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 laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
i guess you also don't like my suggestion that objective is just the facts that can be observed (i.e. objectively)
I'm not sure why you choose to take one of my posts here personally.
The original post said:
"I'm sure this topic may have been talked to death at one point previously so I just have this question.
In your daily life, do you consider yourself more objective or subjective?"
Of course the usual definition is "objective is just the facts that can be observed " just as you say, RGV.
but also
Humans don't see atoms and quarks, or sense radio waves, etc. in the air and space around them for example,
so from that point of view, we must acknowledge that all experience is a simulation constructed (probably a little differently) by (each) (or the) brain.
Anyway, the original question really just rests on a couple of words, and is not a deep question. Those words are:
"do you consider yourself more objective or subjective?"
if we change them to:
do you FEEL yourself [to be] more objective or subjective?
It becomes more obvious that it is just a question about personality, and how we [SUBJECTIVELY] feel about ourselves,
that only requires a one sentence answer from each person, and that therefore there is really nothing to discuss or argue about.
Again if we use other synonyms it becomes even more obvious that it is only a question about personality - as follows:
"do you consider yourself [to be] more rational or emotional?"
and not a question about either philosophy, religion, or science.
Edited by laughingdog (05/31/22 11:06 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,171
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 Re: Objectivity vs. Subjectivity  [Re: laughingdog]
#27800151 - 05/31/22 11:09 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I think and feel myself to be very very subjective and only a tiny bit objective.
this gets me into a lot of trouble.
When you shift scale of reality, which is realistic to do, all the way down to cells and organelles, then reality looks different and there are different considerations that matter realistically, and when you shift down to atoms and molecules again that objectivity has different concerns, although, a collection of 100 micrograms of lsd becomes significant at our quotidian granularity .
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r3volution.gurl
Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,320
Loc: Canada 
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Re: Objectivity vs. Subjectivity [Re: laughingdog]
#27800186 - 05/31/22 11:30 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
i guess you also don't like my suggestion that objective is just the facts that can be observed (i.e. objectively)
I'm not sure why you choose to take one of my posts here personally.
The original post said:
"I'm sure this topic may have been talked to death at one point previously so I just have this question.
In your daily life, do you consider yourself more objective or subjective?"
Of course the usual definition is "objective is just the facts that can be observed " just as you say, RGV.
but also
Humans don't see atoms and quarks, or sense radio waves, etc. in the air and space around them for example,
so from that point of view, we must acknowledge that all experience is a simulation constructed (probably a little differently) by (each) (or the) brain.
Anyway, the original question really just rests on a couple of words, and is not a deep question. Those words are:
"do you consider yourself more objective or subjective?"
if we change them to:
do you FEEL yourself [to be] more objective or subjective?
It becomes more obvious that it is just a question about personality, and how we [SUBJECTIVELY] feel about ourselves,
that only requires a one sentence answer from each person, and that therefore there is really nothing to discuss or argue about.
Again if we use other synonyms it becomes even more obvious that it is only a question about personality - as follows:
"do you consider yourself [to be] more rational or emotional?"
and not a question about either philosophy, religion, or science.
I get what you're saying, but subjectivity can be rational because it really depends on the individual so that's where you kind of lost me.
The point of the question was more in regards to how people handle themselves and situations on a day to day basis, it's still philosophical because it's not something we can necessarily prove with numbers or evidence.
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"Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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the funny thing is that when you watch people argue in real life, often the more emotional they get, the more convinced they are, that they are, not only rational, but also that they are more rational (than the other person).
From this example, which we have all often seen and heard, we can extrapolate, that self deception is such a large part of human nature, that the question almost seems aimed at poking fun at anyone who takes themselves seriously.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,171
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Re: Objectivity vs. Subjectivity [Re: laughingdog]
#27800256 - 05/31/22 12:15 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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you mean defensive behaviour,
having detected an intrusion or threat of one, the feral beast begins to snarl.
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r3volution.gurl
Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,320
Loc: Canada
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Re: Objectivity vs. Subjectivity [Re: laughingdog]
#27800260 - 05/31/22 12:17 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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So you're stating emotions can never be rational?
From my experience, some people's emotions are rational, given they express them in a rational sense though.
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"Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,171
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rational is just a style, emotional is a state of mind fueled with natural/hormonal psychedelics and stimulants.
either of them can be well inspired or out to lunch.
have you never heard a rational person who is totally full of it?
