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InvisibleAsante
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Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident?
    #27781752 - 05/17/22 03:18 PM (2 years, 2 days ago)




Quote:

Right-wing politics is generally defined by support of the view that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable.





Rightwingers:  which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident?

What's the natural order for you?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Asante]
    #27782464 - 05/18/22 04:07 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

I can't hear you?

Who are the Ups and the Downs?

Classify the hierarchy of your right wing ideology.

Is it about wealth, class, race, religion?

All of them?

is this a case of "he's trying to make us look bad by having us share our sincere beliefs"?


I just want clarity.

The left is all about a level playing field, the right is about a hierarchy, we get what a level playing field means, tell us more about the hierarcy you envision.

Who's the pharaoh and who lugs the stones in your dynasty?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #27782560 - 05/18/22 06:32 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

I tried this once with a “explain your political beliefs” thread, and not a single conservative responded lol. Don’t take it personally they just can’t explain themselves.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27782605 - 05/18/22 07:28 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

I believe in complete equality where each uses their strong points to cover for each others weak points, with one for all and all for one.

Why is it so hard to share your heartfelt beliefs if you are rightwing?

Lay it out for us guys.


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Offlinemycot
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Asante]
    #27782645 - 05/18/22 07:59 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

Left, Right what a joke. Do these terms mean anything any more.
Seems to me the left are a bunch of extreme right wing assholes.
We should first ask the left which hierarchies they hold self-evident if an honest discussion is to be had.
Beliefs are one thing, what actually works out in practice is often quiet another.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #27782671 - 05/18/22 08:17 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

See what I mean


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Offlinemycot
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27782753 - 05/18/22 08:56 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
See what I mean




I'm sorry but I neither self-identify as a right-winger answering the question nor as a conservative. (Ha Ha, what the fuck is being conserved)
You certainly seem to have erred in assuming what my political position is.

Take my post as being neither left nor right. (Politics these days are a joke anyway)
I hope your not implying that because I question, that makes me right-wing because your post could be interpreted that way.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: mycot]
    #27782805 - 05/18/22 10:14 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

mycot said:
Left, Right what a joke. Do these terms mean anything any more.






OK, if you don't know what they mean:


Quote:

Right-wing politics is generally defined by support of the view that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable,[1][2][3] typically supporting this position on the basis of natural law, economics, authority or tradition.[4]: 693, 721 [5][6][7][8][9] Hierarchy and inequality may be seen as natural results of traditional social differences[10][11] or competition in market economies





Quote:

Left-wing politics is the support of social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition of social hierarchy.[1][2][3][4] Left-wing politics typically involve a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished.[1] According to emeritus professor of economics Barry Clark, left-wing supporters "claim that human development flourishes when individuals engage in cooperative, mutually respectful relations that can thrive only when excessive differences in status, power, and wealth are eliminated.





Now you know left from right.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: mycot] * 1
    #27782812 - 05/18/22 10:17 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

mycot said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
See what I mean




I'm sorry but I neither self-identify as a right-winger answering the question nor as a conservative.





Every conservative says some version of this.


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Offlinemycot
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Asante] * 1
    #27782858 - 05/18/22 11:07 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

Thank you Asante for your post and for those definitions which I think are quite well written.
When I said "Left, Right what a joke. Do these terms mean anything any more." I meant in the context of modern and especially US politics, not that I don't have an idea of what left and right may mean.
To clarify my political position may be best described as anarchist and since there is no such thing as right-wing anarchism (despite opinions to the contrary) I could also be described as a lefty.

In the description of Left-wing politics, those are noble ideals without doubt.
But that is not what I see in the American left. Instead I see just another political institution totally compromised by money power making all those ideals fully impossible.
So things are going backwards and inequality grows even during periods when the left has been in power. :shrug:

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27782871 - 05/18/22 11:21 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Every conservative says some version of this.




