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Rahz
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And again, we don't have to be able to determine something for it to be deterministic. We can't rule out some other (non)causative factor, but it could be fair to say we just don't understand rather than to say definitively that a thing is not deterministic.
If this is the crux of our disagreement that's fine. I was just trying to determine whether there was something more to it.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27893688 - 08/07/22 02:07 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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right, just words anyway
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starpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27893740 - 08/07/22 03:04 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Well, its passed.
I looked into the death anxiety stuff of Ernest Becker and didn't really find it too convincing myself. I'm also not sure what the endgame was for him with his work.
Though what shocked me most about the dude was he was married, a guy who's work seemed like a colossal bummer a lot of the time.
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ashfiken
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig] 1
#27895404 - 08/09/22 05:24 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I think the work was simply meant to be enlightening for those wondering about the problems in the overall culture of humans. Regardless where one grew up their environment or the ways they were indoctrinated, parcels of DA or terror management could be found the world over. As rahz said he didn't imply everyone was equally affected by this It's not a bummer it's a spotlight. It seems your interaction with life doesn't allow your self to interact with DA in a "normal" fashion. I almost see this as a jadedness with life, or some other camp atleast where YOUR own life is of not much value to you or of consequence. Differing for someone like myself whom does not have a traditional relationship with DA, in that I feel that my fear of death is sufficiently less than my fear of not living. I love experiencing, and growing, and learning, and fucking around, and building relationships, and building as many other complex things in life I fear death in that I hate and dread this lack of life. The end of things and oblivion, has its place, and i know, if I live a long life. I will be ready for it. But I'm not ready now, I clutch to everything around me as I see the beauty complexity and connection that the universe contains and I don't wanna stop staring at it anytime soon.
Anyway, all that to say I think many of us have differing and quite subjective relationships with death, but it is still a common thread amongst us all. Becker it seems to me was trying to highlight this thread and show how many obfuscate it and put so much defense and fear in between it themselves and the rest of humans This isn't necessarily gloomy, but it is humbling and sad that many humans choose to live with this much fear and masking kind of thought/actions, but recognizing this thread and being empathetic to such maybe we could all make it a bit better for one another. I think that was his end game Cheers And again rip ice.
-------------------- hmm... "I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked." "life isn't worth living without the threat of death" "I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be" "nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters" My Trade List
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starpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: ashfiken]
#27895416 - 08/09/22 05:45 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I don’t know, it looked to me as though he was saying that anything positive that resulted from life was the result of ignoring death anxiety. Self esteem for one and being a good person are armors to avoid having to reckon with mortality. Same with wanting to live a good life or being able to do something in order to help others. It seemed like it was all just a way to avoid having to deal with the fact we all did some day and we’re looking for a way to feel immortal. As is the case with your “lack of living” he would suggest that is another way to avoid death anxiety.
It doesn’t seem like a spotlight since we can’t really be sure if it even does motivate people like that but if it does he paints a grim view of life where you essentially have to lie to yourself to make it bearable. Even just looking at the first comment by Icelander seems to support that, which sort of leave me confused on what his game plan was exactly (Becker not Ice).
It didn’t seem like it was to make the world better dude equated self esteem with narcissism when the two are opposites
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Rahz
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27895436 - 08/09/22 06:37 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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He wasn't talking about anything positive in life, but rather the trappings of such things; religious status, the big house, proper car, etc. whatever one is "supposed" to have to achieve a happy life. It's nice to have a nice house but that doesn't make for a happy home and those social indicators clash which is the other side of the issue. Social groups, wrapped in their blankets of comfort are threatened by differences resulting in disapproval, strife, violence with other social groups. Genuine self esteem isn't threatened by such differences.
That's the thing about humanity, it's not generally what it appears to be because it's crafted for appearances. It seems like you haven't read Denial of Death so you would probably get something from it if you were to read it.
He probably would have liked Diogenes. Becker didn't advocate living outdoors but he did want people to examine the underlying reasons for why they do the things they do.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27895442 - 08/09/22 06:52 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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and I want to observe how perceptive reflexes work in a continuously self adjusting web behaviour and discovery.
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starpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27895505 - 08/09/22 08:01 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: He wasn't talking about anything positive in life, but rather the trappings of such things; religious status, the big house, proper car, etc. whatever one is "supposed" to have to achieve a happy life. It's nice to have a nice house but that doesn't make for a happy home and those social indicators clash which is the other side of the issue. Social groups, wrapped in their blankets of comfort are threatened by differences resulting in disapproval, strife, violence with other social groups. Genuine self esteem isn't threatened by such differences.
That's the thing about humanity, it's not generally what it appears to be because it's crafted for appearances. It seems like you haven't read Denial of Death so you would probably get something from it if you were to read it.
He probably would have liked Diogenes. Becker didn't advocate living outdoors but he did want people to examine the underlying reasons for why they do the things they do.
