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lamorti
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Question about mycelium growth in monotub
#27783118 - 05/18/22 02:53 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is my first experience with a monotub and I have very limited experience in general with cultivating mushrooms. I have a monotub that has been colonizing for the past 10 days and I wanted to make sure the mycelium looks healthy as it doesn't look like many of the pictures/videos I see posted. I didn't want to open the tub so the pictures aren't the absolute best representation of the growth, but essentially the mycelium is clumping and growing into little mounds or balls, not sure how to best describe it, it's 3D rather than flat. In many of the videos/pictures that I have seen online, the mycelium seems to remain pretty flat throughout the substrate. Also, I am assuming the mycelium hasn't fully colonized since I still have these patches of manure mix still visible, is that accurate?
For a little extra detail:
- The mycelium is white I see no discoloration at all anywhere
- It seems to be hydrophobic I can see small circular droplets in some locations
- The grain spawn I used smelt very earthy and healthy
- I was as careful as possible to limit contamination when combining the grain spawn with the bulk substrate
I appreciate any help or insight, thanks.


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Bobbins
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783129 - 05/18/22 03:01 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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How much air are you letting in the tub at this stage? I wouldn't be afraid of opening it to take a photo.
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: Bobbins]
#27783139 - 05/18/22 03:07 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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also, you don’t have to worry about contamination when you spawn. it’s inherently a dirty process & no amount of cleaning your room or whatever is going to stop millions of contaminate spores from flying in. if your spawn is clean & manure is pasteurized properly you’re fine.
you’re right, it’s not fully colonized yet. you want the top to be all white. how did you inoculate your spawn? there’s a chance it was somewhat bacterial, even if it smelled fine. also, what’s the tub set up? you could probably stand to give it more FAE. you want FAE to happen passively, don’t add any fans to the room or fan it manually. fans dry out subs & fanning is useless
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783151 - 05/18/22 03:15 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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No FAE yet. I just have painter's tape for gas exchange while it colonized. I have filters ready to cover the holes for FAE, but I thought I wanted to wait until the substrate is fully colonized before doing so.
I inoculated by syringe into a sterile grain spawn bag.
The tub setup is just a tub with holes drilled currently, the holes are covered with painter's tape to allow some gas out but very little FAE. As I mentioned above I have filter sticker circles to cover the holes when I want to move to more FAE.
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783168 - 05/18/22 03:25 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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syringe straight to grain is notorious for contamination. you can get lucky, but a lot of that spawn ends up bacterial & new growers don’t realize it because bacterial spawn can be really subtle until you know what to look for, so it’s entirely part of it. you can probably stand to put on the micropore/filters now. it looks wet in there & could probably stand some more FAE. i usually just cover my holes with micropore tape from spawn & call it good. you don’t really need to distinguish between “colonization” & “fruiting” as long as it’s not getting too dry
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783172 - 05/18/22 03:29 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: syringe straight to grain is notorious for contamination. you can get lucky, but a lot of that spawn ends up bacterial & new growers don’t realize it because bacterial spawn can be really subtle until you know what to look for, so it’s entirely part of it. you can probably stand to put on the micropore/filters now. it looks wet in there & could probably stand some more FAE. i usually just cover my holes with micropore tape from spawn & call it good. you don’t really need to distinguish between “colonization” & “fruiting” as long as it’s not getting too dry
Since it is safe to take the top off for a short period, would it help if I got more up-close pictures of the sub? I'm not sure if it matters but I did heat the syringe red-hot before injection, I also cleaned everything with isopropyl alcohol throughly, as well as wearing gloves/mask in a throughly cleaned area etc.
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783191 - 05/18/22 03:37 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah take direct pictures of the sub. it’s ok to open tubs, you just don’t wanna be doing it obsessively every 10 minutes bc it starts to dry things out
did you work inside an SAB or in front of a flow hood? that’s the most important part. doing it in open air is really bad. you don’t need a mask or gloves, i work without them & so do many people. your ambient air has a million times more contams than you breathing does (though i wouldn’t recommend breathing directly into an SAB). the problem with spore to grain is mainly that syringes tend to be a bit dirty, even some of the best syringes still perform poorly once put straight to grain. you can get lucky, & im sure people have gotten clean spawn from it before, but i personally haven’t seen bags or jars from that method that didn’t look slightly bacterial. working with bags inside an SAB is pretty hard too, which is why a lot of people who don’t have access to a hood use jars.
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783197 - 05/18/22 03:40 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: yeah take direct pictures of the sub. it’s ok to open tubs, you just don’t wanna be doing it obsessively every 10 minutes bc it starts to dry things out
did you work inside an SAB or in front of a flow hood? that’s the most important part. doing it in open air is really bad. you don’t need a mask or gloves, i work without them & so do many people. your ambient air has a million times more contams than you breathing does (though i wouldn’t recommend breathing directly into an SAB). the problem with spore to grain is mainly that syringes tend to be a bit dirty, even some of the best syringes still perform poorly once put straight to grain. you can get lucky, & im sure people have gotten clean spawn from it before, but i personally haven’t seen bags or jars from that method that didn’t look slightly bacterial. working with bags inside an SAB is pretty hard too, which is why a lot of people who don’t have access to a hood use jars.