Stop projecting shit.
If you want to call me conservative, then you are going to have to explain what makes you believe that, instead of making the assertion without anything at all to back it up.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: mycot] * 1
    #27783045 - 05/18/22 02:03 PM (2 years, 1 day ago)

The Democrats are further to the right than Hitler, and the Republicans a bit further out.

To puppets on the hands of the real owners of the country, the Oligarchy.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: mycot]
    #27783607 - 05/18/22 09:49 PM (2 years, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

mycot said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Every conservative says some version of this.




Stop projecting shit.
If you want to call me conservative, then you are going to have to explain what makes you believe that, instead of making the assertion without anything at all to back it up.




I’m making an assumption. Go ahead and tell us all your political beliefs so we can clear this up.

I’m not projecting at all, either, I’m sure everyone who posts here could tell you what my political beliefs are. :lol:


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Asante]
    #27783608 - 05/18/22 09:50 PM (2 years, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
The Democrats are further to the right than Hitler, and the Republicans a bit further out.





Curious what you’re basing this claim on.


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Offlinemycot
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27783728 - 05/19/22 01:09 AM (2 years, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
The Democrats are further to the right than Hitler, and the Republicans a bit further out.

To puppets on the hands of the real owners of the country, the Oligarchy.




With some minor qualification, I fully agree.


Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I’m making an assumption.




Fair enough. I did however make one post that declared in a round about way that your assumption was incorrect.
Assumptions are very often incorrect and because of this do not provide a good basis in debate.
I figure that you of all people understands this. One can split hairs but you understand what I mean.

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Invisibledonwats
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27783793 - 05/19/22 04:24 AM (2 years, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I tried this once with a “explain your political beliefs” thread, and not a single conservative responded lol. Don’t take it personally they just can’t explain themselves.




Maybe no conservative's care to respond to leftist crazies. I mean whats the point? Most of the leftist i know have been in the system there entire lives and know nothing else. They are either getting a free ride or work for the gov programs that manage those freeloaders. People on the right have jobs and work for a living and dont care to participant nor do we want to pay for them programs.

Get a fucking job and pay your own way threw life is what the people on the right are saying.

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InvisibleHartford
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: mycot]
    #27783801 - 05/19/22 04:40 AM (2 years, 13 hours ago)

I'm a right winger who is happy to explain the truth to you.

The hierarchy, at the top, is composed of the intellgencia, or the thinkers that live in harmony with nature. They are the most powerful even though their ideas are often socially repugnant to the masses.

Bellow them, cultures which live in harmony with nature, like the Amish, who by sheer obedience to conservatism rather than intellectual discourse, have come to retain power.

Below them, social conservatives, who don't live in harmony with nature but do seek social harmony with regards to the nuclear family, also usually retaining strength through religions adherence.

Below them, people whose worldview is neither harmonious with nature nor conducive to the harmony of the nuclear family, anarchists.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27783881 - 05/19/22 06:23 AM (2 years, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Asante said:
The Democrats are further to the right than Hitler, and the Republicans a bit further out.





Curious what you’re basing this claim on.





There is talk that is surprisingly like full-on socialism in the Dem party and an talk of full on ethnic cleansing fascism in the Rep party., but factually the actual policies the parties put out are all in the upper right quadrant of the political compass, and not that far apart either.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27783884 - 05/19/22 06:24 AM (2 years, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:

The hierarchy, at the top, is composed of the intellgencia, or the thinkers that live in harmony with nature..





Can you name 10 so I can get an idea?


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Edited by Asante (05/19/22 06:25 AM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: mycot]
    #27783905 - 05/19/22 06:45 AM (2 years, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Asante said:
The Democrats are further to the right than Hitler, and the Republicans a bit further out.





Curious what you’re basing this claim on.





There is talk that is surprisingly like full-on socialism in the Dem party and an talk of full on ethnic cleansing fascism in the Rep party., but factually the actual policies the parties put out are all in the upper right quadrant of the political compass, and not that far apart either.




That I agree with, but I’m not sure either are to the right of the embodiment of fascism: Adolf Hitler.

