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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,488
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: metalfaith]
#27794231 - 05/26/22 07:21 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Gov't is generally less efficient at directing resources to the people with the most money to spend than markets but I think it's less clear as to whether or not that outcome is desirable.
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metalfaith
Moron



Registered: 03/30/11
Posts: 1,842
Loc: FL
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: ballsalsa]
#27794582 - 05/27/22 01:55 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: Gov't is generally less efficient at directing resources to the people with the most money to spend than markets but I think it's less clear as to whether or not that outcome is desirable.
Agreed.
Hence why I would love if the market could solve all problems.. But the reality is that the incentive systems of the market don't always align... And can often be quite contradictory.
I.e. slavery. Not a solution the market ever could solve... Because it doesn't have a "moral eye".
And I think one of the major differences between the left and the right at this point are admitting the limitations of the market.. Then the Right nearly worshipping the Market.
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Edited by metalfaith (05/27/22 01:57 AM)
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Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: metalfaith]
#27794718 - 05/27/22 06:12 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Neither Adam Smith's mechanisms of the market or Karl Marx's predictions of where those failures would lead to is playing out. The Keynesian toolkit worked OK in the Depression but not later. Our system can't even make a small dent in the ever increasing concentration of wealth at the top. We have a tournament, winner take all, economic system and somehow a majority is buying into it.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Brian Jones]
#27794792 - 05/27/22 07:33 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Hmm. I guess I haven't read all of Marx, but didn't he say that we'd have a large class of underemployed people perpetually living in poverty, used as a threat against the employed but underpaid, while a few individuals collected dynastic wealth?
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Kryptos]
#27794820 - 05/27/22 08:13 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Marx didn't concentrate or think favorably about the lowest rung that he called the lumpen proletariat. He thought they were a negative force in achieving socialism. The agent of change was the perpetually employed proletariat who would become class conscious and then organize in their class interest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenproletariat
Your remarks made sense, but I think fit better with non-Marxist economic theory.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: Rightwingers: which Hierarchies do you hold Self Evident? [Re: Brian Jones]
#27794936 - 05/27/22 10:32 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I mean, we have that, just not exactly in the same sense that Marx predicted. Partly due to the conflation of social and economic classes. Partly because Marx did not accurately predict racial relations in the US.
If we get rid of all nonwhite people, then the lumpenproletariat (and the lowest rung) will largely consist of rural white folk, who are conveniently the biggest defenders of capitalism right now. Well. Sort of. They talk a lot about the failures of capitalism, but they vote pretty consistently in favor of exploitation.
Something about convincing the lowest white man they're better than the black man and picking their pockets comes to mind. It's the same thing, just that capitalism has evolved to add a socially-enforced class of economic cannon fodder to protect the lower flank. Which is running out.
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