I did not work inside of a SAB, but I did work in an enclosed small room that was heavily cleaned with no windows. I understand it's not as good as a SAB, but I have to imagine it is much better than just doing it in the living room or something, but I could be wrong. Let me go take a few pictures with the top off and I'll post back in a few minutes.
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783201 - 05/18/22 03:47 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Tried to take as many as I could of different areas.









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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783203 - 05/18/22 03:49 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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i mean yeah it’s maybe better than working in an open field, but i promise you unless you’re working in a HEPA clean room it’s still miles worse than working in an SAB. there are trillions of spores in the air, the SAB mitigates that risk by making a small section of still air that isn’t affected by literally everything moving in the room. if you could work reliably in open air like that, people would. if you really want something you can do reliably outside an SAB (or a method you don’t need a pressure cooker to properly do) you should really look into PF tek. you’ll have a lot more success with your syringes that way in the future.
my guess is the sub is mildly bacterial, i’d give it more FAE without letting the surface dry out & see how it does
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783211 - 05/18/22 03:52 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: i mean yeah it’s maybe better than working in an open field, but i promise you unless you’re working in a HEPA clean room it’s still miles worse than working in an SAB. there are trillions of spores in the air, the SAB mitigates that risk by making a small section of still air that isn’t affected by literally everything moving in the room. if you could work reliably in open air like that, people would. if you really want something you can do reliably outside an SAB (or a method you don’t need a pressure cooker to properly do) you should really look into PF tek. you’ll have a lot more success with your syringes that way in the future.
my guess is the sub is mildly bacterial, i’d give it more FAE without letting the surface dry out & see how it does
Unfortunately, doing PF-Tek was a huge failure for me. Unless I did it widly incorrectly. Had lots of cakes and only 1 fruited and it was a very small yield, I still have 2 cakes just sitting doing nothing, like literally not a single thing for 4 weeks now.
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783232 - 05/18/22 04:04 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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sometimes it can take awhile for spores to germ, but that’s weird. maybe they were too dry? you’d have to walk me through your exact process of making them for me to help speculate at all. PF tek is generally pretty reliable
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783244 - 05/18/22 04:09 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: sometimes it can take awhile for spores to germ, but that’s weird. maybe they were too dry? you’d have to walk me through your exact process of making them for me to help speculate at all. PF tek is generally pretty reliable
My guess is that they were/are too dry. As far as this bulk attempt goes, I took a sniff of it and it doesn't smell great. I'm not sure exactly how to explain the smell, but it doesn't smell like mushrooms or dirt it has a sharp smell to it. If it is bacterial, what is my course of action, is it just a lost cause, will it just impact my yield, what can I expect?
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783252 - 05/18/22 04:17 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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if you try again, make sure the BRF verm mix is at field capacity (a few drops to small stream of water should come out once squeezed). also in the future, you might find it easier to use coir. im assuming you bought the manure pre pasteurized, but doing it yourself can be tricky & i think a lot of new growers don’t fully understand pasteurization. coir takes that variable out of the question. if you plan on doing this more than like once or twice more, an SAB & pressure cookers are very worthy investments.
if it’s smelling off then it’s definitely bacterial. it will typically impact yields a bit, a tub fighting something doesn’t have as much energy to spend making fruits, but i wouldn’t say you’re shit out of luck yet. i’ve pulled decent yields off bacterial subs & as long as it’s not showing color (ie. mold) you can usually squeeze out a flush. but most likely it will contaminate during/after the first or during the second flush. it’s ok to harvest from a tub with some mold, just make sure there isn’t any on the mushrooms & that the mushies aren’t super soft or weird looking at the base. if you get mold before pins are 50% of the way to full mushrooms you’re usually fucked, but if mold comes toward the end of a flush you can salt it or cut it out & let the flush finish before tossing.
just increase the airflow a bit; bacteria thrives in stagnant wet conditions
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783259 - 05/18/22 04:25 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: if you try again, make sure the BRF verm mix is at field capacity (a few drops to small stream of water should come out once squeezed). also in the future, you might find it easier to use coir. im assuming you bought the manure pre pasteurized, but doing it yourself can be tricky & i think a lot of new growers don’t fully understand pasteurization. coir takes that variable out of the question. if you plan on doing this more than like once or twice more, an SAB & pressure cookers are very worthy investments.
if it’s smelling off then it’s definitely bacterial. it will typically impact yields a bit, a tub fighting something doesn’t have as much energy to spend making fruits, but i wouldn’t say you’re shit out of luck yet. i’ve pulled decent yields off bacterial subs & as long as it’s not showing color (ie. mold) you can usually squeeze out a flush. but most likely it will contaminate during/after the first or during the second flush. it’s ok to harvest from a tub with some mold, just make sure there isn’t any on the mushrooms & that the mushies aren’t super soft or weird looking at the base. if you get mold before pins are 50% of the way to full mushrooms you’re usually fucked, but if mold comes toward the end of a flush you can salt it or cut it out & let the flush finish before tossing.