Quote:

mycot said:
Quote:

Asante said:
The Democrats are further to the right than Hitler, and the Republicans a bit further out.

To puppets on the hands of the real owners of the country, the Oligarchy.




With some minor qualification, I fully agree.


Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I’m making an assumption.




Fair enough. I did however make one post that declared in a round about way that your assumption was incorrect.
Assumptions are very often incorrect and because of this do not provide a good basis in debate.
I figure that you of all people understands this. One can split hairs but you understand what I mean.




Sure sure, yeah, but you still haven’t explained your beliefs and I’m beginning to wonder why.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27783926 - 05/19/22 07:08 AM (2 years, 10 hours ago)

Far right an far left people are both dangerous extremist.

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InvisibleHartford
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27783945 - 05/19/22 07:34 AM (2 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Far right an far left people are both dangerous extremist.




What's dangerous about an Amish person?

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InvisibleHartford
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Asante]
    #27783956 - 05/19/22 07:40 AM (2 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

Hartford said:

The hierarchy, at the top, is composed of the intellgencia, or the thinkers that live in harmony with nature..





Can you name 10 so I can get an idea?




It's difficult to tell who actually is living in harmony with nature, but Gretta Thundberg, John Kerry and Alan Rockefeller come to mind.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27783972 - 05/19/22 07:57 AM (2 years, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Far right an far left people are both dangerous extremist.




I consider libertarians like Ron Paul further right then conservatives. Is he dangerous?

Its been all one party for 30-40+ years.. bush, cheney, romney, mccain.. all the rinos.. are no better or worse then the libtards because its all one system playing both sides.. Its all a big puppet show and thats all it is.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27784005 - 05/19/22 08:38 AM (2 years, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Far right an far left people are both dangerous extremist.




What's dangerous about an Amish person?


they have extremist ideas.

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: donwats]
    #27784009 - 05/19/22 08:45 AM (2 years, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

donwats said:
Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Far right an far left people are both dangerous extremist.




I consider libertarians like Ron Paul further right then conservatives. Is he dangerous?

Its been all one party for 30-40+ years.. bush, cheney, romney, mccain.. all the rinos.. are no better or worse then the libtards because its all one system playing both sides.. Its all a big puppet show and thats all it is.


yes if i was joe biden id have the ATF an FBI rounding there asses up.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: mycot] * 1
    #27784077 - 05/19/22 09:57 AM (2 years, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Sure sure, yeah, but you still haven’t explained your beliefs and I’m beginning to wonder why.




Quote:

mycot said:
To clarify my political position may be best described as anarchist and since there is no such thing as right-wing anarchism (despite opinions to the contrary) I could also be described as a lefty.




A comma after the word clarify and perhaps "may be best described as anarchist" being underlined may be an improvement but I take this to have been adequate to answer your question on a basic level.

You want more nuance ?
Among anarchists I like.
Robert Anton Wilson - all his stuff excellent.
Hakim Bey aka Peter Lamborn Wilson - Like the majority of his work.
Bob Black's Essay "The Abolition of work" - cool
These guys are well known American anarchists.
Noam Chomsky - Although I think some of his work is OK, I'm not too keen on him, He's spent far too much time locked into the institution of academia.

Main thought to take away is that Anarchism is against all forms of oppression.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27784084 - 05/19/22 10:07 AM (2 years, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Quote:

Hartford said:
Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Far right an far left people are both dangerous extremist.




What's dangerous about an Amish person?


they have extremist ideas.



The most extreme idea they have is shunning. I don't consider shunning people dangerous. Know what I mean?

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27784090 - 05/19/22 10:15 AM (2 years, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Quote:

Hartford said:
Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
Far right an far left people are both dangerous extremist.




What's dangerous about an Amish person?


they have extremist ideas.



The most extreme idea they have is shunning. I don't consider shunning people dangerous. Know what I mean?


i know im just fucking around l0l some one has to stir the pot once in a while.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: mycot]
    #27784141 - 05/19/22 11:03 AM (2 years, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

mycot said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Sure sure, yeah, but you still haven’t explained your beliefs and I’m beginning to wonder why.




