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Kryptos
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What does it mean to be a good person? 2
#27766587 - 05/06/22 09:18 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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I was watching Taxi Driver the other day. It's a great movie.
---SPOILERS--- (for those of you living in the 70s)
Travis Bickle is, fundamentally, a broken person. He's clearly not right to begin with, and more than likely has some PTSD from the Marine Corps. He claims, at one point, to have been dishonorably discharged, but that's in his own voice, so it might not be true. He does have some pretty massive scarring, though, so it is possible that he was wounded out.
Anyway, he's got a goal of cleaning up the city. He sees the filth every day, and he wants to do something about it. Except, he consistently makes the absolute wrong decisions. He allows Iris to be pulled out of his cab. He fixates on Betsy, and for a second date, takes her to a porno theater. After the predictable blowout, he doesn't seem to understand the problem. Fundamentally, he doesn't understand why she would be alarmed and unhappy with a date at a porno theater.
And he blames her for it. He makes a scene at her workplace until security gets called. He obviously wants to connect with her, but can't because of his own fucked up mind. He literally does not understand why she is angry.
Later, he shoots a petty thief. This scene is fairly ambiguous. On one hand, he saved the life of the store clerk...but that is assuming that the life of the store clerk was directly in danger. Stealing and killing are two different things. If he had simply hidden, it is entirely likely that the thief would have just robbed the guy and ran off with the money. Unless you believe that a human life is worth less than a few hundred bucks, Travis overreacted significantly.
He begins to fixate on the politician that Betsy worked for, believing that all politicians are inherently scum and must be dealt with. Considering the framing of the movie, this is not true--Palantine is presented as an objectively good guy who cares about the city. Due to sheer luck, the assassination attempt is thwarted.
So Travis Bickle, who considers himself dead already, does the next best thing. He decides to save Iris, the child prostitute. By murdering her pimps and a customer, right in front of her. A 14 year old traumatized girl. She is clearly significantly affected by this, reduced to sobbing in a corner during the violence.
He is celebrated as a hero, even though he is a vigilante. And he goes back to his life. Based on interviews with the writers/producers, this is not meant to be a dream sequence as Travis dies from his wounds in the pimp's lair, but reality.
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Travis Bickle is broken. He constantly takes matters into his own hands, without recognizing the collateral damage that he inflicts upon society as a whole. He consistently picks the worst possible path forward, because he does not consider the other options. He cannot consider the other options. They simply do not fit with his worldview. At any point, he could have simply called the police and had the actual trained professionals deal with the problem. At the very least, a police response literally could not have ended worse than Travis' rampage.
But he doesn't understand that. He isn't a Bond villain, he isn't an evil person. He just...doesn't consider the possibilities. He is incapable of comprehending that there is a better option. He doesn't consider the fundamentally harmful nature of his actions because he cannot understand that his actions are harmful to himself and to society. The last shot in the movie is basically the first shot in the movie. He hasn't learned anything. Nothing has changed. It's a story played on repeat.
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Travis Bickle wants to be a good, functional person. He wants to do good. He wants to right the wrongs in society, but he cannot because he doesn't understand society. He does bad things as a result. I guess it technically works out for him, but only due to the diligence of the secret service agent that stops him from committing an assassination. Travis doesn't see the difference between killing an objectively good politician and a number of pedo-pimps. He can't. That's not a thing that he can consider. The way his brain works, it doesn't allow him to consider it.
I don't think he even sees other people as people. Just as props. Scenery. Cardboard cutouts in the shape of humans, that consistently react in ways that he simply cannot understand, because he cannot empathize with them.
So what makes a good person? The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Travis got lucky. He happened to kill the right people. Not because that was his goal, but by sheer dumb luck. Does that make him a good person? I don't think so. But he gets fan mail, a pardon, and is treated like a hero. If not for that one secret service agent, he would be John Hinckley Jr.
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phytophilia
symbiote


