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syncro
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27913289 - 08/22/22 07:58 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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A wise person may say something similar around detachment, dispassion. What is the difference between them and someone saying it in dejection? I think most any of us have had those moments - at times I have said, I am nothing, want nothing, will nothing - this from disappointment, but then the "zen" side of me takes hold of it and says, if only that were actually true.
It follows that the one saying nothing matters in a negative state is really saying they think they lost something that matters. Something matters.
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starpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: Rahz]
#27913448 - 08/22/22 10:01 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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For me it’s been a matter of nothing ever really sticking to you and nothing to really be passionate about. Whom as a kid you could see how people didn’t give good reasons for doing something. I still remember being the kid who told their parents “because I said so” isn’t a reason.
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starpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: syncro]
#27913452 - 08/22/22 10:04 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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No, they are really saying nothing matters. From what I read the Zen state isn’t that nothing matters, that’s nihilism and wrong view (I’ve had it told to me enough times to remember that).
It’s not that they lost something (not exactly) but rather they just want to feel. Imagine going through life with the same flat reaction to about anything that happens to you and at the end of it all you’d give anything to feel something.
This isn’t the Zen state though because they’d say the avoidance of feeling is to deny reality. That you don’t want to ride the rollercoaster so you don’t bother getting on.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: syncro]
#27913459 - 08/22/22 10:07 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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what will a wise person say about tubs of jamoca almond fudge.
that's what I want to know.
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starpig
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Never mind, who am I kidding. More bad faith.
Fact is I always avoid anything that involves any sort of hard work even when it comes to things I enjoy. I guess I think nothing matters because I quit as soon as it demands effort and sacrifices
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syncro
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: what will a wise person say about tubs of jamoca almond fudge.
that's what I want to know.
There is only so far dispassion can go in this world.
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syncro
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27913570 - 08/22/22 11:58 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
starpig said: No, they are really saying nothing matters. From what I read the Zen state isn’t that nothing matters, that’s nihilism and wrong view (I’ve had it told to me enough times to remember that).
It’s not that they lost something (not exactly) but rather they just want to feel. Imagine going through life with the same flat reaction to about anything that happens to you and at the end of it all you’d give anything to feel something.
This isn’t the Zen state though because they’d say the avoidance of feeling is to deny reality. That you don’t want to ride the rollercoaster so you don’t bother getting on.
Yes, that they want to feel, that everything seems flat apparently is causing a kind of suffering. That is something that matters to them, something to work with in healing perhaps.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: syncro]
#27913630 - 08/22/22 12:40 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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sure the healing, but also, the gateway to mystery and traditional wisdom.
in eastern culture buddha rupas, lotus seated figures with various transcendent adornments or nothing, are pretty much all over the place.
this subtle reminder about the middle way pervades culture.
the only guilt it inspires is the guilt of neglecting one's practice. compare with the western crucifixion - the guilt of all sins, including the sin of judgment and torturous execution.
I think of it as the bad against the good. half empty vs half full.
We still see greedy bullies rising to the top of the heap, wherever society allows undemocratic laws.
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starpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: syncro]
#27913653 - 08/22/22 12:59 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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But it’s different. The Zen state is different from the “nothing matters” flat state that nihilism leads to, though that’s about all I ever got from teachers on it.
The short answer I got is that “if nothing matters you’re doing it wrong”. Or that stuff still matters you still hurt, all that’s stuff, you just don’t suffer. Thats about all they could say without me actually experiencing it.
But trust when I say I told them everything was flat and nothing mattered the universal response was that I was doing it wrong.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27914097 - 08/22/22 06:50 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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so? sounds like a typical conversational transaction, about a beginner at meditation wanting an intermediate meditator to explain things that are above their pay grade.
If you are interested you will keep trying.
if you are not you will probably keep talking about how it is impossible.
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starpig
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I guess I just want to know. To me it just sounds like nihilism and I've experienced those flat state where nothing matters and it's all pointless. Equanimity isn't "nothing matters" nor is it a "flat state". Which doesn't explain it any better.
So apparently I'm doing something wrong.
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RJ Tubs 202



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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27914390 - 08/22/22 09:34 PM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
starpig said:
For me it’s been a matter of nothing ever really sticking to you and nothing to really be passionate about.
Are you saying that you desire to increase your amount of desire?
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27914625 - 08/23/22 05:15 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
starpig said: I guess I just want to know. To me it just sounds like nihilism and I've experienced those flat state where nothing matters and it's all pointless. Equanimity isn't "nothing matters" nor is it a "flat state". Which doesn't explain it any better.
So apparently I'm doing something wrong.
you might imagine a peaceful state mixed with vigour, sparkle, and curiosity
it's not flat, and it's not exactly a rollercoaster ride, but there is a kind of a rush to it.
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starpig
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#27914652 - 08/23/22 05:47 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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More like even having it to begin with or to be able to go for something and actually try rather than give up just because it requires some effort or sacrifice. I know it’s been my problem though that I often give up or quit as soon as it “gets real” so to speak because I’m afraid it won’t work out. It’s another defense mechanism.
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starpig
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The roller coaster is a reference to life and the ups and downs it has, and the point (to me at least it seems) is to be open to everything on it rather then simply trying to avoid the downs or cling to the ups. But I manifests in different ways.
Some like me don’t want to feel joy or happiness because then it just hurts when it’s gone or you lose it, so you stay in this eternal torment just because you’re “used to it” and it’s easy to bear. Others try to keep the high going and try to deny the negatives in life to avoid feeling pain.
In the end both are just ways to avoid getting hurt. Being able to allow yourself to feel joy is as important and being able to accept pain as part of life.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27914727 - 08/23/22 06:39 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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yes, defence mechanisms: "both are just ways to avoid getting hurt. Being able to allow yourself to feel joy is as important and being able to accept pain as part of life".
the thing is - just as we have evolved both to avoid and to seek, we have also evolved to recover from injury, and to embrace challenges.
challenge and recovery build self esteem, and are part of the middle way as well.
I am certain Icelander was hip to this as well.
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starpig
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Judging from the post history I leafed through I would doubt it, given the quote on the first page he sounded against self esteem.
That said challenge only works if you actually rise to meet it instead of just backing down as soon as things get difficult which I tend to do. I always end up quitting the minute things get hard or there’s a setback.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27914799 - 08/23/22 07:56 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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you know he set himself up in the mountains, it is a kind of a challenge, and he was proud of it. I would not discount it just because it seems obvious and lame on some level of sophistication. to him it was proof of his "rugged integrity".
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starpig
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IMO it sounds like avoiding a challenge and running away.
I mentioned similar thoughts earlier in the thread. “Rugged integrity” makes me chuckle a little bit.
I seem to recall a post mentioning how he wasn’t able to overcome his demons or something like that and retreated as a result (the unable to overcome demons part I remember but not the rest of it).
That’s generally what I think when someone runs off into seclusion, it’s not really brave or a challenge it sounds like trying to avoid or run from something.
Edited by starpig (08/23/22 08:37 AM)
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Rahz
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Re: Happy birthday, Icelander! [Re: starpig]
#27914839 - 08/23/22 08:41 AM (1 year, 5 months ago) |
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You're unsure of yourself so it makes sense that you quit when things get hard. In such a state does it make sense to start a thing to begin with?
You look to others for answers. This is natural but when it comes to Zen the answer you seek is the absence of an answer. It's not really something that can be taught to you. You must teach yourself, or rather discover it.
You must discover the absence of an answer. What a riddle! So close you are and it seems so far away.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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