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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 13 days
Re: Open Democracy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2926621 - 07/25/04 04:54 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you object to the Patriot Act and the Iraq War the last thing you would want would be a direct vote by the people. The Patriot Act would be a lot more restrictive than it is now and the answer on Iraq would have been overwhelming as well.




The only reason people would have supported these issues is becasue they have been manipulated into a state of groundless fear. Maybe there would be a way of avoiding such manipulation in a system of open democracy.


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Anonymous

Re: Open Democracy [Re: GazzBut]
    #2926643 - 07/25/04 05:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

i just don't think that the system you're proposing here would make democracy any more effective at limiting government. such a system would only contribute to the growth of government.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Open Democracy [Re: GazzBut]
    #2926785 - 07/25/04 06:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Why do you persist in the belief that if anyone disagrees with you they have been manipulated or are a tool of..whatever or are just stupid? Trust me when I tell you that there are far smarter people than you, who have thought independently and researched the positions of many others and who disagree with you vehemently.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Posts: 4,773
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Re: Open Democracy [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2927945 - 07/26/04 05:34 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Why do you persist in the belief that if anyone disagrees with you they have been manipulated or are a tool of..whatever or are just stupid?




I dont think that is the case with everything I believe but I and many others said over and over again that we didnt believe there were massive stockpiles of WMD in Iraq as was being claimed prior to the war. So on that matter I do think people have been manipulated..Sorry if you were one of those people.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
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Re: Open Democracy [Re: ]
    #2927947 - 07/26/04 05:37 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

i just don't think that the system you're proposing here would make democracy any more effective at limiting government. such a system would only contribute to the growth of government.




Can you explain why you think the system Im proposing would only contribute to the growth of government? Seeing as it takes power away from centralised government and spreads it evenly amongst the people I dont really understand why you think this.

Are you sure it's not some deep rooted distrust of any ideas you think should be labelled "collectivist"?


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: Open Democracy [Re: GazzBut]
    #2927962 - 07/26/04 05:50 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You have not described how it would take power from the federal government at all. All you have said is that some of the votes put to congress would instead(or also) be put to the people. While this may seem like de-centralizaton, you have to realize that the apparatus that carries out these votes will not have changed. I said before and I'll say again, we don't need to reallocate HOW the federal government makes decisions, we need to stop the federal government from making some decisions entirely.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Open Democracy [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2927967 - 07/26/04 05:54 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You have not described how it would take power from the federal government at all.




That because Im talking about the UK system primarily as that is where I live. Im sure somebody could work it out in terms of how your government is set up.


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Anonymous

Re: Open Democracy [Re: GazzBut]
    #2931965 - 07/27/04 09:49 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Can you explain why you think the system Im proposing would only contribute to the growth of government?

because very little of the electorate will vote for decisions that have little effect on them, even if the effect is negative. i see a system where special interest groups introduce voter initiatives and then vote to have them passed while everyone else is busy living their own lives.

i think a better system for administering democracy is a parliament-type setup with many seats.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Open Democracy [Re: ]
    #2932170 - 07/27/04 11:12 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

because very little of the electorate will vote for decisions that have little effect on them, even if the effect is negative.




As I have already said, once peoples fingers got burnt by not paying attention to what is happening I think thy would soon learn the importance of participation.

And anyway the way I see it people would not vote on all issues of government as this would not be feasible (No I dont know exactly how people would decide which issues to vote on and which not to!) however if a law got passed that hadnt been put to th vote and there was a high enough call for it that law could then be put to the vote and revoked if the voting went that way.

At the end of the day its fairly simple for you to pick holes in an idea like this continuously without actually attempting to see how these problems could be worked around.

I guess you feel a couple of votes every four years or so is all you need to feel like your opinions are being voiced in any meaningful kind of way. Hopefully as time passes people will not continue to be so easily pleased!


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Anonymous

Re: Open Democracy [Re: GazzBut]
    #2932198 - 07/27/04 11:23 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

And anyway the way I see it people would not vote on all issues of government as this would not be feasible (No I dont know exactly how people would decide which issues to vote on and which not to!) however if a law got passed that hadnt been put to th vote and there was a high enough call for it that law could then be put to the vote and revoked if the voting went that way.

i'd be very much in favor of a voter-initiated veto. allowing people to draft and enact new laws simply by getting more people to vote in favor than against them is a bad idea though. the last thing we need is more stupid laws, which is exactly what we'd get with such an arrangement.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Open Democracy [Re: ]
    #2932858 - 07/27/04 02:08 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

allowing people to draft and enact new laws simply by getting more people to vote in favor than against them is a bad idea though.




Thats what we already have in the UK. A member of parliament can put any bill he likes to the government. What has to happen for a bill to be proposed in the US?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Open Democracy [Re: ]
    #2932971 - 07/27/04 02:36 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Now a citizen veto would be a sweet idea.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Open Democracy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2933000 - 07/27/04 02:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Now a citizen veto would be a sweet idea.




Yeah thats what Ive been saying on here for the last 2 years god dammit!

I never said citizens should propose bills only vote on them, which in effect, is a citizen veto......


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Open Democracy [Re: ]
    #2933010 - 07/27/04 02:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
i'd be very much in favor of a voter-initiated veto. allowing people to draft and enact new laws simply by getting more people to vote in favor than against them is a bad idea though. the last thing we need is more stupid laws, which is exactly what we'd get with such an arrangement.



I would be in favor of all laws coming up for referendum. If they are not approved by a majority of those eligible to vote, they would become vetoed (the number of citizens eligible to vote can be easily determined by social security records - no voter registration required). This way, if people disagree with legislation they don't even have to stop their normal lives to vote against it, a non-vote would be considered a 'no' vote. Our current system favors the busy-bodies who want to force other people into things and so the average Joe has to constantly drop what he's doing to protect himself from the predations of the warden/nanny state. The current system is counter productive and divisive.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Open Democracy [Re: GazzBut]
    #2933036 - 07/27/04 02:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Now a citizen veto would be a sweet idea.




Yeah thats what Ive been saying on here for the last 2 years god dammit!

I never said citizens should propose bills only vote on them, which in effect, is a citizen veto......



Ummm, no. Citizens should not do the voting to pass or turn down a law. Only for whether to allow it to come into being after it's passed both the House and the Senate.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Open Democracy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2933042 - 07/27/04 02:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Yes!


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 13 days
Re: Open Democracy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2933053 - 07/27/04 02:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

If the people have the power of veto the people are effectively able to give the yay or nay to any law.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Open Democracy [Re: GazzBut]
    #2933079 - 07/27/04 02:53 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

What part of AFTER it's voted for by the House and Senate is unclear?

Most people are too foolish, ill-infomed and self-centered.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 13 days
Re: Open Democracy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2933178 - 07/27/04 03:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What part of AFTER it's voted for by the House and Senate is unclear?




None of its unclear. I just dont agree with you.

Your faith in a bunch of power crazed backstabbers is admirable, if a little bewildering. You do realise that Senator are normal human beings dont you? Who are just as likely to be "foolish, ill-infomed and self-centered"


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Open Democracy [Re: GazzBut]
    #2933189 - 07/27/04 03:16 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Your faith in a bunch of power crazed backstabbers is admirable, if a little bewildering.



If I had faith in them I wouldn't think a citizen veto would be a good idea.


Quote:

Who are just as likely to be "foolish, ill-infomed and self-centered"



I have little doubt that the average citizen is less informed than members of the legislature. Maybe not a great deal, but still less.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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