Registered: 01/08/22
Posts: 53
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Re: What does it mean to be a good person? [Re: Kryptos]
#27766921 - 05/07/22 05:49 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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“Good” person is subjective. Depends on the evaluator’s values (be it one’s self, family, society, etc). What’s “good” from one perspective, at one time, and in one context, isn’t always considered “good” when those conditions change.
EDIT: “Good” is also a vague word in this case. May be more useful to evaluate if a person is “loving,” “helpful,” or “generous.” Those tend to be qualities our society associates with “good” people, and may be more useful if we want to go about this whole judging business.
Edited by phytophilia (05/07/22 05:52 AM)
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Brian Jones
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Re: What does it mean to be a good person? [Re: Kryptos]
#27768480 - 05/08/22 10:50 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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I apologize for not dealing much at all with your topic, but I think a lot about the psychology and motivations of this movie. I think Martin Scorcese was trying to work out a lot of things in his mind at this point, and that makes it difficult to draw conclusions from the movie. The character that he plays when he gets in Travis' cab is as disturbing as Travis' later actions. Peter Boyle's character has maturity and experience, but he's not too successful counseling Travis despite, good intentions. I also see this in the earlier "Mean Streets", when Harvey Keitel's character is always questioning himself. At the time Taxi Driver was made and for several years later, both Scorcese and DeNiro seemed to be totally nervous guys in interviews, not at all comfortable in their own skins. They both seemed to have grown out of it, in around five years. The King of Comedy was also a very nervous movie. Many people see this maturing as a process of people eventually coming up with answers to the questions, they keep asking themselves. I believe in a more physiological explanation. People's nervous systems and hormones slow down with age, and stress becomes more bearable. I don't think Scorcese was much interested in having good characters and bad chararcters, and examining what that meant. Keitel in Mean Streets did try, but didn't get too far with it.
A friend in high school described Taxi Drive as being a Viet Nam movie, which you also picked up on. I also was reminded of the David Bowie movie, The Man Who Fell to Earth. Travis seemed like an alien who had no idea how to act. When I saw it at the theater, I was more uncomfortable in the scene when he took Betsy to the porno movie than when he was killing everyone. He was this low socioeconomic guy who could occaisionally tur on a bit of charm and wit, so he could get a date with a beautiful woman, and then he screwed it up that bad because he seemed lacking in understanding acceptable behavior. I always remembered my reaction to that scene, and actually felt better when Leonardo DeCaprio recently said that scene freaked him out too. I think it's a matter of over empathizing when someone else extremally embarrasses themselves.
I've never been able to figure out if Travis was a psychopath or an antihero. His motivations toward Iris were always decent, despite his methods. I disagree a little with your opinion that the movie ends where it starts and Travis is the same. As you say it was only pure luck that leaves Travis as a hero and not in prison for life. I think he's in a better place at the end. When Sybill Sheperd gets in his cab, he's modest and philosophical and I could see a future where he didn't use violence and maybe could have a normal relationship. Maybe.
Now if you ask me why DeNiro makes so many bad movies in his late career, I have no idea. I know he needs money to pay of exe's but he seldom puts much into a performance.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Kryptos
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Re: What does it mean to be a good person? [Re: Brian Jones]
#27770896 - 05/10/22 08:52 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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I might watch it again this weekend.
I watched nightcrawler right after, which is a much more clear example of a psychopath.
I lean towards Travis being a psychopath. And yes, this is based primarily on the porno theater scene. It is far more uncomfortable than him killing everyone. Though, that may simply be because US media has desensitized us all to violence while sensitizing us to sexual situations.
But at the same time, I would argue that his actions in the porno theater were pretty innocent in comparison to the later violence. Innocent, but probably just as traumatizing to Betsy as to Iris.
It's an interesting question, because you kind of have this combination of how Travis sees events, and how society sees events. Partly supports the idea that some people are fundamentally broken and should be disposed of.
Which when written out like that, seems like a shitty thing. But the same people that think it would be wrong to dispose of defective humans often support death penalty in at least one hypothetical scenario, which is exactly that: disposal of a human deemed defective.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Re: What does it mean to be a good person? [Re: Kryptos]
#27772361 - 05/11/22 07:55 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
What does it mean to be a good person?
A good person is predominantly defined by the good things he does.
A good person goes around doing good works left and right, most often in complete anonymity, not for any sake but to do the good they do, and this good is altruistic in nature.
Personal sacrifice for the good of others.
Not to be thought of or known as good. Not to secure a place in heaven or whatev. To do the good they do.
Not doing evil is not being evil. Not doing good is not being good.
Only by doing good or doing evil is one Good or evil.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Asante
Mage


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Re: What does it mean to be a good person? [Re: Asante]
#27772377 - 05/11/22 08:24 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Oh and moviewise: he wasn't Good.
He did the wrong thing and in such a way that it traumatized the girl he wanted to save.
Its not Good to kill someone, no matter how evil he is.
Even if you shoot hitler in the face at a nazi rally, your act of murder is still upon you. That it prevents many killings he would have orchestrated is on the balance, but it doesnt negate the fact that you have murdered.
My mother was irreversibly dying and my consent was required for the doctors to be legally able to proceed with a form of euthanasia. No matter how much good was done with this humane intervention curbing an irreversible dying process - its still on me. When my heart stops and I slide out of my body into the hereafter, I will still have to atone for my part in that action.
There is no mitigation of something binarily absolute, either you did or didnt, however man may put forth his excuses (..) he shall be witness against himself.
You can't steal from walmart and deny you're a thief because you "stuck it to the man". You may believe that, your friends might too, Destiny doesn't. Destiny has you pocketing that gizmo, eternally.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Kryptos
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Re: What does it mean to be a good person? [Re: Asante]
#27772502 - 05/11/22 10:48 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Well then, what is a good thing? Is there an objective good, or is it entirely in the eye of the beholder?
How much does intent matter?
Travis intends to do good, does bad, and is celebrated as a good guy.
We seem to agree that his actions are, consistently, bad. You even allude to the idea that killing is inherently bad, which I would agree with. But, if his actions are bad regardless of intent or outcome, then there are some universally bad actions. Which leads to some universal statements that might really piss a few people off, for example: Military personnel are inherently bad people because the primary purpose of their job is to kill.
Finally, if the questions is simply the things that you have to atone for...then what about people with a fundamentally different definition of good or bad? Or people that simply cannot care (I think Travis falls into this category)? Again, I do think that Travis ends the movie in the exact same place that it starts. Maybe not in terms of actions, but mentally.
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Asante
Mage


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Posts: 86,795
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Re: What does it mean to be a good person? [Re: Kryptos]
#27780046 - 05/16/22 10:05 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: Well then, what is a good thing? Is there an objective good, or is it entirely in the eye of the beholder?
A good thing is something that serves the greater good, that is where the benefits of the many outweigh the personal gain of the few.
Check it out:

This is a good thing.
So is this:

Here you have people in a somewhat advantaged position using their advantage to benefit the many, and in doing so finding personal fulfillment.
By contrast, whats bad is then obvious, using ones advantage to disadvantage the many, such as the IMF and World Bank having made loans to destitute developing nations that have been repaid three timres over over the years and that keep going on interest alone.
Or the guy who bought the rights to a life saving medication and made it 100x more expensive, without any innovation, because people would have to pay or they die.
In most people, the "good" examples evoke a positive feeling, and the "bad"examples a sense of frustration or aggression.|
Its pretty clear cut.
Of course there are people who see it the other way around, such as Ayn Rand, John Wayne Gacy and Richard our favorite Chaotic Evil villain:
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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