I did buy the manure pre-pasteurized. My cake attempt was with BRF/verm and I used an instapot to sterilize the jars with the BRF/verm mix. The cakes came out very white, very mushroom smelling. I did do a dunk for 24hrs for each. Just nothing ever happened. I used 3-4 inches of perlite in a SGFC. Nothing happened for 2-3 weeks I made another SGFC to try different "strategies" on separated cakes. I gave some more dunks and also sprayed more often which utterly failed (mold etc). The rest did nothing. 1 cake gave me a very small yield, I dunked it again after harvest and tried to get another flush with no luck. The other cake has just sat, no signs of mold, still smells "fresh" but it's just sitting there.
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783262 - 05/18/22 04:30 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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i don’t have much experience with fruiting cakes so i can’t give specific advice, but it’s possible your conditions just weren’t right. my advice with cakes would be to break them up or bury them in a shoebox with coco coir & fruit them that way. much less fucking around than trying to fruit cakes, & it gives you some bulk spawning experience
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783275 - 05/18/22 04:37 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: i don’t have much experience with fruiting cakes so i can’t give specific advice, but it’s possible your conditions just weren’t right. my advice with cakes would be to break them up or bury them in a shoebox with coco coir & fruit them that way. much less fucking around than trying to fruit cakes, & it gives you some bulk spawning experience
I will try that next time. So I've removed the tape and have replaced it with the filter disks, in this circumstance do I also want to fan a few times a day to make sure good airflow is coming through? Or should I stick with the standard of letting the airflow naturally?
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783300 - 05/18/22 04:55 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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manually fanning doesn’t really accomplish much, you need consistent passive airflow, not a blast of air randomly once or twice a day. don’t add any fans to the mix either. just increase that passive airflow & make sure the surface of the sub is retaining tiny beads of moisture
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783304 - 05/18/22 04:57 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: manually fanning doesn’t really accomplish much, you need consistent passive airflow, not a blast of air randomly once or twice a day. don’t add any fans to the mix either. just increase that passive airflow & make sure the surface of the sub is retaining tiny beads of moisture
So just to make sure I'm clear. I had painter's tape on there previously which should barely let any FAE. I've moved over to filter disks on the large holes and micropore tape on the small holes (near the top of the substrate). I should just leave it alone and let it do it's own FAE and see how it goes?
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783316 - 05/18/22 05:09 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes. the added FAE should be fine so long as your surface generally looks like this at all times. you want a balance of fresh air vs. moisture retention in the sub & you’ll learn to dial it in with your conditions. most people just “fruit” from spawn now, meaning they don’t restrict FAE until 100% colonization. as long as it’s not drying out you can give it FAE from the get go. i use this mono tub design with micropore tape over the lower holes & partially over the upper holes. i don’t need to mist until around the first flush.
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783321 - 05/18/22 05:16 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: yes. the added FAE should be fine so long as your surface generally looks like this at all times. you want a balance of fresh air vs. moisture retention in the sub & you’ll learn to dial it in with your conditions. most people just “fruit” from spawn now, meaning they don’t restrict FAE until 100% colonization. as long as it’s not drying out you can give it FAE from the get go. i use this mono tub design with micropore tape over the lower holes & partially over the upper holes. i don’t need to mist until around the first flush.
I appreciate the help, my tub is setup very similar to the one you've linked. I will say I do see clear white globes of water on top of... whatever it is growing at the top. I'll just leave it alone and see what happens over the next few days.
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783328 - 05/18/22 05:23 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah it looked close to it. just make sure it keeps the beads of water; as you increase FAE more evaporation will take place & your sub may dry out faster due to this. just watch the conditions & mist if necessary. don’t be afraid to mist the sub directly, just make sure it’s a gentle mist & not a super soaker blasting it lol
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783340 - 05/18/22 05:38 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Damn hazy, you are a trooper! I have went to answer a few times and by the time I typed it out, you had already replied! Careful or they will be calling YOU a gatekeeper haha! With all your agar talk and not inoculating with mss bs...... But as hazy has said, that tub needs air, but not to the sacrifice of moisture retention. Even following trusted teks, it is different from space to space and variety to variety. It will take a few tries to dial a tub in for a particular variety in your space. In the same space, with the same tub, same spawn/bulk I get different responses with different varieties. Surface conditions matter most once you spawn, then once its pinned you can judge fae by the fruits. Most of us do spawn directly to fruiting and have light at all stages of growth. Keep at it, keep us posted, and good luck!!!!
