|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Tropism]
#27749134 - 04/24/22 04:57 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
|
|
this death anxiety orientation of his made me nauseous
IMO all attempts to wrest experiencing the living moment away into some kind of intellectual harangue about some essential crusade against the wrongheaded tenets of society and culture are unfortunate in my mind. Sometimes it must be done, and we get good results (for a while - eg. politics), but this is not that way.
his focus on death anxiety was, again my opinion only,( apparently,) a waste of good human consciousness in obsessive finger pointing at a marginal issue.
--------------------
_ đź§ _
|
Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
|
|
To each their own, I don't see it as much in that light. It seemed like two things intertwined inside Ice, his DA and his "crusade against the wrongheaded tenets of society", but they weren't one in the same. The latter I think was deeply rooted in his childhood trauma, so while you can call it a waste of good human consciousness, I don't think there was much decision in the matter. He grew into the shape available, and that shaped house a deep bitterness towards humanity. I would personally try and view that separate from his exploration of DA, however entwined they ended up being for him.
"his focus on death anxiety was, again my opinion only,( apparently,) a waste of good human consciousness in obsessive finger pointing at a marginal issue."
Here again I'd say it's being confused. To acknowledge DA is to live in the moment, I would suggest for many the waste is the lack of focus on it. So indeed, we are differing opinions. However as someone who was raised around religious folk, less strict than he was, the community was avidly doing everything in its power to avoid their DA, and treat it as an enemy. The pacification of anxiety through belief leads to a numbing of the moment, you miss the trip when you're staring at a carrot on the end of the stick. In this sense, I sincerely disagree with you and think Icelander is one of the rare cases where consciousness wasn't being wasted.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Tropism]
#27749388 - 04/24/22 10:30 AM (1 year, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I know an uphill battle when I see one
--------------------
_ đź§ _
|
Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
|
|
Well it's always downhill for the other guy..
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Tropism]
#27750659 - 04/25/22 01:15 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
|
|
you mean that guy with the skis?
--------------------
_ đź§ _
|
Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
|
|
Yeah, but I never got how a hippopotamus could do that
|
starpig
Stranger
Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 290
Last seen: 19 days, 22 hours
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#27891220 - 08/05/22 02:34 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: I scrolled thru a few pages of his posts and found this one from 2018 that I find interesting.
The second paragraph is a bit dark, but that's how he was. The last 2 lines make me laugh.
Quote:
Icelander said:
IMO most of humanity is lost in a cul de sac of hiding from the unpleasant truths of reality. Ernest Becker wrote a very interesting book that really delves into this (Denial of Death). So basically everyone is telling a story that on some level they know is not true. But to face that is frightening. So they tell comforting stories to each other and to keep that doubt and fear from arising they expect you to tell that very same story. If you don't you will be suspect and usually attacked or ignored. I'd guess that's why you think people suck. It's good you give new people a shot to be real before you write them off because really it's no ones fault. We get programmed to tell these stories right from the get go.
I think if you want to live a different life you'll be very limited in your social life. So if you're cynical and think most people suck you'll have to pay the price for that POV. Personally I think the price is worth it but it's still very hard, very sad and usually somewhat lonely. I pretty much think like you do. I think the human race would be better off dying out. There's so much suffering caused by our stories and it seems, in spite of what a lot of people say due to selection bias, humanity is not waking up. In all times of history there are a select few that are people you'd likely want to hang with. If you find one outside of a book consider yourself very lucky.
I didn’t know they guy but from what I read I’m not sure how accurate his view is.
Speaking personally I’ll admit I don’t know much about humanity to make any real judgment about it. I know lots of people are sure about lots of different things, whether they’re right or not…I dunno.
I can sort of agree that everyone is telling themselves a story, seems to be how living is. Even this guy seemed the same. I heard about Ernest Becker and Death Anxiety but I never found his theory very convincing. I don’t think much of what we do is to avoid dealing with unpleasant truths, that sounds very condescending and to be honest unverifiable. I know plenty who are aware of the bad stuff but are cheerful and joyous, myself included. I know death is inevitable and unstoppable and unpredictable, but it doesn’t bother me. I just don’t see the point of constantly thinking about it because there’s nothing I can do to change that fact. So why worry over what I can’t change. If it comes and I can’t stop it I’ll welcome it. If anything I’m afraid of living not death.
But I really don’t think we are motivated by anxiety of death. Especially considering how tricky words like death get when you begin to question what exactly dies, the nature of self hood, distinction, what does it mean to say one is alive or not? I know viruses tend to stretch out definition of “living”.
I’ll try to hedge my words to not speak ill of the dead but from my view it looks like he got too wrapped up in his own story.
Though if I may ask, what happened to him?