Quote:

mycot said:
To clarify my political position may be best described as anarchist and since there is no such thing as right-wing anarchism (despite opinions to the contrary) I could also be described as a lefty.




A comma after the word clarify and perhaps "may be best described as anarchist" being underlined may be an improvement but I take this to have been adequate to answer your question on a basic level.

You want more nuance ?
Among anarchists I like.
Robert Anton Wilson - all his stuff excellent.
Hakim Bey aka Peter Lamborn Wilson - Like the majority of his work.
Bob Black's Essay "The Abolition of work" - cool
These guys are well known American anarchists.
Noam Chomsky - Although I think some of his work is OK, I'm not too keen on him, He's spent far too much time locked into the institution of academia.

Main thought to take away is that Anarchism is against all forms of oppression.




Thank you. I wasn’t sure whether you identified as an ‘anarcho capitalist.’


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #27784145 - 05/19/22 11:06 AM (2 years, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
I'm a right winger who is happy to explain the truth to you.

The hierarchy, at the top, is composed of the intellgencia, or the thinkers that live in harmony with nature. They are the most powerful even though their ideas are often socially repugnant to the masses.

Bellow them, cultures which live in harmony with nature, like the Amish, who by sheer obedience to conservatism rather than intellectual discourse, have come to retain power.

Below them, social conservatives, who don't live in harmony with nature but do seek social harmony with regards to the nuclear family, also usually retaining strength through religions adherence.

Below them, people whose worldview is neither harmonious with nature nor conducive to the harmony of the nuclear family, anarchists.



Interesting description, but not an explanation…and, frankly, after 60+ years of following US politics/political demographic shifts (and having been all over the spectrum myself), I don’t think it stacks up at all:  ‘intelligentsia’ of the ‘right’ being most powerful & in harmony w/ nature, for example.

Some representative examples from each identified slice would be very helpful in following your train of thought.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Cranial Feature]
    #27784239 - 05/19/22 12:40 PM (2 years, 5 hours ago)

Basically, the truth will rule the day, and  right wingers are more down to earth.

Let me explain it: the more sustainable a culture is, the more powerful they will be and the more intelligent they are, the more influence they will have.

Leftwingers are not only bitches, they don't reproduce, therefore they don't have the future, they're very ideologically disorganized, they are driven by the whims of human sentiment and are thereforevery wasteful...the only thing they have going for them is environmentalism, which is why some are at the top of the hierarchy.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #27784450 - 05/19/22 02:58 PM (2 years, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Thank you. I wasn’t sure whether you identified as an ‘anarcho capitalist.’




Anarcho-capitalism = BS
Here's one critique from a great resource - theanarchistlibrary.org for innumerable anarchist articles downloadable in pdf format.

Anarcho-Hucksters: There is Nothing Anarchistic about Capitalism

Edited by mycot (05/19/22 05:18 PM)

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: mycot] * 1
    #27784638 - 05/19/22 05:16 PM (2 years, 50 minutes ago)

Knocking down ayncaps... Puffing up the anarchist library...

A human after my own heart!


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (05/19/22 06:14 PM)

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27784787 - 05/19/22 07:02 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

:toast:

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #27785212 - 05/20/22 03:40 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
right wingers are more down to earth.






The Republican party is currently in orbit around another planet in another solar system. Down to earth?


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Asante]
    #27785217 - 05/20/22 04:00 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

Hartford said:
right wingers are more down to earth.






The Republican party is currently in orbit around another planet in another solar system. Down to earth?



How do you figure?

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27785218 - 05/20/22 04:03 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Do you consider the alt right cult around Trump "down to earth"?

Do you consider the Jan 6 insurrection "down to earth"?

If you do "down to earth" to you means "sunk to a new low" and not "more in touch with the factual state of things"


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27785225 - 05/20/22 04:26 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

Hartford said:

The hierarchy, at the top, is composed of the intellgencia, or the thinkers that live in harmony with nature..