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783358 - 05/18/22 05:50 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: yeah it looked close to it. just make sure it keeps the beads of water; as you increase FAE more evaporation will take place & your sub may dry out faster due to this. just watch the conditions & mist if necessary. don’t be afraid to mist the sub directly, just make sure it’s a gentle mist & not a super soaker blasting it lol
Sounds good, I have distilled water ready to mist and I'll ensure the sub looks similar to how it looks now. I'll post updates because I searched all over the forums and I couldn't find something quite like what I have going on (at least not to my eye) so maybe this thread will help someone in the future.
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: Pinstagram]
#27783368 - 05/18/22 05:56 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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hahahahaha, ah yes, in my ivory tower working inside a cracked, duct taped SAB, spawning to $1 plastic bins. now before me, peasants!
i mean uhh— sneeze into a bag of uncle ben’s, perfect mushrooms every time!
if im not doing much i’m just constantly checking my threads, especially if i’m actively answering stuff.
good point, fruiting is entirely different space to space & even culture to culture sometimes. there is some degree of dialing in a tek can’t accommodate for. as long as you’re reading surface conditions/fruits you should be able to get it all balanced.
you don’t NEED distilled water, most tap is fine, but distilled isn’t gonna hurt anything. it’s good to keep threads updated for that reason, so keep us posted!
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783381 - 05/18/22 06:04 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Distilled water is pointless.
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: Pinstagram]
#27783385 - 05/18/22 06:07 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Beat again by the ivory tower!
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: Pinstagram]
#27783402 - 05/18/22 06:25 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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sorry ;D <33
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783433 - 05/18/22 06:52 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I dont want to take away from OP with commentary and jokes. But good going hazy! Its about helping one another and growing sacred/healing fruits. Thanks for giving solid advice! Now to not saving a contamed tub, but avoiding it to begin with.............. haha!!!!!!
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: Pinstagram]
#27783471 - 05/18/22 07:38 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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im always happy to help people! i know it can be hard & confusing getting started, but cultivation is actually pretty simple once you know what you’re doing. the best method is avoiding contamination in the first place, but if you have stuff going on that isn’t totally fucked i don’t see the harm in trying to get fruits from it. i’ve pulled pretty solid harvests from spawn people here probably would have told me to toss, but it is very inconsistent. but hey, mushrooms are mushrooms & an ounce is an ounce. if you’re just trying to have a personal stash even shitty grows add up, but it’s always best to try to get better with your next grow
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27783487 - 05/18/22 07:56 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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My basic thought process is, that letting it try to work itself out isn't going to hurt. If it starts turning green or very obviously is absolutely scuffed I'll toss it. Might as well see what I might be able to get out of it at this point, I'm already 4+ weeks in, certainly can't hurt.
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27783493 - 05/18/22 08:00 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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that’s my mentality too. if it’s not turning green & i don’t absolutely need the tub to spawn something else into, i don’t have much to lose. it’s pretty much game over when you see mold break out though
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27788395 - 05/22/22 03:54 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: that’s my mentality too. if it’s not turning green & i don’t absolutely need the tub to spawn something else into, i don’t have much to lose. it’s pretty much game over when you see mold break out though
Was gone for the weekend and just got back home. Checked on the montoub and there is green mold in the bottom left corner -.-. So I need to throw this out now. But I had some questions.
If I made a SAB would the process be: - Sterilize SAB - Put grain spawn bag + syringe + lighter in SAB - Sterilize everything in SAB - Heat syringe tip - inoculate grain spawn - Take grain out of SAB wait for it to fully colonize grain spawn - 2-3 weeks later do I need to use the SAB again to transfer grain spawn to bulk substrate? Or do I just do layer sub, layer grain, layer sub, layer grain etc in the open air?
Also, you mentioned doing PF-Tek jars. The information I followed originally said to just grow straight off the cakes, but I believe you mentioned moving the cakes into a bulk substrate. Is that inherently more sterile?
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27789412 - 05/23/22 12:19 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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oof /: it happens. hopefully the next run goes better.
so you can’t really sterilize anything outside of an autoclave/pressure cooker, wiping it down with iso or bleach or whatever is more sanitization not really sterilization. semantic difference but it’s important just so you understand what’s happening. i don’t even wipe down my SAB every time anymore but for peace of mind wiping the inside with 70% iso is good. i will also wipe down plates/jar lids with 70% iso too but this might even be unnecessary. again, best for peace of mind & it doesn’t take too much extra effort. bags are pretty difficult to work with in the SAB & i’d recommend against it but im assuming you already have the bag so you can try it again. like i said earlier, syringe straight to bag is a recipe for disaster & every time i’ve seen it it ends up with bacterial or moldy spawn. i would be willing to bet quite a bit that’s why your first tub molded.