Edited by starpig (08/05/22 02:57 PM)
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27891517 - 08/05/22 05:42 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I don't remember the condition but he had a lot of neurological pain, overdosed intentionally from what I read.
Regarding DA, it's not there to squash out the cheer and joy. It's an armor which allows people to experience those things without confronting their mortality.
Also, Becker never suggested everyone is bound to live with DA. He simply states that enough people do so that it becomes a defining aspect of culture. This is reflected in the immortality or reincarnation offered through religion. The pyramids are monuments to DA. Modern equivalents might be the illusion of excess for everyone, endless entertainment, being or doing something "great", etc.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
Buster_Brown
L'une


Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 11,309
Last seen: 2 days, 4 hours
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27891588 - 08/05/22 06:13 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
In my opinion suicide is an option that one chooses, sometimes without much thought on consequences.
Given the probability that dead people have less avenues of distraction then the living one might question the rationality, but rationality isn't something that is dependable, and so we may see death happening as a solution to emotional trauma.
|
starpig
Stranger
Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 290
Last seen: 19 days, 22 hours
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said: I don't remember the condition but he had a lot of neurological pain, overdosed intentionally from what I read.
Regarding DA, it's not there to squash out the cheer and joy. It's an armor which allows people to experience those things without confronting their mortality.
Also, Becker never suggested everyone is bound to live with DA. He simply states that enough people do so that it becomes a defining aspect of culture. This is reflected in the immortality or reincarnation offered through religion. The pyramids are monuments to DA. Modern equivalents might be the illusion of excess for everyone, endless entertainment, being or doing something "great", etc.
I never saw the appeal of immortality, I found the concept to suck...a lot. Why would I want to live forever? I find death to be the "sleep" after a long life, where I drift into oblivion. To be honest it sounds peaceful, it's life I'm afraid of. Having to "do stuff" and "experience" things, but alas the survival drive is strong and most forms of suicide aren't reliable.
I don't understand what you mean about it not quashing out cheer and joy as from what I understand of Becker such emotions are only possible by trying to deny death anxiety. Confronting your mortality is a downer to a lot of people...so I'm told.
That said, I am sorry about how he died. I can't personally relate but I can understand, my mother passed a year ago from cancer and I can just remember here asking if there was a way to just end it now. I told her no there isn't and I just remember the final moments and how she suffered. I know it's not the same but it's the only comparison I've got. Breaks my heart.
Quote:
Buster_Brown said: In my opinion suicide is an option that one chooses, sometimes without much thought on consequences.
Given the probability that dead people have less avenues of distraction then the living one might question the rationality, but rationality isn't something that is dependable, and so we may see death happening as a solution to emotional trauma.
I endorse it as a solution as I think it's selfish to deny people that right to their lives just for our emotional comfort. Though I recognize I'm often alone in that opinion.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27891691 - 08/05/22 07:22 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
one of our friends recently had an assisted death, it was a huge emotional release.
at his memorial, a video was playing of the evening in preparation for it, and he danced with his wife one last time and it was very nice.
--------------------
_ đź§ _
|
starpig
Stranger
Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 290
Last seen: 19 days, 22 hours
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said: one of our friends recently had an assisted death, it was a huge emotional release.
at his memorial, a video was playing of the evening in preparation for it, and he danced with his wife one last time and it was very nice.
That's what I mean by it, giving people the choice to do it if they want. I firmly believe in a person's right to end their own life if they so choose.
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27891859 - 08/05/22 09:18 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
starpig said: I never saw the appeal of immortality, I found the concept to suck...a lot. Why would I want to live forever? I find death to be the "sleep" after a long life, where I drift into oblivion. To be honest it sounds peaceful, it's life I'm afraid of. Having to "do stuff" and "experience" things, but alas the survival drive is strong and most forms of suicide aren't reliable.
I suppose there's a part of me that could find great joy in the prospect, while at the same time I consider it an illogical idea.
Your description is imaginative, comparing death to sleep. Perhaps you meant it poetically but it does lend itself to a type of immortality. Logically death is not like anything. Logically what you are describing is something a living person might experience, just not forever. So perhaps you don't want to die and have created a version of death you are comfortable with?
Quote:
I don't understand what you mean about it not quashing out cheer and joy as from what I understand of Becker such emotions are only possible by trying to deny death anxiety. Confronting your mortality is a downer to a lot of people...so I'm told.
For it to be a downer a person must equate their mortal status with their current worth. Lending worth as a mother/father/member of a tribe that may life forever might be a powerful motivator. Not seeking immortality means death, failure of worth in the ways mentioned. So there could be powerful positive and negative emotions associated with death and staying alive. The idea of a supernatural life after death, perhaps that is taking the concept beyond it's original utility but it's what people tend to do.
