pattern has persisted ever since. I realize that it's fun to pretend that we can sit here on an internet forum and solve the longstanding human problems, but every generation has pondered these same problems without any success. 

My question to you is: do you really believe there is a solution?




Thanks for the response.

If the problem is humans being violent then no I don’t think there’s a solution. But we can certainly curb the problem without making unacceptable restrictions on life itself.

I’m not trying to flame or anything, it just hit me that you always seem to take the middle ground in these types of debates and tend to fall on the “it’s a fact of life” conclusion. I can’t think of a time you’ve ever suggested an approach to any problem that is fundamentally different than what has been recently attempted. Is there a problem you think could be substantially mitigated by an approach that’s outside mainstream thought? Doesn’t necessarily have to be a political issue I’m just curious.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Another shooting [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27795713 - 05/27/22 08:13 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

In fairness, the reason we have these problems is because we haven't solved them.  I realize that it's not a great feeling to know that billions of people can't figure this shit out after thousands of years of civilization, but that's the reality. I've noticed that you tend to fallback on some belief that solutions are intentionally being hidden or avoided because of corruption, greed, power struggle, etc. I used to think like that, too. After 30 years of raging against the machine, I've come to realize that the machine, for the most part, was built to make the best of shitty human nature and reduce the harm we do to ourselves.

I know that's not a satisfying answer. I know you want to believe that if we just work at it, utopia is still feasible. Unfortunately,  people are every bit as fucked up as we act. The simple answer is that there is no simple answer. Every solution creates more problems.  Society is a bundle of compromises intended to minimize the damage we do to ourselves and others


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
    #27795786 - 05/27/22 08:53 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

The U.S. has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world. For 2 decades it dropped dramatically along with the rest of the developed world at approximately the same rate regardless of how strict the respective firearm restrictions became or didn't. In the U.S. the expiration of the assault rifle ban did nothing to slow the decline in homicides and only in the last couple years has there been an uptick in the rate.

Koods and I once argued this to death but I'm too lazy to search up the links right now


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27795859 - 05/27/22 10:09 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Amongst western fully developed democracies, the US homicide rate is a huge outlier. 2-5 times higher.

The ten year period when the assault weapons ban was in effect, the murder rate fell faster than any other time since the 1960s

Canada, France, the UK, Germany, pretty much all the European countries have a homicide rate between 1 and 2 per 100k. The US is around 7.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (05/27/22 10:12 PM)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Another shooting [Re: koods]
    #27795862 - 05/27/22 10:17 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I've demonstrated to you before that the ban can't tell the whole story at least in part because of the reasons I outlined above.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: Another shooting [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27795867 - 05/27/22 10:23 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

The mid nineties were a magical almost utopian moment in American history. The streets were paved with gold, Prozac was making everyone easy going, and I was getting laid constantly


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27795989 - 05/28/22 02:30 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Can you give an example of a society with significantly less violence?





Japan? Germany? The US is high on the list of violent countries.

Everybodies pet Switzerland comes to mind, as much guns as the US, homicide rate 0.002% instead of 4+%


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27796183 - 05/28/22 08:24 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
In fairness, the reason we have these problems is because we haven't solved them.  I realize that it's not a great feeling to know that billions of people can't figure this shit out after thousands of years of civilization, but that's the reality. I've noticed that you tend to fallback on some belief that solutions are intentionally being hidden or avoided because of corruption, greed, power struggle, etc. I used to think like that, too. After 30 years of raging against the machine, I've come to realize that the machine, for the most part, was built to make the best of shitty human nature and reduce the harm we do to ourselves.

I know that's not a satisfying answer. I know you want to believe that if we just work at it, utopia is still feasible. Unfortunately,  people are every bit as fucked up as we act. The simple answer is that there is no simple answer. Every solution creates more problems.  Society is a bundle of compromises intended to minimize the damage we do to ourselves and others




Except WE are the only ones that have this particular problem, the problem of a guy with a gun walking into _____ and killing ____ adults and ____ kids in _____.

This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US. So either other people have managed to figure out a solution, or people born within the US are genetically more shooty.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #27796200 - 05/28/22 08:43 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
In fairness, the reason we have these problems is because we haven't solved them.  I realize that it's not a great feeling to know that billions of people can't figure this shit out after thousands of years of civilization, but that's the reality. I've noticed that you tend to fallback on some belief that solutions are intentionally being hidden or avoided because of corruption, greed, power struggle, etc. I used to think like that, too. After 30 years of raging against the machine, I've come to realize that the machine, for the most part, was built to make the best of shitty human nature and reduce the harm we do to ourselves.