you can leave the lighter/torch outside your SAB. i & most people here heat their instruments outside the SAB, it’s unnecessary to have it inside & you don’t wanna risk alcohol fumes catching on fire in an enclosed space. i think i said this earlier in the thread too but spawning is inherently dirty & in the famous words of RR, you can scratch your asshole before spawning with no problems. once the grain is 100% colonized there is no more foothold for contamination to come & colonize any grain because the mycelium has locked it down, which is why you shouldn’t spawn before 100% colonization. fruiting is done in open air & there are millions of contaminate spores floating around at all times. if your spawn is clean there is no problem. you don’t need to layer it, you can just mix the coco coir & grains all together. i usually do a 1/2” top layer of pure coir over the top after & give it a solid misting. if you can’t do agar you really should do PF tek. much better success rates with spore syringes. i don’t see the point of fruiting them as cakes personally so i’d recommend just breaking them up as you would with any grain spawn & mixing them into a shoebox of coco coir
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27790464 - 05/24/22 09:17 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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I do already have another bag, and other syringes so I figure I might as well try at this point. I'm going to make a SAB though. I did notice you mentioned a casing layer, I didn't do that previously. I did a layer of manure, layer of spawn, layer of manure etc but no coir casing on top. Should I do a casing after I make my spawn lasagna?
Also, I don't mean this in an argumentative way, just trying to understand, why is PF-Tek less likely to become contaminated as compared to grain spawn bags with syringes? From my limited knowledge it seems like the same risk because you are injecting into a port and contamination can enter in that process.
One final thing I thought of that I'm not sure if it matters. On the grow that failed, I used about 10cc of liquid spores which I'm now coming to understand was, at the best, a waste of material, and at the worst, could have screwed the liquid balance. Could using too many CC's from the spore syringe potentially have caused my issues? For reference, I plan to use 4cc for a 3lb bag this time.
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27791148 - 05/24/22 08:36 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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you don’t need to layer anything like that, just mix it all up. im assuming you’re using pre pasteurized manure but in the future just get coco coir. you don’t have to fuck around with pasteurization that way & coir works great. “casing” is typically used for a layer added after the sub has fully colonized, pseudo casing/top layer is when you just add an extra layer of coir misted solidly at spawn. i do it because my climate is dry & it helps encourage a better pin set.
contamination typically comes from within the syringe itself, doesn’t matter if you do everything “right” because you can’t really get 100% clean spores. for whatever reason PF tek just handles bacteria much better than grains do. cakes aren’t being smacked around like grain jars are & i think the way they are prepped helps bacteria from spreading around the grains & proliferating like they do with wet grains. i can’t tell you the exact reason why but what i can tell you is there’s definitely a reason why people here recommend PF for spore syringes & recommend against spores to grain. i’ve personally never seen a spore to grain bag that wasn’t bacterial & i’ve seen plenty of people end up with a tub of mold like your last attempt. PF empirically has an incredibly high success rate compared to shooting spores in a bag of grains, people aren’t just pulling it out of their ass.
what caused your issues was going spore to grain. more moisture content can fuck things up & there’s no reason to use 10ccs but people do liquid culture which is way more liquid & doesn’t contaminate like spore to grain
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27792551 - 05/25/22 04:10 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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That's because lc is clean.
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27793938 - 05/26/22 04:23 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: you don’t need to layer anything like that, just mix it all up. im assuming you’re using pre pasteurized manure but in the future just get coco coir. you don’t have to fuck around with pasteurization that way & coir works great. “casing” is typically used for a layer added after the sub has fully colonized, pseudo casing/top layer is when you just add an extra layer of coir misted solidly at spawn. i do it because my climate is dry & it helps encourage a better pin set.
contamination typically comes from within the syringe itself, doesn’t matter if you do everything “right” because you can’t really get 100% clean spores. for whatever reason PF tek just handles bacteria much better than grains do. cakes aren’t being smacked around like grain jars are & i think the way they are prepped helps bacteria from spreading around the grains & proliferating like they do with wet grains. i can’t tell you the exact reason why but what i can tell you is there’s definitely a reason why people here recommend PF for spore syringes & recommend against spores to grain. i’ve personally never seen a spore to grain bag that wasn’t bacterial & i’ve seen plenty of people end up with a tub of mold like your last attempt. PF empirically has an incredibly high success rate compared to shooting spores in a bag of grains, people aren’t just pulling it out of their ass.
what caused your issues was going spore to grain. more moisture content can fuck things up & there’s no reason to use 10ccs but people do liquid culture which is way more liquid & doesn’t contaminate like spore to grain
Thanks, I appreciate the information. Just to be clear I wasn't saying that PF-Tek isn't better for syringes, I am just trying to better understand the differences, and I appreciate you explaining it.
So in the future I shouldn't use manure, and just go ahead and use coir instead? Is the ratio the same as manure for coir? Also, how do people use grain bags if not with syringes or do people just simply not use grain spawn bags?
I have been doing constant research to try to better understand this all and be more successful, and I came across the Uncle Ben Tek, are you familiar with it? If so do you recommend it as a potential Tek to try. Again I know PF-TEK would be your top recommendation but I failed miserably with a lot of jars and I'm hesitant to repeat that. I was hoping to try some other Tek to see if I could learn more or maybe find a process that works better for me.
