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Offlinestarpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27892216 - 08/06/22 08:05 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

So some form of determinism I’m guessing? I’ll be honest the why philosophers express their ideas tends to go over my head a lot.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
    #27892386 - 08/06/22 10:54 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

not determinism, more of complex mandalic contextual swervism in which all mental contents (both sensory and perceptive reflexes) are continuously sifting against each other in mind.

determinism is more of a withdrawal from life by objectifying a chain of events (alas...),
what I am talking about is full immersion in the torrent of now and how we feel about it.


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Offlinestarpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27892452 - 08/06/22 11:40 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

But that's still determined by factors and how they interact and impact each other though.

Still sounds like a more roundabout way to say determinism as it's a bunch of stuff sifting and interacting in the mind.

I don't see determinism as a withdrawal from life but more just a fact of how it is. An entire web of causes and effects that each impact each other, of which we are only privy to a small portion of the entire mechanism. Full immersion or not I don't think that changes and how you feel about stuff definitely seems to be the result of factors out of your control.

There were some studies in psychology that showed we don't have to be aware of a stimulus to be affected by it, though I can't remember the specific experiment it was. But I found it amazing, and I wonder what we could be affected by that we aren't aware of.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
    #27892517 - 08/06/22 12:45 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

absolutely out of control, but the term cause and effect is misleading, as each aspect that impinges on another is a living thing that surpasses full description.

when discussing cause and effect it would make sense to have formulae in your back pocket to bolster the consideration, however in the real world, the causes have effects before they are fully nameable causes (entities) and the effects are still conditionally unfolding as they impinge on the rest of the chaotic system.

rather than cause and effect (just 3 words of generalization leading to the gloomy assessment of determinism), it is an understandable oceanic chorusing of signals and mental reflex that one may track in real time, but the totality of it is so extensive that describing each frame of consciousness to any degree of honesty would take 2000 typewritten pages, and in the next tenth of a second another book could be written, or a large pamphlet of just the changes for every subsequent 1/10th of a second.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27892665 - 08/06/22 03:39 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I don't see determinism as gloomy.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
    #27892680 - 08/06/22 04:05 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

it is empowering if you can determine what is going on!


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27892693 - 08/06/22 04:26 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

It's okay to be confused.:sadyes:


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rahz

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
    #27892751 - 08/06/22 05:24 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
It's okay to be confused.:sadyes:



I try to be at least 75% confused


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Offlinestarpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27892757 - 08/06/22 05:30 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I'm still not sure about that. I don't see causes or effects as living things, just "is", if that makes sense.

Also just because we don't have the full story doesn't make it any lest deterministic. Our inability to completely track and measure every single factor doesn't make that any less so. It's more a reflection of our limitations and the mercy we are at reality. We seek to control but there are so many factors at play that we simply cannot and fail in the end. Only a meager amount of agency can be squeezed out from the grandeur of the cosmos.

Quote:

rather than cause and effect (just 3 words of generalization leading to the gloomy assessment of determinism), it is an understandable oceanic chorusing of signals and mental reflex that one may track in real time, but the totality of it is so extensive that describing each frame of consciousness to any degree of honesty would take 2000 typewritten pages, and in the next tenth of a second another book could be written, or a large pamphlet of just the changes for every subsequent 1/10th of a second.




This sort of sounds like making this stuff out to be more than it is. It sort of reminds me of those religious types who preach free will and go to any lengths to avoid saying their actions are determined even when we can more or less demonstrate as such. I also think you are overstating the amount at work that's going one, sure it's a lot but 2000 pages? That sounds a bit much.

People like to say there is chaos but it's really just order, granted an order we cannot hope to track and even then might not be able to control. Sort of like a colossal asteroid traveling to Earth.

I'd also add there is a difference between being able to track something and do something about it. You can track a storms progress but all you can really do is hunker down or get out of the way.

Though it does make me chuckle when people think of determinism as gloomy, as if that makes reality any less than it is. I would ask why you think as such? Plenty aren't bothered that reality is deterministic.


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Offlinestarpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
    #27892758 - 08/06/22 05:31 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
It's okay to be confused.:sadyes:



My life is lived on a need-to-know basis, it's worked out so far. No sense getting worked up in something you can't control.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
    #27892827 - 08/06/22 06:37 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I think you and Rhaz are considering that I am diminishing the causality that is embedded in our perceptive reflexes. This is not the case.
But it is not so simple, the plurality of causal changes (vectors of force) is just too big to be determinable at a reasonable scale in the time you might like to detect and determine them.

I refer to the dreary deterministic aspect, in the same way that I regard fatalism, i.e. with a dreary attitude that maybe we should give up as if everything were predetermined. And this is not the case either.

Even just considering this changes the outcome of some things from what they would have been had you not thought of them, yet there is no single way to have determined this post in advance of it being made.

Let us say that things are too complex for humans to model in entirety and thereby determine what will happen in a future year or century with absolute accuracy. Do we think that we will create an AI that can do it for us? at what accuracy could that work, and are we then talking about reality being 90% deterministic or 30% deterministic, to the limit of the best form of determinant system we can conceive of.

Or maybe this is a short cut back to the omnipotent one who has predetermined all.
Or maybe the determination is not a conscious determination but just the articulation of energy and particles that seem to operate faithfully to the tune of e=mc2.


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Offlinestarpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27892992 - 08/06/22 08:38 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I think you’re still stuck on the inability to record everything to argue against determinism. This isn’t really a point against it though as it is still our inability to record it all. That doesn’t make it any less deterministic though since things cause other things which combine with others to yield other things in a dizzy web, a grand order we can’t be privy to. Our inability to model it doesn’t render it any less deterministic.

I also don’t think the energy equation has a place here.

