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 TheConfluence
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 Gender... What is it.  2
#27750545 - 04/25/22 11:23 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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At the very least here in the United States there is a frothing debate over the validity over transgender people and the validity of their internal subjective experience. Several years ago the American people lived in sheer terror under the constant threat of a transgender person potentially occupying the stall next to them and quietly and privately relieving themselves. After quite a lot of negative press and owning of liberal idealism nobody won anything and effectively nothing changed in the slightest... Or so it seemed.
In the years that followed the, "the lady in the stall next to me has a suspicious sounding stream" panic of 2016, many of the most outspoken opposition became violently radicalized against the notion of gender being more complex that "dick or no dick"... And they became inextricably obsessed with particularly transgender women.
"They'll molest my daughter at the Target super center and I just can't let that happen"... But this had never before... Nor has yet to happen. The opposition was literally brawling a straw man... Many continue to do so to this day.
Today a more egregious assault is being mounted against the transgender community but this time conservatives have taken aim at a group they know they can certainly out argue... Literal Children. Conservatives have decided that if a child never learns that transgender people exist... Then they will never become transgender. A hilariously small minded perspective but nonetheless one that has purchased an enormous swath of real estate in the minds of these people entirely rent free. False narratives proliferate the political battle field, "they're groomers", "they're indoctrinating", "they're abusing our children"...
But...
What is going on?
The gestalt perspective is fairly simple... Transgender people exist... They are healthier and have better mental and physical health outcomes when they are able to begin transitioning earlier in life... And there is a reality that transitioning in and of it self takes many years to accomplish.
So...
Bring it up once or twice during sex education, something more or less all children in public education are taught anyways and maybe help a troubled child feel a little bit safer and better about possibly having some very different feelings about their body.
These "hot button" issues pertaining to the "LGBT Agenda" are something that I have fixated on since the push to legalize gay marriage... Which you may have forgotten only came to be about 10 years ago.
So I cannot help but curiously wonder.
What defines gender to you?
What is a man?
What is a woman?
And what on earth is so scary about a transgender woman with a full bladder?
Moreover, do you believe that banning conversation pertaining to LGBT issues in public schools will impact at all the volume of young people who are transitioning in our society?
***Context: I am a BA psychologist considering taking the leap of faith into a PhD in endocrinology***
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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 TheDirtFarmer
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 Re: Gender... What is it. *DELETED* [Re: TheConfluence] 4
#27750637 - 04/25/22 12:56 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by TheDirtFarmer
Reason for deletion: trannies weird
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VP123
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
So I cannot help but curiously wonder.
What defines gender to you?
What is a man?
What is a woman?
Perhaps the error has been trying to always categorize people within only these two gender options, either man or woman. It is almost as inaccurate as trying to define the sexual preferences of an individual based on their genitals at birth.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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I think as far as public schools go, topics need not be avoided, and gender should be addressed at least lightly and without discriminatory attitude at every age. Essentially it is a personal question.
As it is - as far as a society enhanced by science and medicine - we are still largely at the beginning of our journey about endocrinology, and the brain, and the psychology involved in gender and gender fluidity.
Accordingly I would not get in very deep on the topic, neither here nor in schools, but openness and anti-discriminatory awareness should be fostered in an even-minded way.
Junior school is not a good forum in which to publicly discover your personal gender, although gender is certainly a social quality it is more personal than most issues that are safe to explore in the kind of forum that degenerates rapidly to Lord of the Flies.
Finally the comment about starting hormone therapies early, is premature in my mind. The satisfactoriness of results is not just a matter of how early in one's life the change is applied, but also the expertise of the medical team (which has a confounding profit motive as well), and the psychology of the person going through a change. Lowered expectations are important, both for the quality of physical changes, and quality of health after extensive on going treatments with hormones.
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TheConfluence
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Finally the comment about starting hormone therapies early, is premature in my mind. The satisfactoriness of results is not just a matter of how early in one's life the change is applied, but also the expertise of the medical team (which has a confounding profit motive as well), and the psychology of the person going through a change. Lowered expectations are important, both for the quality of physical changes, and quality of health after extensive on going treatments with hormones.
I want to address in as simple and concise of a manner as I can.
Specifically just for transgender women (MtF) there are profound skeletal changes associated with exposure to testosterone during puberty.
Knowing that "Passability", the persons ability to simply blend in as their internally understood gender, plays an enormous role in their occupational life and in terms of their ability to get and keep a worth while occupation...
what should the individuals rights be in regard to accessing those hormones? (assuming this is a younger person who is dealing with an identity crisis in this way).
**MtF starts puberty blockers at 16-17 y/o... Looks Like a genetic woman by age 24 and gets the privilege of living a stealth life and never once deals with intolerance in the workplace. this person is able to provide for themselve through the merit of their work
VS
MtF starts hormone replacement therapy at 22... spends thousands of $$$ on electrolysis hair removal which takes years and is never able to pass due to broadening in the shoulders, ribcage, brow bone and Adam's apple. this person struggles occupationally for their entire lifetime and teeters on the brink of homelessness despite an excellent education and great qualifications.**
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
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I think it takes a reasonable degree of collaboration with various doctors (in medicine & psychology) to determine the best course of action.
The research literature undeniably points towards an urgent need to facilitate greater access. Ideally we could see a medical system without a white-dominant gender reductionist ideology to reduce these barriers to access. There's plenty of research on how stigma reduces healthcare engagement, patient disclosure & thus increase barriers to access. And of course, trans people experience pre-existing barriers to access for a variety of reasons.
With the disclosure piece, it becomes much more difficult to assess a patient's need for hormone treatments if they are unable to disclose their experience; there is also more room for error (those few potential cases where hormone therapy is not warranted/beneficial may not be detected due to stigma preventing disclosure of information healthcare providers need to know to make informed decisions).
Thus, in my view, the potential harms of hormone treatments are likely to stem from the socially and systemically constructed barriers within healthcare that exist in the first place. And of course this makes easy cannon fodder for the dominant transphobic culture when things don't go smoothly...
Create a poorly designed system that is under capacity -> watch as it doesn't work out -> blame the trans people rather than your underdeveloped and under-researched system
Either way, most of the evidence points towards expanding developments, amending regulations that prevent access, and encouraging non-stigmatizing conversations & education. There's no doubt that trans people benefit greatly from hormone therapy and these benefits increase at an earlier age; we at least know that these treatments are safe and they work.
It's not like kids & adolescents just sporadically decide to change their gender identity. They have to go through a long process with doctors and psychologists and anyone who goes through this process reflects a dramatic shift away from the developmental pathway of the gender they were assigned at birth just by exercising this type of commitment; I don't think there's much risk associated with allowing kids and adolescents access to these treatments given how extensive (& expensive!!) the process is.
People deserve the right to this treatment even at younger ages in my opinion. I believe that most arguments which use the spontaneity of underage decision making as an argument against this doesn't understand the safeguards in place nor child/adolescent biopsychosocial development.
@RGV I'm curious what potential harms specifically you are concerned about regarding accessing hormone treatments at earlier ages? I only ask because the research I have seen has not shown much harms related to age and there is a lot of potential for dominant cultural attitudes to contaminate our concerns over the potential harms.
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
but also the expertise of the medical team (which has a confounding profit motive as well), and the psychology of the person going through a change.
Doesn't this just support a call to action for greater access & psychoeducation for healthcare providers and patients alike? These are structural issues, not problems with the therapy itself.
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/25/22 05:17 PM)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Quote:
TheDirtFarmer said:
Gender is not that complicated. Its basic biology. X and Y chromosome = penis = man. Two Y chromosomes = vagina = woman. I dont care what you do to APPEAR to be the opposite gender, genetically you will always be the gender you were born. Hermaphrodites make it somewhat confusing but im not sure what the chromosome situation is like there.
Not that theres anything wrong with trans people but IMO gender is distinctly biological and not based on feelings.
You're obviously not familiar with research but I don't know if I have time to get into just how fundamentally wrong you are.
Even human biologists in today's day and age don't believe in this for the most part given the interaction between genetics, epigenetics, chromosomal conditions, neuronal development, social constructs & culture, etc. The modern age just cannot explain all these interacting components by one word alone (gender).
This is why in the 21st century we have seen a distinction between gender (identity) and sex (chromosomal sex), as well as exploring how they interact - chromosomes can predicts a proportion of variance in hormones, but configurations of neural projections, epigentics, and social roles also predict a greater degree of this variance. Likewise, gender identity has some overlap, but is explained more by other factors.
Gender reductionism has very little explanatory power in today's age. This is why the biopsychosocial model is so crucial. You're leaving out the psycho and social parts of the equation. (literally an equation -> Structural Equation Modelling has been used to account for proportions of overall variance attributable to the variance of each factor)
Just trust the scientists on this one 
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6Trypp9
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 3
#27750925 - 04/25/22 04:31 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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We are all human....get the fuck over your sad selves
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TheConfluence
Stranger
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: 6Trypp9] 2
#27751197 - 04/25/22 07:51 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
6Trypp9 said:
We are all human....get the fuck over your sad selves
Very productive 👍
Rhizomorph just killed the game like I could have never imagined... Bravo 👏
I'm just genuinely curious about the specifics of what exactly is so concerning about a young person who legitimately is trans and legitimately goes through the rigorous process of... Telling the family... Telling the friends... Telling the doctor and the therapist... Taking the pills... Waiting and waiting and waiting while very little happens at all (hormones are painfully slow acting).
I completely understand not wanting to cut the entire penis off of an 11 year old... But also no one is doing that.
And I also am willing to entertain religious opposition.
I simply have heard such a violent and cacophonous opposition... But without a single solitary point rooted in any objective science what so ever...
Also high five rhizo holy cow!
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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i just want to mention that many women maybe 90% want to suppress facial hair etc.
just getting shots early is not going to guarantee that after a transition you will look divine.
hormone is not genetics. it is crude.
a few people live the dream of an amazing body in synch with their identity
most need daily adjustment to feel on top of their appearance.
usually no medical opportunities exist
so not that many are lucky 100%
with or without medical intervention
I think that the medical community's understanding and the science of hormone interaction on long term health is still in infancy
meanwhile a much better approach would be a reversible genetic way to deal with changing the body. It is not meat to be worked like clay by medical mercenaries.
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
i just want to mention that many women maybe 90% want to suppress facial hair etc.
just getting shots early is not going to guarantee that after a transition you will look divine.
hormone is not genetics. it is crude.
a few people live the dream of an amazing body in synch with their identity
most need daily adjustment to feel on top of their appearance.
usually no medical opportunities exist
so not that many are lucky 100%
with or without medical intervention
I think that the medical community's understanding and the science of hormone interaction on long term health is still in infancy
meanwhile a much better approach would be a reversible genetic way to deal with changing the body. It is not meat to be worked like clay by medical mercenaries.
I'm just going to reiterate what I said earlier: what specifically are you concerned about? Where's the evidence for your claims?
Nobody here ever said hormones = genetics. I only said that they interrelate. Technically every bodily process is related to genetics as genes are essentially the blueprint for telling your body how to produce and direct proteins and other related functions. But the entirety of the human genome blurs the picture when we consider molecular genetics and their transactional influences with the environment (in the case of epigenetics).
I may be better persuaded by research that indicates this area is still in its "infancy"... psychedelic research is still in its "infancy" (depending on which angle you look at it; scientific knowledge accumulation has always been historically relative) but we have enough data to know that it works; we can still make knowledge claims and pave the path forwards with the data we do have. If science is progressive & cumulative then you could technically always say it is in its infancy which is why we need a more comprehensive criteria for determining when something is safe and effective. The meta analysis I shared did a pretty good job I'd say, and there's more like it.
Again, I don't see the relevance of whether or not people look divine by whatever metric or standards you're using. I care that the research shows that it is safe and that it works
I appreciate your thoughts as always RGV 
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/25/22 09:45 PM)
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6Trypp9
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 2
#27751342 - 04/25/22 09:29 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Productive? You know what is really productive??
Trying to figure out which of the 80 genders you are, when we have world full of problems that you could attempt to fix. 
Think i'll just stay home and blab on social media and try and figure out what the fuck I am exactly,thats what I call being highly productive!!
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: 6Trypp9] 1
#27751343 - 04/25/22 09:29 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
6Trypp9 said:
We are all human....get the fuck over your sad selves
Don't know about you but I find this topic fascinating 
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: 6Trypp9] 2
#27751349 - 04/25/22 09:38 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
6Trypp9 said:
when we have world full of problems that you could attempt to fix.
Like conducting clinical research on psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy to help address the urgent need for improved mental healthcare?
What contributions are you making out in the real world?
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/25/22 09:43 PM)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
Also high five rhizo holy cow!
Thanks! I finished my BA in psychology last year - endocrinology sounds super cool and right up your alley! Evidence-based practice FTW 
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/25/22 09:42 PM)
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Kickle
Wanderer
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#27751729 - 04/26/22 07:49 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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What defines gender to you?
Never given it much thought TBH. I do think that definitions exist to create distinction. To help us understand distinct elements around us. And definitions in flux become less useful in that way until something settles.
Like slang. I'm at the age where some of the new slang doesn't help me with distinction, because I'm not the one creating it at this point. Doesn't mean slang is bad, just that it isn't personally valued in the same way as when you are in the process of distinguishing for the first time. I'm aging out of my time in that process in some ways.
I think that new distinctions are necessary and that the youth will always make better distinctions because they are layering new information on top of prior distinctions, creating a superior distinction in the end. But the prior generation had the same process and I think it's easy to overlook the reason some hold to their distinctions is because they were meaningful to them in the same way the new distinctions are meaningful to those creating them now. It's easy to say let go, but it's harder in practice for many. You may be one who finds it hard in your own time, so best not to judge too much IMO. One need not judge another in order to hold a value for oneself.
What is a man?
What is a woman?
Definitions and maybe self identity? I've somewhat identified as a man in my life but if someone were to call me a woman I wouldn't pay it much mind. I can imagine if it happened perpetually I would spend more time reflecting on the experience of dissonance tho.
And what on earth is so scary about a transgender woman with a full bladder?
For me? Or for someone who is afraid? I don't find it scary 
Moreover, do you believe that banning conversation pertaining to LGBT issues in public schools will impact at all the volume of young people who are transitioning in our society?
I think it's more likely to encourage those individuals to find power in their voice. Which in some ways is the process of making it valuable. It happens with every generation. Rock n roll was the devil's music at one point dontcha know. And that pushed it to it's highest point. Rock isn't even close to as significant or meaningful now in culture without that push/pull.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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Gender and sex were synonymous. There was a debate here last year in which I argued that gender was an expression of masculinity and femininity. I had taken it as such for many decades (I'm gen X). Upon researching the subject I found I was wrong.
My views may have been shaped by Bowie among other pop references, early references which challenged the traditional meaning of the word. And yet even in the alt culture gender was not a challenge to traditional definitions of man/woman. Bowie for instance would have said he had both masculine and feminine sides and yet didn't try to present as a woman and yet often presented with traditional feminine features, clothing, makeup, expression.
And now gender does equate to woman, or at least it can. The inability to answer a simple questions such as the definition of an ambiguous word is an indicator that it's become an opinion based definition rather than objective.
Another long standing suggestion is that we all have our masculine and feminine side. This has behavioral traits which we must distinguish. An early understanding was that females embody femininity and males embody masculinity in typical fashion. These qualities are opposites and some are easily identifiable. Big/small soft/hard yielding/unyielding passive/aggressive... and then things start to get complicated. When it comes to the mental realm humans become more similar and it becomes a matter of working with the differences to express what is most typical behavior. An example of this would be a man using physical intimidation for control and a woman using withholding of affection for control, the idea being that those things are only typical due to physical differences rather than mental ones though it might be suggested that such tendencies work their way into genetic expression over time.
Along those lines (ideas of masculinity/femininity) we encounter hierarchy, the idea that for any two individuals one will end up being more assertive and dominant, though the degree to which this is the case may be small an difficult to denote. Pairing for any social activity (not just procreative/sexual) can be described along these lines where gender influence tends to equal out. I.E. a highly masculine person may be naturally attracted to a highly feminine person and gender neutral individuals will be more attracted to other gender neutral people. This is in the realm of conventional wisdom so how it would play out in a scientific study, and how that study would go about objectively determining the gender values I don't know. It should also be said that there are exceptions to everything in such a realm and it's scientific credibility is questionable.
But back to the idea of gender in it's new sense encroaching on the traditional definition of a woman. It seems like fantasy to me, an expression of dysphoria where indulgence of such fantasy may potentially produce more enjoyment than simply living with the dysphoria. And of course, if others indulge someone their fantasy the effect may be more pronounced. But is a person obligated to address a biological man as a woman? In contemplating this question one might keep in mind the absence of congruity between the fantasy and the objectivity and question whether there is a sacrificing of logical integrity.
In the traditional sense a woman is objectively female. As with other species it indicates an animal which gives birth or produces eggs. And here we're putting at risk the definition of feminine/masculine, yet in this scientific sense the female isn't necessarily the physically weaker sex, that being a more typical trait of mammals. And yet with humans perhaps more so than other mammals there are exceptions to this rule! Perhaps there was a time when this was less the case.
This does not change the reality that females/women are the ones who have wombs and gestate new humans. That is the reality which is today being challenged. Gender expression alone is not enough to explain the heavy body modifications which some people seek. And yet, there is no mechanism to change the chromosomes (which either have a Y or do not), nor is there yet a mechanism to cause a male body to grow eggs. One might suppose this becomes set during the merging of sperm and egg and I don't know of evidence which might contradict this apparent fact.
So a male to female will have to live with the knowledge that they are not actually a female in the biological sense, regardless of what biochemistry or physical perception they are experiencing. If it makes them happy, then who is to say it's wrong? This is a complicated issue when compounded with the question of procreation. Of course, many women do not want to have children, but they generally have the ability or are at least genetically encoded for it.
It comes down to the purpose of sex, which is not singular. I don't believe nature has such exact goals. But still, regardless of conventional wisdom and anecdotal evidence I don't suppose a person with body dysmorphia will ever have the same sense about themselves that a person who is fine with the body they were born with has. In one case there is primacy placed on appearance (a feminine quality) and sex in the biological sense. These are social considerations being that in absence of such differences a person would be less apt to care or put much thought into it. This begs the question of whether hyper sexualization of culture has resulted in feminine males wanting to be actual (biological) women.
I tend to think it's just another sign of humanity being out of it's natural element, which a crass person may describe as "fucked up". Whether the continued separation of humanity from this natural element will result in more overall happiness is a complex subject. Personally I don't think it will result in an overall increase in happiness or harmony (my opinion being the skeptic I am). Humans are generally miserable creatures who's response to the question of happiness generally hinges on material possession (in this case one's own body), in which a positive affirmation may or may not be an indicator of the truth.
At any rate, the term "biological woman/female" gets used a lot (more than was necessary in the past) which is an indication that there is even in the alt community, a distinction being made between a MtF and a natural woman.
And finally, it's worth considering that just as in the Calhoun rodent experiments, human sexual expression may change when an overpopulation situation is perceived/experienced. Meaning to say, the transgender phenomena isn't simply individuals having access to technology that allows them to express their true selves but rather individuals responding to social and cultural stress resulting from their unnatural/extraordinary living conditions. Nature's way of controlling population in a manner of speaking. In so much as this living condition is real the tendency will be to either encourage it or advocate an end to the living condition that causes stress. In either case, depopulation minus extinction is the underlying goal. One might suppose being a transgender advocate to be the more humane approach as well as the one which eventually helps distinguish a more clear delineation between the sexes being that it's reasonable given the results of the rodent experiments that the more masculine/robust male rodents were the ones who did not spend their time grooming themselves rather than continuing to procreate with the female rodents. In contrast, warfare ostensibly expends some of the most capable males. However, it should also be pointed out that the Calhoun experiments always resulted in extinction.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
i just want to mention that many women maybe 90% want to suppress facial hair etc.
just getting shots early is not going to guarantee that after a transition you will look divine.
hormone is not genetics. it is crude.
a few people live the dream of an amazing body in synch with their identity
most need daily adjustment to feel on top of their appearance.
usually no medical opportunities exist
so not that many are lucky 100%
with or without medical intervention
I think that the medical community's understanding and the science of hormone interaction on long term health is still in infancy
meanwhile a much better approach would be a reversible genetic way to deal with changing the body. It is not meat to be worked like clay by medical mercenaries.
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
i just want to mention that many women maybe 90% want to suppress facial hair etc.
just getting shots early is not going to guarantee that after a transition you will look divine.
hormone is not genetics. it is crude.
a few people live the dream of an amazing body in synch with their identity
most need daily adjustment to feel on top of their appearance.
usually no medical opportunities exist
so not that many are lucky 100%
with or without medical intervention
I think that the medical community's understanding and the science of hormone interaction on long term health is still in infancy
meanwhile a much better approach would be a reversible genetic way to deal with changing the body. It is not meat to be worked like clay by medical mercenaries.
I hate to do this... But this is foundationally incorrect.
Endogenous sex hormones are functionally a blueprint or a set of instructions for specific places in your body and they serve to instruct protein synthesis. They tell your body how to build itself.
That being said... The changes associated with HRT actually 100% IS genetics for this and some other reasons. The role of estrogen and testosterone respectively is to dictate where fat is stored, where muscle growth is going to be prioritized, and where new hair follicles will develop and quite a few other things.
Anecdotally: a transwomen begging HRT will be able to predict one particular sex defining trait and how that part of their body will develop with a relatively high degree of certainty. Talking about breasts here. As strange as it may sound... It is an expectation with HRT in transgender women that their breasts will stop developing at more or less 1 and 1/2 cup size smaller than their mothers.
Not that it should matter but it is exemplary of how genetics always dictate the efficacy of hormone replacement therapy and this is true for cis people as well for instance taking anabolic steroids for body building (body builders are literally transgender in my eyes)
My point with this is that every single human while they are developing is exposed to both sex hormones and has the ability to utilize those hormones in their development. In the womb those hormones are partially involved with how a person's genetic phenotype occurs in nature... But the innate ability for the body to process either or and for cis females both never goes away.
