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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27736489 - 04/15/22 09:09 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

There is nothing wrong with something that is predetermined.. if it makes you happy..


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: Svetaketu]
    #27736664 - 04/16/22 12:57 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
Basically, I think free will is an illusion; one that is important for a properly functioning human. It's uncomfortable to consider that we are not in total control of our actions, but if you truly understand determinism and really dig into free will - it kind of implodes into a chain of cause and effect.




That's valid, I suppose. It's the advantage of the four-valued logic: I can accept
multiple things as true in their own peculiar way, even if they would normally
contradict each other.

Quote:

I enjoyed the thread, hope I didn't come across offensive :heart:




Nah, this thread is rather stupid. I mean, how does the debate on free will help
the common man from the streets? How does it pay for the bread on his table, or the
shrooms? I like to take refuge in common sense occasionally, and there is very little
of it in this thread. I like to exercise my mind, but this whole thing feels like
masturbating on logic.

When it comes to overly contemplating things not related to suffering (I have the
tendency to do so), I like the Buddha's arrow simile. It's in the Cūḷamālukya Sutta:

"It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His
friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the
man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who
wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say,
'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the
man who wounded me (...) until I know his home village, town, or city (...) until I
know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow. (...)'
The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him."


Case closed.


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Offlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 2,696
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #27736816 - 04/16/22 05:38 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

All is in flux but that which says it, but that is ineffable lest it fall in flux.

It is a hall of mirrors, but I give it to Plato for aesthetic.

'but I stoutly contend that by beauty all beautiful things become beautiful.'


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #27736864 - 04/16/22 06:46 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

How Dialethic.


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #27737236 - 04/16/22 11:27 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
That's valid, I suppose. It's the advantage of the four-valued logic: I can accept
multiple things as true in their own peculiar way, even if they would normally
contradict each other.




This has nothing to do with four valued logic. Convoluted? Perhaps. Contradictory? I don't see how.

Quote:


Quote:

I enjoyed the thread, hope I didn't come across offensive :heart:




Nah, this thread is rather stupid. I mean, how does the debate on free will help
the common man from the streets? How does it pay for the bread on his table, or the
shrooms? I like to take refuge in common sense occasionally, and there is very little
of it in this thread. I like to exercise my mind, but this whole thing feels like
masturbating on logic.





It doesn't, which is why I was trying to avoid it :willynilly:

You brought up free will as an example of four-valued logic.

You made a thread about buddhist logic; I'm just pointing out that four-valued logic is not really applicable to anything in the real world, except for confusing yourself in an apparent search for enlightenment.

I agree; case closed.


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Offlinesyncro
Registered: 01/14/15
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: Svetaketu]
    #27737300 - 04/16/22 12:42 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

It has been used in computing and can apply to such relations.

'Nuel Belnap considered the challenge of question answering by computer in 1975. Noting human fallibility, he was concerned with the case where two contradictory facts were loaded into memory, and then a query was made. "We all know about the fecundity of contradictions in two-valued logic: contradictions are never isolated, infecting as they do the whole system."[1] Belnap proposed a four-valued logic as a means of containing contradiction.[2][3]

He called the table of values A4: Its possible values are true, false, both (true and false), and neither (true nor false). Belnap's logic is designed to cope with multiple information sources such that if only true is found then true is assigned, if only false is found then false is assigned, if some sources say true and others say false then both is assigned, and if no information is given by any information source then neither is assigned.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-valued_logic


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: syncro]
    #27737346 - 04/16/22 01:33 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Right, but this can't be carried over to propositions or reasoning in daily life.

This is about compiling and understanding potentially flawed information; for any proposition the answer is still either true or false.

I'm looking for a real example of four-valued logic in use: like I have a jar of jelly beans. The number of beans is either odd or even - an example of the excluded middle principle. To suggest it could be both or neither is on it face, ridiculous.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: Svetaketu]
    #27737360 - 04/16/22 01:52 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

On the same page I quoted, it is also used in an electronics standard for digital circuitry. I never knew any of this.

This is also listed under applications. 'Split bit proposed gate
Creation of carbon nanotubes for logical gates has used carbon nanotube field-effect transistors (CNFETs). An anticipated demand for data storage in the Internet of Things (IoT) provides a motivation. A proposal has been made for 32 nm process application using a split bit-gate: "By using CNFET technology in 32 nm node by the proposed SQI gate, two split bit-lines QSRAM architectures have been suggested to address the issue of increasing demand for storage capacity in IoT/IoVT applications. Peripheral circuits such as a novel quaternary to binary decoder for QSRAM have been offered."'


