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OfflineDissociativeID
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Registered: 05/04/22
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Loc: Portland, Oregon
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Can poor conditions lead to low potency?
    #27785743 - 05/20/22 01:17 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Hi there!

I'm brand spanking new to growing and despite multiple rookie mistakes, I plucked my first flush a couple of days ago. WOOT! WOOT!



So, good for me and all, but the potency of this first batch was extremely low. I'm pretty much a lightweight when it comes to psychedelics, but I ate the entire handful above, plus, and I barely noticed any effects (if at all). I definitely had deep purple bruising, so I thought they'd be pretty strong, but nope. 

Primary rookie moves included: Substrate too dry, problems with FAE, water dripping down onto caps, plus, I messed with them too much due to impatience, excitement, obsession, etc.

My question is this: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? I tried to do a search of previous posts, but I didn't come up with anything. The strain I used was either B+ or Golden Teacher (I got them mixed up, so I'm not sure which tub was which, lol)

Here's a picture of the first flush after I plucked the handful above:


Any help you can offer (or links that address conditions/potency) would be great. Thanks so much for tolerating us noobies. I am very grateful this message board exists!


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InvisibleReverendMyc
succinct is not my forte

Registered: 03/29/19
Posts: 2,588
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: DissociativeID]
    #27785842 - 05/20/22 02:23 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

First off, congrats on a pretty good looking first flush.

Generally, genetics determine potency and I am assuming that you started from multi-spore, so it really is a crap shoot. Usually, you will get some decent potency, though.

They do lose potency after harvest depending on how they are treated. Did you eat them fresh after harvest? Or how long after? How did you prepare them? If you dried them, what method?

Also, what was the weight that you ate? It takes about 10 times the weight of fresh mushrooms to get the same effect as the amount of dried mushrooms (because they are about 90% water).

Finally, and this is least important, Golden Teacher is generally not the strongest potency wise ime. I still love them, but they can be a bit less potent than other varieties. Not to the point of no potency at all, just like take 10 to 20% off there , Squirly Dan.


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OfflineDissociativeID
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Registered: 05/04/22
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #27785932 - 05/20/22 03:31 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I dried most of them in my dehydrator and ate them right away (of course!). It was set at 165 degrees for about 5 hours.

I did try eating some of them fresh at first and I think that had a stronger effect.


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InvisibleE_Dubbya
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Registered: 05/14/21
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: DissociativeID]
    #27785937 - 05/20/22 03:35 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

You should be drying for 24 hours at 165 fyi


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OfflineDissociativeID
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: DissociativeID]
    #27785946 - 05/20/22 03:42 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

In reading the similar threads, it sounds like I had the temp too high when dehydrating. Apparently, it shouldn't be over 95 degrees?


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OfflineDissociativeID
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Registered: 05/04/22
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: E_Dubbya]
    #27785948 - 05/20/22 03:43 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Really? They were cracker dry at 5 hours.


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OfflineScrewup
Googles your dumb questions
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Registered: 01/27/22
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: DissociativeID]
    #27785951 - 05/20/22 03:51 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Golden rule people around here push is 24 hours…they’ve got a lot more experience than me. Most I’ve dried was 8 hours. I usually do six hours @ 160 in an oven. Cracker dry by then. I weigh em and then do another hour which has come out to the exact same weight as they went in 🤷♂️. My shrooms all lose 94.5%-95% of their weight by that point.

What guy below me said as well. My shits ain’t monster chonkers and 100g like all the big boys here.

Edited by Screwup (05/20/22 03:54 PM)

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InvisibleE_Dubbya
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: DissociativeID]
    #27785953 - 05/20/22 03:52 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

165 °f, 24 hours. If they are extremely thin shrooms, you can get away with a little less.

No way they were fully dry at 5 hours.

That might explain why you had a weaker experience.


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OfflineJXAllen
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: DissociativeID] * 1
    #27785956 - 05/20/22 03:57 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Most of the threads I've read on drying say 165F for 24 hours. If you're reading 95, it's probably 95C or 205F. You won't start significantly degrading psilocybin below 200F. Moisture is a bigger threat than the heat from a standard dehydrator. You want to make sure they're completely dry. They can feel cracker dry after just 6 hours, but throw them in a jar and wait another 6 hours and they'll usually feel soft again as moisture inside the fruit comes out.


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OfflineDissociativeID
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: JXAllen]
    #27786032 - 05/20/22 05:22 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Here are the threads I looked at:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/1694674
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6481772#6481772
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/891128

The consensus from these posts all are saying pretty much the same thing: not higher than 95F with a preferred recommendation of "fan drying."

They're old, so maybe there's newer research or something?


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OfflineJXAllen
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: DissociativeID]
    #27786039 - 05/20/22 05:27 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Those threads are nearly 20 years old.... Newer research has replaced that old information.


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OfflineDissociativeID
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: JXAllen]
    #27786060 - 05/20/22 05:59 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I've been reading newer posts and it seems that this is controversial topic in the shroom community. Here are a couple more recent posts:

From a reddit thread with research (a small, unpublished study): https://www.reddit.com/r/shrooms/comments/b90vci/temp_vs_degredation_analysis_as_promised/
The chart basically shows lower potency starting at 120F (or 50c) but it's minimal until it goes over 300F. This was only based on 30 minutes of exposure, though. The comments show what a controversial topic this is.