That being said I'll conclude harshly. Transitioning early doesn't mean the trans girl in this case will be conventionally beautiful... But she will be more likely to be appraised at a passing glance as a female.
You can be an ugly female without anyone accusing you of not being female... Hopefully that makes sense.
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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TheConfluence
Stranger
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Posts: 157
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: 6Trypp9] 1
#27751988 - 04/26/22 11:30 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
6Trypp9 said:
Productive? You know what is really productive??
Trying to figure out which of the 80 genders you are, when we have world full of problems that you could attempt to fix.
Think i'll just stay home and blab on social media and try and figure out what the fuck I am exactly,thats what I call being highly productive!!
I'm working on my PhD...
😇
What are you doing?
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz] 2
#27752013 - 04/26/22 11:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Whether the continued separation of humanity from this natural element will result in more overall happiness is a complex subject. Personally I don't think it will result in an overall increase in happiness or harmony (my opinion being the skeptic I am). Humans are generally miserable creatures who's response to the question of happiness generally hinges on material possession (in this case one's own body), in which a positive affirmation may or may not be an indicator of the truth.
I don't think it's about happiness. Suffering drives one to seek less suffering. But less suffering does not equate to happiness imo. It equates to change.
I am in agreement that the more things change the more they stay the same. But it's a perspective that comes from experiencing change over and over again.
With that said I do think there's a chance for small improvements along the way and positive emergences. The rock music in the 60s and 70s is beautiful. Not in any objective way that I can ID, but in the way it proved itself to be valuable.
I don't think things without value persevere. Like you said, if nothing else, less population is a benefit at this point. And a key component in the studies you mention may be an absence of value beyond mere survival. AKA after a certain point there are no more survivors to be had. The only challenge that emerged then was a self imposed one. And naturally a species cannot overcome it's own self imposed limits with nothing else being introduced.
I think humanity is in a similar situation but has more potential to expand into new conditions than the rats ever did. The rats had an upper limitation set by the experiment that may or may not exist for humans. If it does in the same way, then I do think extinction is on the horizon. But not because of any specific ideology. That would just be meeting the upper bound for humanity.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz] 1
#27752020 - 04/26/22 11:48 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Gender and sex were synonymous. There was a debate here last year in which I argued that gender was an expression of masculinity and femininity. I had taken it as such for many decades (I'm gen X). Upon researching the subject I found I was wrong.
My views may have been shaped by Bowie among other pop references, early references which challenged the traditional meaning of the word. And yet even in the alt culture gender was not a challenge to traditional definitions of man/woman. Bowie for instance would have said he had both masculine and feminine sides and yet didn't try to present as a woman and yet often presented with traditional feminine features, clothing, makeup, expression.
And now gender does equate to woman, or at least it can. The inability to answer a simple questions such as the definition of an ambiguous word is an indicator that it's become an opinion based definition rather than objective.
Another long standing suggestion is that we all have our masculine and feminine side. This has behavioral traits which we must distinguish. An early understanding was that females embody femininity and males embody masculinity in typical fashion. These qualities are opposites and some are easily identifiable. Big/small soft/hard yielding/unyielding passive/aggressive... and then things start to get complicated. When it comes to the mental realm humans become more similar and it becomes a matter of working with the differences to express what is most typical behavior. An example of this would be a man using physical intimidation for control and a woman using withholding of affection for control, the idea being that those things are only typical due to physical differences rather than mental ones though it might be suggested that such tendencies work their way into genetic expression over time.
Along those lines (ideas of masculinity/femininity) we encounter hierarchy, the idea that for any two individuals one will end up being more assertive and dominant, though the degree to which this is the case may be small an difficult to denote. Pairing for any social activity (not just procreative/sexual) can be described along these lines where gender influence tends to equal out. I.E. a highly masculine person may be naturally attracted to a highly feminine person and gender neutral individuals will be more attracted to other gender neutral people. This is in the realm of conventional wisdom so how it would play out in a scientific study, and how that study would go about objectively determining the gender values I don't know. It should also be said that there are exceptions to everything in such a realm and it's scientific credibility is questionable.
But back to the idea of gender in it's new sense encroaching on the traditional definition of a woman. It seems like fantasy to me, an expression of dysphoria where indulgence of such fantasy may potentially produce more enjoyment than simply living with the dysphoria. And of course, if others indulge someone their fantasy the effect may be more pronounced. But is a person obligated to address a biological man as a woman? In contemplating this question one might keep in mind the absence of congruity between the fantasy and the objectivity and question whether there is a sacrificing of logical integrity.
In the traditional sense a woman is objectively female. As with other species it indicates an animal which gives birth or produces eggs. And here we're putting at risk the definition of feminine/masculine, yet in this scientific sense the female isn't necessarily the physically weaker sex, that being a more typical trait of mammals. And yet with humans perhaps more so than other mammals there are exceptions to this rule! Perhaps there was a time when this was less the case.
This does not change the reality that females/women are the ones who have wombs and gestate new humans. That is the reality which is today being challenged. Gender expression alone is not enough to explain the heavy body modifications which some people seek. And yet, there is no mechanism to change the chromosomes (which either have a Y or do not), nor is there yet a mechanism to cause a male body to grow eggs. One might suppose this becomes set during the merging of sperm and egg and I don't know of evidence which might contradict this apparent fact.
So a male to female will have to live with the knowledge that they are not actually a female in the biological sense, regardless of what biochemistry or physical perception they are experiencing. If it makes them happy, then who is to say it's wrong? This is a complicated issue when compounded with the question of procreation. Of course, many women do not want to have children, but they generally have the ability or are at least genetically encoded for it.
It comes down to the purpose of sex, which is not singular. I don't believe nature has such exact goals. But still, regardless of conventional wisdom and anecdotal evidence I don't suppose a person with body dysmorphia will ever have the same sense about themselves that a person who is fine with the body they were born with has. In one case there is primacy placed on appearance (a feminine quality) and sex in the biological sense. These are social considerations being that in absence of such differences a person would be less apt to care or put much thought into it. This begs the question of whether hyper sexualization of culture has resulted in feminine males wanting to be actual (biological) women.
I tend to think it's just another sign of humanity being out of it's natural element, which a crass person may describe as "fucked up". Whether the continued separation of humanity from this natural element will result in more overall happiness is a complex subject. Personally I don't think it will result in an overall increase in happiness or harmony (my opinion being the skeptic I am). Humans are generally miserable creatures who's response to the question of happiness generally hinges on material possession (in this case one's own body), in which a positive affirmation may or may not be an indicator of the truth.
At any rate, the term "biological woman/female" gets used a lot (more than was necessary in the past) which is an indication that there is even in the alt community, a distinction being made between a MtF and a natural woman.
And finally, it's worth considering that just as in the Calhoun rodent experiments, human sexual expression may change when an overpopulation situation is perceived/experienced. Meaning to say, the transgender phenomena isn't simply individuals having access to technology that allows them to express their true selves but rather individuals responding to social and cultural stress resulting from their unnatural/extraordinary living conditions. Nature's way of controlling population in a manner of speaking. In so much as this living condition is real the tendency will be to either encourage it or advocate an end to the living condition that causes stress. In either case, depopulation minus extinction is the underlying goal. One might suppose being a transgender advocate to be the more humane approach as well as the one which eventually helps distinguish a more clear delineation between the sexes being that it's reasonable given the results of the rodent experiments that the more masculine/robust male rodents were the ones who did not spend their time grooming themselves rather than continuing to procreate with the female rodents. In contrast, warfare ostensibly expends some of the most capable males. However, it should also be pointed out that the Calhoun experiments always resulted in extinction.
The notion that transgender people are transitioning as a mean to facilitate a reduction in overpopulation is as hilarious as it is offensive.
Not to berate you about it but I think it's probably better to assume that the transition is occuring so that individual can feel good when they meet their reflections eyes in the mirror and very little more.
The number of times a trans person has to hear in a medical setting, "this is irreversible and permanent... Are you really sure?" Basically innumerable. Furthermore, the notion that access to profoundly powerful hormones is given in a whim without very serious medical scrutiny is pretty harmful in the face of the lived experiences that these people all must endure.
The foolhardy and impulsive trans______ mostly doesn't exist. I cannot help but feel like this is an opinion derived from conflating transvestism with transgenderism.
Then I regard to childbirth and childrearing.
All I really have to say is plenty of cis women are impotent and still get to be a fulfilled and proud mother via adoption or surrogacy and no one seems to have an issue with that taking place.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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I don't think his comments were about the impact for the individual, but the impact for the society. Different perspectives there.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA 
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
Several years ago the American people lived in sheer terror under the constant threat of a transgender person potentially occupying the stall next to them...
Many people currently strongly object to both sex shared bathrooms.
Males & females in the same bathroom at the same time? Oh, the horror!
Most folks are fine with 15 year old boys being naked in the shower together after gym class in school.
But teen males and females showering together?! Oh my God - that's unthinkable!
I believe this type of segregation has had significant negative repercussions.
This is a progressive idea that actually meets the definition of progressive.
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,334
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
The notion that transgender people are transitioning as a mean to facilitate a reduction in overpopulation is as hilarious as it is offensive.
Not to berate you about it but I think it's probably better to assume that the transition is occuring so that individual can feel good when they meet their reflections eyes in the mirror and very little more.
The rodents in the study specifically the "beautiful ones" spent an unusual amount of time grooming and avoided procreation. Reasonably, there was no intent to lower population. Why don't these people look in the mirror and see beauty in their natural form or despite it? Obviously there's a stressor at work to make them not feel good. What that is specifically is up for debate, and certainly there is a scientific side to it that shouldn't assume. I'm not a scientist, at least when it comes to this subject. I entertain postulations and correlations but don't claim to have the facts. Food for thought.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
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Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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There is no such thing as a transgender child. It's pure ideology. The majority of people who believe "gender dysphoria" is a medical condition that can be diagnosed and treated also believe "gender" is a social construct distinct from human biology. This does not and will never make sense.
For example, the UK's NHS says:
Quote:
Gender dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.
The Mayo Clinic:
Quote:
People who are transgender include:
Those who have a gender identity that differs from the sex assigned to them at birth
Those whose gender expression — the way gender is conveyed to others through clothing, communication, mannerisms and interests — and behavior don't follow stereotypical societal norms for the sex assigned to them at birth
Those who identify and express their gender fluidly outside of the gender binary, which might or might not involve hormonal or surgical procedures
"Gender" in the philosophical tradition out of which the trans movement emerged is not innate but socially constructed. If it is not innate, it does not stand to reason that, as a core feature of an individual, a gender identity can be born into the wrong body, prior to all social conditioning.
Even positing that the trans movement has abandoned the idea of the social construction of gender (it by and large hasn't), we are left with immense difficulty in defining gender and gender identity in medical or psychological terms that do not rely either on biological sex or on stereotypes associated with the social construction of the roles of men and women. This has not been done anywhere near sufficiently.
There's nothing wrong with adults identifying as transgender, i.e., refusing to conform to the stereotypes associated with socially constructed modern gender roles; seeking surgery to better reflect the body they want to see in the mirror, if they have the means; and of course asking for respect and dignity in life with which we should all aspire to treat one another. If this was all that were being discussed, I would support it and also not be particularly interested in it.
However, that is not the case. OP, you mentioned that children are not having their penises entirely removed. Well, they are having their breasts removed. They are being prescribed medications that will likely make them infertile for life. They are being prescribed medications that drastically reduce their bone density. I recognize that this is not widespread at the moment (although I actually never see any figures ventured about how many children are in the process of transitioning) and that it is more common for these procedures to be difficult to access for children and adults alike. However, it is unethical for any children to be undergoing these treatments. There are significant numbers of transgender adults who have de-transitioned and/or who have serious regrets over the biological changes they underwent. Being given a mastectomy as a teenager when one's breasts and the rest of oneself are physiologically healthy, and then feeling as an adult that one has mutilated oneself, is extremely serious. Realizing, after medicines prescribed to you as a minor by a physician have rendered you infertile, that you are actually a man after all and would like to have children is serious. That is victimization by ideology, as no physician in a sane and ethical society would provide a child with such an intervention knowing the child would rue the decision just a few years later. The trans movement can't simply dismiss such things and refuse to engage, as it's in the habit of doing. It does not have the overwhelming support of empirical reality in its favor that it wishes to make a baseline assumption of all debate, and without that overwhelming evidence some of the outcomes it produces are shocking.
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Quote:
...
You can be an ugly female without anyone accusing you of not being female... Hopefully that makes sense....
yes it makes sense.
but no
hormones are not genetics, they are global chemical messages, the genetics prepares the cells and tissues for how that kind of message will be handled. I wont let you off on that one so do not even try.
As humans in 2022 we barely have identified some of the hormone interactions and cannot orchestrate them artificially with anything matching the skill of a concert pianist, it is early.
similar for genetics, early in the game, but using genetics and immunological methods (also severely new in that game are we) precision changes that can be reversible will one day be possible. It is not just a trumpet blast like hormone therapy, it will one day be much more finely orchestrated, while hormones will always be a trumpet blast which is what they have served as in evolution.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 2
#27752258 - 04/26/22 03:06 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's not like kids & adolescents just sporadically decide to change their gender identity. They have to go through a long process with doctors and psychologists and anyone who goes through this process reflects a dramatic shift away from the developmental pathway of the gender they were assigned at birth just by exercising this type of commitment; I don't think there's much risk associated with allowing kids and adolescents access to these treatments given how extensive (& expensive!!) the process is.
You make some compelling arguments and are obviously knowledgeable, but the phrases highlighted above are both over-confidently stated. I've seen among friends' families and acquaintances (lived in a very leftist town with many transgender people) and in journalistic accounts that neither of these is necessarily true at all. Nor have the dynamics of skyrocketing trans identification among children in light of a highly visible and politicized movement been adequately researched.
It is also a bit inaccurate (I can't recall if this was you or OP - posting from a phone) to say that some of the controversies around transgender people in the lamentably idiotic "American culture wars" are purely stoked by opportunistic or bigoted conservatives. There are plenty of liberals, leftist feminists, etc. who have been involved in criticism. They are usually dismissed as TERFs or another slur, and some small portion of them probably deserve that for arguing in bad faith or out of irrational hatred, but nevertheless they complicate the view that it's just some conservative base-stoking maneuver.
--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27752332 - 04/26/22 03:54 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
For example, the UK's NHS says:
Quote:
Gender dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.
I think some people feel much more than "unease" about their body and body parts.
I believe it sometimes is closer to disgust. Self-loathing expresses itself in many ways.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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which does not realistically have a solution in the gend-o-sphere of medical arts and finance.
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27752706 - 04/26/22 09:48 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
Quote:
It's not like kids & adolescents just sporadically decide to change their gender identity. They have to go through a long process with doctors and psychologists and anyone who goes through this process reflects a dramatic shift away from the developmental pathway of the gender they were assigned at birth just by exercising this type of commitment; I don't think there's much risk associated with allowing kids and adolescents access to these treatments given how extensive (& expensive!!) the process is.
You make some compelling arguments and are obviously knowledgeable, but the phrases highlighted above are both over-confidently stated. I've seen among friends' families and acquaintances (lived in a very leftist town with many transgender people) and in journalistic accounts that neither of these is necessarily true at all. Nor have the dynamics of skyrocketing trans identification among children in light of a highly visible and politicized movement been adequately researched.
Did you complete a valid, informed, rigorous, and 1 on 1 developmental assessment of your friends families and acquantainces? I haven't either so I don't tend to take my own face value judgments as canon on the topic. If my comment is over-confident it is only because the research supports it.
Trust me, my gut response is to disagree as well because transgender people are different than me. But as a scientist my literal job is to ignore my brain's subjective/type 1 cognitive processing in favour of evidence-based, or type 2 processing. Likewise, we all have a job to reduce our negative implicit associations of other people by exercising type 2 thinking, as this makes us better people; more capable of exercising objective moral reasoning.
Hormone therapy in Children & Adolescents (read down a bit to see discussion of safety): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0889852919300039?via%3Dihub
Trans identity development: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2013-05866-024
Transgender issues related to healthcare: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15532739.2011.700873
Again, I will be more persuaded by actual medical/psychological evidence than subjective interpretations or anecdotes (& more impressed by your critical reasoning skills!  )
Quote:
Lion said:
It is also a bit inaccurate (I can't recall if this was you or OP - posting from a phone) to say that some of the controversies around transgender people in the lamentably idiotic "American culture wars" are purely stoked by opportunistic or bigoted conservatives. There are plenty of liberals, leftist feminists, etc. who have been involved in criticism. They are usually dismissed as TERFs or another slur, and some small portion of them probably deserve that for arguing in bad faith or out of irrational hatred, but nevertheless they complicate the view that it's just some conservative base-stoking maneuver.
I'm not sure who said this but I fully acknowledge that there is an abundance of transphobia across the political left & right.
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/26/22 10:32 PM)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27752716 - 04/26/22 10:04 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said: Realizing, after medicines prescribed to you as a minor by a physician have rendered you infertile, that you are actually a man after all and would like to have children is serious.
I think it's time for me to start asking people to cite their sources. There have been a lot of bold claims in this thread yet I believe I'm the only one who has shared actual evidence regarding my claims. I've noticed others on this thread have ignored my call to cite their evidence and the specifics of their reasoning, yet they continue to repeat the same ideas which construct a high-barrier culture for trans people.
Please tell me when and where this specific scenario played out. And I encourage you to be critical by looking into the relevant contextual factors (who completed the psychological assessments? Was the clinic well-funded, etc. etc.).
Trans issues are excessively embedded in an ongoing centuries-long moral panic surrounding the existance of trans people (& gender/sexual identities more broadly). You simply cannot expect to reliably argue against trans issues without citing empirical evidence given the ways this moral panic has subordinated discourses on the legitimacy of trans people. It's absurd 
Has anyone here read Foucault's history of sexuality by the way? It's not specific to gender but I feel that it is extremely relevant with regards to the psychosocial dimensions of gender & sexuality alike; it traces the historical genealogy of gender & sexuality in the modern world and addresses the origins of today's non-corporeal forms of social control through heteronormativity (e.g., the ideals of the bourgeois nuclear family or ideals of modern medical institutions & churches; what Foucault addresses as the scientia sexualis). I'd even argue that anyone who has not read Foucault probably is not up to speed on trans topics (or at least is missing a massive piece of the picture)
For a philosophy, sociology and psychology subforum I don't see a lot of genuine philosophy, sociology, or psychology actually being discussed vs. folk-psychology and subjective interpretivism
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/14/23 04:39 PM)
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. *DELETED* [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#27752858 - 04/27/22 01:44 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Lion
Reason for deletion: .
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27752864 - 04/27/22 02:10 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
You can ask but I won't provide any. Tracking down links to various accounts of detrans people will not add substantively to the discussion. If you're as curious and well read on this issue as you appear, you'll know that such cases exist.
My point was that I don't know of any that exist independently of inadequate formal responses by healthcare institutions.
Quote:
Lion said:I don't think there is a centuries-long moral panic. Most of history is probably characterized generally by hostile indifference to people who identify or present themselves as the opposite of their biological sex, which although unfortunate is not the same as a moral panic.
Trans people have only been visible in the dominant culture for the past century or so; what I meant is that there has been an overarching moral panic towards people who deviate from their prescribed normative identities, be it gender or sexuality. Sure, there hasn't been a moral panic for trans people specifically, but the moral panic about gay people or even women gaining liberation has flowed into today's moral panic about trans people. And of course, these moral panics have existed for a long time. Sorry for the confusion (although I think this was somewhat apparent by the rhetoric of my comment to be fair)
Quote:
Lion said:
Foucault was a child molester.
There was one guy who alleged this years later with no victims who have substantiated the claims. I'm not saying it did or didn't happen of course. But to claim that it for sure did happen is preposterous considering the number of people who would benefit greatly by defaming Foucault. Also cancel culture doesn't really hold relevance to this conversation. We still mention Freud in psychology despite him being a raging sexist.
Anyways, Foucault was really just a side point. Lets not derail this conversation into one of whether or not the allegations are true because I don't think anyone really knows.
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/27/22 02:12 AM)
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kreg
Shoebox Enthusiast+
Registered: 09/14/21
Posts: 2,434
Loc: sloosination🏳
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 2
#27752872 - 04/27/22 02:25 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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All of this sounds like some type of joke planted by trolls, seriously. You must all be American too because I could never picture anyone in any other country having this conversation.
Kill your enemies? No no, lets just fuck up their birth rates by convincing them to mutilate their genitals. I genuinely feel horribly sorry for you if the concept of man and woman is this complicated for you.
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. *DELETED* [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#27752891 - 04/27/22 03:35 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Lion
Reason for deletion: .
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27752900 - 04/27/22 04:03 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I told my parents I wanted to be an actress when I was 6 - I was very solemn about it.
eventually I figured out that the word I was really looking for was acrobat.
both words start with 'a'. Fortunately for me not too much karma went into this.
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27752934 - 04/27/22 05:38 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Rest assured transgender children most certainly do exist.
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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I agree, this is true, however I am not sure that hormone treatment and surgery is the wise and compassionate solution.
Again I caution those interested, the doctors in this field are in it for the money and that colors what they say, and how they counsel candidates for their business.
this also afflicts the fertility industry. big time.
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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Literally hormone replacement therapy and gender confirming surgical intervention has been shown empirically time as time again in the overwhelming majority of cases to ease if not fully eliminate feelings of gender dysphoria in the patient.
This is a scientific fact... Not even a new one
Also... What money.
The transgender population is so extraordinarily small and disparate and a fair number of trans people are happy enough with just HRT... Which is literally birth control pills... Which are very inexpensive.
What financial incentive are you referring to specifically?
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
Edited by TheConfluence (04/27/22 05:54 AM)
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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The fact of the matter is that there actually is evidence that this is a physiological trait. A biological mystery that yes we are only beginning to solve be the evidence we continue to compile only further and further indicates that these individuals are not making a choice beyond the choice to hide themselves from all of this adversity.
