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Offlineviraldrome
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: Northerner]
    #27747854 - 04/23/22 09:16 AM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
I'm not talking about active military, shooting guns at enemies, service. I'm talking about national service where you give a paid year of your life to your country. There's much to do, and giving young people life experience and showing them that they are equal to their peers in every way can unify.

Of course it's a pipe dream in places like the US, far too divisive and fucked up, but in many other nations it's standard. Even some of the most prosperous and happy nations in the world like Switzerland.




I'm Canadian but 18 year old me would totally have resented being forced to do shit for my country. They put my friends in jail and called me a criminal, I don't feel I owe the government shit. What happens when I refuse? What are they going to force me? Do the bully thing like metal jacket, scream at you until you comply, and get the others to gang up on you?

18 year olds in my country can't stop raping each other at keg parties, I would not be happy sending my daughter off to that shit. Even if its really noble stuff, like digging wells in a community that needs them, it should be volunteer, not forced. Now if the government set up a young volunteers corps where they paid all or part of your school tuition I bet it would be a rousing success, it's the forced part of it I don't like.

The tourism guide book for Korea says don't get in any fights there as they have compulsory military training where they all take Tae Kwando so everyone you meet in the bar in Korea is a trained killer who can street fight, and almost for sure kick your ass. Korean riots, there aren't many, but they are fucking awesome because of this. But I digress


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: viraldrome]
    #27748563 - 04/23/22 06:59 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

They're making some of us do it, before we are allowed to graduate a highschool that teaches no marketable job skills.

:evil: Freedom is assumed, or taken -- never earned.

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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: Asante]
    #27748578 - 04/23/22 07:10 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Talk is now of "the Swedish Model" of draft, which is draft everyone with option to decline, see if those motivated enough to show up are enough in numbers and if needed, recruit some extra.

Theres no point in unmotivated enlisted soldiers.

Its utterly unlikely that the Russians will march into Holland, given the powers we are surrounded by, but if they do i'd be utterly unappreciative.

I can't fight, too fat, too old, but I do know how the lemonade is made and I'd happily help the resistance with that.







U could manufacture bombs using your chemistry skills :yesnod:

The fact that Holland has to be worried about invaded is just plain fucked up. Its almost like all hope is lost when such a non-violent country has to be prepared for possible War. Just shows the state of the World concerning radical leaders like Putin. :nonono:


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #27748627 - 04/23/22 07:45 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Sounds like a lot of wind to me with concerns of Russia attacking the world at large. Fear mongering generated my media.

For Russia

1. It's an unwinnable fight
2. There's no precedent
3. Russians don't want that

Concerning Ukraine

1. Winnable fight
2. There's generations of precedent
3. Many (if not most) Russians consider Ukraine part of Russia

Sure Russia wants a hard border against NATO in the form of Ukraine. That war has been going on for many years, many lives civilian and military on both sides have been lost. This is not a new war despite the news frenzy. Russia has never suggested in any way that it wants to attack Europe. Only the media has suggested that... and of course Zelensky. He's become a media puppet suggesting all sorts of theories. Anything he can say that will get people to fire guns for him he will say.

And the US and Euro people be all

:panic:

The west isn't used to war being so close, they prefer sending their troops further away.

History is firmly embedded between Russia and Ukraine. After the starvation genocide by communist USSR in Ukraine it was repopulated by Russians. The closer to the Russian border you go the closer the ties have always remained.

Imagine, for an instant, that the world had not sent billions of dollars of arms to Ukraine and they lost quickly. The country wouldn't have been leveled, The war would be over, new peace would be being discussed. What form that would take would mean that it would need to balance the wants of the people or face insurgency.

But no. It's turned into a humanitarian disaster and everyone seems to be gunning for it to turn into an international disaster. Because that's the right thing to do. :rolleyes:


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: Northerner] * 2
    #27748757 - 04/23/22 09:03 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

If you set the precedence of overwhelming forces achieving easy victories against weaker nations and getting their way with no repercussions, what's to stop powerful countries from just taking everything they want from the weak?

We've already been through this whole cycle with imperialism.

The whole reason we have created international systems of alliances and repercussions to aggression is to make wars of conquest & dominance too costly to even consider... So even the slightest steps down this road aren't worth it. It's better no one gets anything from another, or pays dearly trying to - than to give appeasement and endorse further aggression.

And yes still sometimes countries have to learn this the hard way.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: twighead]
    #27748774 - 04/23/22 09:19 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

You seem to ignore all the history and precedence in the region and have just decided ethically what and why from a western point of view. Very reminiscent of the Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Syria wars.

Except this time it's not just some sand people, it's a world superpower that is being taunted.

Insanity. Pure fucking insanity.

Quote:

twighead said:
And yes still sometimes countries have to learn this the hard way.



After decades of attempting to police the world, killing millions of people, destroying nations and never winning a single conflict decisively, the US led coalition hasn't learned it's not omnipotent.

All we've gained is dead men and women, generations of soldiers with PTSD, broken families, foreign animosity, a huge debt. No objective ever accomplished.

Still not learning the hard way.



I know these are unpopular words in a society full of self righteous rage. But hey, I'm calling it as I see it. If saner heads prevail we'll see more calls for deescaltion. Hopefully before it's too late.


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: Northerner]
    #27748810 - 04/23/22 09:43 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

I'm not sure how I did any of what you just said lol

Mind breaking down how you came to that conclusion from my post?