Lastly, the two PF-TEK cakes I have that haven't done anything for probably a month now (no mold no growth just simply nothing) would it be worth it to break them up into a coir shoebox?
Thanks again
Edited by lamorti (05/26/22 04:25 PM)
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WyoMX

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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti] 1
#27794001 - 05/26/22 04:54 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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With coir you do use the same ratio like 1 part spawn to to 2 or 3 parts coir generally. Most people who use bags make them themselves and inoculate with agar or liquid culture infront of a flowhood, like hazy was saying going spores directly to grain is a huge gamble. And we all know about the uncle Ben's tek it is unfortunately a very very bad tek to follow. Seems easy enough but the bags contain a ton of moisture which leads to easier contams and you're still going spore to grain which is not reliable at all. Some people have had success but most people have alot of failure with it.
With those last 2 cakes if you really wanna try to break them up you can but I don't think it's worth it in my opinion. If you've been trying to fruit them for a month there gonna be alot weaker and susceptible to contams.
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: WyoMX]
#27794070 - 05/26/22 05:27 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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for sure! sorry, i realized the "people aren't just pulling it out of their ass" may have come off a bit aggressive, i didn't mean it that way at all. happy i could help explain a bit! (:
bags move too much air around & are really tall which makes them difficult in the SAB. i'm sure some people have done it with success, but basically everyone using an SAB just uses jars. grain spawn bags are easiest to work with in front of a flowhood using agar or LC.
i would highly discourage the uncle ben's tek as well, it's basically a worse spore to grain. haven't ever seen a UB bag that wasn't super bacterial. you can get mushrooms using the method, but it's not reliable at all & you'll end up losing much more than you win. plus it doesn't teach you anything about growing or what to look for or do for future grows. if you failed with PF tek there's probably a reason, & i'd say you're more likely to fail with uncle bens if you can't get PF tek down either. what did you do for PF the first time you did it?
if you really wanted success, i'd recommend just buying a pressure cooker & getting into agar & prepping your own grains. it becomes a lot easier to narrow down what you're doing wrong that way & if you're planning on consistently growing, a PC is an invaluable tool & agar will really help in getting consistently clean cultures & results. if you have the money & want to grow mushrooms more than like twice, the PC is excellent
are you saying those PF cakes haven't grown any mycelium & are still just uncolonized cakes in the jar? or were they colonized & birthed & now are not fruiting?
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27794137 - 05/26/22 06:15 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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What PF tek are you following? How are you inoculating the jars if you don’t have a SAB? I grow a lot of cakes and get reasonable yields considering the method. I use an instant pot and make my own prints and syringes. Simple stuff. Please don’t Uncle Ben. Use this to post a picture of your jars. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=255&Number=27127917&fpart=&PHPSESSID=
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27794204 - 05/26/22 06:58 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said:

for sure! sorry, i realized the "people aren't just pulling it out of their ass" may have come off a bit aggressive, i didn't mean it that way at all. happy i could help explain a bit! (:
bags move too much air around & are really tall which makes them difficult in the SAB. i'm sure some people have done it with success, but basically everyone using an SAB just uses jars. grain spawn bags are easiest to work with in front of a flowhood using agar or LC.
i would highly discourage the uncle ben's tek as well, it's basically a worse spore to grain. haven't ever seen a UB bag that wasn't super bacterial. you can get mushrooms using the method, but it's not reliable at all & you'll end up losing much more than you win. plus it doesn't teach you anything about growing or what to look for or do for future grows. if you failed with PF tek there's probably a reason, & i'd say you're more likely to fail with uncle bens if you can't get PF tek down either. what did you do for PF the first time you did it?
if you really wanted success, i'd recommend just buying a pressure cooker & getting into agar & prepping your own grains. it becomes a lot easier to narrow down what you're doing wrong that way & if you're planning on consistently growing, a PC is an invaluable tool & agar will really help in getting consistently clean cultures & results. if you have the money & want to grow mushrooms more than like twice, the PC is excellent
are you saying those PF cakes haven't grown any mycelium & are still just uncolonized cakes in the jar? or were they colonized & birthed & now are not fruiting?
The cakes I have currently; there is mycelium, a solid cylinder of it. But they have never fruited, haven't done anything. They are not as white and don't smell as strongly of mushroom anymore, but other than that quite literally nothing has happened. There is no mold on either, no signs of anything.
As far as what I did previously. I don't have the exact proportions off hand but basically I:
* Mixed verm and BRF * Got it wet to what I thought was field capacity (I am not confident of this step) * Jared the mixture into wide mouth jars * Dry verm layer on top * Tin foil around top of jar * Used a instant pot to cook jars for several hours * Let the jars cool overnight
Now here was a first problem: the jars became vacuums so when I went to inject (self healing hole in cap) it sucked like 5cc immediately into the jar. The subsequent jars I opened just barely to vent (probably just sucked in contams at this point I realize now). I had no gas exchange port on this first batch causing the vacuum (I assume).