Quote:
That said, I am sorry about how he died. I can't personally relate but I can understand, my mother passed a year ago from cancer and I can just remember here asking if there was a way to just end it now. I told her no there isn't and I just remember the final moments and how she suffered. I know it's not the same but it's the only comparison I've got. Breaks my heart.
I'm sorry for your loss. It's sad but when there's a terminal illness and suffering that's sad too. Ultimately it might be best to put away the scales and just remember them with some happiness and see the sadness as a biproduct of mortality and our relationship with it.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
starpig
Stranger
Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 290
Last seen: 19 days, 22 hours
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27891874 - 08/05/22 09:40 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
starpig said: I never saw the appeal of immortality, I found the concept to suck...a lot. Why would I want to live forever? I find death to be the "sleep" after a long life, where I drift into oblivion. To be honest it sounds peaceful, it's life I'm afraid of. Having to "do stuff" and "experience" things, but alas the survival drive is strong and most forms of suicide aren't reliable.
I suppose there's a part of me that could find great joy in the prospect, while at the same time I consider it an illogical idea.
Your description is imaginative, comparing death to sleep. Perhaps you meant it poetically but it does lend itself to a type of immortality. Logically death is not like anything. Logically what you are describing is something a living person might experience, just not forever. So perhaps you don't want to die and have created a version of death you are comfortable with?
Quote:
I don't understand what you mean about it not quashing out cheer and joy as from what I understand of Becker such emotions are only possible by trying to deny death anxiety. Confronting your mortality is a downer to a lot of people...so I'm told.
For it to be a downer a person must equate their mortal status with their current worth. Lending worth as a mother/father/member of a tribe that may life forever might be a powerful motivator. Not seeking immortality means death, failure of worth in the ways mentioned. So there could be powerful positive and negative emotions associated with death and staying alive. The idea of a supernatural life after death, perhaps that is taking the concept beyond it's original utility but it's what people tend to do.
Quote:
That said, I am sorry about how he died. I can't personally relate but I can understand, my mother passed a year ago from cancer and I can just remember here asking if there was a way to just end it now. I told her no there isn't and I just remember the final moments and how she suffered. I know it's not the same but it's the only comparison I've got. Breaks my heart.
I'm sorry for your loss. It's sad but when there's a terminal illness and suffering that's sad too. Ultimately it might be best to put away the scales and just remember them with some happiness and see the sadness as a biproduct of mortality and our relationship with it.
I liken it to sleep because that’s the only thing to compare it to. It’s a sleep but sort of the end of it all, oblivion, no more sensation or anything. It’s something I have longed for as I find existing a chore and not really mandatory. But survival drive is hard to overcome so I focus on making life tolerable until my time comes.
Umm the second part is not really what I’m getting at. I was mentioning that from what I gather of what the dude said joy and happiness comes from our denial of death anxiety (though I find it odd to refer to death anxiety as being in the moment as anxiety is a future oriented emotion). I’m not really getting at immortality or ascribing eternal stuff to parents. I’m also not sure equating it with being a downer has anything to doing with equating mortal status with worth. Or that worth is tied to immortality.
More like if you are always thinking about death in the future you can’t really enjoy the now, so to experience pleasure and joy you have to…not do that.
I can’t really do that with my mom as I have a lot of complex emotions around here. A mix of relief and freedom with grief and sadness and rage. I don’t know if I’ll ever truly process it all. But that’s enough about my problems.
|
starpig
Stranger
Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 290
Last seen: 19 days, 22 hours
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27891891 - 08/05/22 09:57 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
So to summarize I long for death as the true end. A finale to this song and dance we call life. No more joy, love, fear, pain, anger, desire, triumph, loss, etc. IMO existence is something I tolerate and I see no logical reason to choose life over death.
|
Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27891932 - 08/05/22 10:34 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
starpig said: Umm the second part is not really what I’m getting at. I was mentioning that from what I gather of what the dude said joy and happiness comes from our denial of death anxiety (though I find it odd to refer to death anxiety as being in the moment as anxiety is a future oriented emotion). I’m not really getting at immortality or ascribing eternal stuff to parents. I’m also not sure equating it with being a downer has anything to doing with equating mortal status with worth. Or that worth is tied to immortality.
More like if you are always thinking about death in the future you can’t really enjoy the now, so to experience pleasure and joy you have to…not do that.
I think the idea is that happiness is something that may be inhibited by thoughts of death so we find ways to deny it. If you read enough you will see that Becker wasn't stating it as a law, only as a strong tendency the general population experiences. Not right or wrong but perhaps seen as proper by society. He advocated getting past this tendency rather than embracing it. He saw is as a potential problem to be addressed.