Can you name 10 so I can get an idea?




It's difficult to tell who actually is living in harmony with nature, but Gretta Thundberg, John Kerry and Alan Rockefeller come to mind.




So if you're a right winger, how come you don't like anyone who's right wing?


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27785314 - 05/20/22 06:54 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Alan Rockefeller lmao


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Asante]
    #27785351 - 05/20/22 07:40 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Hartford said:
Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

Hartford said:

The hierarchy, at the top, is composed of the intellgencia, or the thinkers that live in harmony with nature..





Can you name 10 so I can get an idea?




It's difficult to tell who actually is living in harmony with nature, but Gretta Thundberg, John Kerry and Alan Rockefeller come to mind.




So if you're a right winger, how come you don't like anyone who's right wing?



Quote:

Asante said:
Do you consider the alt right cult around Trump "down to earth"?

Do you consider the Jan 6 insurrection "down to earth"?

If you do "down to earth" to you means "sunk to a new low" and not "more in touch with the factual state of things"




It's the fiscal conservatism that I appreciate most. Thoughtfulness is good, too

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27785368 - 05/20/22 08:15 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

But there are no (to my knowledge) fiscal conservatives on your list. I don't know Alan Rockefeller's that well, but I don't think he had much in common with the other Rockefeller's. But he did pick a great Shroomery name.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27785372 - 05/20/22 08:21 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:

So if you're a right winger, how come you don't like anyone who's right wing?





The's the top of his own pyramid :egyptian:


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #27785379 - 05/20/22 08:39 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
I'm a right winger who is happy to explain the truth to you.

The hierarchy, at the top, is composed of the intellgencia, or the thinkers that live in harmony with nature. They are the most powerful even though their ideas are often socially repugnant to the masses.

Bellow them, cultures which live in harmony with nature, like the Amish, who by sheer obedience to conservatism rather than intellectual discourse, have come to retain power.

Below them, social conservatives, who don't live in harmony with nature but do seek social harmony with regards to the nuclear family, also usually retaining strength through religions adherence.

Below them, people whose worldview is neither harmonious with nature nor conducive to the harmony of the nuclear family, anarchists.




:hahthatsrich:

Holy shit. Thank god the truth explainer has logged on to dispense wisdom from on high, lmao.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #27785407 - 05/20/22 09:08 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

“Hah, I’d be happy to explain our beliefs, not sure why everyone else refuses”

*the most casually fascist shit you’ve ever seen*


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27785475 - 05/20/22 10:13 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Environmentalism is a liberal phenomenon, only because Christianity has subverted the culture, but as Christianity comes down, you'll see more right-wing environmentalists.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #27785505 - 05/20/22 10:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Basically, the truth will rule the day, and  right wingers are more down to earth.

Let me explain it: the more sustainable a culture is, the more powerful they will be and the more intelligent they are, the more influence they will have.

Leftwingers are not only bitches, they don't reproduce, therefore they don't have the future, they're very ideologically disorganized, they are driven by the whims of human sentiment and are thereforevery wasteful...the only thing they have going for them is environmentalism, which is why some are at the top of the hierarchy.


i think both sides have there super chill people an the crazy fucks. Im more right wing but there are things on the left i do agree with not one side is better than the other.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27785508 - 05/20/22 10:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Christianity is inherently environmentalist.

God has given us the earth with the expectation that we will be good stewards of the earth and all that lives upon it.

Liberals sell plastic wristbands that show that you planted a tree and conservatives work to abolish all industrial emission limits and return to coal. Next stop is putting the lead back in gasoline to increase the Republican voter base.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27785561 - 05/20/22 11:17 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Environmentalism is a liberal phenomenon, only because Christianity has subverted the culture, but as Christianity comes down, you'll see more right-wing environmentalists.



Holy shit this is the funniest thing I have ever heard.