A fact that didn't care about his feelings
I doubt at this point we can bring it back to the main question which was why are we so afraid to have conversations with our kids about sexuality and the validity of other people who live different lives than we do, but hopefully the thread can serve as an example as to why these things probably should be taught in sex Ed... At an appropriate age... By an impartial professional
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
Edited by TheConfluence (04/27/22 06:09 AM)
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Brian Jones
Club 27
Registered: 12/18/12
Posts: 12,426
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Quote:
TheDirtFarmer said:
Gender is not that complicated. Its basic biology. X and Y chromosome = penis = man. Two Y chromosomes = vagina = woman. I dont care what you do to APPEAR to be the opposite gender, genetically you will always be the gender you were born. Hermaphrodites make it somewhat confusing but im not sure what the chromosome situation is like there.
Not that theres anything wrong with trans people but IMO gender is distinctly biological and not based on feelings.
That's not what gender means, at least for the last 40-50 years. Gender is a social construct. X and Y chromosomes determine your sex.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:...
What financial incentive are you referring to specifically?
fees for prescriptions, referrals, surgeries, counselling, etc.
it's a specialty and a lucrative business - just like fertility medicine and orthodontics and cosmetic surgery.
vultures that prey upon insecurities
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
That's not what gender means, at least for the last 40-50 years. Gender is a social construct. X and Y chromosomes determine your sex.
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363
40-50 years? The definitions in online dictionaries have literally been changed in the last year. I was in a debate last year where I argued that there was a distinction between sex and gender. When told I was wrong I looked the definitions up and found I was wrong.
Edit: that debate was in 2020 so it's been almost two years.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Edited by Rahz (04/27/22 07:26 AM)
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Brian Jones
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz] 1
#27753072 - 04/27/22 08:21 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I studied sociology from 1980 to 1990, so yeah it's been 40-50 years. Not sure how you missed it. Who exactly we're you debating with?
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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon
I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Rahz
Alive Again
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Posts: 9,334
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The debate was with Oldnameforgotten, who is apparently an old man.
I looked up the etymology which indicated gender originally meant "kind". At some point it became synonymous with sex being a word used to indicate the sex of farm animals among others. This was the gist of the definitions webster, online, etc. when I checked them just over a year ago. Perhaps there was a different distinction in the 80's in your sociological studies but the definitions have been modified in dictionaries very recently.
And I suppose, as I believed back then, your usage was geared toward qualities (masculine/feminine) rather than sexual identification. Is that accurate or no?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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kreg
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
Rest assured transgender children most certainly do exist.
ok groomer
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753114 - 04/27/22 09:32 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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If its just a concept, then why do kids need any sort if indoctrination for it? If its natural, and if trans women /men are natural women/men, then why do they need surgery? Why even call them trans?
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753117 - 04/27/22 09:34 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
kreg said:
All of this sounds like some type of joke planted by trolls, seriously. You must all be American too because I could never picture anyone in any other country having this conversation.
Kill your enemies? No no, lets just fuck up their birth rates by convincing them to mutilate their genitals. I genuinely feel horribly sorry for you if the concept of man and woman is this complicated for you.
Haha, I agree it is American to think this way because of the strong emphasis on individual identity. But identity in this way is an evolutionary process, a changing over time to accommodate the needs of a society. Individual identity may feel separate from the needs of the culture but I can assure you that is not the case. And what starts in America usually ends up in most other individualistic countries fairly rapidly. So get used to it
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753127 - 04/27/22 09:40 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Did it ever occur to any of you that the people are "supporting" you are actually trying to encourage you to your doom?
Like I could oppose you, try to save your life maybe and say hey dont cut your dick off! but like, if I hated you and you wanted to do it anyway then gee youd be one easy target
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753132 - 04/27/22 09:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Are you trying to cut your dick off? I'm not. So no, that hasn't occurred to me. My journey is not another's but the only ill intent I personally see is in the demonizing of those who are on a different journey than oneself.
Assuming it is a mistake: we all make mistakes and should be allowed to do so when they do not harm others.
But that's a pretty big assumption from the outside and has evidence against it
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27753143 - 04/27/22 09:47 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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oh you wont listen to logic fine ill just keep sharing memes then
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753145 - 04/27/22 09:48 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I'm interested in your logic.
What makes your view of how I should live my life better than my own?
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27753151 - 04/27/22 09:52 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I thoroughly disbelieve in self harm and suicide. Life is suicide, no need to hasten it.
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753156 - 04/27/22 09:54 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I see. My understanding is that the life inside us is also what kills us. Always. Suicide or otherwise.
But sometimes we want to suffer it more than need be because of fear.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27753167 - 04/27/22 10:02 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Id rather see someone attempt to be a functional heroin addict than go down the trans path. You can recover from heroin.
@kickle imagine if anyone was on here asking about info on how to cut off their arm or leg instead. I hope everyone would be quick to shut them down.
Edited by kreg (04/27/22 10:05 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753171 - 04/27/22 10:07 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Do you know anyone in either situation?
I can only speak from experience but I've known both.
My best friend from childhood was a heroin addict and it led him to feeling so hopeless that while shooting up in a parking lot and seeing cops approaching, he took his own life. Scarring those cops mentally for likely the rest of their lives. He was 25.
He also told me that he felt personally responsible for his dog dying. He said he felt Christ in his dog, protecting him. And it was the first to go. This was around age 17 or 18.
A coworkers brother went through the transition process and is now a woman. She's doing a lot better now and is a productive member of society. After their mom died, she cared for her dad. And once he too passed away she was crucial in dealing with the estate. AKA the responsible one in the family.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27753177 - 04/27/22 10:13 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Sure do, but I dont know any heroin addicts that are trying to permanently physically remove body parts nor do I know any that are eager to indoctrinate children into their lifestyles.
Even if I didnt, you can check out r/phallo and tell me those people are going to live happier than the junkies in r/heroin for instance.
Edited by kreg (04/27/22 10:16 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753179 - 04/27/22 10:15 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Well that's good. I've got nothing against heroin use although I think it is incredibly risky over time and can lead to many unhealthy behaviors. Including selling to others and youngsters.
But I don't see education as indoctrination. Unless people cannot think for themselves. In the age of the internet, there are really no excuses for finding a single viewpoint threatening imo
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27753182 - 04/27/22 10:17 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Well that's good. I've got nothing against heroin use although I think it is incredibly risky over time and can lead to many unhealthy behaviors. Including selling to others and youngsters.
But I don't see education as indoctrination. Unless people cannot think for themselves. In the age of the internet, there are really no excuses for finding a single viewpoint threatening imo
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753186 - 04/27/22 10:20 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I get that you're scared. Really. But it's not scary to me.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27753198 - 04/27/22 10:26 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
I get that you're scared. Really. But it's not scary to me.
Shooting yourself in the foot doesnt hurt me it hurts you. That feeling of care for others that youre struggling to find its called empathy. Not having it is the definition of psychopathic.
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753199 - 04/27/22 10:28 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah I agree. I also think forcing an idea of help onto others, despite clear communication that the help they want is different, is pretty sociopathic in the way it ignores the feelings of the other person.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27753216 - 04/27/22 10:42 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Yeah I agree. I also think forcing an idea of help onto others, despite clear communication that the help they want is different, is pretty sociopathic in the way it ignores the feelings of the other person.
What if a perfectly healthy person wants just plain suicide then? You would support that?
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753221 - 04/27/22 10:45 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I don't think I can stop them if they are committed to the idea. If they are looking to discuss it, then I'm open to discussing it. If they are seeking a particular type of help and I can provide it, I will provide it.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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TheConfluence
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753374 - 04/27/22 01:16 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Why do we give kids meth for a hyperactive disorder?
Feel free to exit whenever you are done flagging yourself as a clown
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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TheConfluence
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753386 - 04/27/22 01:27 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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You clearly have a fundamental lack of understanding on the subject and clearly are only participating as an opportunity to vent some deeply held prejudice...
Which I always think is funny in these moments.
Such a profound and outspoken obsession with transgender people... An unhealthy fixation that clearly has worked it's way deep into your psyche...
Perhaps something else is going on...
Seems to me like perhaps we might be internalizing some feelings about our own relationship to our own gender expression...
Which hilariously brings me back to the main topic of discussion.
If we taught kids even just the very basics about gender and sexuality at the appropriate time... Ie sex education around puberty age... They might not grow up to be so fearfully ignorant and violently hateful
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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Kickle
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Well I think in the end it goes beyond any particular expression and becomes the manifestation of attachment to certain forms.
Transgender people in some ways can open our eyes to the extreme physical change someone can go through externally and then emerge better inside.
Sometimes this is seen in individuals who have gone through accidents or suffer physically debilitating diseases too. It seems hard to believe, but some manage to shine even brighter.
I see this as a good lesson in not assuming meaning needs to look a certain way to still be meaningful.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
Why do we give kids meth for a hyperactive disorder?
it is a mistake really.
both the diagnosis and the treatment.
follow the money again.
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kreg
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Doctors are extremely reluctant to prescribe amphetamines to young people. Very nice strawman attack!
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redgreenvines
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753796 - 04/27/22 06:11 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
kreg said:
Doctors are extremely reluctant to prescribe amphetamines to young people. Very nice strawman attack!
I am happy to be wrong about it, but I do see a fair bit of it being proscribed for tweenagers and up.
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RJ Tubs 202
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27753833 - 04/27/22 06:34 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
kreg said:
Doctors are extremely reluctant to prescribe amphetamines to young people.
Here is some data on what age groups are being prescribed Adderall
0-5 Years = 62,843
6-12 Years = 698,032
13-17 Years = 517,054
18-24 Years = 893,560
25-44 Years = 1,963,914
45-64 Years = 785,635
65 Year + = 72,818
https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/stimulantsideeffects/adderallsideeffects/people-taking-adderall/
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kreg
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Still a strawman regardless, because what difference does that make? Even if all the kids were on adderall are you saying that that is what you want? Are you suggesting its a good thing? What does that have to do with the morality of basically pedophilia?
Kids know about diddlers and shit, why rub their faces in it >.>
Edited by kreg (04/27/22 06:37 PM)
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Rahz
Alive Again
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Posts: 9,334
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TheConfluence said:
You clearly have a fundamental lack of understanding on the subject and clearly are only participating as an opportunity to vent some deeply held prejudice...
Which I always think is funny in these moments.
Such a profound and outspoken obsession with transgender people... An unhealthy fixation that clearly has worked it's way deep into your psyche...
Perhaps something else is going on...
Seems to me like perhaps we might be internalizing some feelings about our own relationship to our own gender expression...
Which hilariously brings me back to the main topic of discussion.
If we taught kids even just the very basics about gender and sexuality at the appropriate time... Ie sex education around puberty age... They might not grow up to be so fearfully ignorant and violently hateful
This should be quoted in the dictionary under ad hominem. 
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Rhizomorph
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27754232 - 04/27/22 09:33 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
I counter that there is no adequate healthcare in this context because the underlying medical condition being treated has not really been demonstrated to exist, and in the unlikely case that a medical condition that is both innate from birth and caused by a socially constructed identity does exist, still the instruments currently brought to bear to ameliorate it are crude and imprecise.
Okay, so your argument all along is that trans people don't exist. Gotcha. Read my past comments re: no experts agreeing with this & the research I shared.
Quote:
Lion said:
Foucault, if I recall correctly, is consistently at or close to the top of most frequently cited authors in the academy. It's a shame because, like Freud, his work has been more harmful than contributory to human knowledge.
Has it? I'm curious which scholarly criticisms of Foucault you're referring to specifically? Most of the legitimate criticisms I've come across appear to further add to/advance post-modernism rather than retract from it. Critical Realism may be the exception, but contemporary literature has discussed a compatibilist approach to Foucault & critical realism. I may also be missing interdisciplinary literature by being in a sociology/psychology bubble as these are what I specialize in. I'm quite curious about this
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/27/22 09:35 PM)
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Lion
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 3
#27754559 - 04/28/22 06:08 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizomorph said:
Quote:
Lion said:
I counter that there is no adequate healthcare in this context because the underlying medical condition being treated has not really been demonstrated to exist, and in the unlikely case that a medical condition that is both innate from birth and caused by a socially constructed identity does exist, still the instruments currently brought to bear to ameliorate it are crude and imprecise.
Okay, so your argument all along is that trans people don't exist. Gotcha. Read my past comments re: no experts agreeing with this & the research I shared.
My argument is that there is no child whose gender identity was born into the wrong body. It is a notion that does not make sense, as even in the trans rights movement's own accounting gender identity is mostly or entirely socially constructed. There are of course biological male children who identify more with femininity and womanhood, and vice versa. There is nothing wrong with that, and the culture should do a lot to be more accepting of that. That doesn't mean those boys and girls actually are the opposite sex, or should receive life-altering medical intervention.
There are of course intersex people and a wide variety of genetic conditions and ways that chromosomes are expressed, etc., but those individuals are only partly related to the discussion of transgender ideology.
Trans adults are people who wish to dissociate themselves from the stereotypes and socially constructed cultural roles associated with their biological sex. It's a matter of their choice not to identify with a socially constructed identity. Not to overly trivialize it, but in terms of ontology it's more akin to being a punk or a feminist than being a lesbian or belonging to a particular ethnic group. Again, I agree there is a lot of progress to be made in acceptance of such people and protection of their right to live with dignity. I don't believe, however, that "trans women are women" in a real ontological sense, as the common propaganda slogan goes. There is no evidence for that at all and nothing you've shared demonstrates it.
--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Lion
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
Why do we give kids meth for a hyperactive disorder?
Well, do you see any overlap in the institutions responsible for children being prescribed adderall and ritalin, and the institutions responsible for diagnosing and treating gender dysphoria? Are the same people involved in both? Are any similar incentives involved in both? Or are they entirely distinct phenomena?
In which case should we trust the experts here?
--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27754607 - 04/28/22 07:09 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
My argument is that there is no child whose gender identity was born into the wrong body. It is a notion that does not make sense, as even in the trans rights movement's own accounting gender identity is mostly or entirely socially constructed.
What is the difference between a seed and a plant? If the seeds for an outcome are present, at what point does the outcome truly exist?
It's a difficult question IMO. Not all seeds germinate. But once a seed is sprouting, what then?
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 2
#27754985 - 04/28/22 11:48 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
Quote:
TheConfluence said:
Why do we give kids meth for a hyperactive disorder?
Well, do you see any overlap in the institutions responsible for children being prescribed adderall and ritalin, and the institutions responsible for diagnosing and treating gender dysphoria? Are the same people involved in both? Are any similar incentives involved in both? Or are they entirely distinct phenomena?
In which case should we trust the experts here?
this is my point
I am not saying that a young child may not have all the signs of what later could flower into a non-binary gender identity.
I am saying however, that we have no way of responsibly engaging a medical intervention before the child comes of age, which is realistically the age of consent, and the time when the law stops protecting children from the dominating influence of adult predation, financial or otherwise.
that the medical + drug + therapy industries are lined up to profit from lifting this protection over children
makes them suspect - their pecuniary position cancels out their expert non-biased opinion. bias is everywhere.
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Kickle
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When is it best to presume a mistake is being made? Aren't mistakes made in retrospect?
What could be the purpose in projecting mistakes into the future? To prevent mistakes that have come before from happening again?
Maybe we really do need more mystery. Be aware of the mind's projections.
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kreg
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27755786 - 04/28/22 09:40 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
When is it best to presume a mistake is being made? Aren't mistakes made in retrospect?
we're discussing "gender assignment" as if it needs to be reevaluated YET 50v50 of males cant even decide if circumcision is right or wrong
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 2
#27756079 - 04/29/22 03:39 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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there is a lot of superstitious belief around sex, life and death.
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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so I'm transgender
Should I just fucking kill myself?
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
so I'm transgender
Should I just fucking kill myself?
Where on earth does this come from?
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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CreonAntigone
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,933
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
so I'm transgender
Should I just fucking kill myself?
Not at all.
You are lucky, if you are trans and you are here, that makes you strong.
Go change the world.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
so I'm transgender
Should I just fucking kill myself?
two spirit integrity has to be good enough for now, as hope in scientific fantasy is hopeless so far.
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kreg
Shoebox Enthusiast+
Registered: 09/14/21
Posts: 2,434
Loc: sloosination🏳
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
so I'm transgender
Should I just fucking kill myself?
Nope. Hey bud I support you and your mental state-- but part of that is supporting you being alive.. You can go back to "cis" right? Thats my unsolicited advice. Be a tomboy, be a "chud" who cares. Develope super wizard powers and make millions of dollars just you know... Cross dressing and stuff it freaks people out and you know that.
I support people having crazy shit in their head,you have to be careful how you act on then though.
I dont know you maybe you were in some sort of catastrophic accident and youre trying to adapt but I dont think thats the case... if Im wrong Im wrong..
I saw a reddit I thought was cool for people in your situation
r/Scrambled_Eggs_IRL they seem like nice folk over there maybe shoot someone a message eh
Love you, God loves you!
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 2
#27756308 - 04/29/22 09:07 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Hope you fucking choke
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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Yeah...
Today is the day I put that .357 she'll in my brain
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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kreg
Shoebox Enthusiast+
Registered: 09/14/21
Posts: 2,434
Loc: sloosination🏳
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I meant absolutely no harm, I wish you wellness, I apologize if something I said was offensive.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: kreg] 1
#27756337 - 04/29/22 09:33 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Not all which is thought or said
is in alignment with what is true.
Do not neglect what is true,
for what is thought or said.
To do so is to surrender to what may be false,
when it is best to surrender to what is true
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
Yeah...
Today is the day I put that .357 she'll in my brain
Please don't do this. There's a lot to live for. This is a debate-oriented forum and emotions can get out of hand. We are not all always at our best. I don't believe anyone here wants you or anyone like you to come to harm, or anything close to it.
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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CreonAntigone
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,933
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Much love the confluence.
I am trans and have been quite a bit meaning to post in this thread. Please, understand that often people are reacting out of lack of knowledge, not necessarily hate. There is hate too, we try to do our best to find it and help deal with it.
But there are many active posters here who are trans, and there will be many many more since I am basically being told that modern elementary classrooms are full of us trans kids. It's not really an unspeakable minority anymore, it's probably way more than .1% nowadays.
This discussion was not meant to cause you harm. We all want the best for you.
Edited by CreonAntigone (04/29/22 02:12 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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the best is that we can be friends, and actually, there is nothing better than enjoying friendships.
alright who likes cribbage!!!
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CreonAntigone
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,933
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
the best is that we can be friends, and actually, there is nothing better than enjoying friendships.
alright who likes cribbage!!!
Even if two people use different pronouns cribbage strategy remains the same.
How do you play?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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kinda like poker, but you deal 6 cards and alternate who is the dealer, the dealer puts 2 cards in his crib which is an EXTRA hand that counts and the non-dealer donates 2 cards to the dealer's crib.
then the nondealer cuts the deck and the card that is cut can be counted in later to each person's hand or crib.
if the cut is a jack the dealer gets 2 points.
before counting hands you play card against card
counting up to 21, which if you hit it is 2 points.
the combinations are 2 points for making 15, 2 points for the same card (pairs),
6 points for 3 of the same card in a row,
and 12 points for 4 cards in the same kind,
then there are straights, 3 4 or 5 card straights that count 3, 4, 5,or 6 (which I think plays out as 21 if it starts at 1, in which case player 1 puts an ace down, player 2 (the dealer) puts a 2, then the nondealer can put a 3 and gets 3 points, and then the dealer might put a 4 down and he gets 4 points for 4 in a row, and then the nondealer might have a 5 and he gets 5 in a row and 2 points for adding up to 15 (so 7pts with that card) but the dealer might have a 6 and if he/she/hir/they does then they get 6 for 8 in a row plus 2 points for hitting 21 and a total of 8 points - it is rare but happens).
if you cant go because nothing in your hand will add to the current play as less than or equal to 21 you say go and the other player gets to go even as they just played a card, and they get a point for go.
after 4 cards each are played out, the non-dealer counts first, the pairs(2pts), the triples (6pts) the quadruples(12pts), the fifteens (2 points each), the straights, and there can be crossovers, straights with fifteens so it is kinda fun that way.
Also if you have a jack of the same suit as the cut you get 1 point.
the game is won by the first person with 121 points.
3 can play by dealing 5 each and one to the crib directly, and 4 can play by dealing 5 each as well each person donating one card to the dealer's crib.
we (wife and I) just write it down on paper but most people use a board and pegs representing steeplechase horses or something.
we usually have 2 games with dinner through most of covid, as social activity has been curtailed.
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27757185 - 04/30/22 01:55 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
My argument is that there is no child whose gender identity was born into the wrong body. It is a notion that does not make sense, as even in the trans rights movement's own accounting gender identity is mostly or entirely socially constructed.
Going off of the diathesis model in psychology (essentially branching nature vs. nurture), our biology determines our proclivities and what we internalize/learn from the external world (society in this case) determines how specifically these proclivities manifest.
Besides you're also ignoring the neuroimaging evidence that trans people have functional network connectivity that doesn't match their body's sex. If you know anything about the default mode network (which you may as it goes offline under the influence of psychedelics; this is why ego-dissolution or "the self" goes offline) you know that the DMN largely constructs our identity. And of course, the precise functional network differences for trans people are across the DMN areas responsible for gender identity. Thus, there is neurobiological evidence that the trans identity/self is inconsistent with their body/chromosomes.
So the point being is that if we are to differentiate sex & gender, the two are related, but they are not objectively co-deterministic. This is precisely why gender is socially constructed; the psychosocial dimension is deterministic, whereas the way gender (as an identity) relates to one's biology (sex) is probabilistic.
Might it perhaps be better to say gender is socially & psychologically constructed while being statistically moderated by our chromosomal sex? Perhaps (but then if you dig deeper into each of these categories the picture is muddied between genetics & epigenetics, different cognitions & neurological correlates, etc. etc.) but then imagine trying to get society to socially accept & normalize this mouthful when there's already a massive stigma against social constructionism alone.
Do I believe the ontology really matters though? not really... it's complicated and less reductionistic than you or I could possibly have the level of specialized knowledge to really be informed on (see: the dunning kruger effect). I think what is more important is that gender dysphoria objectively exists and we have plenty of evidence to show that trans people are better adjusted to dysphoria when we regard them with the classification of "born into the wrong body" (this is really just a figure of speech; I think what it represents is much more complex) and allow hormone therapies.
