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OfflineBrian Jones
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Give Ireland Back To the Irish * 2
    #27762654 - 05/04/22 10:52 AM (2 years, 15 days ago)

Sinn Fein is projected to win tomorrows election and become the biggest political force in Northern Ireland. This could lead to the unification of Ireland and an end to British rule in the North. Sinn Fein is widely regarded to be the political wing of the Irish Republican Army, although this relationship has never been formalized. They began as a democratic socialist party but evolved somewhat towards the center. In recent decades they have also become a major force in Southern Irish politics.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27762670 - 05/04/22 11:03 AM (2 years, 15 days ago)

This would be a wonderful development.


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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27763098 - 05/04/22 04:10 PM (2 years, 15 days ago)

This would be a disaster for the UK and Ireland. Do these drunk nationalists really think they can stand totally on thier own in a global economy? Seems like they're barely functioning as is.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL] * 3
    #27763123 - 05/04/22 04:36 PM (2 years, 15 days ago)

The Republic of Ireland is part of the EU - not exactly on their own now, eh. I imagine North Ireland will do better as part of the ROI than remaining a pseudo colony to a post-Brexit UK.

And yes, this would be the best possible outcome for achieving a united Ireland - and should be considered a shining example of resolving sectarian conflict and border disputes as democratically as possible. Take note, supporters of Russian military action.


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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27763126 - 05/04/22 04:42 PM (2 years, 15 days ago)

Even the Scottish don't think they can afford it. Im all for ireland having its sovereignty i just think sticking together and being tied at the hip on the island is mutually beneficial :shrug:

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL] * 1
    #27763172 - 05/04/22 05:20 PM (2 years, 15 days ago)

Yes, ideally people and nations continue to work together in cooperation, but didn't the opposite already happen through Brexit? Finding a way to accommodate the isolationism of post-Brexit UK, the open cooperation of the EU, and the special terms of the Belfast Accords has been one of the greatest obstacles preventing a clean Brexit. A united Ireland within the Schengen zone, with a border in the Irish sea, would be a good solution - and the Belfast accords would still allow for the conditions of an English/Irish connection.

A quick contrast between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland shows that the standard of living is higher in the Republic compared to the north - for example, GDP/capita is 2x higher in the ROI compared to the UK, 4x higher when compared to just NI - which in my opinion makes sense considering Northern Ireland is essentially a territorial artifact of British colonialism.

I guess we'll find out if the people of NI agree, but I don't see how joining the ROI is going down a road global isolation.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 3
    #27763221 - 05/04/22 05:39 PM (2 years, 15 days ago)

Some of my favourite Irish Republican tunes:

















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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #27763250 - 05/04/22 06:04 PM (2 years, 15 days ago)

Whenever a country is occupied by a foreign power, I find I have a degree of sympathy for the common people who resist this.

No matter how bad the regime was, you see the foreigners come and drop bombs and rape the land and you're just like -no-

I would appreciate it if Ireland, Scotland and Wales were given a fair chance to stand on their own two feet again, if they so wished.

I have sympathy for that, a sympathy for the downtrodden pushing back in defense against an overwhelming foreign force invading their land of birth.

Europe had this with the Nazis, and it still echoes in our mentality.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Asante] * 2
    #27768084 - 05/08/22 01:42 AM (2 years, 11 days ago)



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27768174 - 05/08/22 05:42 AM (2 years, 11 days ago)

I've been reading it could take 5 years, IDK. Sinn Fein ran mainly on socioeconomic conditions for poor and average people, but it's nice to see that once they got the majority, they immediately are trying to get the ball rolling on unification. I was also surprised to learn how much support they have in the South. In the last Irish election two parties had to form a coalition to prevent Sinn Fein from the majority there as well. But it sounded like there wasn't a great deal of ideological differences between the three parties, so hopefully they can come to major agreements.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27768178 - 05/08/22 05:52 AM (2 years, 11 days ago)

Alright you guys have convinced me Erin go bragh and all this :awebigvaped:

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27779823 - 05/16/22 05:02 AM (2 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The Republic of Ireland is part of the EU - not exactly on their own now, eh. I imagine North Ireland will do better as part of the ROI than remaining a pseudo colony to a post-Brexit UK.