After-Post Edit: I do not intend to denigrate the influence that religious beliefs can have on environmental policy. But if you look at history, American Christians were environmental until, I want to say the 70s? Then the Republican rhetoric finally washed that out and the Republican rhetoric influenced Christianity(American Christianity, as a general monolith) to be less environmental. Not the other way around. I will try to find proof for this later. Maybe.

I was beginning to think Hartford was a relatively smart guy on the forums, but dang this is Looney Tunes level. :lolsy:

Modern industrialisation has created a system that will ALWAYS be cheaper if the maker is less environmentally friendly.

Burning fuel for electricity? To filter it or to not? Costs a shitload to do so... Cue Republican rhetoric about regulation increasing costs.... And Republicans are not environmentally friendly.

Making pharmaceuticals? Always cheaper to dump the waste into the ocean than create regulation that remediates those poisons.... And cue the talk or regulation. Republicans are not environmentally friendly.

Recycling plastic and other shit? Cheaper to throw the aluminum away until the cost of aluminum/plastic/etc increases enough to incentivize us to do so. Until then.... The landfill it is! Wait... What states have the tax on cans that is given back when you recycle them? Oh right... Not Republican ones.

My final after-post edit: (((We can keep going forever, too! When you change your own oil, is it easier to dump the oil right there in your yard/sink/etc, or make another trip back to the parts store to recycle it?

Etc ad infinitum)))



Holy shit I get how disgusting the left is now... But we cant just make shit up...:shakeface:

Privitize profits, socialize losses!


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Edited by metalfaith (05/20/22 12:07 PM)

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27785662 - 05/20/22 12:28 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Environmentalism is a liberal phenomenon, only because Christianity has subverted the culture, but as Christianity comes down, you'll see more right-wing environmentalists.




Pretty sure capitalism (the idea to produce as much as possible on a planet with finite resources) is what’s holding back environmentalism, and not the religious doctrine based on the idea that man has dominion over the planet and has a duty to defend/protect it.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27785677 - 05/20/22 12:40 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Christians see God's command to fill the earth and subdue it as a spiritual commission to spead the gospel, which says that the Antichrist will take over and the apocalypse will ruin the earth. Not much incentive to clean things up.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27785681 - 05/20/22 12:43 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

As opposed to other republicans, at the forefront of environmentalist activism.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27785733 - 05/20/22 01:12 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Christians see God's command to fill the earth and subdue it as a spiritual commission to spead the gospel, which says that the Antichrist will take over and the apocalypse will ruin the earth. Not much incentive to clean things up.




I don’t think many Christians believed in a literal version of Revelations after, say, the Industrial Revolution. Point taken though.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #27785734 - 05/20/22 01:12 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Christians see God's command to fill the earth and subdue it as a spiritual commission to spead the gospel, which says that the Antichrist will take over and the apocalypse will ruin the earth. Not much incentive to clean things up.



I am a Christian and am pretty much, regrettably, entirely surrounded(in my social group) by people who are lifetime Republicans that voted Trump. I know this firsthand.. Unfortunately that is the above quoted line is one that I've heard parroted several times. Problem is it is just that, parroting what they heard.

Do a small bit of research on how American Christians have interacted with politics in the last 50 years.

Just a bit of research to verify or validate your opinions would show that, while that argument seems persuasive, it is no different than the previous Biblical argument used: God created. The Earth and specifically instructed us to steward and care for the earth.

And then you can easily see, as the Bible says, people are simply sheep. Has nothing to do with Christianity, per se, but more to do with the Nature of Humanity and how easily persuaded we are.

And understanding how and when that happened in the USA will show what I have already said:

Republican Propaganda/The Republican Party swallowed American Christianity and it's perspective on environmentalismNOT the other way around.


But none of that has any relevance to this stand-alone argument, that super surprisingly, was completely ignored:

(Not Capitalism per se, IMO, as Ecstatic said) Industrialism without proper and appropriate regulation ALWAYS(or 95-99% or whatever) makes it cheaper to produce products that directly harms the environment, rather than spend money remediate the waste/recycle/etc.

