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Offlinegnrm23
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athanasian creed
    #2772103 - 06/07/04 05:09 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

one of the "big three" creedal statements of the christian faith...
first time i ever heard it actually used in a (lutheran) worship service... it was trinity sunday, & this was chosen because of its ummmmm excruciating (if you'll pardon the pun, heh) explication of the nature of the triune god...
wowzers...


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: gnrm23]
    #2772149 - 06/07/04 05:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

explain this a bit. I dont quite understand what you are saying.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2772178 - 06/07/04 05:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

What part of "wowzers" are you struggling with?


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: Swami]
    #2772391 - 06/07/04 06:46 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah... i guess i didnt understand the amazement... A whole feeling on the subject didnt really get me movin..


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: Swami]
    #2772400 - 06/07/04 06:50 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
What part of "wowzers" are you struggling with?



Honestly thats the funniest thing Ive ever heard you say.
Maybe because wowzers is in of itself a funny word. Or maybe picturing you saying the word wowzers is amusing me.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2773990 - 06/08/04 08:37 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: gnrm23]
    #2775233 - 06/08/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

http://magdalene.wise1.com/mass.html

An interesting and (for me) important interpretation of Holy Spirit as God's 'Wisdom' which is the Feminine aspect of the Godhead, and so, God the Mother. Father, Mother and Son - perhaps too close to Osirus-Re, Isis and Horus -for Tertullian's formula. This formula also reflects the Kabbalistic Supernal Father and Supernal Mother who descend from the Crown (The One), and which form the Supernal Triad [of God] at the top of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life.


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Re: athanasian creed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2776959 - 06/09/04 05:01 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

man you always get WAY deep and knowledgeble into things and I am like " um wtF!!"

oh well.. I think wisdom IS a feminine aspect...so is the moon.. and umm..women.....errr to many :beer:... damn me and my bad habits


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2777125 - 06/09/04 07:42 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, well, it's kinda like scuba diving - being 'deep,' that is. You start out with everyone and the deeper you go, fewer and fewer people follow 'cause it begins to get dark, and unfamiliar, and downright scary b'cause one seems to be getting closer to the possibility of dying when at great depth. It can be really lonely at the 'bottom.'  :smile:  And hey...I've had a Saint Pauli Girl and a 10 oz. glass of Merlot tonight.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: gnrm23]
    #2777148 - 06/09/04 07:59 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

wisdom is "sophia"
philos sophia is love of wisdom, yes/no ?

~

ya, the straight-up trinitarianism of the dominant strain of christianity often doesn't leave a mystical space for the femimine/yin/earthmother/goddess side of things...

~

hey, markos --- a few years ago a letter to "the lutheran" magazine sorta complained about a gathering of lutheran women who shared a "eucharistic meal" of honey & milk (i think; it was most assuredly not the wine and bread of "tradtional" communion, hehheh) - me, i figured it was the goddess-force (if that's not an oxymoron :wink: ...) tryin' to break outa the "virgin" mold we have forced her into these last 2000 years or so...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: gnrm23]
    #2779565 - 06/09/04 11:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I've been reading different books on Mary Magdalene lately, and that minimalized character, referred to as a prostitute for centuries, and retracted by the RC Church fairly recently, is viewed in several quarters as an 'initiatrix,' or a 'non-traditional wife, ' or a 'consort' of Jesus. Certain things become noticed like non-married men not being allowed to teach in the synagogue as Jesus did; the heretical Gospel of Mary Magdalene which speaks of Jesus kissing her on the mouth [these things disturbed me when I was avidly celibate, but since I've long ago integrated sexuality into my life, and no longer view it as a demonic force to be rejected, the sacrality of it makes perfect sense - particularly from a Jewish point of view]. The mysterious Black Madonnas may not refer to the Virgin [so-called] Mary, but to the Magdalene and a child by Jesus, which though I do not subscribe to a blood-line of Jesus, there have been many that have.