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: Svetaketu]
    #27737416 - 04/16/22 02:30 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

for a world with such logically contradictory states of affairs to be possible, it would need to be a time traveling jar of jelly beans.  time travel is an escape from the here and now and how.  if the past, future, and present all exist at once, then the jar of jelly beans could exist with 365 jelly beans, and also 364 jelly beans, after you just ate one, and with no jelly beans, after you had eaten them all.


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27737456 - 04/16/22 02:58 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

syncro said:
On the same page I quoted, it is also used in an electronics standard for digital circuitry. I never knew any of this.






Agreed, I didn't know any of that and it is interesting.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
for a world with such logically contradictory states of affairs to be possible, it would need to be a time traveling jar of jelly beans.  time travel is an escape from the here and now and how.  if the past, future, and present all exist at once, then the jar of jelly beans could exist with 365 jelly beans, and also 364 jelly beans, after you just ate one, and with no jelly beans, after you had eaten them all.




:willynilly:

Once the jelly beans break the speed of light, anything is possible.

At that point they probably are simultaneously both jelly beans and not-jelly beans :wizard:


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: Svetaketu]
    #27737609 - 04/16/22 05:31 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

So freewill exists because of our perception.

Because of negative vs positive emotions.. people will likely seek out positive experiences..

That searching is free.. free to choose a better life.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #27737619 - 04/16/22 05:40 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Jesus spoke like a Buddhist.

in the Gospel of John, in Jesus and the woman taken in adultery,  7:53-8:1–11, those who were plotting against Jesus were trying to trap Him and discredit Him, either before the crowd of believers or their Roman overlords. a  woman is dragged before a crowd and publicly accused of adultery, and if Jesus had agreed that the woman should be stoned or put to death He made himself an instant enemy of the occupying Roman army, as they forbade capital punishment. if He disagreed and offended the opinion that the woman should not be stoned then He made himself an enemy of Mosaic law.  it was damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Jesus creates a third option, He neither agreed nor disagreed that the woman should be stoned or put to death. but instead said, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”

the crowd disperses, and Jesus' answer turns the trap that they were trying to catch him with upon themselves, a fourth outcome.  Jesus did not excuse the woman's sin, but also did not condemn her for it.  the Lord offers His forgiveness to the woman, and challenges her to go and sin no more.  knowing that we have free will, when we confront sin in our lives, God freely chooses through Christ not to condemn us, but to challenge us to go and sin no more.


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: Svetaketu]
    #27738125 - 04/17/22 05:04 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
I'm just pointing out that four-valued logic is not really applicable to anything in the real world.




What about this: A traffic light can be red, green, both (when it's broken) and
neither (when it's yellow).

And meaningless statements (neither true nor false) are everywhere.


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InvisibleNillion
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #27738169 - 04/17/22 05:54 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
Jesus spoke like a Buddhist.




Hellenic Buddhism was introduced to Judea a couple centuries before Jesus and was widespread in Egypt at the time when it is said he resided there. There is no coincidence there.

The story you mention is not in the early texts but was added later.
It is allegorical reference to Jesus being born to a mother but not being the son of her husband, which according to the law of Judea meant that his pregnant mother was to be stoned to death, for that was the penalty having had a child that was not of her husband.

Merely having had Jesus, who was not of Josef, was proof under Judean law that she had committed adultery and could be stoned to death, thus Jesus was according to the law, proof of his mother's crime and should not have been born. In some versions it was this law that was used to condemn him to death, by stoning, but only after treating Lazarus and frightening the locals who then found out who his mother was.

However the version I know is not canonical and I hesitate to share it because I don't want to interfere with belief systems.

It does have Jesus learning Alexandrian Buddhism though.
Just saying.


Edited by Nillion (04/17/22 06:00 AM)


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #27738348 - 04/17/22 07:54 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
And meaningless statements (neither true nor false) are everywhere.




My prime example being the statement: "This sentence is wrong". There is also
the bodhicitta issue. But there are others. What about the statement "23QRTZYC5"?
It is neither true nor wrong, it is meaningless. There obviously exists an
infinite number of this type. But there are also statements which are
grammatically correct, yet make no sense. Noam Chomsky brought up the famous
proposition: "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously." That is wrong
on so many levels that it becomes meaningless. Then there are tautologies:
"A is A". It is too obviously true, it amkes no sense. Finally, there is the statement:
"Caesar is a prime number." Some would argue that this is wrong, plain and easy.
The philosopher Rudolf Carnap, however, argued that it is meaningless. The assertion
"A is a prime number" is only meaningful if A is a number, at the very least.