I have found that 50% of the time. Even mannered stylistic applied to very bad politics for example. seems rational but potentially racist, xenophobic, antivax, antiabortion etc.
I don't mean all republicans, just the ones that are putting themselves out there.
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r3volution.gurl
Registered: 10/20/21
Posts: 6,320
Loc: Canada
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I understand and agree, I'm just speaking in response to rational being objectivity and emotional being subjectivity as explained by laughingdog.
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"Souls love. That’s what souls do. Egos don’t, but souls do. Become a soul, look around, and you’ll be amazed-all the beings around you are souls." -Ram Dass
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,171
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we can all be friends but you have to go with what you think, not what your friend thinks you should think.
in newspaper parlance which is pretty sloppy yes you will find the usage of "rational being objectivity and emotional being subjectivity".
no wonder some people think that being logical (like Spock) is rational and not emotional. (Even though he was emotional but suppressed which is questionable rather than well thought out (how I use rational)).
lots of times I don't seem to make sense here, but thinking things through can be an effort, we cannot rely on the supposed writings of people who died thousands of years ago to put it all together for us. Things have changed a lot, and our understanding of human nature itself has progressed enough to have to rethink everything.
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Quote:
r3volution.gurl said:
So you're stating emotions can never be rational?
From my experience, some people's emotions are rational, given they express them in a rational sense though.
No, you oversimplify, of course emotions can be appropriate,
in fact they are 'designed' to be,
and they are 'designed' to be quicker than deliberative rational thought.
A couple images/ examples should make it clear.
consider the image of a chess player, deliberating...
vs the fight or flight response
mediated by adrenalin
upon seeing a lion sneaking up
So it's not that evolution didn't allow the development of emotions because they are irrational. But on the contrary they are faster than reason, and when triggered appropriately save lives.
On the other hand, when they occur inappropriately, as signified by the words 'hysteria', chronic anxiety, phobia, and so on, for example, it is a quite different matter.
Trying to simplify such complex matters may lead to more confusion than clarity. Therefor I won't go into further explanations as regards self deception, emotion, & reason; when the already given example above, spoke quite clearly for itself.
Hurry, impatience, and irritability, are all examples of more subtle emotions that often go undetected, by the affected.
Similarly, studies have shown that, simply having had a good lunch, leads to more lenient behavior on the part of judges.
If this fact doesn't lead to a common sense and humorous view of human nature, I don't know what might.
Edited by laughingdog (05/31/22 03:30 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,171
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Re: Objectivity vs. Subjectivity [Re: laughingdog]
#27800526 - 05/31/22 03:33 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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designed?
why using that term, are you assuming we are designed instead of evolved.
I am such a language cop today.
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
designed?
why using that term, are you assuming we are designed instead of evolved.
I am such a language cop today.
indeed you outdo yourself, there is a reason those words are in quotes above
if I intended to write a book, perhaps I should hire you as an editor, so no rabid evolutionists, mistake me for a complete idiot.
Perhaps I should have kept the image, of Jesus riding the dinosaur in my signature?
Along with the painting of folks burying their heads in the sand?
To keep you happy.
But the website messed me up.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi
Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,626
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
designed?
why using that term, are you assuming we are designed instead of evolved.
I am such a language cop today.
It was “designed” to trigger you 
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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,171
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boom!
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 BrendanFlock
Stranger
Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,368
Last seen: 2 hours, 51 minutes
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So objectivity is what exists..
Objectivity is meaning and interaction..
Objectivity is the law.. moral, mental, and physical..
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,171
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Re: Objectivity vs. Subjectivity [Re: BrendanFlock]
#27801125 - 06/01/22 04:36 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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it is just what can be observed
the rest of your list is subjective, i.e. objects of interpretation
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rawe
The Sun
Registered: 05/21/22
Posts: 106
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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everything can be timed almost, the sun is blue on heroin
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Re: Objectivity vs. Subjectivity [Re: BrendanFlock]
#27801596 - 06/01/22 03:08 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
So objectivity is what exists..
Objectivity is meaning and interaction..
Objectivity is the law.. moral, mental, and physical..
objectivity is a word
what exists is unknown
dxm is a name given to a dissociative analgesic drug,
which effects both motor functions, perceptions, & thought processes, and therefore also beliefs as to what is 'real'.
for a person in a dissociated state to expect to communicate,
with folks in a 'normal' or 'associated' state; or to expect to have a flawless understanding of themselves when they alternate between these 2 states is probably unrealistic.
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