The main question of this thread - to stay on topic - is not whether trans people exist, but whether adolescent-aged trans people should be able to access hormone therapies. To which I will repeat my point: If the evidence shows it leads to greater quality of life and reduced psychopathology, how the fuck is it relevant whether trans people exist or not? We're getting way ahead of ourselves by relentlessly interrogating the ontology of transgenderism with regards to a question that really only holds clinical relevance.
I'm obviously no expert and I don't think most of the people on this thread are, I just know when I've met people in the psychology and sociology departments at various universities who specialize in trans research they generally support the call to reifying trans identities. Again, because their research shows this has the optimal outcomes
The identity politics are complicated. The solution to trans issues is not. Just be a kind and respectful person and let trans people be the experts on issues pertaining to themselves. Problem solved
This is the same logic we apply to people who use drugs when we advocate for better drug policies & access to psychedelics no?? Aren't you tired of people with 0 personal experience with the harms of drug prohibition making all the decisions?
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/30/22 03:00 AM)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
Yeah...
Today is the day I put that .357 she'll in my brain
Please PM me if you're going through a hard time. I am a safe space. I'm on your side and will hear you out.
The Shroomery & psychedelic community at large are very transphobic spaces. Be sure to pace yourself; fighting transphobia shouldn't have to be a marathon or require you sacrificing your mental health.
There are people such as myself who see you for you. Please don't hesitate to reach out
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#27757228 - 04/30/22 05:51 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizomorph said:
Quote:
Lion said:
My argument is that there is no child whose gender identity was born into the wrong body. It is a notion that does not make sense, as even in the trans rights movement's own accounting gender identity is mostly or entirely socially constructed.
Going off of the diathesis model in psychology (essentially branching nature vs. nurture), our biology determines our proclivities and what we internalize/learn from the external world (society in this case) determines how specifically these proclivities manifest.
Besides you're also ignoring the neuroimaging evidence that trans people have functional network connectivity that doesn't match their body's sex. If you know anything about the default mode network (which you may as it goes offline under the influence of psychedelics; this is why ego-dissolution or "the self" goes offline) you know that the DMN largely constructs our identity. And of course, the precise functional network differences for trans people are across the DMN areas responsible for gender identity. Thus, there is neurobiological evidence that the trans identity/self is inconsistent with their body/chromosomes.
So the point being is that if we are to differentiate sex & gender, the two are related, but they are not objectively co-deterministic. This is precisely why gender is socially constructed; the psychosocial dimension is deterministic, whereas the way gender (as an identity) relates to one's biology (sex) is probabilistic.
Might it perhaps be better to say gender is socially & psychologically constructed while being statistically moderated by our chromosomal sex? Perhaps (but then if you dig deeper into each of these categories the picture is muddied between genetics & epigenetics, different cognitions & neurological correlates, etc. etc.) but then imagine trying to get society to socially accept & normalize this mouthful when there's already a massive stigma against social constructionism alone.
Do I believe the ontology really matters though? not really... it's complicated and less reductionistic than you or I could possibly have the level of specialized knowledge to really be informed on (see: the dunning kruger effect). I think what is more important is that gender dysphoria objectively exists and we have plenty of evidence to show that trans people are better adjusted to dysphoria when we regard them with the classification of "born into the wrong body" (this is really just a figure of speech; I think what it represents is much more complex) and allow hormone therapies.
The main question of this thread - to stay on topic - is not whether trans people exist, but whether adolescent-aged trans people should be able to access hormone therapies. To which I will repeat my point: If the evidence shows it leads to greater quality of life and reduced psychopathology, how the fuck is it relevant whether trans people exist or not? We're getting way ahead of ourselves by relentlessly interrogating the ontology of transgenderism with regards to a question that really only holds clinical relevance.
I'm obviously no expert and I don't think most of the people on this thread are, I just know when I've met people in the psychology and sociology departments at various universities who specialize in trans research they generally support the call to reifying trans identities. Again, because their research shows this has the optimal outcomes
The identity politics are complicated. The solution to trans issues is not. Just be a kind and respectful person and let trans people be the experts on issues pertaining to themselves. Problem solved
This is the same logic we apply to people who use drugs when we advocate for better drug policies & access to psychedelics no?? Aren't you tired of people with 0 personal experience with the harms of drug prohibition making all the decisions?
many of your points make sense. even if the DMN is a fallacy, I think that the evidence is mounting that each of us is living life through a different overall connectivity [specifically the dendritic trees and pyramidal axon branches that make all the connections for memory and perception which grow into white matter like fungal hyphae infiltrating the cortex during brain development] which is so vast and complex that random fibre linkages prevail in an overall way similar, but not ever the same between any 2 people. The minority of neuron wiring provides direct connection of the senses (similar for all of us) but the connectivity maps, the connectomes, seem to be very different, and mostly it does not matter too much, but it does mean we are all and each perceiving differently, not determined genetically, and not fully by conditioning either, but developmentally as well, and you could say that that is the journey.
this plagues the search for a definitive human connectome, and belies the accuracy of brain scan evidence except for general activation areas.
what it means is that two people facing the same body (identical twins) will perceive the world somewhat differently, and while genetically identical, are vastly different with regard to their interconnecting axon fibre mesh in the brain. (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnana.2014.00053/full)
eg.
 (LSD means lateral segment dorsal in this diagram)
so if we are to have a theory of gender, it must accommodate the range of reflex perceptive responses that arise, and accept that naturally arising perceptions are natural hence normative, although traditional forms in society which seem normative are actually tribal and exclusive and we have to get past that to find our ways in life.
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Yellow Pants
Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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There is an issue of gender identification being different from sex when that gender ID wants to assert itself onto reality when that reality is based in a competitive environment that is subject to the reality of sex and the differences between men and women. Gender is mental.
It goes both ways. Trans folk often fail to understand the mentality that is gender and mistake it for a reality. Like trans women competing with sexual women. I think in cases when there is not a competitive context in makes no difference integrating trans with their ideal sex, but when it's competitive and their are real benefits and drawbacks to being a sexual man or women then it becomes problematic and not enjoyable.
What is a competitive environment and what isn't. Sports are obvious where there is a physical and professional situation. But it seems like the concept of competition can be applied to a lot more and here I get confused.
Maybe there is something to letting the mind rule the body and if there are inefficiencies in reality because of it then so be it. Or maybe not.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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clearly lots of push back with the boundaries on this class of issues.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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It is always futile to push against what is real. Reality does not bend to such a will. What is real does not kneel to unreal desires in opposition.
Advocates against transgender individuals fail to see the real for their own unreal desires. And that results in suffering.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Although somewhat off topic, I encourage you to try to explain in laypersons terms what the figure you shared represents. To anyone without experience in cognitive neuroscience all we can retrieve from it is that the brain has many complex networks. If this is what you intend to communicate, great. But, without explanation, I'm not sure if you expect other users to understand the figure or not. In any case, a short explanation that avoids jargon to the extent possible may be helpful so the figure doesn't seem misplaced. Feel free to take my advice or leave it though; this is not super relevant for the overall thread
Anyways, I believe I understand what you're trying to get at for the most part, and having some experience in psychology I can relatively understand the figure. I definitely agree that the mission to find a centralized human identity does not exist.
Even as the DMN goes offline, the senses remain intact; evidently so does episodic and semantic memory given the way hallucinations manifest through language, landscapes, and other sensory experiences based on the brains working model of reality. Yet, we can still compartmentalize to some extent (this is ultimately what cognitive neuroscience does anywho; computers and their various compartmentalized hardware & software system has long been an analogy for cognitive psychology).
We know that without the mediating role of DMN, the brain switches rapidly and randomly (entropically if you will) between imposing its priors and admitting the raw evidence of the senses. So I think it is fair to regard the DMN as an executive centre responsible for mediating the integration of external data between other systems to create a stable pattern of consciousness (I.e., the 'self' construct). Perhaps a better way may be to just regard psychedelics as randomizing the self rather than abolishing it? But is it really a true "self" if it is random? Identities, personalities, etc. require some sense of stability, and a temporal stream of consciousness (to quote William James) for the identity to remain stable from one point in time to the next.
Regardless, we know something drastic happens with identity and the DMN. We have more reason to believe that male-female functional connectivity differences in the DMN are due to gender identity than another explanation (not that I think there's really many other explanations). Even the idea that there is no centralized location of identity in the brain ignores the fact that functional networks are not a single location; memory may involve many areas of the brain but you cant experience them without the hippocampus. Thus, if someone has hippocampus abnormalities we can reliably say their memory is altered. Likewise, just because identity may not perfectly match the DMN, we know that it is a necessary criterion for identity (or at least what I referred to before as a stable stream of consciousness that is predictable & able to navigate objective space)
Do I think there is some variability given overlap with other biological systems? Probably... But the extent to which we balance scientific categories being overly reductionistic with the practical limitations of having no category has always been the question of applied sciences. We can always improve by learning more, but I believe the current data only lets us paint a picture as broad as the DMN activity being necessary for one to recognize their gender identity.
I challenge you to smoke 100mg of DMT and try to identify what your own gender is 
Edited by Rhizomorph (05/02/22 11:23 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 2
#27758330 - 05/01/22 02:44 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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i would not be binary, that's for sure
I am not sure why I posted that picture except that I keep reading and finding evidence that the exact wiring of each neuron is not the same for all of us and can not be.
the general position of centers eg vision, proprioception etc is solid, even the route from retina to cortex or from big toe to cortex is fixed and the same for each, but the part that does memory and perception is in the many random branched axon contacts between those fixed cells. A mesh is formed as if that were the last part in the careful placement of primary neurons, like tree roots or mushroom hyphae, you cannot predict where the tiny fibres will end up.
this may indicate that when our eyes see the same thing it is really the same, but what our mesh of connections holds onto from the scene or later perceives can be very different. critically we need to have enough connections, and that is biologically achieved, while some pixels will tend to be sharp while others always a bit cloudy. this would apply to language, ideation, physical coordination, etc.
for this reason, I am a bit hesitant to accept gross evaluations based upon DMN which I think may just be a least suppressed set of centers and a much generalized pattern of activity. possibly more of a pattern of rhythms which we are successfully using as our personal background activity timing web. more of a metronome than a measure of mental content.
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CreonAntigone
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,933
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Gender is a way of seeing or being. A badge, or a mirror.
Trans people feel stuck in a parallax view -
a house of mirrors, the sides turned against each other.
We want to see our true gender, repeatedly we seek the truth and fail.
Even if you don't understand and aren't a fan, support the pronouns and names. If you had a new haircut, wouldn't you want your friends to compliment it?
Trans people need compliments on their new haircuts. Even if it's actually an ugly haircut, throw that girl or guy a compliment on it. The new haircut shows effort.
Any new gender-related activity shows effort and a desire for betterness.
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27758918 - 05/01/22 03:50 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Advocates against transgender individuals fail to see the real for their own unreal desires.
I doubt there are a large number of people who could be honestly labeled "anti-transgender" or "trans-phobic". I think most people don't have a problem with it. Most people are too consumed in their own lives to care. If I identified as an Eskimo or a mongoose, I doubt anyone would mind.
It's the way it's being shoved down everyone's throats. And why would anyone be proud of their sexual identity or preferences? The LGBTQIA+ acronym seems to be an attempt to create a victim class. As if all of these people are being oppressed. As if a gay man, a lesbian, a bisexual, and a trans really have anything in common?!
Many people practice sodomy. Imagine if they flew flags that declared their pride of practicing sodomy and wanted representation in business and politics and wanted to advance their movement - spreading the word that sodomy is a normal practice and shouldn't be stigmatized. And kids need to be taught that it's normal. Nobody should be ashamed of sodomy. There should be safe places to protect people who practice sodomy. And anti-discrimination laws so they're not shut out of job opportunities.
People who objected to such a mass movement shouldn't be assumed to be "against sodomy" or "sodomy-phobic"
Bizarre situations often call for weird analogies. I think this one has some merit.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Quote:
CreonAntigone said:
Gender is a way of seeing or being. A badge, or a mirror.
Trans people feel stuck in a parallax view -
a house of mirrors, the sides turned against each other.
We want to see our true gender, repeatedly we seek the truth and fail.
Even if you don't understand and aren't a fan, support the pronouns and names. If you had a new haircut, wouldn't you want your friends to compliment it?
Trans people need compliments on their new haircuts. Even if it's actually an ugly haircut, throw that girl or guy a compliment on it. The new haircut shows effort.
Any new gender-related activity shows effort and a desire for betterness.
the raw immediacy with which you describe this really hits home.
I promise to be on it with hair compliments.
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,369
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I think that some LGBTQIA2+ people tend to contradict themselves in regard to how inclemently they promote the idea that gender shouldn't matter and should easily be accepted, only to harp on about it continuously.
I have this view because I couldn't give a hoot what gender someone is, I think people with bigotted views are upset by other people having happy relationships, and unfortunately that gender fluid individuals do face a lot of hate and therefore maintain the circle of trying to employ the necessity of accepting gender fluidity.
I accept there is gender fluidity, I couldn't care less anymore, I've never told someone I was male, I haven't felt the need. I think that if some people are meeting you can share your gender and if they accept you for you then that's great and if not then you're strong boundaries should tell you to move on imo.
My only tripe on the whole issue is that transitioned women have gone through a testosterone fuelled puberty and developed greater muscles mass than they otherwise would have. So when we say that someone competing in a sport has equal testosterone to their opponents, I don't think that really is the issue, because it's the development due to puberty that I think makes the difference.
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,369
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For someone to use sodomy seven times in once response I imagine they'd have to have something up their ass!
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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CreonAntigone
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,933
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
I doubt there are a large number of people who could be honestly labeled "anti-transgender" or "trans-phobic". I think most people don't have a problem with it. Most people are too consumed in their own lives to care. If I identified as an Eskimo or a mongoose, I doubt anyone would mind.
How about the people who are trying to tell us we can't use the bathroom we want?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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we don't want those stinky washrooms anyway
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
I doubt there are a large number of people who could be honestly labeled "anti-transgender" or "trans-phobic". I think most people don't have a problem with it. Most people are too consumed in their own lives to care.
I think anyone who denies transphobia is clueless about implicit associations. Your comment implies prejudices are voluntary/conscious.
I strongly encourage you to read up on implicit bias on the Project Implicit webpage I shared above. It is a very popular test/research project in the field of social psychology (most introductory social psych courses teach it) and is funded by Harvard. I think it does a lot of justice to undermine this common belief that most people are indifferent or neutral towards marginalized groups; the personal is political, precisely because our individual implicit psychology is embedded in symbolic internationalism and thus the overarching culture, structure, and social domination (social conflict).
You can fully intend to be a trans ally (consciously) while still implicitly associating trans people with negative and fearful things. Research has also demonstrated that the average person responds with neurophysiological markers of stress and anxiety when confronted with trans people or topics related to trans identity politics.
So just because the average person does not consciously care, transphobia is very fitting to describe the implicit/unconscious domain of our social psychology and the cultures that stem from it, whether or not we give trans people/topics the time of day.
I can't pinpoint exactly where it exists as dominant cultures have the power of plausible deniability with regards to individual interactions, but I am certain that this thread is abundant in transphobia. Statistically speaking, the ways ideas have been presented in this thread seem extremely unlikely to me were transphobia not a piece of the picture. Of course I can't prove this but can only offer up the population-level research on implicit associations and cultural manifestations of implicit bias. With the exception of a few drug-related topics, the Shroomery is still very mainstream in this sense.
Edited by Rhizomorph (05/03/22 01:21 AM)
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Rhizomorph
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I'm not sure how the unpredictability of neuronal migration within networks is entirely relevant to the functional classification of the overall network. Assuming this is what you're saying?
I know you've mentioned in past threads that you have some issues with fMRI. But just as you don't have to know binary code to determine the function of a software program (or even its various functions), you don't need to be able to track every axon to determine the functional activity of a network. Same could be said for individual transistors vs. a hard drive: it would be silly to say that we can't determine that the hard drive is responsible for storing data long term just because we cant trace that data back to the individual transistor. As long as the relationship between the construct (identity) and the neuronal configuration/activity demonstrates sufficient discriminant and convergent validity with empirically validated measures of gender identity, I believe the predictive power of the study is sufficient to conclude there are functional networks that are co-deterministic (or at least co-varying) with gender.
I suppose it may not be fair to say that the DMN is entirely responsible for gender (I was mainly just trying to connect the idea to something psychedelic people might connect with  ), but it certainly plays a role given the discrimination between trans women and cis men's DMN's in the study I shared before (+ other networks) indicating sufficient discriminant validity. There's plenty of other research documenting similar differences across gender & functional network connectivity, much of which was cited in the introduction of that study.
Regardless, the relevant takeaway is that gender has neurological roots beyond just chromosomes
Edited by Rhizomorph (05/03/22 02:04 AM)
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sudly
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#27760861 - 05/03/22 02:19 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I once made out with someone before they had began hormone therapy, we were going to take it further but he was a he and for me he was a she, but it made me see that he did truly see not a she but a he.
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#27760908 - 05/03/22 04:43 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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@rhizomorph
I am not talking about migration as much as I am talking about development of each individual axon branch of each interconnecting pyramidal neuron - however suffice it to say that once out brains develop, what is retained and what is perceived is different for each of us - and it is really true. (BTW, one word to describe this development is rhizomorphic)
Also I see lots of good work done with non-DMN correlations of brain activity. Even though each significant perceptive reflex is in the 1/10 of a second range of granularity, and the scans are more in the 2 second min range of granularity the confirmation of kinds of mental activity for each area of the brain is good, when the separation of functional correlates are clear for the specific brain region.
DMN generalizations, IMO, are too vague and can be made to say whatever the interpreter wants. Sure there is some ongoing spatially integrated proprioception, some ongoing defensive routines related to identified dangers, some monitoring of different kinds of trajectories, and some kind of inner dialog, and or, interpretation of surrounding voices and activity as well as general mood - all there in the DMN. But it is not in itself a network separate from any other clearly interconnected sets of brain regions. Instead it is the basic business of being alive, awake but not too awake, the common, the mundane.
Should the mundane be different between normies and trans people, well this is an area of investigation that itself is full of prejudice. the tolerance window has to be wider than normies vs. trans, and regardless how normie some people may seem we are all different. Usually apparent normie behavior is defensive habits in which the individuals of the herd shuffle in step with their neighbours. That is the DMN in a nutshell, perhaps, our inner herd sense from our toes to our nose and half asleep at the wheel.
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Ferdinando
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ah that might be why meditation is good because we are more awake there and that carries over into the rest of our lives
because of how it changes us
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Rhizomorph
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Ah I think I understand a bit better what you're getting at now. Perhaps I need to read more about functional network connectivity and the DMN. It is a very broad network so you make a good point that it can be over-specified to multiple functions.
As I said, regardless of the specifics of DMN discrimination between trans & cis people, the study I shared is certainly evidence of the whole "born into the wrong body" (at least based on the authors' assessments of the data) idea as trans people have brains that correspond with the typical brains of their opposite chromosomal sex. The authors discuss this across various networks (including global & more specified networks) This is the discriminant/convergent validity piece I was talking about; functional network activity appears convergent with the opposite chromosomal sex & disciminant towards their own chromosomal sex.
It's not a simple picture but the purpose of my comments is really just to undermine gender/chromosomal essentialism. Whether the picture is muddied or not, the picture demonstrates that chromosomal sex doesn't suffice and at least some very strong evidence of "being born into the wrong body"
Edited by Rhizomorph (05/03/22 01:07 PM)
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CreonAntigone
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So much negativity came out of this thread. And it shows that the topic 'what is gender' is a tough one, when it can cause grief to the poster of the thread.
I want to interact with just the thread, not the drama - I didn't get the chance yet to interact with the lovely thread that started it.
Quote:
TheConfluence said:
In the years that followed the, "the lady in the stall next to me has a suspicious sounding stream" panic of 2016, many of the most outspoken opposition became violently radicalized against the notion of gender being more complex that "dick or no dick"... And they became inextricably obsessed with particularly transgender women.
"They'll molest my daughter at the Target super center and I just can't let that happen"... But this had never before... Nor has yet to happen. The opposition was literally brawling a straw man... Many continue to do so to this day.
Actually, trans people are much more likely to suffer attacks in the bathroom than be victims of them. One could identify one or two trans perpetrators, as with any identity group, but it is the same percent as with any population. So trans people are as likely to be attackers as anyone else; they are far far more vulnerable and likely to be victims in the bathroom.
So unfortunately these bills are setting people up to be attacked. It is saying that trans people, even those who present well and would be out of place in a men's bathroom, should still go to the men's bathroom. It is a dangerous bill.
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Today a more egregious assault is being mounted against the transgender community but this time conservatives have taken aim at a group they know they can certainly out argue... Literal Children. Conservatives have decided that if a child never learns that transgender people exist... Then they will never become transgender. A hilariously small minded perspective but nonetheless one that has purchased an enormous swath of real estate in the minds of these people entirely rent free. False narratives proliferate the political battle field, "they're groomers", "they're indoctrinating", "they're abusing our children"...
This is actually an attempt to erase trans people from the culture. They remove education about them. It actually will be to no effect unless they ban grassroots discussion of it, though.
They may well have helped the trans movement by making it 'cool' now. It'll be an outlaw thing to wear a skirt. Will 'cis' people starting wearing skirts as signs of rebellion? Is that manly? Someone do the gender math: a cis man wears a skirt to school to protest anti-trans laws. It is manly, bravely, he is facing down opposition. But he also makes a convincing woman.
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The gestalt perspective is fairly simple... Transgender people exist... They are healthier and have better mental and physical health outcomes when they are able to begin transitioning earlier in life...
Yes. And 'begin transitioning' need not be using hormones. Any therapy that helps a person feel comfortable is transitioning. This is what is misrepresented in the media. They say that hormones are an extremely solution, but they don't realize the less extremely solutions are other kinds of care that reduce dysphoria, such as social support in meeting a new gender role.
