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InvisibleSudoNimh
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Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? * 3
    #27757510 - 04/30/22 11:52 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I've seen a few older posts regarding polypropylene (PP from here) not being safe even if it is culinary/BPA-free. Is there any validity to that? Are there any legitimate studies showing the harm/potential harm of PP?

Ziplock twisties are used daily en masse for people's meals. Are they really that much of an issue for us (or mycological work)...? A huge benefit of PP is that it keeps its shape despite massive temp fluctations. If they were a large health issue, I would imagine it to be better known to the public or have stricter lines drawn for consumers...? Maybe that's a lot of trust lol

FWIW, WebMD says: "The most important place to eliminate plastics is your food storage and preparation." *(URL listed at bottom)*

We have countless examples of the efficacy of Ziplock twisties here and how wonderful they are for culture work. They're almost a cheat code for GE and practicality. I would have to hear some _very_ valid arguments to stop using them. As a side note, I've been here since 2014, took a break for a few years and used an email account that I can no longer access. So, here is to a fresh start lol

WebMD link where quote was seen 2022-4-30:
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/what-to-know-about-the-toxicity-of-polypropylene

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OfflineSirPsycho
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: SudoNimh] * 2
    #27758430 - 05/01/22 06:36 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

As someone who's entire set up is PP5, I am extremely interested in this topic.


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InvisibleSudoNimh
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: SirPsycho] * 1
    #27770911 - 05/10/22 09:12 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I wish we had some more answers then lol

I am ~85% pp5 (I have ~8 dozen zip minis) and 15% boro (petris & tubes for isolating and storing exclusively).

Hopefully someone with more medical experience can chime in eventually! Glad to at least hear from you, fren XD May the data acquisition odds be in our favor.

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OnlineB Traven
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: SudoNimh]
    #27772994 - 05/11/22 06:29 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

It would be a drop in the bucket compared to all the other sources in the environment and food supply.

The mycelium would have to take it up and transport it to the fruits, which probably doesn't happen in large amounts. Then, of course, we'd have to consume the fungus, and even the heshiest of heshers still eats way more food.

I think that for BPA specifically, the biggest issue is with hot liquids. Cold and/or solid materials are less of a concern. Of course, that may be counteracted somewhat by the longer residence time and potential enzymatic activity.


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Beware of advice- even this.

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OfflineNichrome
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: B Traven]
    #27773121 - 05/11/22 08:01 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

As some of us have learned, one drop can go a long ways.

We talking voc's here or are we talking intracellular micro and nanoplastics?


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β€œTea is the magic key to the vault where my brain is kept.” – Frances Hardinge

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InvisibleSudoNimh
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: B Traven]
    #27773890 - 05/12/22 11:48 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

If hot liquids are a concern, then pouring hot agar and sterilizing them in a pressure cooker would fall under that umbrella as well, right? Certainly, zip minis are BPA free, but are there other concerns outside of bisphenol that are known?

Rather than any conjecture on what could be the issue or specifically targeting any claims, I was curious if anyone has seen any published research on the topic in general? You can find BPA studies easily but not any other risks to PP5 outside of that. I saw old posts claiming that there were leached hormones from polymers but didn't see multiple peer-reviewed studies to confirm that.

As for the exposure to other environmental risks being greater, we aren't grading risk on a curve. If there is an issue with cultivation in PP5, are medicinals grown in them actually medicinal if they create some other health risks that using boro simply wouldn't? You're exposed to radiation in an x-ray and at Chernobyl. Just because Chernobyl is worse, that doesn't make x-rays healthy even if they are healthier than the elephant foot in the basement. Especially if you can avoid it, like we can by using something other than PP5.

Personally, being that I provide these to restaurants/people, I'd like to know ethically if that affects them negatively when they think they are doing something that will help them. If it causes leukemia or something in 20 years, I'd rather just splurge on more boro and avoid the guilt/risk.