Second batch same process but this time with gas exchange port (micropore) as well as self healing port. No vacuum this time.
* Tin foil off, inject (no SAB) * Place in dual tub with reptile heater to keep top tub at 72
Results were, all but 2 jars colonized (the 2 never did anything). Dunked and rolled some jars and not others (wasn't sure if you should or shouldn't do this so I experimented). The ones that had the vacuum seal all were contaminated shortly after birthing. I placed cakes on (lots) of perlite on small squares of tinfoil. Did FAE fanning few times a day misted side of tub. At this point I can't remember exactly what happened along to way to each cake, but essentially the results were 1 cake that fruited directly on the cake for an extremely small yield (like 2g no kidding) then no second flush. 2 cakes that have done literally nothing since probably a month ago. For reference I inoculated the grain bag, and moved that to manure after these 2 cakes were done. So I'm pretty confident it's been 4-6 weeks ago.
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: WyoMX]
#27794213 - 05/26/22 07:04 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
WyoMX said: With coir you do use the same ratio like 1 part spawn to to 2 or 3 parts coir generally. Most people who use bags make them themselves and inoculate with agar or liquid culture infront of a flowhood, like hazy was saying going spores directly to grain is a huge gamble. And we all know about the uncle Ben's tek it is unfortunately a very very bad tek to follow. Seems easy enough but the bags contain a ton of moisture which leads to easier contams and you're still going spore to grain which is not reliable at all. Some people have had success but most people have alot of failure with it.
With those last 2 cakes if you really wanna try to break them up you can but I don't think it's worth it in my opinion. If you've been trying to fruit them for a month there gonna be alot weaker and susceptible to contams.
When you say 1:2 or 1:3 that is based on weight? As in weight of the mycelium?
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti] 1
#27794222 - 05/26/22 07:16 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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quarts of spawn to quarts of substrate, it’s volume. it may work for lbs:lbs but i don’t usually spawn my stuff that way
-------------------- you're not the first to set foot here, just another
===================================
i love glass petris & you can too!!
posts i constantly refer back to
new to mushroom cultivation?? read this!!
===================================
 
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27794369 - 05/26/22 08:57 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: quarts of spawn to quarts of substrate, it’s volume. it may work for lbs:lbs but i don’t usually spawn my stuff that way
Makes sense, thanks.
Also, my existing tub since I'm letting it just live it's worst life for the time being. I just checked it and the mold hasn't spread on the top it's still localized to the bottom left corner and the top left corner. I also noticed a ton of mycelium piss all over. From my understanding that is a byproduct of the mycelium fighting off a bacterial infection. My question is, does that mean there is some small hope of something growing? The mold probably takes up 20% of the entire substrate (to my eye on the top who knows throughout)
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27794374 - 05/26/22 09:01 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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in my experience, if you get mold before pins you’re fucked. it’s better to start new stuff if you can
-------------------- you're not the first to set foot here, just another
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i love glass petris & you can too!!
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new to mushroom cultivation?? read this!!
===================================
 
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27794386 - 05/26/22 09:08 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: in my experience, if you get mold before pins you’re fucked. it’s better to start new stuff if you can
Ya I have the tub off in it's own world and I'm starting a batch of new things this weekend. I'm going to do PF-TEK, also grain bag since I have it. I'll do PF-TEK in a SAB to coir 1:2/1:3 straight to fruiting condition. I'll try the grain in a SAB for good measure. At this point I have so many supplies I'm going to just experiment and see what I can or can't come up with lol.
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27796647 - 05/28/22 04:44 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just for an update.
Broke up the two cakes I have that have been sitting for over a month now. They might as well have been concrete blocks. Solid rock hard all the way through. I broke them up and tried to at least give the broken up parts water. I kept working to get the pieces as small as I could, I'd say a dime sized or smaller at a minimum. Mixed coco coir in a bucket with boiling water (waited about an hour to cool), did field capacity checks and filled a container at a 1:3 ratio. Put about an inch of casing on top of the mix with slightly more water (since the cakes were so incredibly dry) and also misted the casing and the top of the container.
Injected 3cc into another grain spawn bag in the SAB.
Tomorrow I'm going to work on making PF-TEK jars I have a pressure cooker arriving tomorrow for that.
Guess we will see what happens.
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27799603 - 05/30/22 09:47 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Another update.
Made 6 PF-TEK jars, BRF/Verm/Water on a 2:1:1 ratio. Put a layer of dry verm on top and sealed them up with modified lids. Put them in the PC for 90 minutes at 15 PSI. Let my jars cool for 12+ hours and just inoculated 1cc into each in the SAB. Flame sterilized between each injection.
As a side note, I'm going to make no-pour agar this week and shoot some spores on that in the SAB. See what grows and if I get mold/bacteria I will try to salvage the mycelium until I can get a good agar plate. That way I can at the very least know I'm starting from a good syringe. I will make LC from the successful agar to help as well.