And yes, this would be the best possible outcome for achieving a united Ireland - and should be considered a shining example of resolving sectarian conflict and border disputes as democratically as possible. Take note, supporters of Russian military action.




Of course it's a great outcome but don't forget it took 50 years for the IRA to work out that shooting and bombing and knee capping ordinary civilians wasn't working. They were a cohort of murderous thugs.
If it wasn't for Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein Northern Ireland would still be a war zone.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27779882 - 05/16/22 06:43 AM (2 years, 3 days ago)

The IRA was good, actually.


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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27779899 - 05/16/22 06:59 AM (2 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
If it wasn't for Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein Northern Ireland would still be a war zone.




In some sense it still is a warzone as they still do not have full ancestral control of their lands. They see it as a fundamental matter of their pride.

I won't defend violence but I also understand that this violence was motivated by the pretty obvious violence of taking someone else's land.

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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: CreonAntigone]
    #27779908 - 05/16/22 07:09 AM (2 years, 3 days ago)

Violence cooled down in Nothern Ireland when they had economic prosperity. Now they don't and Brexit made it worse. There was a lot of violence last year.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27779914 - 05/16/22 07:17 AM (2 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The IRA was good, actually.




That's a sick joke right?

Why is it that American's view the IRA as some sort of noble freedom fighters? They were a cohort of violent thugs that murdered almost as many civilians as they did soldiers or police.

Anyone that grew up in Ireland will tell you that most of the country fucking hates them, they are viewed like the mafia. Ireland is still ridiculously violent thanks to those morons.

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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27780064 - 05/16/22 10:31 AM (2 years, 3 days ago)

What were the UDA then?


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27780169 - 05/16/22 11:59 AM (2 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The Republic of Ireland is part of the EU - not exactly on their own now, eh. I imagine North Ireland will do better as part of the ROI than remaining a pseudo colony to a post-Brexit UK.

And yes, this would be the best possible outcome for achieving a united Ireland - and should be considered a shining example of resolving sectarian conflict and border disputes as democratically as possible. Take note, supporters of Russian military action.




Of course it's a great outcome but don't forget it took 50 years for the IRA to work out that shooting and bombing and knee capping ordinary civilians wasn't working. They were a cohort of murderous thugs.
If it wasn't for Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein Northern Ireland would still be a war zone.



It's weird to talk about Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein as if they are distinct from the PIRA. Officially, this separation had to be made but Sinn Fein and the PIRA are, respectively, the political and militant wings of the same organization.

Absolutely, the hard-learned lesson of the Troubles is that sectarian violence doesn't solve sectarian conflict. The greatest reduction of violence wasn't achieved by one side dominating the other, but by creating the conditions for a pluralism where the people of NI are free to self-identify as either Irish, British, or both. It's unfortunate that around the globe this lesson needs to be relearned over and over again.

Personally, I think the cause of the provos - resistance to, and protection from, English colonialism - is just, and I don't think England would have agreed to the Belfast protocol without the presence of militant resistance - but I don't necessarily think their means of achieving this was always justified. A big part of anarchist action is that the ends must be reflected in the means. I have no problem with the targeting of military, police, and paramilitary - hell, even the politicians giving out the orders - but targeted violence towards civilians, or even indiscriminate violence that unintentionally harms civilians, is a line I'm unwilling to cross, and unable to justify.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27780339 - 05/16/22 02:20 PM (2 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
What were the UDA then?




Not quite as violent but much the same, they killed civilians as well just not as many. Violence from both sides still exists.
Thankfully they were able to sign those agreements and de escalate the violence through legitimate diplomacy.
Gerry Adams walked a fine line and who knows if he has blood on his hands but at least the violence ended.
Good luck to Sinn Fein.

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OfflineBobbins
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27781030 - 05/17/22 02:13 AM (2 years, 2 days ago)

The IRA were classic retards who can't understand that the people of a nation are nothing to do with their government's actions. Governments are war-makers. If you want to fight back you hit the opposing heads of state, not blow up their civilians because the government does not care about its own people. As has been seen in the last few years, governments have contempt for their own people and see them as cattle-slave type people.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Bobbins] * 2
    #27781226 - 05/17/22 07:07 AM (2 years, 2 days ago)

“The IRA doesn’t understand the difference between political violence and politics.”