The Magdalene may have been Ethiopian [burnt-faces], a priestess of Isis even, following Jesus and supporting the disciples "from her own substance," i.e., a woman of means. Some have pointed out the whole annointing the feet of Jesus with spiknard - an expensive perfume from India used in Tantric rites. Some of these things are out there, but the one-time "Apostle to the Apostles," who was first to experience the Resurrected Christ - a woman - plus the burden of rejected gospels which recognized an Osirus-Isis parallel in the Jesus-Mary couple may show more clearly the horribly misogynistic, patriarchal or even a pathological homosexual agenda to the Church that Constantine founded. The egalitarian acceptance of females, even as priests were wiped out early on in the adoption of Hebrew segregationist attitudes toward women.

The whole structure might be a terrible, terrible falsehood. As J.S. Spong entitled a book 'Christianity Must Change or Die,' I am working out my own theology. Too bad my Church will have only one member - me - unless m'Lady joins me in a spiritual recapitulation of this Divine Sun-Moon, Compassion-Wisdom, Christ-Sophia Union.
The more I read, the more I begin to feel like Neo when Morpheus showed him the 'awakened' perception of the Matrix.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2779713 - 06/10/04 12:59 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I dont see how any of this has to do with the Trinity.

This simply covers interactions between different groups and different cultural significances and historical references.

Sounds to me just like mytho's. Covering the historical context.

The trinity to me seems more like an explanation for something else. But i dont really understand what the point is anyway...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2780362 - 06/10/04 07:57 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Tertullian's doctrine of the trinity was made of 3 Names of GOD that he joined to make 'one substance in three presons' [una substantia, tres personas]. It is an alien idea to Hebrews, whereas the idea of the feminine side of GOD is not an alien element. JHVH had His 'Asherah,' in early temple Judaism, which was not a goddess, but the feminine aspect of GOD. Patriarchal thinking extinguished this. Even Wisdom in the Jewish tradition was masculinized. This does not change the fact that the Name Elohim - the Name of GOD in Genesis, has both a plural and a feminine meaning.

Most GOD myths (for that is all we have are our human universal formulations of Deity - mythos) have a GOD[DESS] duality which derives from the ONE, which transcends duality.

The Magdalene is considered to be an embodiment of GOD's Wisdom - a feminine archetype which is more 'fleshed out' than the limited archetype of 'perpetual virginity' which is a rather static and sterile notion deriving from the 'virgin goddesses' of Greek antiquity. A more complete archetype embodies many aspects of the 'coincidence of opposites' - virgin-whore, virgin-mother, puer-senex [old-young], dying-rising [the Mother of Jesus was 'assumed' bodily into heaven according to a 1950 doctrine of the RC Church, yet, this did NOT make the Trinity into a Quaternity, and did NOT admit of a feminine element in the Godhead. No. Males have created their idea of GOD in their own image.

If Jesus is a manifestation of GOD, His Aramaic Name for GOD may have been 'Abwoon' - Cosmic Birther or Cosmic Mother-Father, not the Hebrew Abba or 'Daddy.' Insofar as Jesus embodied the 'feminine' traits of Mercy, Compassion, Loving Kindness in His male form, the Magdalene can be seen to have embodied Wisdom - worldly and heavenly - in a feminine form.

Unless one goes exclusively by the Johannine idea that Jesus was 'GOD clothed in flesh,' instead of the Synoptic versions that Jesus was 'GOD's Annointed [Christed] One,' one realizes that historical persons have become the 'carriers' of these Divine qualities, whether they were in themselves or because humans projected our own inner Divine image and likeness onto them. We can, in that case, withdraw our projections (which means to take these people off the pedestals we put them on) and realize those same divine qualities in the depths of our our beings. THIS is the version of the Christianity that LOST to the dominant version we've had for two millennia - the one that has caused crusades, witch hunts, the Inquisition, burnings at the stake of millions of live human beings over hundreds of years, the horrible oppression of women, exile or execution for heresy [so-called 'wrong view'], control over procreation/termination on pain of death, massacres ("Kill them all, GOD will know His own"), bombings of abortion clinics, murder of gynecologists, KKK, anti-Semitism and its pogroms, purges and exterminations, and virtually all heinous crimes against humanity for which people found a rationale in the scriptures that were selected to become the canonical Bible.