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #27738553 - 04/17/22 10:43 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
What about this: A traffic light can be red, green, both (when it's broken) and
neither (when it's yellow).

And meaningless statements (neither true nor false) are everywhere.




Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
My prime example being the statement: "This sentence is wrong". There is also
the bodhicitta issue. But there are others. What about the statement "23QRTZYC5"?
It is neither true nor wrong, it is meaningless. There obviously exists an
infinite number of this type. But there are also statements which are
grammatically correct, yet make no sense. Noam Chomsky brought up the famous
proposition: "Colourless green ideas sleep furiously." That is wrong
on so many levels that it becomes meaningless. Then there are tautologies:
"A is A". It is too obviously true, it amkes no sense. Finally, there is the statement:
"Caesar is a prime number." Some would argue that this is wrong, plain and easy.
The philosopher Rudolf Carnap, however, argued that it is meaningless. The assertion
"A is a prime number" is only meaningful if A is a number, at the very least.




I guess I don't consider "meaningless" to be one of the options. It implies something is defunct with the structure of the proposition or the machinery.

It's easy to make something meaningless, but what's the point? Seems like a good way to deliberately avoid a difficult question like, is nirvana green? If you answer yes or no, more questions are sure to follow. If you instead befuddle the questioner, they stop prying.

We could make a program/machine that responds to a meaningless value in a specific way, but this doesn't violate logic, we made it that way; we could make it a million different ways if we wanted to, because we are making up the rules.

My main point is that the law of excluded middle is never violated; for example with the stoplight, you need to make a proposition about it to apply logic to.

Like if I propose the light is green. It either is or isn't. Even if it's green and red, it's still green (in part) it's not also not-green; it's just also red.

Quote:

"Colourless green ideas sleep furiously."



on another note, I like this. My brain wants to interpret it; green tends to represent good or go, so colourless green would mean something good; unrelated to the color. Therefore I take it to mean "good ideas sleep furiously" which has an interesting point to it.


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Registered: 09/25/21
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: Svetaketu]
    #27738989 - 04/17/22 04:25 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
Like if I propose the light is green. It either is or isn't. Even if it's green and red, it's still green (in part) it's not also not-green; it's just also red.




I think you still don't get the problem. I don't deny that binary logic is valid,
and that you can apply it to traffic lights. Hell, I wouldn't even be able to
write this post without it, since my computer depends on it.

All I'm saying is that the four-valued logic is also valid, both mathematically
and philosophically, and that it is useful in describing the universe. Since
there are some things where the truth depends on the perspective, and these
things are both true and false.

Using four-valued logic, I can be a solipsist and not be a solipsist at the
same time. I am a solipsist in the sense that every object in the universe
which I can discern is part of my own consciousness. I am not a solipsist,
because I assume that this is so for everyone. That is not possible in binary
logic.


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Registered: 09/25/21
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #27739115 - 04/17/22 05:45 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
Since there are some things where the truth depends on the perspective, and these
things are both true and false.




More precisely, it is valid to consider them true and false. You have to switch
your logic to four-valued logic to do this. There is nothing both true and false
if you are thinking in binary logic. In that case, the principle of the excluded
middle is never violated. It is a little like the chicken and egg problem. Which
came first?

As the saying by Abraham Maslow goes: "If all you have is a hammer, everything
looks like a nail."


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #27739734 - 04/18/22 06:03 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

AnattaAtman said:
Your subjective experience dissolves, like a drop returning to the ocean.




There is actually a second way of entering Nirvana, where you keep existing. It
is called: Doing it the jhana way. In that case, you meditate, and drop into it.
You can exist forever in this state, it just gets more and more pleasant the
deeper you go into meditation. It is only at the very bottom - after a long, long
period of time - that your consciousness slowly dissolves.


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OfflineAnattaAtman
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Registered: 09/25/21
Posts: 377
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Re: Buddhist Epistemology [Re: AnattaAtman]
    #27739848 - 04/18/22 08:14 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Anyway, I'll be on vacation for the next couple of weeks, and will not have
access to the internet. So we have to end the debate, or continue later.


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