Basically the problem is conservatives have the wrong idea of transitioning. They want the trans kid to 'snap out of it' and meet the demands of their birth gender role. The trans kids really wants to move on and learn to present their gender, to start being seen as they really want.
Hormones may not be necessary; maybe clothes alone would work. Do these new laws make it illegal for a guy to wear a skirt?
Quote:
Bring it up once or twice during sex education, something more or less all children in public education are taught anyways and maybe help a troubled child feel a little bit safer and better about possibly having some very different feelings about their body.
Yes, during education is when it would be natural to bring them up. Republicans always want to stop people from learning about their bodies.
Quote:
What defines gender to you?
Gender is a show. It is how we present. Specifically, it also defines how we present in the two human sexual types. It is indeed a spectrum although it gravitates around those two.
Masculine people want to be seen as masculine, and feminine people want to be seen as feminine. There are ridiculous
interactions between these types of people, and they drive the human race forward.
Traditionalists say that only those born with an xx chromosome can be feminine. They are now passing laws so that people can't learn alternative ways of gender expression.
I understand that many of you don't 'get' the trans movement, but you surely don't agree with the traditionalists that we need to censor all information in the classroom to fit a narrow view of gender, decided by this cluster of aged 60-plus-aged white dudes?
Quote:
What is a man?
What is a woman?
Man and Woman are signals or badges. They are points of pride: a man wants to be proud of being a man, and show the attributes of a man, manliness, but each man has a different and unique manliness.
Each woman similarly has her own womanliness, and skills she just learned from her gender. A trans woman posted once that she learned cooking skills from estrogen - that's believable. This same trans woman started living stay-at-home with her boyfriend, a traditional feminine role. The hormone may or may not have had anything to do with that, but it may have made all the difference.
Hormones are a flavor or spice.
Traditionalists say that trans people can't have their hormones. But they aren't raising their fists at non-trans people taking artificial testosterone to live more youthfully. Trans people just want hormones for basic instructions on how to live as a gender, and yet the use of the hormone by those who are 80 is seen as more praiseworthy by these traditionalists -
- many of these traditionalists are one hormones themselves. They violate their own credo about artificial hormones and take loads of them. So they are pumped full of artificial male vitality. When that is the case, they cannot defame us or criticize us for being on anabolic steroids.
If they hated trans people so much, let them pass a law banning anabolic steroids. They wouldn't, as it'd quickly hinder themselves.
We need to get the controversy with children sorted out: whether they can take hormones, if so how much and in what cases. We need better understanding of care for adults. We need more study.
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***Context: I am a BA psychologist considering taking the leap of faith into a PhD in endocrinology***
You are strong. You'll make it.
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Rahz
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If sharing concerns and contrary opinions is negative, one might ask whether that's a bad thing. The alternative being an absence of debate on the subject.
And the person you're defending was the one who launched an ad hominem attack. And while I don't like kicking someone when they're down, crying suicide in the middle of a debate certainly tends to change the nature of the exchange in regards to what's responsible or acceptable. It's something I've dealt with in person. Never when things are calm and one is sharing their thoughts and feelings. Always in the middle of a debate, to be used as leverage. Manipulative.
A biological man cannot be a biological woman. No amount of surgery or hormones will change that. Certainly, care in the form of affirming a person's delusions will result in them feeling content for the moment and a sustained affirmation will sustain the content.
The concern is that transitioning is not without consequence, loss of natural hormone expression, reliance on drugs, loss of the ability to father or mother children. Instead of celebrating the idea that whole classrooms are discovering they are transgender, perhaps we should start looking at the possible causative reasons why males are apparently becoming more feminine and want to be biological women? And maybe try to fix it?
I mean, if it's just personal expression that's fine, but what if it was pollution of some kind? Endocrine disruptors in the water? The credit card worth of plastic we consume each year? Or the effect of overpopulation? There's no good reason we should restrict discussion of this phenomena to personal choice and feelings.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz] 1
#27762622 - 05/04/22 10:16 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Always in the middle of a debate, to be used as leverage. Manipulative.
Maybe. It's a part of growth. One does not ultimately need to fight. But when one is fighting, one of the most harmless ways to defend is to use the energy coming at you against itself.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 2
#27762677 - 05/04/22 11:07 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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well we have to keep an open mind about this whole biological man thing and even what that necessarily means.
i.e. if you mean that all cells that have y chromosomes belong to a man, then what if nanite robots have removed them or added them.
what seems unlikely today could be reality tomorrow. meantime early adopters of all these procedures are willing guinea pigs.
acknowledging how people feel and accepting how important some things are to them is where we are at now.
I think we all have the right to feel how we feel and be recognized for that.
that is the starting position.
and here we are at the beginning.
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Kickle
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Yeah. I see no rush. Feeling rushed is actually a cause of suffering. Restlessness. To rest is the superior way.
Resting allows clarity to emerge. Rushing towards something sacrifices the mind by engaging with that something. Even still, there are moments where force needs to be applied when the clarity is there.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
well we have to keep an open mind about this whole biological man thing and even what that necessarily means.
i.e. if you mean that all cells that have y chromosomes belong to a man, then what if nanite robots have removed them or added them.
what seems unlikely today could be reality tomorrow. meantime early adopters of all these procedures are willing guinea pigs.
acknowledging how people feel and accepting how important some things are to them is where we are at now.
I think we all have the right to feel how we feel and be recognized for that.
that is the starting position.
and here we are at the beginning.
What about causation? You're talking about injecting nanobots to remove half a person's DNA. This is a good path forward if it turned out to be an environmental pollutant? Mercury is an endocrine disruptor. We've been putting it in light bulbs for decades like it's magic dust and everyone is going to properly dispose of it. Then there's lead, fire retardants, BPA, and many others. And the hormones infecting the water supply, in large part due to farming animals.
This never comes up in these types of discussions in sympathy towards trans people. Shouldn't it?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz]
#27762796 - 05/04/22 12:37 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Yes one should work to be aware of root cause. But it's not good to assume. Even with regards to physical illness, I would contend our perceptions of root cause are often misinformed.
I think of yoga here. Know your own body and pay attention to it yourself. Your personal movements will help you to do this. No one else can tell you what health or illness is. It's up to you.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
Alive Again
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27762837 - 05/04/22 12:56 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes one should work to be aware of root cause. But it's not good to assume.
Rarely is there a mention of or questioning whether the chemicals we subject ourselves to are causative of it. It's not like there's no science behind the idea. We know these chemicals cause intersex issues when tested on animals. Yet often the same people who want to affirm the transgender movement are the same people who rail against corporate pollution and greed. But when it comes to making a connection between them, suggesting more research needs to be done, considering such a hunch might lead to some science that would validate what many of these trans individuals are experiencing, not a peep or worse angry words. The actual science that's done in this regard is often ridiculed and the scientists are ridiculed for their semantics when discussing the issue.
Why is that?
Instead we should assume that trans people are perfectly natural? Because that seems to be the gist of the movement. Any suggestion to the contrary seems to be frowned upon by advocates.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz]
#27762855 - 05/04/22 01:03 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Well I guess I could rephrase my post to say that I don't want to assume. I'm not informed on it either way. And since it doesn't impact me personally, I would seriously hesitate to make any assumptive claims.
I'm more focused on my own maladies when they arise. And if someone wants to pursue investigations into their own I would encourage them to.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz]
#27762952 - 05/04/22 01:59 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I think that poisons are definitely connected to industrial pollution, and externalization of responsibility by corporations, however the two spirit nature of man has been known for thousands of years - well prior to root causes, unless you want to blame potatoes.
anyway, the y chromosome is 1/46th of the the total not half of our chromosomes, although, it would be by some future technology that I am alluding to in which nanite machines pull down our genes, no more real than time travel at this point, but much more possible.
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Rahz
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I don't suppose things are as they were thousands of years ago.
How about future technology that helps people feel comfortable in the body they were born with? I mean, as long as we're dreaming.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Rhizomorph
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz]
#27763005 - 05/04/22 03:04 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
And while I don't like kicking someone when they're down, crying suicide in the middle of a debate certainly tends to change the nature of the exchange in regards to what's responsible or acceptable. It's something I've dealt with in person. Never when things are calm and one is sharing their thoughts and feelings. Always in the middle of a debate, to be used as leverage. Manipulative.
If the research on preventing suicidality suggests anything is that no matter the circumstances suicidal ideation should be taken seriously. Calling someone manipulative only leads to further ostracization and alienation and trans people already experience significantly higher rates of suicide due to social alienation.
It is extremely rare in the research literature for people to indicate suicidal intentions due to anti-social reasons of the sort you describe (perhaps if they had a personality disorder, but judging by OP's demeanor & the rarity of antisocial PD, I seriously doubt this). More often, suicidal intent is legitimate and/or represents an underlying psychological problem that stems from social ostracization in the first place; emotional warmth and conflict resolution (e.g., person-centered interpersonal styles & principles of non-violent communication) has been shown to be the optimal response, regardless of if it makes you uncomfortable; it can be uncomfortable to switch topics when we become attached to the "debate". Indeed, debates are often assumed to be impersonal, but if you practice some empathy it should be obvious that for trans people these topics are entirely personal as they are the ones who face the consequences of how you and I discuss them (& produce/reproduce dominant cultural attitudes towards them and so on).
So with all due respect, all you're doing is kicking them while their down. I know this isn't your intention but I encourage you to reflect on how you respond to suicidality. I get that you want things to be calm and collected but the unfortunate reality is that people suffer from suicidal ideation and calling them manipulative when the latent reason has more to do with a "cry for help" in the face of ongoing social ostracization is really just going to bolster the problem.
Being able to shift conversational styles as needed to respect the importance of competing virtues (the drive for information in the cognitive domain vs. the urgent need to be warm and accepting of people experiencing suicidal ideation & mental health problems more broadly) is key to both emotional & social intelligence.
Empathy goes a long way
Edited by Rhizomorph (05/04/22 03:10 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz]
#27763033 - 05/04/22 03:26 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
I don't suppose things are as they were thousands of years ago.
How about future technology that helps people feel comfortable in the body they were born with? I mean, as long as we're dreaming.
we tried that and it didn't work - what goes up must come down.
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Kickle
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
I doubt there are a large number of people who could be honestly labeled "anti-transgender" or "trans-phobic". I think most people don't have a problem with it. Most people are too consumed in their own lives to care. If I identified as an Eskimo or a mongoose, I doubt anyone would mind.
It's the way it's being shoved down everyone's throats. And why would anyone be proud of their sexual identity or preferences? The LGBTQIA+ acronym seems to be an attempt to create a victim class. As if all of these people are being oppressed. As if a gay man, a lesbian, a bisexual, and a trans really have anything in common?!
Well I think it can be fun to look at this from a different viewpoint.
If I don't want people to pay attention to trans people, because it's insignificant, then why would I use every mouthpiece I can to talk about it? Like putting a megaphone up and asking what a school would like the world to know should be taught. But then saying it shouldn't be taught.
It's a cosmic joke. The megaphone informs so many more than a single or even a thousand schools ever could. So maybe you're right, seeing through the outward appearance reveals something very different occurring. It's providing relevant information for those who need it in a very broad way.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Rahz
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 3
#27763199 - 05/04/22 05:29 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizomorph said:
So with all due respect, all you're doing is kicking them while their down.
Thought it might be useful to bring up. Not something I would say directly in the heat of the moment but a potential good to be able to acknowledge. I don't want anyone to kill themselves over identity issues. However, suggesting it in the middle of a debate is not helpful in advancing the cause of free and open speech/disagreement. Pointing out logical fallacies is a reasonable thing to do in a philosophically oriented forum. I suppose, to some degree, that learning about these "rules" is an avenue in which to learn to take it all less personally, and to dish it out less so as well. I think that might prove to be good for self esteem. I have found it useful.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Rahz
Alive Again
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
we tried that and it didn't work
So more like time travel than nanobots reengineering living cells?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rahz] 1
#27763260 - 05/04/22 06:14 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
However, suggesting it in the middle of a debate is not helpful in advancing the cause of free and open speech/disagreement. Pointing out logical fallacies is a reasonable thing to do in a philosophically oriented forum.
Somebody saying they're going to kill themselves is not some sort of attempt at a rebuttal or an attack on free speech
Get yourself out of this strange purist debating mindset that views emotion and actual human suffering as some sort of logical fallacy... Suicide is not a logical phenomenon and that's exactly the point: you're contributing to the problem by expecting a logical response from someone who is suicidal and then villainizing them (calling them manipulative) based on this expectation.
It comes across as cold and unsympathetic towards real experiences of suffering
And I thought psychedelics were supposed to make people more empathetic
Edited by Rhizomorph (05/05/22 01:21 AM)
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Kickle
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#27763267 - 05/04/22 06:21 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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What is suicide? And who can actually provide the help?
It's good to want to help others if they ask for it. But I think assuming someone needs help before they ask is jumping the gun. If someone can only ask for help in veiled ways, life will always feel unhelpful.
It's one thing to ask for help. It's another to say suicide. Not all who contemplate or commit suicide are doing so because they want others to see a cry for help. That just happens to be what you see. Maybe because of a strong fear of death.
Openness does not equate to a lack of empathy. Quite the opposite. It is open arms to whatever you bring, no judgement.
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Rahz
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 2
#27763285 - 05/04/22 06:44 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Pointing out how an action is manipulative isn't villainizing. If that were the case we would all be villains. My expectations may not be what you think they are, but who knows what a person is capable of?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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What is most frustrating to read here is the volume of dehumanizing language... It's very clear that transgender people are not human in your eyes.
The other frustrating thing is that my intention for this thread was to discuss the insanity that you people are subjecting your children to in school but that was out right ignored.
Finally, many of you completely ignored the discourse and just took the opportunity to spew hate speech and intolerance.
I understand know why so many people overtly hate the psychidelic community... And I can say with confidence now that I too hate the movement at large.
I hope you get a bad dose and have a stroke honestly
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27763776 - 05/04/22 11:50 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I think you're both (@Rahz & Kickle) overlooking the actual content of my comment. My only point is that we shouldn't be dismissive of suicide because emotional warmth does far more help and the research shows that it is rarely done for antisocial purposes (contrary to the claim made)...
Whether intentional or not, I hope you can recognize the strawman fallacy at play here and tend to the relevant material.
Or we can keep discussing the specific language I used ("cry for help" & "villainizing") despite it being hardly relevant to the overall point I made which is rooted in evidence: Best practice when working with suicidal behaviour and self-harm
Quote: "Key features of good care, such as being non- judgemental, genuine, respectful, empathetic, and listening may help to alleviate suicidal distress by promoting a sense of connection and being cared for, and inspiring hope. Such positive interactions may also help to address some of the barriers to disclosure and identification of suicidal behaviour and/or self-harm, by laying the foundation for open and honest communication to occur"
See also: The Role of Empathy on Attitudes,Evaluation, and Responsiveness to Suicide
Social life is complex; we can't expect the expressions of mental illness to conform to our ideas of what is normative by our standard of a "social debate" when mental illness by its very definition marks a behavioural, emotional, and cognitive deviation from the normal social order. Disturbances to the social order is expected and if you can't maturely respond to them with empathy then you're missing the point.
This isn't some sort of highly-moderated social space where the prejudicial value of maintaining debate is overturned by the subjective desire to continue a structured form of debating. It's an online public forum where mental health is bound to pop up and we each should have a moral responsibility to shift gears communication-wise and respond with compassion.
I swear I feel like modernism has turned some people straight cold and calculating... I'm the last person to say we should base conclusions on our emotions (just look at my post history to see how adamant I am about evidence-based practice) but for real: get in touch with your emotions here. A human is expressing suffering and may take their own life and all you have to say for it is they're trying to manipulate you? Are you okay?
Edited by Rhizomorph (05/05/22 01:35 AM)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
I understand know why so many people overtly hate the psychedelic community... And I can say with confidence now that I too hate the movement at large.
Agreed. I really really dislike the psychedelic community and I'm a psychedelic researcher for fucks sake - I should be THE person to love psychedelic people & psychedelic culture
Hope you can find some solace in the fact that there are subgroups within psychedelic culture that are reasonable. The Shroomery is a social microcosm. You say you're a student - I encourage you to find real life people at your local university - many universities have psychedelic clubs with people who are actually knowledgeable about trans topics given their education & experience. Maybe see if there is a local Students for Sensible Drug Policy (SSDP) chapter at your university. I personally run a chapter at my university and have found it to be way more illuminating on the intersection of drug policy and social justice than the Shroomery has ever been. They are a group of students with a shared vision and similar experience in promoting evidence-based drug policies (such as psychedelic decrim/legalization/etc.) and put a TON of work into advocating for the inclusion of marginalized voices including trans people. The collaborative and evidence-based framework means they actually know what they're talking about: Addressing the intersection of psychedelic stigma and trans-stigma is paramount given the relevant histories, policies, etc. and SSDP is very vocal about this. Discrimination is obviously everywhere and I can't claim personal experience of being trans, but I gather there is substantially more acceptance within these communities comparatively given their evidence-based and community-health-centered orientation.
Point being, SSDP reflects a psychedelic community that is anti-transphobia (relative to the dominant psychedelic culture, including the Shroomery)
I find people who are actually out doing real life work in their fields from evidence-based standpoints are far far more reasonable, open-minded, & understanding. The Shroomery is a great place to learn to grow mushrooms but many (including myself) use the Shroomery as an unproductive coping mechanism. For this reason it likely attracts a disproportionate number of people who don't really have real life experience specializing in these topics. It also likely has a handful of people who socially isolate which is associated with higher stress, poorer emotional regulation, and projection of negative emotions onto the world at large (this is my pedantic way of saying there are a lot of transphobic lowlifes hanging around here. Not to call out anyone in particular though).
As I said before the Shroomery is extremely mainstream; I encourage you to find psychedelic communities that are actually challenging the status quo (instead of pretending to do so while still maintaining dominant oppressive cultures); a true renaissance psychedelic society would seek to benefit all aspects of social life, not just people already empowered (I.e., cis people).
This whole thread would make an interesting case study for sociological & clinical analysis of the intersection between sociocultural dimensions of transphobia & public responsiveness to suicide disclosure. I wonder if my supervisor would let me put together a study on psychedelic use and perceptions of suicide...
Anyways I'm out
Edited by Rhizomorph (05/05/22 01:31 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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I am disturbed by the whole "you people" approach.
it is evidence of prejudicial taints.
leave divide and conquer to the Putin-ites
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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i wonder if the transgender industry, by trying to change natural law, is a way to open the door for the tranhumanism industry.
transhumanists after all want to have a "perfect" body that is created for them and transcend the natural laws of human limitations.
by separting personal identity from the biological differences between male and female, a new form is created. in this way transgender and transhuman seem very similar.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
My only point is that we shouldn't be dismissive of suicide because emotional warmth does far more help and the research shows that it is rarely done for antisocial purposes (contrary to the claim made)...
How does one know the warmth in another's message? Is it warm to assume? This is a genuine curiosity on how we should relate to one another.
I personally think that communication works best with clarity as it's backbone. And that assumptions are best avoided.
Or said another way: mean what you say, and say what you mean
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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TerdleMountain
Stranger
Registered: 02/06/21
Posts: 264
Last seen: 2 months, 28 days
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Natural law?
Really? Like everything from cancer treatments to earth moving equipment(and our ability to build cities, by extension) couldn't be considered a violation of natural law. Our biggest survival strategy as humans is our ability to thwart "natural law" and adapt both our bodies and our environments to our needs.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Quote:
TerdleMountain said:
Natural law?
Really? Like everything from cancer treatments to earth moving equipment(and our ability to build cities, by extension) couldn't be considered a violation of natural law. Our biggest survival strategy as humans is our ability to thwart "natural law" and adapt both our bodies and our environments to our needs.
that fits the description of transhumanism.
there is hardly any natural law anymore. humanity becomes more disjointed from reality every day. that survival strategy, the use of ai far and wide, seeks to fully dislodge humans from nature.
no natural law, no human nature.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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What is the nature of a human? I always thought it was to experience life and death?
What more was, that no longer is?
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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TheConfluence
Stranger
Registered: 12/13/21
Posts: 157
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#27764026 - 05/05/22 07:23 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizomorph said:
Quote:
TheConfluence said:
I understand know why so many people overtly hate the psychedelic community... And I can say with confidence now that I too hate the movement at large.
This whole thread would make an interesting case study for sociological & clinical analysis of the intersection between sociocultural dimensions of transphobia & public responsiveness to suicide disclosure. I wonder if my supervisor would let me put together a study on psychedelic use and perceptions of suicide...
Anyways I'm out
Yep.
That was the real goal.
Got uglier than anticipated... Not sure why I didn't anticipate. Stupid optimism.
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When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion.
Philip K. Dick
Lies, Inc. (1984)
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 3
#27764032 - 05/05/22 07:33 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizomorph said:
Quote:
TheConfluence said:
I understand know why so many people overtly hate the psychedelic community... And I can say with confidence now that I too hate the movement at large.
Agreed. I really really dislike the psychedelic community and I'm a psychedelic researcher for fucks sake - I should be THE person to love psychedelic people & psychedelic culture
Hope you can find some solace in the fact that there are subgroups within psychedelic culture that are reasonable. The Shroomery is a social microcosm. You say you're a student - I encourage you to find real life people at your local university - many universities have psychedelic clubs with people who are actually knowledgeable about trans topics given their education & experience. Maybe see if there is a local Students for Sensible Drug Policy (SSDP) chapter at your university. I personally run a chapter at my university and have found it to be way more illuminating on the intersection of drug policy and social justice than the Shroomery has ever been. They are a group of students with a shared vision and similar experience in promoting evidence-based drug policies (such as psychedelic decrim/legalization/etc.) and put a TON of work into advocating for the inclusion of marginalized voices including trans people. The collaborative and evidence-based framework means they actually know what they're talking about: Addressing the intersection of psychedelic stigma and trans-stigma is paramount given the relevant histories, policies, etc. and SSDP is very vocal about this. Discrimination is obviously everywhere and I can't claim personal experience of being trans, but I gather there is substantially more acceptance within these communities comparatively given their evidence-based and community-health-centered orientation.