GOD is not an eternal bearded guy-in-the-sky. Neither is GOD that plus a 33 year old glow-in-the-dark Jewish carpenter with a white dove hovering over their heads. Unfortunately, to 'grok' the NT, the average 'Christian' would need to understand Plato's doctrine of 'The Realm of Pure Ideas [Archetypes]' and how everything on Earth is a materialization of these Pure Ideas - especially Jesus the Christ and all the surrounding 'players' in the drama of the Divine Mythos. Since most people have absolutely no clue as to what, how, where the scriptures derived, civilization simply has a childish magical veneer of images that they are ready to kill for.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2780448 - 06/10/04 09:04 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

especially Jesus the Christ and all the surrounding 'players' in the drama of the Divine Mythos. Since most people have absolutely no clue as to what, how, where the scriptures derived, civilization simply has a childish magical veneer of images that they are ready to kill for.




So we are talking a lot in part about the evolution of "western?" society?

Would you link this to the power of a few organizations? It seemed that especially in greece, controlling the flow of the mythos - who would or would not see it, as they deemed acceptable, played in part a large roll in forming the mass mind.

If this is simply the formulation or abstraction of our own experience, or human qualities... would it be prudent to assume that we could see a shift in the way people think... as we stop giving credit to "the divine" and realize the truth behind the situation?

With all the information we have now, what purpose does "religion" serve?

Does it simply mean being "human"?

Are you saying that over all these years we have simply manifested religion as an embodiment of that which we find the utmost divine... which we must strive for as human beings? Like a lot of humans tendency to "beat around the bush" we have created religion to try and tell us what to do, what to believe about the people written about in scripture?

Were these thousands of years meant to justify a rather unfounded belief in something so vague?

Is this a justification for what is right? By doing what is wrong... trying to establish the right in the minds of the masses?

This is why i "dropped out" of religion, taking what i thought what other people said to be true. Because as i noticed, they left out a lot of important details. Seeing years of war and blooshed at the formation of a world distrout with termoil... it seemed like the best idea to ditch my ideas about religion... realizing them as a set of dogmatic practices which only seem to try and form a way of living out of a way of not knowing.

I choose to live the way i do now because of what i know, what i dont know continually shapes my experience. What truths i hold to be self evident guide me as i know how to act, not as an abstraction of great qualities in characters, but the real implication of my actions as a concious, living, human being.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2781223 - 06/10/04 01:08 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Great questions, all, and I profess not to hold 'the' definitive answers, but I'll give you MY take. Elaine Pagels who wrote The Gnostic Gospels, and The Gnostic Paul, illustrated in the latter book how the very same words of Paul were interpreted by an inner-directed, introverted or Gnostic mind versus the outer-directed, extroverted minds that established the conventional Christian interpretations. Yes, control of the masses via 'Apostolic Succession' and who had the power to control the Sacraments - without which one would be damned to hell was the biggest control situation this world has ever known. The rejected Gospel of Thomas about which the movie 'Stigmata' was made, basically affirms the immanence and omnipresence of GOD ("...lift a stone and I AM there, cleave a piece of wood and I AM there...") and eliminates the need for the Church, its priests, its Sacraments and its CONTROL.