Edited by SudoNimh (05/12/22 11:54 AM)

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OnlineB Traven
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: SirPsycho]
    #27773921 - 05/12/22 12:09 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Hot liquids that one would consume. We're talking here about agar that the mycelium will be colonizing, and then that mycelium will only be the starting point for a network that colonizes your growing medium. Several orders of potential biological filtration and dulution, as compared to someone directly eating hot soup out of such a container or what-have-you.

The truth is that nobody knows what the long-term effect of all these plastics is going to be. If you're that concerned, then better safe than sorry.


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Beware of advice- even this.

Edited by B Traven (05/12/22 01:16 PM)

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InvisibleSudoNimh
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: B Traven]
    #27774171 - 05/12/22 02:43 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Hot liquids that are used to cultivate something that we do, ultimately, consume. When the microbead issues became hot in the news, we saw polymers going from the bottom of the food chain to the top (thanks, Crest 3D White!). Those toothpaste polymers were bonding to people's gums and to the fish tissue permanently as well. That is a macro scale, sure. But it occurred, was novel and was documented.

I'm not looking for a single definitive answer or anything. I want to see what's been done for research, what's been documented in nature on this topic and what the results were. "Nobody knows" is an assumption/absolute I really can't get down with. I have worked in medical research for ~13 years now. The point of the question was asking if anyone here does know what we do know; I already know that we don't know much which was the catalyst for the question haha

But if anyone were to know outside of who I already work with, I hoped that it'd be here. Certainly, I've never mentioned to anyone I work with that I cultivate mushrooms in PP5 in my spare time (lol) but the conversation of PS/PP petris have come up. None of them cared that much because nothing out of our petri dishes is meant to be consumed by humans ever. In the 8 years I've been coming here, I've been utterly blown away by the amount of nuanced and immensely technical information that I gained from others. If you don't personally know of any data like this, that's okay! But hopefully someone here eventually does. I'd rather not say "nobody knows" as that is a defeatist attitude that will keep us from exploring so that we do, eventually, learn and know. Never posting this because of that believe would keep us from finding someone who does have this key to the shut palace of the data king (RIP Manly P Hall). Even if that comes in years, as we've seen in other resurrected threads, at least the question is posited for future rebuttal or support with evidence. 

To err on the side of caution, I could stop using PP5. For the same reason that I won't stop using PP5 because of conjecture and pseudoscience from my ultra-hippie friends' claims, I also won't make any decision contrary to that. In either case, I'm making uninformed decisions, right? That feels silly when, otherwise, I'm being so cautious with contams/just-throwing-it-out to save lives all the time. In potentially unsurprising fashion, my ultra-hippie friends still consume everything I make out of them lol

Tangent: it must not be that big of a deal when they buy GHB made from pool cleaner and blow made with petrol from strangers at Coachella either. I won't pretend to understand my fellow generation's cognitive dissonance on health but I'd like to better understand polymers and their effects on human health hahahaha

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OnlineB Traven
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: SudoNimh]
    #27774237 - 05/12/22 03:31 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I'm just saying that, in the case of agar, you're only talking about a starter for your culture, which then grows into other material. So I'm just not seeing any real opportunity for bio-accumulation or consumption of harmful compounds from an agar container. I'd be more concerned about filter-patch bags, or maybe even sterilite tubs. I guess if you're cultivating in PC'ed pp5's, that could be a concern. Probably one of the reasons I've stuck with glass quart jars, honestly.

That was originally in reference to BPA, anyway, not pp5's. It is my general understanding that the softer, more malleable plastics tend to be more problematic.

I think the precautionary principle is an admirable approach, and not necessarily hippie pseudoscience. Nobody can prove that anything is safe in the long run at this point, especially given that we have more plastics in our daily lives and environment than ever before. But I also know how much plastics are involved in modern food production, including organic agriculture, with very little thought given to the consequences. I'm pretty sure I get a higher annual dose of nasties from strawberries grown on plastic mulch and stored in plastic clamshells than I do from the few handfuls of psychoactive mushrooms I consume.

And sure, maybe that's not great. But to reference the radiation analogy, I don't lose any sleep over the amount of radiation I get from eating bananas, either.

Were I to venture into culinary mushroom cultivation, I'd probably give this more serious thought, too. But I still don't think there's anywhere near enough research done on the subject.