Point being, SSDP reflects a psychedelic community that is anti-transphobia (relative to the dominant psychedelic culture, including the Shroomery)
I find people who are actually out doing real life work in their fields from evidence-based standpoints are far far more reasonable, open-minded, & understanding. The Shroomery is a great place to learn to grow mushrooms but many (including myself) use the Shroomery as an unproductive coping mechanism. For this reason it likely attracts a disproportionate number of people who don't really have real life experience specializing in these topics. It also likely has a handful of people who socially isolate which is associated with higher stress, poorer emotional regulation, and projection of negative emotions onto the world at large (this is my pedantic way of saying there are a lot of transphobic lowlifes hanging around here. Not to call out anyone in particular though).
As I said before the Shroomery is extremely mainstream; I encourage you to find psychedelic communities that are actually challenging the status quo (instead of pretending to do so while still maintaining dominant oppressive cultures); a true renaissance psychedelic society would seek to benefit all aspects of social life, not just people already empowered (I.e., cis people).
This whole thread would make an interesting case study for sociological & clinical analysis of the intersection between sociocultural dimensions of transphobia & public responsiveness to suicide disclosure. I wonder if my supervisor would let me put together a study on psychedelic use and perceptions of suicide...
Anyways I'm out
Lengthy, jargon-replete, passive aggressive tirade without an insightful clause to be found anywhere. We get it, you've been spending a lot of time at an American university in the past five years and that makes you among the most ethical and clear-sighted humans in history. You're an inspiration to us all.
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion] 1
#27764039 - 05/05/22 07:39 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I've been working on a goal of 8 self-removals per day. Pardon me, I've some very important things to do which are not the things you think are important. Time for us to part here. Toodles.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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 Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27764040 - 05/05/22 07:40 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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today's culture, devalues and degrades humanness. human nature is the way a person chooses to behave and think. as humans try to adapt to the future, and human nature is altered, there is further erosion of a lack of identity. connection is essential to human nature, as connection is essential in the formation of identity.
what are people willing to accept at the loss of their humanity?
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Today's culture is human. We may not like what we see, but it is still human culture. Thankfully enough things can change. That is also very human.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
i wonder if the transgender industry, by trying to change natural law, is a way to open the door for the tranhumanism industry.
transhumanists after all want to have a "perfect" body that is created for them and transcend the natural laws of human limitations.
by separating personal identity from the biological differences between male and female, a new form is created. in this way transgender and transhuman seem very similar.
I like this perspective, if only such enterprises were already developed and rigorously available to whomever might wish to go pain free albeit less phenotypically genuine.
especially if changes, made at such transformative venues, could be reverted such as happens in Star Trek, where one can effectively masquerade as human or Romulan or Klingon as need be, male or female, as need be - and then change back for the next episode.
mostly I would be attracted to the opportunity for health security, but fluid identity can be attractive as well. Nothing better than a healthy body for a psychonaut, once you have a secure supply.
Here is a cute question, would two humans who have become Vulcan and Klingon via transformation, and then have a child, be in their rights to have the child shaped to match them such that he/she could have pointy ears, wrinkled forehead, and clean bill of health. Conforming to one's parents appearance to some extent helps the child with developmental identity. And if the process were reversible, it probably would be the right idea.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
Here is a cute question, would two humans who have become Vulcan and Klingon via transformation, and then have a child, be in their rights to have the child shaped to match them such that he/she could have pointy ears, wrinkled forehead, and clean bill of health. Conforming to one's parents appearance to some extent helps the child with developmental identity. And if the process were reversible, it probably would be the right idea.
No need to reverse if things can change. They just change as needed. If there is no need to change, it will stay as it was. Evolutionary
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27764209 - 05/05/22 10:39 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
What is most frustrating to read here is the volume of dehumanizing language... It's very clear that transgender people are not human in your eyes.
Kierkegaard said, "Once you label me you negate me" That's the problem with adopting such labels for ourselves and others. Such labels remove our humanness. We become a label. It's one of the most profound ideas I've ever come across.
Quote:
TheConfluence said:
I understand know why so many people overtly hate the psychidelic community... And I can say with confidence now that I too hate the movement at large.
I hope you get a bad dose and have a stroke honestly
Hoping for someone to die is a bit unkind
Quote:
Kickle said:
I see no rush. Feeling rushed is actually a cause of suffering. Restlessness.
Someone once told me, "If I am here and I want to be there - that's suffering." I suspect that's why driving a car can cause so much emotionally stress. The bizarre yearning to escape the pain of what we call "waiting" to get to our destination. Aggressive driving reveals our frustration and aversion to "wanting to be somewhere else" and the "is this over yet?!" attitude.
When I am "waiting" in line, what exactly is going on? Is it possible to be in a grocery line and not do this thing we call "waiting"? Can 5 minutes "waiting" in a grocery store be more like sitting on a bench at a park enjoying the day? It's a challenge but I think it is certainly possible.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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I appreciate the viewpoint. I think waiting in line is ok as long as it's not painful. It's when it hurts during the wait that it is particularly challenging. Thanks for the grounding.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27764418 - 05/05/22 01:21 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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mostly I do not like driving, but I prefer doing it to having any of my friends in charge of driving.
a taxi is fine tho,
but none of it is relaxing,
and I doubt I will ever have a chauffeur, that might be relaxing in a plush Bentley, Rolls or some such.
dream on.
I'm in a 14 yr old suzuki sx4, you feel everything.
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Pinkerton
Koanist
Registered: 02/26/19
Posts: 3,324
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I wonder what car I'll be driving within one year.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Pinkerton] 2
#27764522 - 05/05/22 02:31 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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probably a gender fender
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi
Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,619
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,369
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: sudly] 1
#27765517 - 05/06/22 06:27 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,369
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I don't think psychedelics are relevant here, people can be insensitive regardless.
I don't think there's a question of whether transgender children exist. I think it's a question of what age can we reasonably agree upon that individual emotional intelligence is consistant enough to reduce the likelihood of indeciciveness after the fact of going through any type of hormonal therapy.
I think it's an honest question to ask what age someone is when they are considered mature enough and to know themselves enough, through life experiences, relationships or experiments alike that they won't take seriously thoughts of turning back.
A tween may not fully understand they are gay, and what it means for them, especially in a closed off society that deems the issue taboo. Somewhere they may not have the support they need.
Turning back hormone therapy can leave enlarged breasts, or sterility in MtF, and have reciprocal effects on anxiety and depression.
Quote:
Most of the changes brought on by “feminizing” hormone therapy are not permanent. If you stop taking the medication, most of the changes will reverse themselves. There are two types of changes that may be permanent: breast growth and sterility.
https://d31kydh6n6r5j5.cloudfront.net/uploads/sites/161/2019/08/hormones_MTF.pdf
For FtM there are also risks of infertility, and changes to bone growth and density.
Quote:
While some transgender men have sucessfully undergone egg freezing or IVF after starting hormone therapy, long-term use of hormones may lead to permanent infertility.
https://alto.com/blog/post/transgender-hormone-therapy-side-effects
Hormone therapy can greatly help some people, I've met a few.
Quote:
Hormone replacement therapy affects you emotionally as well as physically. In the long term, gender-affirming treatment, including both hormone therapy and surgery, can lead to better mental health, reducing the need for depression and anxiety-related treatment.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/masculinizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099
I don't think puberty blockers or hormone therapy is a one size fits all kind of situation and the nuances involved do unfortunately hinder changes for some, while preventing others from going through sometimes irreversible or difficult to reverse changes.
If you let everyone take the meds, some will thrive and some will crash, and unfortunately someone will have to take the responsibility for those ups and downs and therefore the red tape is necessary. Paperwork is usually about insurances and liability concerns and when medications are involved, negative side effects can have major consequences for all involved parties and some people don't want to take the risk, and those that do want strict safeguards.
What age do you think is right and why?
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: sudly] 1
#27765594 - 05/06/22 07:44 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I was a late adolescent, which was a bit annoying, but given the opportunity, I would extend my pre-sexual period indefinitely if it would extend life expectancy.
not that sexual activity hasn't been an amazing high point of life.
lsd and pot and meditation have gone beyond it consistently.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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My opinion is that a person has no comparison of being something other than themself, for they have never been something else.
So for a person to say that they feel like a girl trapped in a boys body, from what are they comparing?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: teknix]
#27771573 - 05/10/22 05:41 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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I remember I sat with the girls in grade 8 and 9,
I do not know what anyone thought but I had a crush on one of the girls and could not think straight at all
and I was tiny for a guy at that age
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Red, are you inferring that your attractions determine your gender?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: teknix]
#27771986 - 05/10/22 10:17 PM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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no brain, my gender put me into a pickle jar so everyone could see my attractions
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lion]
#27772108 - 05/11/22 12:31 AM (1 year, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
Lengthy
There's always more considerations and if we don't like this we shouldn't read it. This is why there are multiple book length works on the topic. Those with a need for cognition should happily read a few paragraphs. A baseline expectation that we do some reading should be expected if we're to unpack a complex topic. I encourage us both to avoid being intellectually lazy or otherwise we should try not to act like our opinions are more compelling.
Occam's razor is valid as a methodological tool but not always as a communication tool. In an ideal world everyone would understand the simplest answer (and I could easily provide what I believe is the simple & concise answer) but when semantics are missing (by any party interpreting meaning from what is communicated) communication necessitates a detour through these elementary semantic concepts.
You probably wouldn't like nor accept my simple answer based on your previous replies. The same goes for your ontology of trans people.
Quote:
Lion said:
jargon-replete
Which words specifically were jargon in my comment? I try to link to webpages defining in laypersons terms what the jargon I use means when and if I use any. But I don't see any in the comment you replied to
Quote:
Lion said:
without an insightful clause to be found anywhere
By what metric? Your own subjective one? Besides the comment was not intended for you. For TheConfluence SSDP may be a valuable resource. Who are you to say that somebody has not found insight in my comment? I gather by TheConfluence's response, some PM's I've received from other Shroomery members, and some of the positive (not to overlook the negative) feedback I've received throughout this thread, concluding there is no insight is an oversimplification.
Quote:
Lion said:
passive aggressive tirade... We get it, you've been spending a lot of time at an AmericanCanadian university in the past five years and that makes you among the most ethical and clear-sighted humans in history. You're an inspiration to us all.
My comment was directed at TheConfluence and only TheConfluence. My comments directed towards you and others have been nothing but respectful. My comments towards TheConfluence have been entirely dedicated to encouraging them to connect with communities where they will feel accepted and not suicidal (& showing support). If I seem passive aggressive to you for trying to build rapport with TheConfluence by sharing an anti-transphobic orientation with them then so be it. The comment wasn't really intended for your interpretation either way
Besides University-level knowledge production should be the standard for anything rooted in medicine & biology. This whole thread is targeted at questions regarding medical decisions. Would you prefer somebody who went to medical school or somebody who spent a lot of time discussing these issues on the Shroomery (or perhaps taking it upon themselves to do a lot of personal reading) to be your surgeon or medical doctor? If you visit a doctor rather than a naturopath for serious medical procedures then your actions themselves manifest as a tacit assumption of the authority academia has over medical and biological topics.
Your whole comment acts like I'm being self-righteous by acknowledging this when as far as I can tell I've been fairly reflexive, admitted when I don't know something (e.g., the global vs. specific influence of functional networks in discussion with RGV), tried to build positive and emotionally supportive rapport with TheConfluence who is experiencing suicidal ideation, and have provided multiple sources of empirical evidence to support any of the potentially controversial views I have. Even where I talked shit about the Shroomery members I included myself in this criticism (jesus fuck I need to get out more & you should too!)
I don't know cause I'm me and not you, but I sense that some of the people in this thread may be resistant to criticizing their own culture. Psychedelic culture = ass. The Shroomery = ass. Academia = ass (upholds various problematic ideologies). These are all my cultures and represent who I am (thus I probably = ass in some ways; the point is to be aware and constantly try to learn to be better & unlearn problematic aspects of your culture). I may be a strong critic but I like to think I have some humility as I go about it. Is your problem related to my humility/perceived lack thereof, or is it my overbearing tendency to over-critique? I am definitely overbearing in this regard but that is not the same as self-righteousness...
Edited by Rhizomorph (05/11/22 02:37 AM)
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NakedNexus
Psychonaut
Registered: 03/25/22
Posts: 252
Loc: Mind Palace
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph]
#27772396 - 05/11/22 08:52 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Let people express themselves how they will, if its not hurting anyone, who cares?
I think the debate about transgenders competing with their desired gender has some merit though. Should be a whole different category at the end of the day imo.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: NakedNexus]
#27772407 - 05/11/22 09:11 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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competition is gaming is fun and is gambling, is fame and is fortune. the fewer rules the more amazing the results, lack of rules makes no sense at all.
I stick to cards and shuffling the deck and cutting the deck is still a mystery to me.
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: NakedNexus]
#27772423 - 05/11/22 09:33 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
NakedNexus said:
Let people express themselves how they will, if its not hurting anyone, who cares?
That comment would be more appropriate in 1975. "Trans" was called "crossdressing" then.
Nudists should be a protected class. In CA, if you walk down the street without clothes, you can face 6 months in county jail, a fine of $1,000, and 10-year minimum registration as a sex offender. We need to support these marginalized people.
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NakedNexus
Psychonaut
Registered: 03/25/22
Posts: 252
Loc: Mind Palace
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
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I think its still appropriate, people's weird self expression still seems harmless most of the time. Pretty sure there is a difference in trans/crossdressers, though maybe less so in this day and age.
Now there is a movement I can get behind. But America has a lot of sexual issues to address before we ever let ourselves be free in that regard.
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: NakedNexus]
#27772436 - 05/11/22 09:49 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I guess I'm part of the LGBTQ2S+ group, since 100% of my sexual interactions have not been with women.
I wonder what a bisexual has in common with someone who identifies as two-spirit.
Do bisexual folks actually receive a lot of hate from society? And discrimination?
I assume people are born as bisexual . . .
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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probably everyone is bisexual to some extent, social norms reinforce attitudes that are unnatural - we have to understand our history better to get past that.
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NakedNexus
Psychonaut
Registered: 03/25/22
Posts: 252
Loc: Mind Palace
Last seen: 1 month, 26 days
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Yeah the Kinsey scale makes sense. Definitely wouldn't call myself 100% heterosexual.
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,369
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: NakedNexus]
#27773516 - 05/12/22 04:41 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
...But...What is going on?...
***Context: I am a BA psychologist considering taking the leap of faith into a PhD in endocrinology***
"What is going on?"
You are witnessing societal collapse, in slow motion...
In particular the late stage of a corporate capitalistic military empire, that is overly leveraged in many respects.
Roman society started to fall apart towards the end too.
Sounds crazy? Well consider:
A fictional story, but amazing probably accurate graphical portrayal of Roman decadence towards the end:
https://www.criterion.com/films/28038-fellini-satyricon
Are we a military empire? in some ways?
What about assassination by drones, in countries we are not at war with?
What about outsourcing of torture?
And number of US military bases?
And the black budgets of the military: CIA, NSA, Pentagon etc.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=number+of+us+military+bases+worldwide&va=b&t=hr&ia=web
Chalmers Johnson:
"A nation can be one or the other, a democracy or an imperialist, but it can't be both. If it sticks to imperialism, it will, like the old Roman Republic, on which so much of our system was modeled, lose its democracy to a domestic dictatorship."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalmers_Johnson
...collapse, in slow motion...but it will speed up as global warming and its many world wide effects spread ...
Of course most are in denial, although they will say they aren't, as their plans and behavior, show no real changes,
in the light of the facts.
Some new global warming data:
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/pakistan-india-reel-under-intense-heat-wave-2022-04-29/
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pakistan+heat+wave%2C+temperatures&va=b&t=hr&ia=web
To be concerned about gender & abortion issues is to see a couple trees and miss the forest IMO.
Unfortunately they are indeed sad and ugly trees.
And there other signs:
increasing mass shootings
diabetes epidemic
opioid epidemic
increased militarization of police
increasing wealth gap
political corruption on both sides
corruption on Wall Street
unfair tax system
privatization of prisons
huge prison population of non violent 'offenders'
assassination by drones
no affordable health care for millions
and poor health statistics, in comparison to other countries, and especially considering the USA is the wealthiest
etc.
Makes me wonder what kind of a wonderful world you think you are going to enjoy your PhD in?
Edited by laughingdog (05/15/22 06:50 PM)
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
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This is from a Calvin Klein Mother's Day ad campaign that shows a pregnant transgender man and his transgender wife. Roberto Bete is a Brazilian female-to-male transgender reality TV personality, and his wife is Erika Fernandes - also a reality TV star. (I'll resist the temptation to use italics for some of those words) The couple has decided to name their son Noah.
It took me a minute to understand this photo. So the person on the left is fine with having a uterus and being pregnant with a baby, but they had their breasts removed? Do I have that right? I assume those are scars from the surgery.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi
Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,619
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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The child is going to have a very rough time growing up. Damn…. That sucks 
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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,369
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I hate seeing other couples live happy lives too 
And lgbt parents make their kids lives terrible, not the bigots that harass them
         
 
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi
Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,619
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: sudly]
#27781051 - 05/17/22 03:01 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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oh boy
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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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wolf8312
Pennywise
Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 2,358
Last seen: 1 month, 1 day
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
This is from a Calvin Klein Mother's Day ad campaign that shows a pregnant transgender man and his transgender wife. Roberto Bete is a Brazilian female-to-male transgender reality TV personality, and his wife is Erika Fernandes - also a reality TV star. (I'll resist the temptation to use italics for some of those words) The couple has decided to name their son Noah.
It took me a minute to understand this photo. So the person on the left is fine with having a uterus and being pregnant with a baby, but they had their breasts removed? Do I have that right? I assume those are scars from the surgery.
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"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."
Pennywise the dancing clown
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laughingdog
Stranger
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,830
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
TheConfluence said:
...But...What is going on?...
***Context: I am a BA psychologist considering taking the leap of faith into a PhD in endocrinology***
"What is going on?"
You are witnessing societal collapse, in slow motion...
To be concerned about gender & abortion issues is to see a couple trees and miss the forest IMO.
Unfortunately these are indeed sad and ugly trees.
[And there are unfortunately also many more]
[and the collapse] will speed up as global warming and its many world wide effects spread
....
Makes me wonder what kind of a wonderful world you think you are going to enjoy your PhD in?
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=junkie+towns
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=homeless+in+america
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=decaying+cities%2C+USA
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rust+belt+decaying+cities%2C+USA
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Poverty+in+the+USA
Edited by laughingdog (05/17/22 03:36 PM)
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doolhoofd
doolhoofd.com
Registered: 12/22/22
Posts: 356
Loc: Dorsia
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 Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: NakedNexus] 1
#28138947 - 01/14/23 04:07 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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--------------------
Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: doolhoofd]
#28139734 - 01/14/23 04:15 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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How are questions of medical safety & efficacy of hormone blockers for children relevant with regards to the (legitimate) ontology of gender expression that NakedNexus was referring to?
Non-conforming genders have been validated by neurobiological and clinical psychological research (e.g., MRI studies on gender- and self-reflective functional brain networks + psychotherapy treatment outcome studies for gender non-conforming clients). Meanwhile, the jury is still out on hormone blockers for children.
You're conflating two different things (or you're just dropping random information for arbitrary purposes which seems less likely as this would be redundant and frankly, stupid; but I don't want to assume...) which in itself demonstrates you likely haven't done enough intellectual work unpacking this topic... I don't claim to be an expert either but there are certainly people more informed than you or I and these people are generally more on the tolerant side of the questions at hand...
Very few people in this thread are basing their opinions on primary research; the vast majority of the premises include links to Youtube videos, independently produced articles and intuition, rather than evidence-based & peer-reviewed research demonstrating best-practices... Scientific literacy is a must if we wish to interrogate scientific questions (such as ontological or medical questions about trans people, of whom most people have a prejudice against in the first place)
Prejudice + lack of scientific literacy (e.g., getting our news from Youtube) is a great recipe for erroneous & axiomatic logic, as demonstrated by the research in cognitive psychology (& the philosophy of logic more generally).
I'm happy to share sources for any of the claims I've made about cognitive reasoning & persuasion in psychology I've made as psychology is where I can rightfully claim some expertise/specialized knowledge, having done research & related work in this field.
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/14/23 04:25 PM)
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doolhoofd
doolhoofd.com
Registered: 12/22/22
Posts: 356
Loc: Dorsia
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 Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#28139788 - 01/14/23 04:38 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizomorph said:
How are questions of medical safety & efficacy of hormone blockers for children relevant with regards to the (legitimate) ontology of gender expression that NakedNexus was referring to?
Non-conforming genders have been validated by neurobiological and clinical psychological research (e.g., MRI studies on gender- and self-reflective functional brain networks + psychotherapy treatment outcome studies for gender non-conforming clients). Meanwhile, the jury is still out on hormone blockers for children.
You're conflating two different things
I wish I were, but, sadly, I am not.
Both are part and parcel of the same ideology.
https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/when-asked-what-are-your-pronouns
Quote:
“What are your pronouns?” is a seemingly innocuous question that has become increasingly common. Pronouns are now frequently displayed prominently in social-media bios, email signatures and conference name tags. Vice President Kamala Harris features “she/her” pronouns in her Twitter bio, and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg includes “he/him” in his. Then there are the singular “they/them” pronouns used by “nonbinary” people who identify as neither male nor female, as well as a growing list of bespoke “neopronouns” such as “ze/zir” or “fae/faer,” and the even stranger “noun-self” neopronouns like “bun/bunself” which, according to the New York Times, are identities that can encompass animals and fantasy characters.
A recent survey of 40,000 “lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and questioning (LGBTQ) youth” in the U.S. found that a full 25% use pronouns other than she/her and he/him exclusively. The Human Rights Campaign, which claims to be the “nation’s largest LGBTQ+ civil rights organization,” recently tweeted that we should all begin conversations with “Hi, my pronouns are _____. What are yours?” We are told that asking for, sharing and respecting pronouns is “inclusive” to trans and nonbinary people, and that failing to do so may even constitute violence and oppression.