Oh I know stuff like that. A nice house doesn’t really mean it’s good home, I have experience with that. And just because people have money doesn’t make them good company. Same with social groups but it depends on the nature of those. Conflict is inevitable, as Buddha mentioned life is suffering, but what defines groups is how they deal with conflict (same with any relationship).
I don’t really consider it to be the death anxiety though.
Sometimes humanity is crafted for appearances and other times it’s real, raw, and powerful (and that’s the real feel, it’s why intimacy is a big fear of many). There are many facets to mankind that I can’t really pin them down to one particular thing.
I have read Denial of Death which is why I’m confused as to what exactly was the point of his work. Most other individuals I’ve read seemed to want humanity to benefit or something from it or have some goal for what they wish of the world. But him it just seems like he wanted peolke to be miserable by suggesting the good was us just avoiding death anxiety. He also didn’t agree with genuine self esteem as you are commenting but likened it to narcissism.
I’m all for examining the reason why we do the things we do but it seemed like he WANTED that to be death anxiety rather than actually looking at why that is.
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27895582 - 08/09/22 09:10 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I read it about 10 years ago and it was not good at all. If a bear is chasing us that's death anxiety. Or a deep stage cancer diagnosis. It's as if Becker got the most simple and essential thing wrong.
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Rahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
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It's been a long time for me as well.
I remember one aspect as social acceptance being likened to tribal acceptance. If you're kicked out of the tribe and alone in the wilderness death is likely.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27895639 - 08/09/22 09:43 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: It's been a long time for me as well.
I remember one aspect as social acceptance being likened to tribal acceptance. If you're kicked out of the tribe and alone in the wilderness death is likely.
although being shamed and shunned is horrific without any deathly connection.
As a very young child I remember being very repressed about things because of how my family laughed at me when I expressed my feelings naturally; such as when, at 2 1/2 years old, I discovered a young girl of the same age on the beach, and we walked hand in hand together for a half hour or so.
The fun both our families made of us afterwards shocked me into a pattern of secrecy and unpredictable choices with my nose hidden in books.
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ashfiken
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27895689 - 08/09/22 10:30 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: He wasn't talking about anything positive in life, but rather the trappings of such things; religious status, the big house, proper car, etc. whatever one is "supposed" to have to achieve a happy life. It's nice to have a nice house but that doesn't make for a happy home and those social indicators clash which is the other side of the issue. Social groups, wrapped in their blankets of comfort are threatened by differences resulting in disapproval, strife, violence with other social groups. Genuine self esteem isn't threatened by such differences.
That's the thing about humanity, it's not generally what it appears to be because it's crafted for appearances. It seems like you haven't read Denial of Death so you would probably get something from it if you were to read it.
He probably would have liked Diogenes. Becker didn't advocate living outdoors but he did want people to examine the underlying reasons for why they do the things they do.
I was gonna ask that next actually if he had read beckers first book.
Nothing of it ever appeared grim to me, simply an affectation that most humans fail to understand, and he his trying to lay down that understanding. With a spotlight on why and how it determines ppls beliefs, actions, and choices. Spotlighting these things to help humans make better of their options and better of each other. Self esteem didn't have much to do with it from what I could tell. I'm not sure on taking anything away about what is positive in life. Either that is a subjective thing as in, I find contentment in a b or c. Or it is objective, and in objectivity, can we really say whether anything humans do is positive OR negative when speaking about the universe at large?
And oh, absolutely "lack of living" is absolutely MY form of death anxiety. No denying that. But that's the point, one Becker made well, very few humans can really look in the eye of death, period. With the ideas he extrapolated upon and the willingness to look at death directly and with honesty, the methods and means one deals with it can be laid bare. One of ice, and my, favorite takes on that; whatever form of avoidance, you choose or fall into, should be healthy or positive or bring something good not negative, which is kinda the aura around death, and also one should be cognitively aware of these trappings as well. That is why Becker is worth reading. And I feel much more delighted at the fact I know why and cherish how I cling to life and everything in it, appreciating it all the more bc I know one day(someday soon) I will be without, as we all will.
-------------------- hmm... "I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked." "life isn't worth living without the threat of death" "I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be" "nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters" My Trade List
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ashfiken
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27895710 - 08/09/22 10:51 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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I think when you refer to self esteem, starpig, in beckers work, you are referring to heroism. I remember quite well the hero/akin to narcissism postulation. Don't remember the self esteem idea.
Those that do their best to create something "great" or a "legacy" to live on, is what was being referred to in denial of death. Those that attempt to achieve these things were doing so as a direct ploy against TMt Trying to stamp their place into the world so that they can "avoid" death, so to speak. I'd have to see or re read to understand where you are coming from in regard to self esteem itself. Heroism and a good life/positivity are also not the same. One can make positive influence or live a great life, without any heroism. I don't recall any talk about a good life or positivity, only heroism.