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InvisibleSudoNimh
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: B Traven]
    #27774657 - 05/12/22 08:41 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I neglected to thank you before-- thank you so much for even taking the time to respond, let alone with such thoughtful responses. It's a breath of fresh air on the internet.

And I agree that there is definitely not enough research. :/ Plastic is ubiquitous at this point. The fears of BPA were genuine but it seems to have created a specter with naturalists who fear science and modern medicine. I don't blame them necessarily but I'd like their anxieties to not be so infectious either lol

Welp, for now, everybody is getting Ziplock mushrooms of every variety.

Edited by SudoNimh (05/12/22 08:42 PM)

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OfflineNichrome
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: SudoNimh]
    #27774867 - 05/12/22 11:37 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

That nasty infectious anxiety. Scary stuff. :laugh2:


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β€œTea is the magic key to the vault where my brain is kept.” – Frances Hardinge

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InvisibleSudoNimh
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: Nichrome]
    #27778183 - 05/15/22 12:02 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Isn't it though??? And the only cure is knowledge lol

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OfflineMr.Giggles
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: SudoNimh]
    #27781041 - 05/17/22 02:35 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I'd say most things humans do/create is found to cause horrible diseases years later. We use science to try to fix the problems science creates. I read most microplastics come from synthetic fabrics, and in a recent study 80% of people had measurable levels of plastic in their bloodstream. I honestly don't know but if I had to guess you probably inhale and consume more microplastics and toxic shit than the the pp5. I think all of these toxic substances and endocrine disruptors we expose ourselves to on a daily basis affect us on a subconscious level.


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OfflineNichrome
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: Mr.Giggles]
    #27782069 - 05/17/22 07:44 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

:whathesaid:


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β€œTea is the magic key to the vault where my brain is kept.” – Frances Hardinge

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OfflineMr.Giggles
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: Nichrome]
    #27782527 - 05/18/22 05:52 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I heard oysters will begin to break down bags, can anyone confirm this? Stamets showed that they will break down oil and diesel fuel so it wouldn't surprise me if they eat through plastics.


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OfflineNichrome
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: Mr.Giggles]
    #27782739 - 05/18/22 08:45 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I had a tremetese ochracea that ate through the polystyrene petri dish it was in.


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β€œTea is the magic key to the vault where my brain is kept.” – Frances Hardinge

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InvisibleGourmetGod
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: Mr.Giggles]
    #27784620 - 05/19/22 05:01 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Giggles said:
I heard oysters will begin to break down bags, can anyone confirm this? Stamets showed that they will break down oil and diesel fuel so it wouldn't surprise me if they eat through plastics.




Never had that happen with oysters and I have grown golden/yellow, blue, pink, grey, Elm, and king trumpets in PP unicorn bags. Sometimes I leave them in the bags for extended periods after fruiting before a friend picks them up for use in their compost pile. Haven't examined the bags under a microscope after using them though...

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OfflineNichrome
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: GourmetGod]
    #27787625 - 05/21/22 11:29 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)



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β€œTea is the magic key to the vault where my brain is kept.” – Frances Hardinge

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OfflineMr.Giggles
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: Nichrome]
    #27787772 - 05/22/22 05:28 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nichrome said:





Yeah I hate the human species... Don't take it personally, we're all a part of the virus... It's also disturbing that "Single-use" plastics are still made to last forever. Society will inevitably collapse soon tho, this is the beginning of the end we're living in.


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OfflineNichrome
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Re: Arguments for/against polypropylene? Negative health impacts? [Re: Mr.Giggles] * 1
    #27788004 - 05/22/22 10:47 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I don't like that outlook and love humans very much. I see a bright future and have yet to see any form of inevitability. I am actively and with the help of others, working on creating one of the beautiful futures I can see the possibility of.

Hatred leads to destruction and to hate the very form of ones own being is to hate everything that created and led to that being. We are an integral part of the earth and the human form and population has a beautiful purpose.


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β€œTea is the magic key to the vault where my brain is kept.” – Frances Hardinge

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