And I understand what you mean, I was just ruminating on how such belief systems might have arisen.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
|
starpig
Stranger
Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 290
Last seen: 19 days, 22 hours
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27891987 - 08/05/22 11:22 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rahz said:
Quote:
starpig said: Umm the second part is not really what I’m getting at. I was mentioning that from what I gather of what the dude said joy and happiness comes from our denial of death anxiety (though I find it odd to refer to death anxiety as being in the moment as anxiety is a future oriented emotion). I’m not really getting at immortality or ascribing eternal stuff to parents. I’m also not sure equating it with being a downer has anything to doing with equating mortal status with worth. Or that worth is tied to immortality.
More like if you are always thinking about death in the future you can’t really enjoy the now, so to experience pleasure and joy you have to…not do that.
I think the idea is that happiness is something that may be inhibited by thoughts of death so we find ways to deny it. If you read enough you will see that Becker wasn't stating it as a law, only as a strong tendency the general population experiences. Not right or wrong but perhaps seen as proper by society. He advocated getting past this tendency rather than embracing it. He saw is as a potential problem to be addressed.
And I understand what you mean, I was just ruminating on how such belief systems might have arisen.
Ah I see, I haven't gotten that far into him. But what exactly is on the other side of it all? He says it's a problem to be addressed but what is the solution he's hoping for? What does it look like and what's the end game? I wondered that as I looked into it.
Personally I find myself holding both thoughts in tandem. The desire to stay alive and the desire for death, though I must admit the one for death is stronger. I don't see it as mutually exclusive, embracing death is the only real way to live life fully. So long as you fear it as part of reality well...
It's interesting though, I still harbor a fear of death but that fear is something I treasure. The sensation through my body as I experience mortal terror. Chill down my back, heartbeat ringing, breath catching, all of it is...enjoyable. I know I'm in danger yet I can't stop feeling happy about it. I have a hard time feeling fear so any chance at true terror is welcome.
I imagine my death coming and longing to experience that moment of expiration. The joy of release and the terror of life slipping away, the grasping to stay, and the sublime feeling of it all.
Apologies if I sound crazy, I tend to have an artistic way of viewing the world.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27892123 - 08/06/22 06:02 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
starpig said:... IMO existence is something I tolerate and I see no logical reason to choose life over death.
aside from the fact that we do not live in a world of logic although is is gratifying to see logical connections a posteriori, especially if we enjoy a future of logical guesses a priori about what might happen.
in any case the few words we use to wrap the story about what is going on, happened, or is coming, are mere pointers to the much greater reality that is experienced. What is unsaid is more full of meaning perhaps than the attitude conveyed in what is said.
In this case the matter of choosing - choosing to terminate all freedom to choose or merely exist in the flow of time - may be moot.
In my opinion the way we perceive, including what we do, how we behave, and where we go, is an instant associative reflex response of the brain that we discover as we experience life. Both sensation and perceptive reflexes are occurring at the same time as new associative memory is being created.
so, all I can say is that if this matter is natural and familiar to you, you have to trust yourself to pursue it only if it feels appropriate, the same as you might say hello to a friend in the street, or rescue a child playing in a dangerous part of the street.
there will be no particular foreknowledge except in cases of scheduled and assisted life terminations, and for that, the medical profession will be involved.
--------------------
_ đź§ _
|
starpig
Stranger
Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 290
Last seen: 19 days, 22 hours
|
|
I’m familiar with the Libet experiment but that was fraught with jumps to conclusions. Even the man himself mentioned that it didn’t really disprove the notion of free will as readiness potential didn’t always lead to an action and it depended on the type of action as well. There was also a mention of being able to veto it as well, so while it was a start it doesn’t exactly prove the notions I think you’re trying to get at.
Though I’m not getting at questions on free will.
I also question the notion of doing something because it feels natural and familiar as it doesn’t always lead to the best outcomes. I’ve seen a lot of dumb shit go down just because people said it felt right, my dad being a prime example. Worst part is there’s no talking to people once they get in that head space. They’re right you’re wrong and they’re doing this.
But I do agree that we don’t live in a logical world, at least not in the sense humans think of. Shit happens and we try to make sense of it all to feel in control but in reality existence couldn’t give any less of a shit so all we can do is adapt best we can.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
|
Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27892210 - 08/06/22 07:56 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
|
|
well I think Libet was on to something, but not what he thought exactly.
as I experience things, I seem to be on track to do something and as I keep noticing things, I am swerving around, not only avoiding unexpected obstacles but addressing entirely different issues with the momentum of previous turns, perceptions, and approaches.
That is to say, I have an elaborate series of impressions of what I am up to and where I am going and it is in continuous flux, while eventually quite a bit that needs doing gets done, and after the fact I can say I meant it to come out that way.
--------------------
_ đź§ _
|
|