But as we know, you can't reason someone out of a conclusion they didn't reason themselvea into. :shrug::cookiemonster::elmo:


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Edited by metalfaith (05/20/22 01:13 PM)

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: metalfaith]
    #27793418 - 05/26/22 08:30 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

metalfaith said:
Quote:

Hartford said:
Environmentalism is a liberal phenomenon, only because Christianity has subverted the culture, but as Christianity comes down, you'll see more right-wing environmentalists.



Holy shit this is the funniest thing I have ever heard.

After-Post Edit: I do not intend to denigrate the influence that religious beliefs can have on environmental policy. But if you look at history, American Christians were environmental until, I want to say the 70s? Then the Republican rhetoric finally washed that out and the Republican rhetoric influenced Christianity(American Christianity, as a general monolith) to be less environmental. Not the other way around. I will try to find proof for this later. Maybe.

I was beginning to think Hartford was a relatively smart guy on the forums, but dang this is Looney Tunes level. :lolsy:

Modern industrialisation has created a system that will ALWAYS be cheaper if the maker is less environmentally friendly.

Burning fuel for electricity? To filter it or to not? Costs a shitload to do so... Cue Republican rhetoric about regulation increasing costs.... And Republicans are not environmentally friendly.

Making pharmaceuticals? Always cheaper to dump the waste into the ocean than create regulation that remediates those poisons.... And cue the talk or regulation. Republicans are not environmentally friendly.

Recycling plastic and other shit? Cheaper to throw the aluminum away until the cost of aluminum/plastic/etc increases enough to incentivize us to do so. Until then.... The landfill it is! Wait... What states have the tax on cans that is given back when you recycle them? Oh right... Not Republican ones.

My final after-post edit: (((We can keep going forever, too! When you change your own oil, is it easier to dump the oil right there in your yard/sink/etc, or make another trip back to the parts store to recycle it?

Etc ad infinitum)))



Holy shit I get how disgusting the left is now... But we cant just make shit up...:shakeface:

Privitize profits, socialize losses!




At this point, it's becoming cheaper to be environmentally friendly. The US government heavily subsidizes oil to ensure that it is competitive with renewable alternatives.

Similarly, industrial dumping is becoming more expensive than reselling waste as feedstock for other industrial processes. One man's waste is another man's treasure is becoming much more true. Literally all the way down to shit. Due to the demand for fertilizer, sewage services can often turn a profit selling human shit.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27793496 - 05/26/22 09:37 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:

Christians see God's command to fill the earth and subdue it as a spiritual commission to spead the gospel, which says that the Antichrist will take over and the apocalypse will ruin the earth. Not much incentive to clean things up.




There are wacky nutcases on both sides of the aisle, but I've never heard any of my conservative voting friends speak of any notion like this. As a teenager, it was my liberal Christain friends who insisted that Ronald Wilson Reagan (666) was the Antichrist and that the apocalypse was very close at hand.

For decades the Democrats have been saying the end of the world is near. They love gloom and doom!

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27793818 - 05/26/22 02:44 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:

At this point, it's becoming cheaper to be environmentally friendly. The US government heavily subsidizes oil to ensure that it is competitive with renewable alternatives.

Similarly, industrial dumping is becoming more expensive than reselling waste as feedstock for other industrial processes. One man's waste is another man's treasure is becoming much more true. Literally all the way down to shit. Due to the demand for fertilizer, sewage services can often turn a profit selling human shit.




Care to elaborate where in the USA that is happening with plastic?

That certainly naturally happens in many markets but I don't see how that could do what is necessary without constantly evolving regulation... Of which the Right is pretty much constantly shitting on.

These incentive system exist because the government creates them in the first place. Therefore it only makes sense that the government can and must change the rules within them.

Edits for clarity.. Also i said the left is constantly shitting on regulation. Hopefully it was obvious the only party shitting on regulation non-stop is the Right.