If this all sounds confusing and makes you uncomfortable for reasons you find difficult to articulate, you’re not alone. While being subjected to constant rituals of pronoun exchanges may seem silly or annoying at best and exhausting at worst, in reality participating in this ostensibly benign practice helps to normalize a regressive ideology that is inflicting enormous harm on society. To understand why, you’ll need to familiarize yourself with its core tenets.
Proponents of gender ideology have completely decoupled the terms “man,” “woman,” “boy” and “girl” from biological sex. Gender ideology teaches that the terms “man/boy” and “woman/girl”—and their corresponding “he/his” and “she/her” pronouns—refer to a person’s gender identity, while “male” and “female” refer to biological sex. While you may define a woman as a female human adult, gender ideology contends that a “woman” is an adult of either sex who simply “identifies” as a woman.
But what does it mean to “identify” as a man or woman?
Gender activists believe that being a man or a woman requires embracing stereotypes of masculinity or femininity, respectively, or the different social roles and expectations society imposes on people because of their sex. Planned Parenthood explicitly states that gender identity is “how you feel inside,” defines “gender” as a “a social and legal status, a set of expectations from society, about behaviors, characteristics, and thoughts,” and asserts that “it’s more about how you’re expected to act, because of your sex.”
A recent New York Times piece refers to “men, women and gender nonconforming people,” as though gender nonconformity were incompatible with being a man or a woman. According to the Genderbread Person, a popular educational tool for teaching young children about gender identity, the properties of “man-ness” and “woman-ness” include certain stereotypical “personality traits, jobs, hobbies, likes, dislikes, roles, [and] expectations.”
The clear message of gender ideology is that, if you’re a female who doesn’t “identify with” the social roles and stereotypes of femininity, then you’re not a woman; if you’re a male who similarly rejects the social roles and stereotypes of masculinity, then you’re not a man. Instead, you’re considered either transgender or nonbinary, and Planned Parenthood assures you that “there are medical treatments you can use to help your body better reflect who you are.” According to this line of thinking, certain personalities, behaviors and preferences are incompatible with certain types of anatomy.
So when someone asks for your pronouns, and you respond with “she/her,” even though you may be communicating the simple fact that you’re female, a gender ideologue would interpret this as an admission that you embrace femininity and the social roles and expectations associated with being female. While women’s-rights movements fought for decades to decouple womanhood from rigid stereotypes and social roles, modern gender ideology has melded them back together.
Coercing people into publicly stating their pronouns in the name of “inclusion” is a Trojan horse that empowers gender ideology and expands its reach. It is the thin end of the gender activists’ wedge designed to normalize their worldview. Participating in pronoun rituals makes you complicit in gender ideology’s regressive belief system, thereby legitimizing it. Far from an innocuous act signaling support for inclusion, it serves as an implicit endorsement of gender ideology and all of its radical tenets.
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Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph]
#28139796 - 01/14/23 04:41 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I only like the flintstones you tube videos
and Mel Brooks's young frankenstein. Otherwise they have little to offer, (I am mostly deaf and use closed captions)
all the new right wing alternative truth crap gives me a headache.
I started ignoring whoever posts it.
like it's nazi germany in the late 1920's but this time it's all over the world.
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: doolhoofd]
#28139806 - 01/14/23 04:46 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
doolhoofd said:
I wish I were, but, sadly, I am not.
Both are part and parcel of the same ideology.
So you're assuming that their argument fits into the entire generalized brush of this ideology? Ideologies are cultural systems involving multiple counterparts, some of which have greater epistemological power and normativity within the ideology respectively.
If you assume that every individual argument - such as the one OP made - is proportional to the sum of the very diverse ideology, we can effectively discount any argument for any ideology, ever as there are always semantic ties to erroneous reasoning. This is the definition of a straw man fallacy
I don't think OP is participating in the absurd reasoning you're alluding to. Or at the very least, it is an assumption that they are without concrete evidence of such. Otherwise, we are working off of pure prejudice towards an ideology rather than the relevant argument at hand, which is closed minded at best.
And jesus, again, why are you citing independently produced articles? Who on earth is "Colin Wright"? Does he have a scientific background & the credentials to ethically & responsibly produce & disseminate knowledge in this area? Why haven't they made a neccessary conflict of interest statement? What tangible real-world evidence (fitting within a scientific realist model) supports these ideas? Why are there no references?!? How can we trust information from a monetized source???
Social theory does a way better job of addressing the semantic cultural ties of the sort that article is attempting to articulate by applying Hegelian dialectics through a scientific model of social inquiry. The quote you shared doesn't even attempt to look at how epistemological power at the macrosociological level constrains individual autonomy in the cultural relationship it is discussing. Does it reference the prior scientific works in social theory whatsoever?
You need to interrogate the epistemological validity of knowledge claims on the public forum to greater extent; remember, the public & online forum is a free-for-all which promotes confirmation bias & thought bubbles...
How about this... Spend multiple months conducting a literature review on the following hits from PubMed (such that actual researchers are doing) and let me know if it is in any way consistent with the article you shared: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=transgender+people
I feel like people are just lazy and don't spent time reading or unpacking my comments ffs... No disrespect of course. It's just frustrating
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/14/23 05:12 PM)
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doolhoofd
doolhoofd.com
Registered: 12/22/22
Posts: 356
Loc: Dorsia
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 Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#28139847 - 01/14/23 04:59 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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"We will sooner transport an elephant on a toy train, than truth through the written word." - Arnon Grunberg
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Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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loladoreen
Registered: 05/25/20
Posts: 5,470
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Quote:
TheConfluence said:
At the very least here in the United States there is a frothing debate over the validity over transgender people and the validity of their internal subjective experience. Several years ago the American people lived in sheer terror under the constant threat of a transgender person potentially occupying the stall next to them and quietly and privately relieving themselves. After quite a lot of negative press and owning of liberal idealism nobody won anything and effectively nothing changed in the slightest... Or so it seemed.
In the years that followed the, "the lady in the stall next to me has a suspicious sounding stream" panic of 2016, many of the most outspoken opposition became violently radicalized against the notion of gender being more complex that "dick or no dick"... And they became inextricably obsessed with particularly transgender women.
"They'll molest my daughter at the Target super center and I just can't let that happen"... But this had never before... Nor has yet to happen. The opposition was literally brawling a straw man... Many continue to do so to this day.
Today a more egregious assault is being mounted against the transgender community but this time conservatives have taken aim at a group they know they can certainly out argue... Literal Children. Conservatives have decided that if a child never learns that transgender people exist... Then they will never become transgender. A hilariously small minded perspective but nonetheless one that has purchased an enormous swath of real estate in the minds of these people entirely rent free. False narratives proliferate the political battle field, "they're groomers", "they're indoctrinating", "they're abusing our children"...
But...
What is going on?
The gestalt perspective is fairly simple... Transgender people exist... They are healthier and have better mental and physical health outcomes when they are able to begin transitioning earlier in life... And there is a reality that transitioning in and of it self takes many years to accomplish.
So...
Bring it up once or twice during sex education, something more or less all children in public education are taught anyways and maybe help a troubled child feel a little bit safer and better about possibly having some very different feelings about their body.
These "hot button" issues pertaining to the "LGBT Agenda" are something that I have fixated on since the push to legalize gay marriage... Which you may have forgotten only came to be about 10 years ago.
So I cannot help but curiously wonder.
What defines gender to you?
What is a man?
What is a woman?
And what on earth is so scary about a transgender woman with a full bladder?
Moreover, do you believe that banning conversation pertaining to LGBT issues in public schools will impact at all the volume of young people who are transitioning in our society?
***Context: I am a BA psychologist considering taking the leap of faith into a PhD in endocrinology***
In my career I have worked with people transitioning or already transitioned.
My personal opinions used to be you are what you body part you were born with.
NOW that I have more education and experience. You are what you identify with. And if you have your BA in psych you probably are aware that medicine supports this. We have found that men who identify as women have less testosterone and vice versa.
There is a lot of medicine to support that it is not as simple as just male or female. More than we thought have enough hormones to be considered both sexes.
It is a complex conversation that I am still learning about.
I support people.
Most people do not support because they don't understand and do not want to understand.
I didn't. I have a better understanding now.
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![]() “One doesn’t have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy and understanding are sufficient.”
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: loladoreen] 1
#28139937 - 01/14/23 05:37 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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a degree serves to indoctrinate, not educate. while experience is clearly more important, if someone has been indoctinated thru formal education, then their beliefs will be skewed. school is where people pay others to learn to not think for themselves!
this interview gets deep around 40:00 minutes. peterson covers how in many jurisdictions due to standards of "gender affirming care" therapists are required, if the patient says they are a boy, (when biologically they are a girl) the therapist is now required to agree with the patient, or they may lose their license! this is idiocracy!
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
a degree serves to indoctrinate, not educate. while experience is clearly more important, if someone has been indoctinated thru formal education, then their beliefs will be skewed. school is where people pay others to learn to not think for themselves!
This is a non-sequiter if I've ever seen one...
What alternative standard evidence-based epistemology do you recommend then? Public intellectuals like Jordan Peterson who go rogue and break standard epistemological conventions while unapologetically monetizing knowledge production & individually gatekeeping knowledge become the new epistemological standard? That is a terrifying and absurd idea.
Who will moderate public knowledge? YouTube & Twitter Mods with even less scientific literacy? People being paid to prioritize the commercialization of service-users' attention at the expense of empiricism? Where is the standard to be found??
This sounds like indoctrination and very realistically threatens the foundations of free speech & thinking that are fundamental to liberal democracies such as privacy, data rights, and various other issues... I sure hope this isn't the standard you would like to see.
Besides if you go see a doctor for any major surgery you already demonstrate a tacit assumption of scientific legitimacy despite your unscientific prejudices.
We are socialized long before formal education and continue to be socialized outside of education. If your concern is with intellectual autonomy when we are educated then I would contend that this is a sociological phenomenon that occurs irrespective of institutional education; socialization is, by human nature, unavoidable, and so it is ridiculous to not subject people to an epistemological standard given that they will form accurate or inaccurate cultural views regardless. As Terrence McKenna would say: don't take culture for granted.
I can't speak for primary school where non-scientifically literate parents often have a say, but in University, as long as an argument is epistemologically consistent (I.e., the math/logic is demonstrably sequentially sound), any argument is fair game.
Certain ideas are periodically marginalized when they periodically reflect an operation such as 1+1 = 4. And especially when they stand the rest of time/predictive validity of real-world phenomena.
Beyond this type of reasoning is cultural ideals and emotional reasoning, which most people are not trained to do; afterall, we evolved in pre-industrial societies where in-group biases ensured out survival...
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/14/23 06:05 PM)
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph]
#28139986 - 01/14/23 06:03 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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can you please tell me what you mean by moderate public knowledge?
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doolhoofd
doolhoofd.com
Registered: 12/22/22
Posts: 356
Loc: Dorsia
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Quote:
Rhizomorph said:
This is a non-sequiter if I've ever seen one...
Yeah, by the way, you misspelled "non-sequitur" - but that's sadly not a valid response to the main point of his post either, which was:
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
in many jurisdictions due to standards of "gender affirming care" therapists are required, if the patient says they are a boy, (when biologically they are a girl) the therapist is now required to agree with the patient, or they may lose their license! this is idiocracy!
I've also come across multiple stories of parents being denied visitation rights to their children due to not agreeing with their child's assumed gender identity.
https://eppc.org/publication/is-it-emotional-abuse-for-parents-to-deny-a-childs-transgender-claims/
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Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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doolhoofd
doolhoofd.com
Registered: 12/22/22
Posts: 356
Loc: Dorsia
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 Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph]
#28140015 - 01/14/23 06:15 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Rhizomorph, please stop editing and altering and adding material to your posts after placing them.
It's incredibly confusing and fatiguing to have to go back and fuzz out all the changes you made.
Just take your time to make sure your post is fully finished before you press "Submit."
"There is no clock ticking away." - A Guy Called Gerald, Essence
Thanks.
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Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: doolhoofd] 1
#28140036 - 01/14/23 06:28 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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No thanks. I enjoy editing them and that's why I'm on this forum. For enjoyment 😁
Also new thoughts arise some time after I first made a comment and I don't want to go back and add separate comments. If you haven't made a response in the time I've edited my comments I don't see why it's confusing to you. And regardless I'm not editing the original content.
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/14/23 08:35 PM)
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: doolhoofd]
#28140050 - 01/14/23 06:36 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I'll get to your other part of the post at a later point, but my spelling of the word is not relevant and what I have said still applies.
Don't like it? Shoot me. I'm enjoying unpacking these ideas.
Let's keep the discussion focused on the topic and not your issue with how I post. The majority of feedback on my writing is positive so I don't care to defend myself from people who disagree with my views and turn the conversation into an issue with when and how I post rather than my actual argument.
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/14/23 08:35 PM)
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doolhoofd
doolhoofd.com
Registered: 12/22/22
Posts: 356
Loc: Dorsia
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 Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph]
#28140072 - 01/14/23 06:49 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizomorph said:
I'll get to your other part of the post at a later point, but my spelling of the word is not relevant and what I have said still applies.
Don't like it? Shoot me. I'm enjoying unpacking these ideas.
Also new thoughts arise some time after I first made a comment and I don't want to go back and add separate comments. If you haven't made a response in the time I've edited my comments I don't see why it's confusing to you. And regardless I'm not editing the original content.
Let's keep the discussion focused on the topic and not your issue with how I post. The majority of feedback on my writing is positive so I don't care to defend myself from people who disagree with my views and turn the conversation into an issue with me rather than my logic.
"I remember, once, I was trying to teach a particularly stubborn student about how to write. She had written a number of essays in university, and got universally walloped for them. The reason for that was that she couldn't write - really, at all. She was really, really bad at writing. And so, I was sitting down with her, trying to explain to her what she was doing wrong. She was being very annoying about it, very recalcitrant, very, very unwilling to listen. That was a pearls-before-swine thing. At one point, she said, "I can write perfectly well. The university professors just don't like my style" - and I could feel my hands creep towards her neck. That'd be funny if it wasn't true, but it was also true. I thought, 'What the hell's with you? You can't even write, and you think you have a style?' Not knowing how to write, is not a style. That's the other point. Instead of humbling herself, which was necessary and OK, because she was a new university student - of course you don't know how to write; when were you going to learn? In school? I don't think so. So she had this style issue, and it just didn't go anywhere, at all, in terms of letting things burn off. So she was proud of her insufficiency. That's arrogance. That's not humility: it's self-deception and arrogance, to be proud of your insufficiency. That's a very foolish thing. That means, to cling to the parts of you that are dead."
JORDAN PETERSON
https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/transcripts/biblical-series-xi/
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Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
can you please tell me what you mean by moderate public knowledge?
I think this is a reference to schools and universities being the institutions we (society) have entrusted with the moderation (discerning validity/invalidity) of available knowledge.
And if one dismisses such institutions, what then is the societal moderator of knowledge?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#28140160 - 01/14/23 07:59 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Universities, as higher education, actually do teach some sophisticated courses, and if you qualify to take them, you know it is not bullshit.
I should not be surprised that more people do not pursue it;
we do not all have the same aptitude or capacity to accept people's differences.
I wish it were otherwise, but Jordan Peterson has a large natural following among the under-educated insecure male cohort who exchange his videos instead of having their own opinions.
There is a fair bit of political crossover with it that is very concerning.
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: doolhoofd]
#28140168 - 01/14/23 08:04 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
doolhoofd said:
"I remember, once, I was trying to teach a particularly stubborn student about how to write..."
I think Peterson is referring more to the overall syntax, grammar and scientific communication as an overall communication style in essay writing rather than a single misspelled word.
Your fixation on that one word is concerning. The same applies to your fixation on Peterson.
I have a clinical psychologist on my team too (my research supervisor) who appreciates my writing and doesn't flip the table if I misspell a word in an email to him (hell he misspells words too on occasion as he is mature enough to know that on busy schedules people mistype and that is not a reflection of their personal character insofar as it is the exception rather than the rule)
Besides, if you look at my writing skills holistically, I'm sure any reasonable person can see my writing skills are not inferior to yours. I could make an argument that they are superior but I like to stay humble and in this case my goal is only to defend myself from your ad hominem.
Quote:
doolhoofd said:
Rhizomorph, please stop editing and altering and adding*redundant synonyms interfere with the flow of writing* material to your posts after placing them.
See how ridiculous this is? We're on an online forum not an essay writing class for Jordan Peterson... I spend serious time doing school work as it's essentially my job at this point. I fuck around on the Shroomery in my leisure time. Get over yourself
Anywho, I don't have time for this anymore. You're not staying relevant, and I don't need your validation, nor must I center your narrative as it seems you're attempting to get me to do.
Let's just agree to disagree. Afterall, if your focus is on my character rather than my argument, I'm sure you can respect & appreciate my openness in my ability to tolerate uncertainty & opposing views, as I can appreciate for you too. Cheers!
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/14/23 08:40 PM)
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#28140640 - 01/15/23 05:43 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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educational institutions need not be gatekeepers of knowledge! they are part of a system that is unduly biased by money and power! thirty years ago, before widespread use of the internet, if i wanted to learn about something very specific, ie, chirality in liquid crystals, to get the most in depth information, i had to go thru these gatekeepers! that is absolutely no longer the case! educational institutions are for those that wish to be spoon fed. and this spoon feeding is meant to consist of a diet that is fully non disruptive!
that's not to say there also isn't an issue with the internet being a gateway to knowlege. what can be accessed is almost endless, but also the nature of the ai that is running things concentrates power in such few hands. ai w/ it's algorithms can filter out information that doesn’t support what a centralized power wants.
when it comes to science, the majority of research is funded by commercial interests with financial interests. it is steered by those with powerful vested interests. let me be clear, i’m not saying science is bad, i’m saying biased science is bad science! the scientific method should be immune to bias, but the body of information that it accumulates can easily obtain bais!
institutions, both the educational kind and not, have become incredibly fragile because they're built for growth, and that plan for their growth obligates them to tell untruths, and to hide certain ideas and data. these institutions have to make sure that certain ideas do not even reach the bottom entrance of their pyramid structure.
frequently, over the past fifty or so years, great ideas that exist on the fringes of science are suppressed, bc they are disruptive to an institutional order. for example, when it comes to the current editorial system that publishes data in peer reviewed scientific journals, how can you be sure that it is the most reliable data being published when there is an institutional order that seeks to suppress ideas largely due to vested interests?
to control the masses perceptions must be censored, suppressed, manipulated and marginalized.
it’s not hard to imagine that humans are presently living in orwell’s 1984.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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30 years ago and more, we used books. they still exist, and a person with interest can self educate.
You may not know this, but when schools work properly they teach students how to learn, which really means how to teach yourself.
Watching videos only makes sense after you have explored the matter in books.
Universities are not gatekeepers of anything, they are places where you find learning and learners. It costs money to have professors on staff as living resources and catalysts. You can still learn a lot without going to university, but it is worth it if you can go.
Almost all books can be obtained free in epub or pdf form and with very little initiative (easier than buying drugs) you can find and download a library that you can read on your phone which exceeds the university library of 30 years ago.
My sense is that you have not been that strong in reading books.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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i see now that this did not come across clearly in my post. i get the majority of my information from reading books. to find those books, i use the internet. to purchase those books, i use the internet. without the internet i wouldn't find these books. i do not read from pdf's bc i write all over the insides of my books as i read a long. i don't need school to have access to these books. however, the internet is helpful in me finding a book and purchasing it.
i disagree, schools do not teach individuals how to think for themselves.
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doolhoofd
doolhoofd.com
Registered: 12/22/22
Posts: 356
Loc: Dorsia
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
I wish it were otherwise, but Jordan Peterson has a large natural following among the under-educated insecure male cohort who exchange his videos instead of having their own opinions.
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Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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institutions, both the educational kind and not, have become incredibly fragile because they're built for growth, and that plan for their growth obligates them to tell untruths, and to hide certain ideas and data. these institutions have to make sure that certain ideas do not even reach the bottom entrance of their pyramid structure.
frequently, over the past fifty or so years, great ideas that exist on the fringes of science are suppressed, bc they are disruptive to an institutional order. for example, when it comes to the current editorial system that publishes data in peer reviewed scientific journals, how can you be sure that it is the most reliable data being published when there is an institutional order that seeks to suppress ideas largely due to vested interests?
Pyramids, or hierarchy, exist in every modern society. Getting rid of education doesn't change this. Historically and at present, withholding education leads to far worse forms of subjugation.
Maybe this is what you mean by gatekeeping? Education provides opportunities that aren't available without it?
Who taught you to read? Was this indoctrination? Or was this a tool to better enable you to explore the available knowledge? It wasn't that long ago that women were not taught how to read. That is gatekeeping. And it wasn't that long before that when the general public wasnt taught how to read. Wide spread literacy is a new comer on the scene, but it's a product of institutionalized education.
Is there still inequality in education? Yes. Financially there are big hurdles. But a university holds a lot of educational value because it provides additional tools for exploring the world and the information within. It continues to build on the capabilities of reading, writing, and mathematics. Experts provide relevant context, distilling years/decades of relevant knowledge on a topic for a new generation to build upon without having to start from scratch. It provides a solid foundation to build on top of, a foundation that begins at a higher level than it would without the education. Similar to how literacy provides a greater foundation to build upon than being illiterate.
There may be a reason colleges take flack for being progressive. The goal is to keep progressing knowledge!
The world does not operate in an unlimited way. But in certain societies we have a ton of liberties. The ability to swim the way we want to swim. Some want to swim back towards the dark ages, living in fear of that which illuminates the world around us. People identify with their gender in unique ways? And there is a whole field of exploration opening up around it? Turn that light off, I don't want to see it! I don't think it's a good idea personally but if society at large wants to live in the dark we may get there.
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi
Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,619
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle]
#28140731 - 01/15/23 07:21 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Why do we need gender. Once (if) we've evolved away our sex organs in favor of an altogether greater (yet presumably much less fun) form of reproduction...(then) is there any real need for it? It being gender.