The 2 cakes I broke up and put in coir are showing some white substance. Not sure if it's mycelium yet it's 2 small spots and the coir just smells strongly of coir so far.
Edited by lamorti (05/30/22 09:50 PM)
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27799720 - 05/31/22 01:34 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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glad to hear it! i think you'll dig agar. once you use it a bit it becomes really easy & it's fun in my opinion. good luck with the tub (: very possible the white is myc, but trich also starts out white. pics would help diagnose but you'll know soon enough
-------------------- you're not the first to set foot here, just another
===================================
i love glass petris & you can too!!
posts i constantly refer back to
new to mushroom cultivation?? read this!!
===================================
 
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27800066 - 05/31/22 10:16 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
hazyhorse said: glad to hear it! i think you'll dig agar. once you use it a bit it becomes really easy & it's fun in my opinion. good luck with the tub (: very possible the white is myc, but trich also starts out white. pics would help diagnose but you'll know soon enough
Here are some pics of the growth. The spots are a little bigger this morning and there are 3 now instead of 2. I tried the bucket Tek (boiling water into bucket, lid on top) for pasteurization, not sure if that's needed or the best Tek. I used a coir brick so I had to stir it quite a bit to get it all mixed. I only smell coir so far. At least as compared to my last attempt, whatever is growing seems to be growing flat and not making those big mounds like before.

Edit: I'm noticing in some of these pictures the growth looks blue/green but it doesn't look that way to my eye so I'm not sure where that coloring is coming from in the picture. The outside plastic case is different hues as well so I'm assuming my phone camera is doing something wonky to the color.
Edited by lamorti (05/31/22 10:26 AM)
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27800671 - 05/31/22 05:27 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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So I'm not visually seeing this green cast looking at the coir, but I see it on my computer, I did take closer pictures. Whatever is growing is growing pretty rapidly. There are 5-6 spots now although the new ones are very tiny. Here are some better close-ups of the original spots.
I did make sure to get a brick of coco coir that didn't have Trichoderma added to it, it was organic 100% pure coir. But, on my computer at least, it's looking like Trichoderma. I wouldn't be surprised as those 2 cakes have literally sat for 30+ days and became cement bricks. Trichoderma probably took over well before anything could happen with the mycelium bricks.
Should I pressure cook my coir even if it's 100% coco coir?
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hazyhorse
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27801061 - 06/01/22 01:35 AM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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it’s probably from the cakes, not the coir. a lot of people run cold tap hydrated coir just fine
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: hazyhorse]
#27804714 - 06/03/22 07:26 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Just another update.
Made 12 no pour agar jars. PC'd for an hour at 15psi. Let cool for 12+ hours. For whatever reason the lids all became loose (I used modified lids so they were on tight before PC). I tightened the lids again, but I'm hoping that didn't introduce contams. Added a couple of drops of spores from the syringe to 2 agar jars in the SAB. I have one jar sitting right side up and one upside down (there is a small amount of condensation). Figured I'd try both methods. Other 10 jars are in the same room just sitting to see if anything grows by itself (hopefully not), sort of as a control as compared to the two jars. I'll wait to see what happens with the agar.
My plan at this time is to isolate good healthy mycelium from the agar, either by luck in a single jar or by transplanting into a new agar jar.
As far as my BRF jars, no noticable growth yet, today is day 5 for those since inoculation.
Let me know if I've messed something up or if you have any tips. Thanks again for the help.
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lamorti
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Re: Question about mycelium growth in monotub [Re: lamorti]
#27817828 - 06/13/22 04:02 PM (2 years, 7 months ago) |
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Sorry, it's been a minute, I was playing the waiting game. So here is where I am at now.
PF-Tek BRF Jars:
5 of the 6 jars are showing growth. Looks healthy and fine to me as far as I can tell, I can take pictures if it's useful but basically, I see no reason to be concerned. 1 jar has 0 growth noticeable though for whatever reason (all inoculated at the same time)
Agar Dishes:
Made 12 no-pour agar jars. 10 are unused still, 2 jars have been inoculated with the spores. All jars are in the same room and were done at the same time. The 10 unused jars show no growth of anything so I think my agar is all sterile. The 2 inoculated jars have pure white growth, assumed to be mycelium, it's been roughly 1 week since inoculation and growth was slow so I don't think it's bacteria or mold. I have attached pictures of the 2 jars so you could take a look and let me know if you see something I don't. My only slight concern is that the mycelium is very aerial and fuzzy.
Future:
I plan to agar transfer to 4 new jars to see if I can get the growth to be more rhizomorphic, as well as to better validate that I am only growing mycelium. If so, I plan to create a LC, then inoculate another agar jar with the LC to make sure I have a known good LC syringe.
Open to any feedback or suggestions.
Thanks
Pictures:
Edited by lamorti (06/13/22 04:04 PM)
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