Actually there is a way to determine your post in advance of it being made. Since given your responses, word choice and tone I knew you’d still try to resist the acceptance of determinism.

We might not be able to determine everything, but that’s more a issue with scale than determinism being wrong. Like in your case I knew your response to this as soon as I finished my last post. Some people are a bit more difficult to determine than others but it’s possible. Determinism has nothing to do with our ability to measure and record these causes and effects.

I still don’t see the bone you have against it though, plenty of people accept it and don’t see the doom and gloom in it. So I’m really trying to work out why you feel so strongly against it. I can’t tell if you’re still trying to hold on to some element of free will or not.

Even fatalism can in itself from a certain light be ok as it removes the guess work from life and you can relax into abiding acceptance. At least that’s one way you can look at it.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27892999 - 08/06/22 08:43 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Ahh I see. I agree there can be a negative association with determinism but if behavior is deterministic isn't it so whether we can determine it or not?


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Offlinestarpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
    #27893063 - 08/06/22 10:10 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I think like a lot of ideas the reputation tends to color it’s interpretation


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
    #27893240 - 08/07/22 05:12 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I agree with that post, and do not mind that you have predicted my agreeance.

although, I am not concerned about recording the universe as you put forth, but more about the adventure in discovering articulation within it, and appreciating its complex trajectories.

I am also not that concerned about the accuracy of predictions, but I did want to make the point that while attempting to predict any aspect of the universe, one misses wide swathes of its progress.

As such, I would say the universe is articulated, and I would trash the term determined, since determination requires the process of attention, and the articulation of the universe is not entangled with attention in spite of some interpretations of the double slit experiment.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27893345 - 08/07/22 08:44 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

He told me his pain issues were from his martial arts days. I didn't know about any specific condition besides that. We used to PM. He was in more pain than I was at that time be he was always helpful and said to reach out any time I needed to. He told me how to use Kratom, spacing in between meals to avoid stomach upset. I liked but didn't use it after that. He told me his first name. I had forgotten it, but just checked my messages from 5 years ago. He was good guy, smart and thoughtful,


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Offlinestarpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #27893445 - 08/07/22 09:57 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Determination doesn’t require attention, all it means is actions determine others in a never ending string of “karma”. Whether you are aware of it or not doesn’t change that. It just sounds like you’re trying to alter the word into something it isn’t based on your discomfort with it.

I also disagree that we miss wide swaths of the universe in trying to predict a part of it. I think that’s missing the point. Once you see the threads tying each other the picture comes into focus. We’ve done that fairly well so far but there is much to go.

I really think you’re mangling the term “determinism” here. And I also think there is some emotional component to trying to make the universe into more than it actually is.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
    #27893559 - 08/07/22 11:46 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

starpig said:
Determination doesn’t require attention, all it means is actions determine others in a never ending string of “karma”. Whether you are aware of it or not doesn’t change that. It just sounds like you’re trying to alter the word into something it isn’t based on your discomfort with it.

I also disagree that we miss wide swaths of the universe in trying to predict a part of it. I think that’s missing the point. Once you see the threads tying each other the picture comes into focus. We’ve done that fairly well so far but there is much to go.

I really think you’re mangling the term “determinism” here. And I also think there is some emotional component to trying to make the universe into more than it actually is.



Adding Karma to this does not help! Karma is a conflation of justice with superstition.

Actions and states do work together to influence other states and actions. This we do agree on.

Nothing however is determinant, unless the articulation is fixed and locked into a scale and view port (i.e. rather than transitioning between micro and macro views with state and compositional discontinuities), so you are correct that I am reacting to the word and its usage.

Neither the current state of things or any thing nor the outcome of action or actions is decisively determinant, however, everything is articulated and behaves as according to its nature. We can describe the composition and articulation of some things at the granularity with which they are familiar to us, and we can rapidly detect and understand how they are behaving.

Here, and with words in other situations, we are attempting to describe the way things are, have been and will be.

The word determinism does not work well for me as a philosophical premise, though it may have been acceptable to many philosophers in the past. In the past the granularity with which things were analyzed had less variance.

The true part of the idea is better described as articulationism or connectedism.

Determinism and Karma lead to fatalism which is not quite the same as having your eyes open and accepting the way things are and working with them which is what we need to be able to do.

I find Fatalism leads to a dreary, disinterest, and a failure to want to participate, and that ties back to the issues of suicidal thinking. Usually it is accompanied with cynicism.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27893641 - 08/07/22 01:04 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Well to be fair, your definition of karma is Westernized with a grain of truth. It simply means cause and effect in regard to human intention - action - consequence. It's no more meant to be comprehensive than psychology or physics when it comes to such matters and being that the world was awash in mystic ideas it has held up pretty well.

Quote:

Neither the current state of things or any thing nor the outcome of action or actions is decisively determinant, however, everything is articulated and behaves as according to its nature. We can describe the composition and articulation of some things at the granularity with which they are familiar to us, and we can rapidly detect and understand how they are behaving.




I'm willing to entertain the idea that quantum indeterminacy is at work in everything but it's not known if this is a truly random variable or causative in a way we don't understand at present. Beyond that (and it's a pretty big variable) is there any logic to suggest actions aren't determinant?


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
    #27893663 - 08/07/22 01:36 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
... is there any logic to suggest actions aren't determinant?



again, when we can
1) describe the materials that are acting, and we can
2) describe the action, then we can see that they are determinant, and the logic (logos means word) holds true.

if it is just the action, and the materials are vague then missing those words there is no logic, and similarly when the materials are described, but the action is vague, there is insufficient logic.
but if you get the right granularity and a reasonable description then the words work, and the logic makes sense.
otherwise, all we can fairly say is that the things seem to be articulated or they interact causally in some way that has not yet been determined.


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