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: Northerner]
    #27748814 - 04/23/22 09:45 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

You say "the US led coalition still hasn't learned it's not omnipotent" but does the same not apply to Russia, the aggressor in this particular conflict? You seem to make a lot of excuses for them.

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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: psi]
    #27748861 - 04/23/22 10:04 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

I'm just pointing out the history. No one seems to care that this isn't an attack on the west, that it isn't a new war and we aren't suddenly in danger, that Russia sees Ukraine as part of it, that the ties are deep and old.

When in recent history did military action against anyone help in a situation like this?

I just see a trail of prolonged bloodshed in places I rarely heard of before, never anything good from interfering. We keep destroying nations like this by "peace keeping". It's been going on for decades.

Are we going to stand against China as well when they inevitably take Taiwan? What then? Shall we level Taiwan in an all out battle too? Or maybe just arm the fuck our of them so they can do it for themselves.

It's an insane spiral. Combating aggressors in fights that aren't ours and we can't possibly win keeps happening and failing. Yet here we are again.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: Northerner]
    #27748866 - 04/23/22 10:06 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

What if China decides to take Australia? Should the rest of us sit back and say "Que sera, sera, at least it's not us?"

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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: psi]
    #27748868 - 04/23/22 10:09 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Australia is part the military alliance AUKUS. The Ukraine is not. It's closest ties are Russia. Until recently it was one of the most corrupt countries in the world.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: psi]
    #27748869 - 04/23/22 10:10 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Like does it matter at all in your calculations that Ukraine does not see itself as part of Russia? or just "tough shit, the bully wants your land and you should let it happen."

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Invisiblepsi
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: Northerner]
    #27748873 - 04/23/22 10:14 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
Australia is part the military alliance AUKUS. The Ukraine is not. It's closest ties are Russia.



Let's say it wasn't though, just Australia on its own. China wants Australia and Australia doesn't want to be part of China. Should everyone else say "Tough shit Australia, you should probably just let China roll in with no resistance, but either way you're on your own?"

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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: psi]
    #27748894 - 04/23/22 10:41 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Many in Ukraine do see themselves as part of Russia. Many want to escape the tyrannical corruption it suffers and join the EU.

But either way that doesn't change reality. It doesn't change history. It doesn't mean we should go to war in Europe for an objective we cannot possibly win.

Picture the heavily shelled and broken middle east, but in Europe. that's what happens when you try to play world police. It isn't a school yard where one bully exists as an entity. We are talking about real people here. People who believe in their countries and their cultural ties. Even if you dissolve the countries by name the people don't just disappear. You have to kill everyone to stop the war. Genocide.

Quote:

psi said:
Quote:

Northerner said:
Australia is part the military alliance AUKUS. The Ukraine is not. It's closest ties are Russia.



Let's say it wasn't though, just Australia on its own. China wants Australia and Australia doesn't want to be part of China. Should everyone else say "Tough shit Australia, you should probably just let China roll in with no resistance, but either way you're on your own?"



Well Australia would have to be pretty fucking corrupt and off the scale for that to happen. Most countries have alliances.
Does China have deep roots in Australia? No. The analogy is defunct.

China and Taiwan in the other hand is a great example. Stepping in the middle of that shit would be a huge mistake as well.



I know this is all not nice. But reality hey. Are you ready to die or put your country on the line for Ukraine's sovereignty? I'm not. Recent history tells us why they aren't allies.

But the UK, EU or the US? I'd be helping in every way I possibly could if they were attacked. There's solid reasons we are aligned. I don't think any nation would be insane enough to do that though.



Really what I want to see is deescalation. We should be trying to resolve conflicts and influence and initiate peace talks to suit ours and global interests, not calling "WAR" from every highest point until the people are in a frenzy of irrational fear.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: Northerner]
    #27748897 - 04/23/22 10:43 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Nobody is going to war in Europe, they've just given Ukraine weapons.

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Invisiblepsi
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: psi]
    #27748920 - 04/23/22 11:00 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Except this time it's not just some sand people, it's a world superpower that is being taunted.

Insanity. Pure fucking insanity.




The insanity is coming from the Russian end. Bloodthirsty expansionism. Let's see if the Neville Chamberlain approach works though, as they try to reassemble the USSR from unwilling countries and build strength. Maybe Finland and Sweden should stay out of NATO to avoid angering them, that surely will keep them safe from Russia's wrath.

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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: psi]
    #27748921 - 04/23/22 11:00 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

And we are sanctioning the hell out of them.

The people talk, like this thread, is drafting armies. This is the major concern for our security as individuals and nations.

I just hope that the fear and animosity dies down enough that after the Ukraine conflict ends we can form some sort of treaty with Russia to prevent this sort of shit from happening again. It's highly concerning. We should have been trying to forge alliances and treaties with Russia long ago, maybe we could have talked them out of this insanity with carrots rather than futilely applying sticks reactively.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: Northerner]
    #27748924 - 04/23/22 11:05 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: psi]
    #27748930 - 04/23/22 11:09 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

That talk of drafting armies is not for an insane invasion of Russia. It is for a possible defensive war because Europeans have seen this one before. The insanity is all coming from one end here. Russia should grab their shit and GTFO of Ukraine, that's who's being insane and needs to back down.

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Re: There's talk in my country of reinstating the draft. [Re: psi]
    #27748976 - 04/23/22 11:56 PM (2 years, 26 days ago)

Nato needs to be retired. For the good of Europe.

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