Q&A with the author of the mushroom bible:
https://www.reddit.com/r/shrooms/comments/hoqphs/ama_we_wrote_the_psilocybin_mushroom_bible_2016/
Quote: "The subject of potency degradation with the introduction of heat is an incredibly contentious subject and one that's had little actual research on it; the advice to stay away from heat is largely anecdotal—that's not to say that it's wrong, but it is far from a proven fact. Our own experiences (we have made a LOT of shroom tea over the years, and have even baked it into brownies and things) have convinced us that any potency degradation with short heating is minimal, and even with longer baking times it doesn't seem to affect it too badly, if at all. However we are aware that old habits die hard so in the cookbook we've included recipes that need no heating and a small amount of heating, so everyone can find something they're comfortable with."

Very interesting.


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OfflineDissociativeID
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Registered: 05/04/22
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Loc: Portland, Oregon
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: DissociativeID]
    #27786069 - 05/20/22 06:08 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Here's another thread with people going back and forth about it. This one starts in 2005 and ends in 2020. Lol.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5168021/fpart/4/vc/1

Sounds like the latest consensus is that heat doesn't affect potency, but I still can't find any real research. If you guys know of any, post a link. Otherwise, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing.

Thanks for your help!


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Invisible0001001
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Registered: 02/04/21
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: DissociativeID] * 2
    #27786101 - 05/20/22 06:45 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Don't source your information from Reddit.

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InvisibleMTZ
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: 0001001]
    #27786169 - 05/20/22 08:21 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

Bingo. That always explains it. And there's no controversy over properly drying fruits. Pretty standard to dry them for 24hrs with the heat cranked. I mean amongst people that actually cultivate and know what they're talking about around here anyway. 🤷


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OfflineTimestop413
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: MTZ]
    #27786174 - 05/20/22 08:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I have had similar concerns as you in regards to "why arent these potent" and I lean towards it being mostly genetics.  I have eaten fresh as well as dry and have dried at a variety of temperatures,  the most likely conclusion for me is genetic.  I see you said you are usually a lightweight, I've also wondered if its different from person. If you have friends who will take them, give them out to people to get additional opinions.

To work towards good potency, best thing I can think of is to work on agar.  Clone a variety of fruits from a tub, sample them yourself or give to people, and continue to grow the clones that are potent.

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OfflineTheTimelessDon
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Registered: 03/19/22
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: Timestop413]
    #27786232 - 05/20/22 09:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I will just add - when I was questioning potency, the topic of SSRI's and anti depressants came up...and after much more research, I believe that is my problem so far...  I take a couple things, but narrowing it to Paroxetine (Paxil) is the most likely variable for me at the moment.  Multiple failed attempts with almost zero to none effect of psilocybin so far.

I use agar, good technique, and have some beautifully healthy harvests so far.  Every time more impressive than the last... So I'm certain conditions aren't my potency issue. 

:mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2:  I just had a harvest a few hours ago and been off Paxil for about 2 weeks now.  I don't know if it's been long enough, I don't know if it's the problem, I don't know if it's anything genetic, I don't know if there are other issues or a different medicine....and I don't know if there is a speck of psilocybin in anything I've grown...lololol  But once I narrow down what it was for me, I'll consider myself victorious.

But yeah... If you are on anything that is messing with your brain right now, that maybe you weren't on in the past when life was good.... Something to consider.

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OfflineSingularFusion
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: TheTimelessDon] * 1
    #27786367 - 05/21/22 12:56 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

I just want to chime in and say there is zero percent controversy on the topic of drying where experienced culters are concerned OP

We do it a certain way for a reason. Reddit is a joke and there is also a reason some studies go unpublished. 24 hours is standard based on the wealth of experience and knowledge that has been collected here. Anyone recommending less time/heat, I would be wary of their advice. Your five hour shrooms will be bendy in the bag in a few days more than likely, potency will heavily degrade with the combination of oxygen and water

all the best

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Offlinehazyhorse
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: SingularFusion]
    #27786450 - 05/21/22 02:56 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

nef has it right. if drying at max temps for 24 degrades anything i must be growing the most potent mushrooms ever lol. there was a thread by mushboy where he dried fruits for 3 different times, i forget the exact times but it was like 6hrs, 12 & then 24. all were cracker dry day of but after a week only the 24 hour one still was. not saying it always takes 24, obviously a thin ass mushroom will dry faster than a 100g PE fruit, but there’s no real reason not to dry 24. i don’t think people considered trusted cultivators or people who clearly grow & trip with great success would do it if their potency was shit after a 24 hour run in the dehydrator. what we definitively know kills potency is improper drying & storage & exposure to oxygen. so even if some small small amount is lost in drying, you can’t exactly avoid it through any method & you can’t keep fresh fruits long term, so might as well get it done as fast & efficiently as possible. heat doesn’t degrade potency to any degree worth splitting hairs over, that’s for sure


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OfflineScrewup
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Re: Can poor conditions lead to low potency? [Re: hazyhorse]
    #27786478 - 05/21/22 03:48 AM (2 years, 7 months ago)

When we're talking that shrooms have become wet/bendy again did he ever weigh them to see what kind of change was done at 6/12/24 hours? Just curious as if we're talking about some .01 or smaller amount of water being the culprit for all the mushrooms becoming wet/bendy again. I don't grow fucking chonkers like y'all and my 5-20 gram wet shrooms are still dry after two+ weeks of 6-8 hours @ 160 in my convection oven.

Nef also mentions a bag but wouldn't most dry shrooms absorb some moisture if not in an airtight jar/vacuum sealed even if they were dried for 24 hours? Just asking questions so don't molest the messenger :begger:

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