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Edited by metalfaith (05/26/22 06:29 PM)

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Hartford]
    #27793863 - 05/26/22 03:32 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)



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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: metalfaith]
    #27794129 - 05/26/22 06:10 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

metalfaith said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:

At this point, it's becoming cheaper to be environmentally friendly. The US government heavily subsidizes oil to ensure that it is competitive with renewable alternatives.

Similarly, industrial dumping is becoming more expensive than reselling waste as feedstock for other industrial processes. One man's waste is another man's treasure is becoming much more true. Literally all the way down to shit. Due to the demand for fertilizer, sewage services can often turn a profit selling human shit.




Care to elaborate where in the USA that is happening with plastic?

That certainly naturally happens in many markets but I don't see how that could without constantly evolving regulation... Of which the left is pretty much constantly shitting on.

These incentive system exist because the government creates them in the first place. Therefore it only makes sense that the government can and must change the rules within them.




For plastic specifically? Here

You are absolutely correct that regulation is still the primary driver of innovation in many industries. But not all.

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27794178 - 05/26/22 06:39 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Plastic still seems to be the largest waste resource we are creating that is quite obviously not renewable... At least in the good ol USA...


That was the only reason I used it.. Widespread  and obvious.


I figured we'd end up agreeing in the end. I was simply misunderstanding your intent.


Listen, I hope to God the market solves nearly all problems. Government is a much less efficient solution. I don't think anyone on the Left or Right would disagree with that.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: metalfaith]
    #27794231 - 05/26/22 07:21 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Gov't is generally less efficient at directing resources to the people with the most money to spend than markets but I think it's less clear as to whether or not that outcome is desirable.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27794582 - 05/27/22 01:55 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Gov't is generally less efficient at directing resources to the people with the most money to spend than markets but I think it's less clear as to whether or not that outcome is desirable.



Agreed.

Hence why I would love if the market could solve all problems.. But the reality is that the incentive systems of the market don't always align... And can often be quite contradictory.

I.e. slavery.  Not a solution the market ever could solve... Because it doesn't have a "moral eye".

And I think one of the major differences between the left and the right at this point are admitting the limitations of the market..
Then the Right nearly worshipping the Market.


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Edited by metalfaith (05/27/22 01:57 AM)

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: metalfaith]
    #27794718 - 05/27/22 06:12 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Neither Adam Smith's mechanisms of the market or Karl Marx's predictions of where those failures would lead to is playing out. The Keynesian toolkit worked OK in the Depression but not later.  Our system can't even make a small dent in the ever increasing concentration of wealth at the top. We have a tournament, winner take all, economic system and somehow a majority is buying into it.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27794792 - 05/27/22 07:33 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Hmm. I guess I haven't read all of Marx, but didn't he say that we'd have a large class of underemployed people perpetually living in poverty, used as a threat against the employed but underpaid, while a few individuals collected dynastic wealth?

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Kryptos]
    #27794820 - 05/27/22 08:13 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Marx didn't concentrate or think favorably about the lowest rung that he called the lumpen proletariat. He thought they were a negative force in achieving socialism. The agent of change was the perpetually employed proletariat who would become class conscious and then organize in their class interest.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenproletariat

Your remarks made sense, but I think fit better with non-Marxist economic theory.


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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27794936 - 05/27/22 10:32 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I mean, we have that, just not exactly in the same sense that Marx predicted. Partly due to the conflation of social and economic classes. Partly because Marx did not accurately predict racial relations in the US.

If we get rid of all nonwhite people, then the lumpenproletariat (and the lowest rung) will largely consist of rural white folk, who are conveniently the biggest defenders of capitalism right now. Well. Sort of. They talk a lot about the failures of capitalism, but they vote pretty consistently in favor of exploitation.

Something about convincing the lowest white man they're better than the black man and picking their pockets comes to mind. It's the same thing, just that capitalism has evolved to add a socially-enforced class of economic cannon fodder to protect the lower flank. Which is running out.

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