I know that's not a satisfying answer. I know you want to believe that if we just work at it, utopia is still feasible. Unfortunately,  people are every bit as fucked up as we act. The simple answer is that there is no simple answer. Every solution creates more problems.  Society is a bundle of compromises intended to minimize the damage we do to ourselves and others




I’m just saying there’s a pretty large chasm between where we are now, struggling to come to terms with the effects of the industrial revolution, and utopia. I think a lot of the frustration is that, in many cases, we aren’t even simply treading water, things are getting worse.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Another shooting [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27796276 - 05/28/22 09:58 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Of course things are getting worse.  They're going to continue to get worse.  Humans aren't going to evolve significantly.  That takes millions of years.  In contrast, our technology is growing exponentially.  It doesn't take a genius to figure out that technology has surpassed our ability to responsibly use it.  That problem is going to get larger and larger.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Asante]
    #27796279 - 05/28/22 09:59 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

those aren't real numbers.

If you think that the homicide rate in the U.S. is 4/100 you need to think harder.
That would add up to about 14 million homicides per year, my dude.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
    #27796280 - 05/28/22 09:59 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:

Except WE are the only ones that have this particular problem, the problem of a guy with a gun walking into _____ and killing ____ adults and ____ kids in _____.

This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US. So either other people have managed to figure out a solution, or people born within the US are genetically more shooty.



It's not universal YET.  It will be.  America is the leader of technology and excess.  We're going to demonstrate most of these types of problems first.  Eventually, the world will follow.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #27796309 - 05/28/22 10:35 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:

Except WE are the only ones that have this particular problem, the problem of a guy with a gun walking into _____ and killing ____ adults and ____ kids in _____.

This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US. So either other people have managed to figure out a solution, or people born within the US are genetically more shooty.



It's not universal YET.  It will be.  America is the leader of technology and excess.  We're going to demonstrate most of these types of problems first.  Eventually, the world will follow.




I think we're behind the curve. See, in places where explosives are pretty easy to come by, suicide bombings are pretty common. In places where guns are relatively easy to come by, suicide shootings are pretty common. In places where knives are easy to come by, stabbings are pretty common.

If we were at the forefront, we'd be talking about a guy walking into a school and detonating a 50 pound vest. Because explosives are an objective upgrade over guns, especially in buildings.

But we're not talking about that, because we're at the forefront of specifically gun violence. Something tells me that some crazy religious militia nutters in the middle east aren't going to downgrade, and that some crazy religious militia nutters in the EU aren't going to upgrade. And the crazy religious militia nutters in the US will keep their guns.

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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
    #27796310 - 05/28/22 10:36 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Guns are going to become more easy to come by everywhere on the planet.  Get used to the idea.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #27796316 - 05/28/22 10:45 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

That's a statement you're gonna have to back up with evidence.

Because Europe seems to be showing the exact opposite trend. After the bans put in place in the 90s, guns became a lot harder to come by, and gun-related deaths went down across the board. Some places, all deaths went down across the board.

Guns will only become easier to get in places like the US, where somehow, the ~7% of US adults who oppose any sort of background checks or mental health screenings for gun owners seem to have more votes than the other 93%.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #27796318 - 05/28/22 10:47 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:

Except WE are the only ones that have this particular problem, the problem of a guy with a gun walking into _____ and killing ____ adults and ____ kids in _____.

This isn't a universal problem. This is a problem that happens entirely within the US. So either other people have managed to figure out a solution, or people born within the US are genetically more shooty.



It's not universal YET.  It will be.  America is the leader of technology and excess.  We're going to demonstrate most of these types of problems first.  Eventually, the world will follow.




As a materialist I want to agree with this, but I think it’s mostly social and cultural factors that explains our mass shooter obsession.


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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
    #27796321 - 05/28/22 10:48 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

You want me to present evidence of a future prediction?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Another shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #27796326 - 05/28/22 10:57 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You want me to present evidence of a future prediction?




Yes, because your future prediction, that of the future ubiquity of guns, carries a certain implication of policy, that of nothing can be done. It also carries a certain aspect of self-fulfilling prophecy. It's the global warming argument all over again.

It also sounds eerily like the current GOP line, which is...well, at this point frustratingly nonsensical. They're not even blaming lack of armed response, or mental health anymore. They're blaming the fact that there are too many doors. The incoherence is the point, it's designed to frustrate normal people into giving up. Because that's how they win. That's how everybody in Germany became a Nazi, they got tired of fighting the Nazis and wanted to just live their lives without being harassed. It's how gangs recruit people--we jump you, you join us, or we jump you again tomorrow.

So, I offer you a counter-prediction. Gun violence and the presence of guns will decrease in the developed world, with the exception of the US, where gun violence will rapidly increase. I expect gun violence will also increase modestly in Russia, Ukraine, and Yemen, as well as a few other active battlefields that I don't know off the top of my head, but will decrease soon after as guns leave the local circulation.

I think 100k deaths by shooting per year is not outside of the realm of possibility for the US in my lifetime.

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Re: Another shooting [Re: Kryptos]
    #27796327 - 05/28/22 11:02 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Gun violence has not exactly been rapidly climbing in America, but who knows...your crystal ball may be right.  Nonetheless, as time goes on, people around the world will be more easily able to create guns in their homes.  They will become more available.  That's unavoidable, and no amount of policy or law is going to change that.


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