Y’all realize Sinn Fein doesn’t happen without the IRA right?




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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27781985 - 05/17/22 06:27 PM (2 years, 1 day ago)

During The Troubles, which lasted for decades, on average a bomb went off every day and one of the Provisional IRA's biggest arming operations was done by American Republicans, who felt kinship with the Irish Republican Army.





I'm not disrespecting the Provo's but - there was a lot of violence in the small and the big.

I agree with them that the natural border between Ireland and Britain is the ocean which goes all the way around. To have a part held hostage by another power is as unnatural to me as having the Germans run my country during WW2.

Let ireland be ireland so that the respect between sovereign states can -begin-.

Its not civil or respectful to occupy part of another country, it shows you view them as an inferior.

Thats the trouble with the Israel/Palestine situation too. A number of Jews feel that it is too early to establish the state of Israel, as by their scriptures ordained by God, and that its because of this that the current state of Israel is fraught with problem upon problem.


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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Asante]
    #27782840 - 05/18/22 10:51 AM (2 years, 1 day ago)

I view the isreal Palestine issue as singularly distinct from what happened in Ireland.


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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27783051 - 05/18/22 02:05 PM (2 years, 1 day ago)

I agree, but not all do. The Prov. IRA and PLO exchanged weapons and technology between them.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:





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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Asante]
    #27783871 - 05/19/22 06:10 AM (2 years, 11 hours ago)

I don't think it would have been possible for Sinn Fein to have this electoral success if Gerry Adams had not stepped down four years ago. Northern Ireland still has more Protestants than Catholics. The two women leading the party have less association with the Provos.


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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #27783876 - 05/19/22 06:18 AM (2 years, 11 hours ago)

Its a phase in history that apparently was necessary, or it wouldnt have been.






Are Rebel Songs still illegal in Britain?


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27784041 - 05/19/22 09:24 AM (2 years, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The IRA was good, actually.





Christ no. Run afoul of them and you'd end up face down in a bathtub, with two bullet holes in your kneecaps. They were not good people and I think even most normal Irish people who lived in areas where they were operating would probably agree with that. They were basically a kind of mafia.


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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: wolf8312]
    #27784053 - 05/19/22 09:33 AM (2 years, 8 hours ago)

Yeah Ira was pretty much nothing but a terrorist organization :shrug:

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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #27784081 - 05/19/22 10:03 AM (2 years, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

CHeifM4sterDiezL said:
Yeah Ira was pretty much nothing but a terrorist organization :shrug:




Yeah, although from what I've heard the British intelligence services were up to their neck in a lot of it. Pretty much the same kind of shit they got up to in Iraq and the old empire.


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OfflineCHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: wolf8312]
    #27784092 - 05/19/22 10:18 AM (2 years, 7 hours ago)

:shrug:

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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #27788289 - 05/22/22 02:38 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

This is a meaningless talking point. First of all, the size of a nation (or other polity) has little effect on per capita economics. For example, small nations can be very wealthy, and large nations can be very poor. You see the same thing with states, cities, etc. Small states can have strong economies and high wages, and large states can be poor and impoverished. This is not my opinion or a matter of conjecture, but a statistical and empirical fact that can be easily verified by looking up the economic and financial data across several different countries. The size of a national economy has basically no relevance to anyone besides investment bankers, corporate CEOs, and political and military leadership. From the perspective of the average citizen, what actually matters is the per capita economic data, not the size of the national economy.

Secondly, you automatically assume that supporters of Irish independence are conservative. This is absurd, and it just displays your complete ignorance of left wing politics, and I say that as a leftist myself. It's true that many neoliberals and other members of the center-left tend to favor larger governments, larger economies, and larger corporations, but most people on the "far-left" like socialists, communists, anarchists, indigenous activists, etc. would probably hold a very different view. There are many reasons to favor more localized, small scale governance in both the political and economic domain. Of course there are exceptions, but local government and small businesses tend to be less prone to corruption, and are more responsive to the interests and needs of their community. At more localized scales, it is easier to hold those in power accountable for their actions, and it's harder for corporations, lobbyists, and other special interest groups to throw their weight around. A corporation can spend a million dollars on lobbying at the national level, but it's much harder to do so in dozens of smaller elections at the same time.