I probably have got it all wrong because idk wtf gender actually is. Don't mind one way or the other b/c it doesn't impact my life all too much for now, not when I tend towards relating to people on a 1 on 1 basis, as individuals. And not trying to subscribe to any one unnuanced group-think that blankets the picture of things into an Us vs Them type of mentality.... again, rather preferring to gather a sense of each individual's own unique being over time if when possible.
I do know I've never seen, read, or heard of anything beyond those either with vaginas, wieners, or most rare of them all- both.
Then again, I think that's actually more related to one's sex. 
So again - gender is like...what?
We've all got "the pudding" but what flavor is yours...is your gender...or something?
And since flavor is subject to change, then gender is fluidic?
(until it settles for a bit, then becoming the current essential flavor to one's pudding / for the time being anyway - or something).
Please excuse my lack of tact (if perceived as such). I've yet to have my morning cup. Also, I'm mostly ignorant wrt the subject matter. 
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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
Edited by The Blind Ass (01/15/23 07:39 AM)
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Please excuse my lack of tact
It's using the word pudding in relation to gender identity... 
Morning! 
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi
Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 27,619
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#28140755 - 01/15/23 07:39 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Morning Kiki
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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle]
#28140760 - 01/15/23 07:47 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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personal expression or style can have a perceived gendered nuance.
personal expression includes body posture, movement, vocal patterns, hygiene, garments, choice of venue, and companions.
the perceived nuance varies depending on who is doing the perceiving.
at this juncture in our social voyage, we are learning to own our own perceptions and turn them to more tolerant reflexes, but there is still a lot of prejudice. it takes time and effort.
@thealienthatategod
epubs on the phone are the best way to read in bed.
pdfs suck most of the time.
get blank books for writing, don't hoard or write in physical books, read them and gift them without your scrawlings. keep or burn your handwritten books as suits the occasion.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Row, row, row the boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily merrily merrily
Life is like a dream
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle]
#28140904 - 01/15/23 09:42 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Edit: I had not seen Kickle's previous post. They summed up much of what I said below very nicely +1 Kickle!
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
educational institutions need not be gatekeepers of knowledge! they are part of a system that is unduly biased by money and power!
What about those educational disciplines who are precisely analyzing the question of social power through cultural and epistemological production?
I.e., critical theorists & sociology departments. There's a reason sociology is marginalized within academia... They are always addressing the issue of capitalism, & power in the very institutions that fund them (and for the sake of humility, themselves too).
University decision makers don't like it when they themselves become the subject of analysis...
For all the problems in western academia, science & epistemology are not the issue, however. Meta-narratives surrounding the validity of how science is wielded & applied across differing social & economic contexts are a problem, on the other hand.
For example, the ideals that are temporally connected to the so-called 'enlightenment era' of science; this notion that pure objectivity exists and we can make deterministic discoveries. Of course, in an ever-changing, post-industrial, subjective social world with near-infinite possibilities, these principles don't really stand the test of time beyond maybe physics; and even then, there is always the question of how the individual at the microscope interprets the data given their culture, their lab's social positionality, their psychology, etc.
Despite this post-modern (& seemingly apocalyptic) world, we still require educational standards as any alternatives witness far greater consequences (including threats to our fundamental rights & freedoms *in some instances* were they to become the dominant ideology(s); a repeat of history).
Regardless of the validity of academia in the ultimate sense, it really just boils down to pragmatics. Cultural relativism only gets us so far before we are complicit in abuses of power because if we try to step in, people will always claim "the institutions are taking our autonomy away". There is likely no fundamental autonomy in the way people want to believe. We are socialized ideologically, intellectually, etc. regardless of our education. That is the nature of social life.
Pink Floyd's "we don't need no education" might as well be translated to "we don't need no socialization" I.e., "let's all go live under a rock". Don't get me wrong, I love Pink Floyd but if you take the message too literally you rob yourself of actually making use of the wisdom & mentorship within academia that no level of personal learning can replace. There is, objectively, an ineffective - dare I say, wrong - way to learn; a method which yields highly inaccurate knowledge which demonstrably harms people individually & collectively.
The relevant question is around who wields the power of knowledge production, & it's cultural & political implications; how can we reduce the exploitation of various social strata that occurs through these epistemic hegemonies? Knowledge production will be assumed by some institution/ideology or another regardless; this is a sociological fact of the human condition.
I really don't see the merit in simplifying it to "school = good or school = bad" (this seems intellectually lazy). It's a complicated social structure made up of many parts (individuals, cultures, policies, economics, etc. etc.) some of which are good and some are bad. It is probably more productive to directly address the parts that are dysfunctional (like those damned board of governers at my University who turned down my policy proposal to protect people who use drugs but that's another story...)
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/20/23 01:24 PM)
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Lucis
Nutritional Yeast
Registered: 03/28/15
Posts: 15,622
Last seen: 4 months, 14 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Rhizomorph] 1
#28142192 - 01/16/23 01:21 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I think gender might be a construct of society, I could be wrong. What makes a man a man or a woman a woman and why does it matter. Why not just be.
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Lucis]
#28142207 - 01/16/23 01:33 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I'm much more interested in the question of positive clinical outcomes for people who identify as trans *edit: who are experiencing gender dysphoria (being trans itself is not pathological)* rather than the question of whether or not they exist as an ontological category.
Unfortunately a dominant culture of transphobia means I find myself being dragged into ontological conversations of the sort with most people, despite my clear attempts to resist having them.
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/18/23 11:04 AM)
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RJ Tubs 202
Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,175
Loc: USA
Last seen: 5 days, 17 hours
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#28142723 - 01/16/23 11:33 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Is there still inequality in education? Yes. Financially there are big hurdles. But a university holds a lot of educational value because it provides additional tools for exploring the world and the information within. It continues to build on the capabilities of reading, writing, and mathematics. Experts provide relevant context, distilling years/decades of relevant knowledge on a topic for a new generation to build upon without having to start from scratch. It provides a solid foundation to build on top of, a foundation that begins at a higher level than it would without the education. Similar to how literacy provides a greater foundation to build upon than being illiterate.
There may be a reason colleges take flack for being progressive. The goal is to keep progressing knowledge!
One objection to many colleges in the US is that there's so much inequality in the perspectives they teach to the students. (And there's much disagreement on exactly what "progressive" means. I think some "progressive" ideas are regressive, and some views I see as progressive are not seen by others as progressive.)
This inequality creates in students a fragile biased foundation. I am appalled by the one-sided partisan political views I was fed for 5 years of university schooling. I am dismayed by the one-sided partisan political views my son is being taught. It's the one-sided aspect that's the problem.
College education isn't generally focused on presenting a wide variety of perspectives (a prerequisite for critical thinking). It's often about political indoctrination. Many professors (like some journalists) are now coming out and admitting they see their roles as political activists. They see politics as a battle between good & evil, and they are true believers in their cause.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Arm your children with discretion, not bullets.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
One objection to many colleges in the US is that there's so much inequality in the perspectives they teach to the students. (And there's much disagreement on exactly what "progressive" means. I think some "progressive" ideas are regressive, and some views I see as progressive are not seen by others as progressive.)
This inequality creates in students a fragile biased foundation. I am appalled by the one-sided partisan political views I was fed for 5 years of university schooling. I am dismayed by the one-sided partisan political views my son is being taught. It's the one-sided aspect that's the problem.
College education isn't generally focused on presenting a wide variety of perspectives (a prerequisite for critical thinking). It's often about political indoctrination. Many professors (like some journalists) are now coming out and admitting they see their roles as political activists. They see politics as a battle between good & evil, and they are true believers in their cause.
Sure. A professor will bring themselves to a lecture. No avoiding it. But, at least in my University, the professors wanted to be challenged. They wanted people to question, to engage. Not to be passive. Passive learners made them wonder what they were doing. They could just as easily print slides, hand them out, and go home if all anyone wants to do is sit passively. That's a waste of the potential in the environment.
There was an expectation of civility and I don't think it's undue. But questioning a line of thinking was always seen as good in my collegiate experience.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle]
#28143198 - 01/16/23 04:15 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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maybe everything went down hill?
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Could be, I am aging 
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle]
#28143234 - 01/16/23 04:32 PM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I complained when I went there, but that was just for continuity's sake, what's life without a rant?
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle] 1
#28143909 - 01/17/23 03:13 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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RJ Tubs' post explained it succinctly, i think.
what i was saying about gatekeepers, educational institutions need not be gatekeepers! these institutions do not wish people to realize that they are a farce, they don’t wish ppl to realize that they are no longer useful or relevant!
as far as challanging ideas, see my first post in this thread about "gender affirming care." - this is referring to what is taking place in clinical practice, but this is the same kind of shenanigans that is being "taught" in school. ideas are not meant to be challenged! if someone challenges the status quo they will be censored! the gatekeepers fear losing control! the most unique, creative, and free ideas are likely to be the ideas that are most disruptive!
i don’t think that being “progressive” is synonyms with progressing knowledge. what does progressive mean to you?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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"progressive" is an abused and divisive word in today's webalog.
do not buy into divisive triggers, mostly they hook up with divisive guns. (did you trade yours in yet for some good books?)
this statement Quote:
"the most unique, creative, and free ideas are likely to be the ideas that are most disruptive!"
is too general, but ideas worth following do involve change, and people who cannot adapt to change suffer.
Organized groups of people suffering change may call change disruptive, but they are too stuck on the status quo.
I would organize against violence and against disruption. At this point people can read the quote backwards and assume that disruption is the most creative idea, while all it does is ruin works in progress.
In the meantime, working against violence and disruption is not support for status quo, but it does let works in progress, that are patently creative, produce the kind of fruit we need.
As for harvesting ideas, that is the nature of human cultures. Individuals fame is fleeting, but really good ideas, like flush toilets last.
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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is the change that a biological male who identifies as women, can use the women's locker room, an idea worth following?
this is a change that is saying okay to a certain kind of violence.
fish cannot carry guns!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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I might be a locker room joke, but if it involves your neighbour, then speak with your neighbour,
fish don't need guns
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
RJ Tubs' post explained it succinctly, i think.
what i was saying about gatekeepers, educational institutions need not be gatekeepers! these institutions do not wish people to realize that they are a farce, they don’t wish ppl to realize that they are no longer useful or relevant!
as far as challanging ideas, see my first post in this thread about "gender affirming care." - this is referring to what is taking place in clinical practice, but this is the same kind of shenanigans that is being "taught" in school. ideas are not meant to be challenged! if someone challenges the status quo they will be censored! the gatekeepers fear losing control! the most unique, creative, and free ideas are likely to be the ideas that are most disruptive!
i don’t think that being “progressive” is synonyms with progressing knowledge. what does progressive mean to you?
Did you attend a college/university? Or is this what you see from the outside? What is informing your view here?
Progressive in a university setting represents to me a continual accumulation of new information and ongoing exploration of it's implications. Usually with youth as the energetic driving force for this exploration.
In a political sense I think it's more about societal systems that seem broken. Like prison reform would be a progressive ideal, or healthcare reform, or gun law reform, or educational reform, etc.
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CreonAntigone
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,933
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
is the change that a biological male who identifies as women, can use the women's locker room, an idea worth following?
this is a change that is saying okay to a certain kind of violence.
fish cannot carry guns!
Is the idea that a feminine presenting person should be forced to use the men's bathroom, or worse the men's prison, an idea worth following?
That is a reality that is saying okay to a certain kind of violence; except that the violence is against trans people, so it goes unnoticed or unregarded.
Trans people are not more likely to commit assault! Stop committing this ridiculous hateful fallacy, provide proof that we are monsters attacking people in bathrooms, or stop spreading that bullshit.
What IS true, proven by studies, is that trans people are more often the victims of all kinds of violence and especially sexual violence, by a factor even higher than biological women.
This idea of a trans person assaulting someone in a bathroom is paraded around in anecdotes by rightwing blogs, if they can even find any actual stories of it, and is simply a bigoted myth. Whereas, trans women getting attacked in men's spaces is the constant, continual reality today.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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like the cattle industry before Temple Grandin
ignorant ideas abound
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Quote:
CreonAntigone said:
Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
is the change that a biological male who identifies as women, can use the women's locker room, an idea worth following?
this is a change that is saying okay to a certain kind of violence.
fish cannot carry guns!
Is the idea that a feminine presenting person should be forced to use the men's bathroom, or worse the men's prison, an idea worth following?
That is a reality that is saying okay to a certain kind of violence; except that the violence is against trans people, so it goes unnoticed or unregarded.
Trans people are not more likely to commit assault! Stop committing this ridiculous hateful fallacy, provide proof that we are monsters attacking people in bathrooms, or stop spreading that bullshit.
What IS true, proven by studies, is that trans people are more often the victims of all kinds of violence and especially sexual violence, by a factor even higher than biological women.
This idea of a trans person assaulting someone in a bathroom is paraded around in anecdotes by rightwing blogs, if they can even find any actual stories of it, and is simply a bigoted myth. Whereas, trans women getting attacked in men's spaces is the constant, continual reality today.
there is a biological male that comes into the women's locker room that i use daily.
if i am getting changed in the common area, as i used to, and so are they, although not maliciously indecently exposing themself, i am witness to them in a way that feels indecent. this is what i mean by violence. i don’t mean physically assaulting someone.
i now get changed in a bathroom stall while they use the open space. it is one thing, for me, an adult women to see a naked biological male in what was a space for biological females, but what about the eight year old girls that are also changing in this space?
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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Re: Gender... What is it. [Re: Kickle]
#28144303 - 01/17/23 11:29 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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the main issue with formal education is that it does not keep curiosity alive or promote intellectual curiosity. it is a system where achievement depends more on doing, going through the correct motions, then on learning and engaging with the curriculum. instead of being able to think deeply about the content of a course, a student is forced to focus on managing the workload and honing in on a strategy that will help them achieve high grades, while frequently breeding anxiety, deception, and frustration. students are taught that if they pursue high grades they will be successful. some are forced to sacrifice their health or their honesty in order to do what they believe will help them succeed, not just in school but in the future.
my personal experience is that formal education, especially higher education is not abound with passion. keeping in mind this is not to say that within the system there are not caring teachers and innovative programs. before school i loved learning and the excitement that accompanied it, school tried to beat that out of me. i entered kindergarten able to read, and right away was segregated from my peers because of this. i was literally forced to go sit in a room alone while my peers wld do group reading, my issues started here, and persisted through my entire educational career.
educational endeavors are so frequently seen as a means to an end, and the endeavor itself ends up losing its meaning and value in this state. too often getting ahead requires manipulating the system, scheming, lying, and cheating. students learn to manipulate the system in order to keep themselves from going nuts. this is difficult environment for those who don’t play games and wish to achieve success while staying true to their core values or ideals.
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,978
Last seen: 2 days, 14 hours
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Outliers are difficult for social institutions to accommodate. That is true in education as well as gender.
I don't doubt it was tough in your early education. And that the experience is relevant to your relationship with education at large. Thanks for sharing it helps me to understand your point of view more.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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curiosity is something that we have to develop and foster within our own character, if we do not enjoy discovery the educational institution will not be able to fix that.
curiosity is closely related to a sense of play - playfulness.
Individual teachers may be able to help unlock it in some students, but this is very hit and miss.
Everything works together, our inner inclination, our family, our school, everyone we meet along the way.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,660
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 7 hours, 11 minutes
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I agree, resting an education/ curiosity soley on the feet of educators or institutions, is not sound and is not the full picture. I spend 20 to 30 mins a day (doesnt sound like much, but its just enough)for each of my children, it can be something milquetoast to something serious..... but just that in itself has fostered many postive and wonderful things ....need to combat solely learning from a screen.
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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (01/17/23 02:06 PM)
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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more on the shenanigans taking place in schools, where staff in the case below, facilitated a child’s social gender transition without the parents consent.
What Happens in Classrooms Shouldn’t Stay in Classrooms
Conflating teaching with social gender transitioning jeopardizes the well-being of children while relegating parents to bystanders
Quote:
School permission forms requesting consent are routine. They are sent home for anything from cough drops to field trips. Thus, parents would reasonably expect involvement in classroom issues related to their children’s mental health.
A recent event shows that this expectation might be unfounded. A New Hampshire mother who discovered her child was using different pronouns at school sued her school district when, despite her objections, staff continued to facilitate her child’s social gender transition in compliance with a school policy requiring the new identity be concealed at the student’s request.
Lawsuits brought by parents alleging parental rights offenses have been seen in multiple states in response to school transgender policies that parents say are overruling their constitutional fourteenth amendment rights to direct the upbringing of their children. These policies recommend hiding students’ social gender transitions in accordance with the National School Board Association’s 2016 transgender student guidance, which advises school staff to avoid unnecessary disclosure of a student’s transgender status to parents.
All children, including transgender kids, deserve respect and acceptance. But passionate efforts to frame social gender transition as the only approach to gender incongruent children are not supported by a consistent body of evidence. Despite the American Academy of Pediatrics and other prominent US medical organizations advocating for the immediate acceptance of a child’s transgender identity, thereby paving the way for future transgender medical and surgical interventions, many experts disagree that current research justifies this recommendation. Sweden, Finland, the United Kingdom and France have all walked back gender-affirming treatments for children after an extensive review of the literature revealed that gender-questioning kids did not necessarily fare better as a result.
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Conflating teaching with impactful social gender transitioning is a dangerous mistake that jeopardizes the well-being of children while relegating parents to mere bystanders.
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CreonAntigone
Stranger
Registered: 05/30/21
Posts: 2,933
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Quote:
thealienthatategod said:
more on the shenanigans taking place in schools, where staff in the case below, facilitated a child’s social gender transition without the parents consent.
What Happens in Classrooms Shouldn’t Stay in Classrooms
I think a large part of the problem is the conflation of being gender-non conforming and 'transitioning'. It is the problem of the medical model of transgender care. It is well known by people that many kids, even ones who don't grow up transgender, explore cross-gender identification in play at least sometimes, and grow out of it. Or it stays a sometimes thing/ And the problem with the medical trans community is, it treats them as a case that *needs treatment*, in other words it demonizes and medicalizes and calls them sick. And then they 'prescribe' transition as a treatment for a supposed sickness, when nothing was wrong. And even if someone is trans, it isn't a sickness either. The medical ideology just harms true treatment, which is to be accepted.
There is also the extremely wrongheaded idea among trans people that transition has to be fast or it doesn't work - that if you aren't on hormones by puberty you've failed. This is true only for a small portion of trans people. First off most do not need hormones at all. And so the medicalization is a system of conformity, enforced upon anyone who doesn't conform.
An even bigger problem: are such transitions assisted by the school a child acting on their own, or are they being pushed? Because pushing someone to be trans is as bad as pushing someone not to be trans; it's the same thing.
Now I see the other side on this in one way: that there are some homes where students want to be called one way or be considered a gender, and no one in their family will support it. That's obviously why the school is hiding it - and yet to call a new set of pronouns a 'transition' turns a simple change in naming or consideration to a medical intervention. Again it medicalizes it, which is the same as to stigmatize it. I don't think the school trying to become judge jury and executioner for the child, making all these important decisions, is the right call either; after all schools can be just as bigoted as parents, so it doesn't solve anything.
On the one hand, should schools have to report anytime a child presents in a gender their parents don't want? For example, if mom doesn't want billy wearing a skirt, and he does, must the school report it? I don't think they'd have to, nor would they want to. And nor would a school have to report it if a kid asked their friends to use a certain name. They may not even have to report it if a kid just asks teachers to be considered a different name - after all every kid uses nicknames, and nicknames are not a 'tell parents' kind of thing. They only need to report it to parents when it becomes a medical intervention. And there is the issue with the medical model. By transforming a change in clothes or change in name or pronoun into a medical intervention, a transition, they limit a child's options to do what they want, force them down a certain path and limit their future.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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great points
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thealienthatategod
retrovertigo
Registered: 10/10/17
Posts: 2,692
Last seen: 1 month, 7 days
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why the medicalization of transiting now? is this just because science can make it happen? what i see is an industry, that is suited to make massive profits.
i mostly had boy friends growing up, dressed like a boy, was interested in "boy" things, i cried when my mom told me that i had to start swimming with a shirt on. i watched my brother have more freedoms then me (like walking downtown by himself), bc he was a boy, and it made me jealous. wld this get carried away to a different level in 2023?
the interview i posted with the young woman who detransitioned is very enlighteneing. at one point, she talks about how social media shaped her image of what a biological female shld be. social media gave her an impression that much that comes with being a biological female is terrifying, and bc she didn't physically have large breasts, (just one thing she talked about) she felt like she cldn't compete with other biological females. social media made her feel like she didn't fit an ideal, and defined being a woman in one way only. meanwhile if she had been a child before the existance of social media, wld she have just gone on to be a tomboy, and that wld have been fine and normal?
i wonder how much social media has changed people's (in particular a child's) impressions over what a man or woman is over the past twenty years?
i jut caught something on the tv this morning, in passing, that canned tuna sales/consumption are up are amongst young a young demographic bc of influencers on tiktok.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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what about the mercury in canned tuna??
I agree that medical transitioning - especially of individuals younger than voting age, or age of majority, age of consent - is immoral and it leaves a dirty money trail.
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Rhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 786
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Great points Creon!
Throughout my clinical training I often need to remind myself that being trans is not equivalent to a pathological condition. Of course, I understand this explicitly, but at an implicit level, the clinical, medical, & educational world often conflates gender nonconformity with pathology because, on the surface, it appears that way due to the disproportional health problems trans people experience. Especially among my non-queer peers the majority of their exposure to trans people are their clients who tend to be ill.
Gender dysphoria & comorbid disorders are the issue, not peoples' gender identities. We need improved trans-centered education & competency for practitioners & care providers alike to avoid this conflation & it's unfortunate outcomes...
I agree with everything you said!!
Quote:
CreonAntigone said:
This idea of a trans person assaulting someone in a bathroom is paraded around in anecdotes by rightwing blogs, if they can even find any actual stories of it, and is simply a bigoted myth. Whereas, trans women getting attacked in men's spaces is the constant, continual reality today.
!!!
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/18/23 11:06 AM)
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