-------------------- hmm... "I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked." "life isn't worth living without the threat of death" "I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be" "nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters" My Trade List
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Ferdinando


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Quote:
redgreenvines said: As a very young child I remember being very repressed about things because of how my family laughed at me when I expressed my feelings naturally; such as when, at 2 1/2 years old, I discovered a young girl of the same age on the beach, and we walked hand in hand together for a half hour or so.
The fun both our families made of us afterwards shocked me into a pattern of secrecy and unpredictable choices with my nose hidden in books.
hahaha you sound like a wonderful child that's too bad though
sounds wonderful
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starpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: ashfiken]
#27895800 - 08/09/22 12:06 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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No her literally equated self esteem with narcissism which sort of raised an eyebrow for me.
His other works are a bit iffy too like the escape from evil where he says morality is another form of death denial.
I also don’t see the positive in his work. I don’t view his thoughts as a spotlight so much as a paint brush, and he’s trying to make death anxiety bleed into every facet of human existence. While I can agree that it affect some things about our lives I would disagree to the extent it is so.
I don’t know if he actually has facts to back this up as it still sounds like a pet theory than a fact. I mean from what I gather constantly being reminded of death tends to sour the mood a lot when out with people. It’s like being with friends and having fun and then going “you know we’re all gonna die some day”. Watch the buzz flatline after that. I find the practice counterproductive. Which is why I think his work seems to be to just bum people out by saying all the good feelings you have and meaning itself is just a way to escape the fact you’re gonna die. From that I’m guessing (as I think I said alerts but if I didn’t then here goes) you have to lie to yourself to make life worth living which sound similar IMO to that post by Icelander on page 1.
Which still has me wondering what his endgame was because I don’t think it works the way he envisioned it.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27895811 - 08/09/22 12:17 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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end game is the perspective not particularly lovely but people tend to lock onto end games punch lines the morals of stories...
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Buster_Brown
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Presumably the moral is that we must accept his work since he received a Pulitzer
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Rahz
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27895916 - 08/09/22 01:53 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
starpig said: It’s like being with friends and having fun and then going “you know we’re all gonna die some day”. Watch the buzz flatline after that. I find the practice counterproductive.
If that's all you think is to be got from examining the nature and response to mortality then it makes sense to not speak of it. But you said death sounds peaceful so why the buzz kill?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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ashfiken
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27895980 - 08/09/22 02:54 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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That's what I'm not getting? If life is the chore and death is peaceful oblivion to you, it should be not such a buzzkill. That's kinda the point tho isn't it? Making death NOT the elephant in the room. Having as healthy of a relationship with your mortality as possible. That is what I got from his works. His work was analyzing humans not trying to fix or make things nicer. But by analyzing one's own mortality it seems easier to come to one's own terms with it. Find a way it works for you to not have to layer up and protect in so many ways, and that provides for a more raw real existence. Ofc again for someone that relishes the idea and for whom life is a chore, I'm sure that ideology would produce different results related to death.
-------------------- hmm... "I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked." "life isn't worth living without the threat of death" "I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be" "nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters" My Trade List
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ashfiken
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27896011 - 08/09/22 03:22 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
starpig said: No her literally equated self esteem with narcissism which sort of raised an eyebrow for me.
I'd have to reread/see the excerpt to better relay a response. But, on a more personal note... Self esteem and narcissism. I guess for me it depends how far you take self esteem. If you have had any share of psychedelic you have experienced ego death. Pretty common phenomena, where multiple ego deaths have put me, is realizing, my life is inconsequential, it is but a snap of the fingers in the grand scheme of things. It's helped me create a worldview where I don't really have much need for self esteem. I know and understand my value and worth as trivial as it is, and I'm ok with it.
I guess that's where I see it, when self esteem is any more than the simple realization that, we are all short lived mostly dumb monkeys, it's narcissistic. You aren't helping your loved ones by thinking much of yourself, not helping your community by doing such, not helping the world, so what is the point of anymore than the taste of knowing who you are and being ok with it. It serves little purpose. Surely no other animal has self esteem, we are just animals with a neocortex in any case... We should/could do with a little more belittling ourselves IMHO as a species. Might be a good thing for the earth. And someone who sees all things as equal, it seems like a path to humans becoming more humble, and I guess the opposite end of that and more where we are going in an egocentric world is narcissism. Self esteem is only a function for the individual, but if the individual is not concerned with it, wouldn't that be better and easier? Being a function solely for oneself and taking it to any sort of lofty height, can easily, to me, be equated with narcissism. Most people are far too full of themselves. I see that each day. Maybe we need a dose of whatever Becker was trying to hand out to rattle some cages and show the monkeys just what they are.
-------------------- hmm... "I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked." "life isn't worth living without the threat of death" "I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be" "nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters" My Trade List
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