Furthermore, there are many reasons why a population or group of people might not want to live under the authority of another nation, especially one like the UK. The UK has a long history of imperialism, oppression, and colonialism. By submitting to the authority of the UK (or the US, or the EU, or etc.), one is submitting to the authority of a nation that has been at the forefront of capitalism, imperialism, and colonialism for literally centuries. We need more national, cultural, and political diversity in the world, not less. Different cultures and nations should be politically free and independent, and should have the right to self-governance. People in the Commonwealth of nations or anywhere else in the world should not have to submit to the political authority of the UK, or any other nation. Countries should be ruled by their local populations and citizens, not by political and financial elites from foreign imperialistic nations like the UK or US. Ireland should not have to submit to the UK. Palestine should not have to submit to Israel. Self-governance is a good thing, not a bad thing, and self-governance is not some sort of right-wing "nationalist" position, it's actually a very common position that most socialists and other radical leftists support, even if the mainstream neoliberal centre-left does not.

Building international relations and partnerships is great, and I think most leftists would be big supporters of that, but fostering international cooperation does not in any way require the centralization of political and financial power, and in general, small business and local governments are going to serve the average citizen much better the multinational corporations and governments that answer to dozens of millions of citizens. Moreover, if you look at international political organizations and NGOs like the IMF, UN, the EU, the World Bank, etc. these organizations often present themselves as promoting friendly international relations and global cooperation, but in reality they actually function as a global instrument for protecting and promoting the interests of the political establishment and the capitalist class. In particular, they function as a neocolonialist tool to promote the centralization of political and economic power in the hands of a small ruling elite in the US, the UK, and the EU, primarily by means of "trade deals" and international agreements, in which smaller nations -- and often (though not always) poorer -- are forced into agreements that generally favor the larger and wealthier nations like the US and UK that get to dictate the terms of these agreements. Colonialism and imperialism are still alive and well, just under a different name. Organizations like the IMF and the UN are the modern vehicles of these imperialist policies, and they function almost entirely to make the US and UK more wealthy and more powerful, at the expense of the peoples and nations under their control (including their own citizens). If you want to promote international solidarity and cooperation, that's great and you should do so, but that goal can be pursued without the need for political and economic centralization, and as as liberal, I would expect you to appreciate the benefits of small business and local government.

You're not a critic of nationalism, but rather an advocate for neocolonialism.

Edited by Quasiorder (05/22/22 02:48 PM)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Quasiorder]
    #27788726 - 05/22/22 08:31 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Of course the IRA was violent and coercive and broke the rules. What military isn’t/doesn’t?


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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27794744 - 05/27/22 06:47 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-moves-to-make-irish-language-official-in-northern-ireland/

This is interesting, but mainly symbolic. Most of the people in the rest of Ireland don't speak much Irish.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Asante]
    #27794977 - 05/27/22 11:07 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
During The Troubles, which lasted for decades, on average a bomb went off every day




We had a very British-centric newsfeed in Aus and if I think about the 70's the IRA bombings, letterbox bombs were almost daily news.

Even though I agree with their cause they were a violent terrorist organisation with a perverted sense of justice.

I think it's a testament to the strength of character of the people that were able to shape Sinn Feign into a legitimate political party.



I still remember a joke from back then;

What's the fastest game on earth?

Playing a game of pass the parcel in a Belfast pub.

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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27794996 - 05/27/22 11:22 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I'm not glorifying any group that uses violence, such as the military of my country, but situation was that from the viewpoint of Ireland, the Provo IRA in their days were the military of their conquered country.

I wouldnt want a big neighbor like Germany holding down a portion of my land and with it keeping it from being sovereign and free. I would sympathize with those who did something about that, quite a bit.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Asante]
    #27795014 - 05/27/22 11:36 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Yes I take your point on them fighting for their independence I'm just not a fan :shrug:

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Re: Give Ireland Back To the Irish [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27795021 - 05/27/22 11:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

I'm very uneasy about many aspectsof it too, others are interesting from other points of view, such as their advanced engineering of improvised materials, that stand completely apart from politics.


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