I am Panentheistic (as opposed to Pantheistic), and believe that GOD suffuses space-time, yet is not identical with space-time. Despite the material universe issuing from GOD, and therefore being what GOD 'voided' from His/Her Infinite Essence, I do not recognize that the universe is Deity in any sense. This is what materialists assume unconsciously as their deity based on their devotion and value of materiality. The Divine dwells in a "superabundant" [Mircea Eliade] degree in certain circumstances, one of which is the Illuminated Self-Consciousness - the Consciousness that knows that it knows, and further, knows that it is body, mind and 'spirit' [spirit meaning the Divine Image and Likeness of GOD - the Microcosmic reflection of Macrocosmic Deity. "Know ye not that ye are gods?"]

Religion. Having experienced mystical states of consciousness - the Illumination mentioned above - one then decides to 'Communicate' this experience of Unity, transformed down into thoughts, feelings and behaviors which would follow the Truth as experienced in mystical consciousness. If one therefore experiences Ultimate Reality as an Infinite expanse of unbearable Compassion and perhaps Light, one would then communicate and somehow 'loosely' codify the experience as "GOD is love," and therefore one 'ought' to actively demonstrate love in human interactions in order to manifest/teach the Truth that GOD is love. The attending feeling states of altruism, empathy, unconditional positive regard for others, etc. is a correlate of the cognitive aspect, GOD is love, and the behaviors are of a helping/nurturing/healing/teaching type vs. a hurting/selfish/ungiving type. Written or oral 'codification' of the realizations that descend from the Religious Experience is what religion is.

Atrocities committed in the name of GOD are by wolves in sheep's clothing. KKK members believe that they are doing GOD's work in a 'white, fraternal Christian organization,' yet they teach hatred. They use Christian symbols: a drop of Christ's blood on an encircled equilateral cross; an 'illuminated' wooden cross. The peaked hoods are reminiscent of the black conical hoods of the medieval Inquisitor. I used to have a Nazi medal which was a swastika on a cross - given to mothers for raising up young Nazis (I gave it to an OT professor). None of these people are Christians.

I am into symbols, not doctrines. Symbols are far more - they elicit feelings and thoughts and convey much more about transcendental phenomenon than any intellectual doctrine can. The reduction of the Experience of GOD into linear, linguistic formulas can only be dead lies in comparison to the Living Truth.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (06/10/04 07:39 PM)


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2781274 - 06/10/04 01:21 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I appreciate your personal insight into this. As i have followed you for quite some time on this board, i have become interested in your take on the matter of religion.

I wish more people, especially around the parts where i lived, realized that all the things they do are in many cases far from being compassionate, caring, and directed to helping others and the world all together.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2782789 - 06/10/04 08:01 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Compassion characterizes the fully human, which is to say, the spiritual dimension which includes and transcends the mammalian mind-body dimensions. Most people are human mammals as far as I can tell, not human beings - another often misapplied appelation of bipedal hominids who happen to use spoken and written language, and tools, but who are motivated almost exclusively by biological and social determinants of behavior - survival, sex, status - not free will.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2784010 - 06/11/04 08:24 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

oh ya...

spirit is deeper than doctrine...
symbol is deeper than creed...
compassion (caritas; charity; karuna; lovingkindness; agape...) lived is deeper than words uttered...
& mere myth is a deeper truth than mere fact...

~
within mans' depths dwelleth the truth...

~
~
~


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: athanasian creed [Re: gnrm23]
    #2784632 - 06/11/04 01:21 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

gnrm23 -

Thanks for being Aksobhya's 'Wisdom of the Great Mirror!' Maybe I should take lessons from you in parsimony, but then, psychedelic visions have imprinted me with a liking for filigree and rococo ["you sleazy weazle"], and I'd have to compress even my tag into 'Marknos,' or 'Marktic,' you know, something less bombastic.


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Re: athanasian creed [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2785082 - 06/11/04 03:47 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting stuff Markos - but what your saying seems to boil down to the stuff my bro Chris and my lil sis Liz would say of God ect - and they go to some kind of 'normal' church .
Catholic intsitutonalised christianity can be a far removed thing to an energetic lil church in an unnoficial building .

What I have found over and over about truth seeking is that being calm and not deceiving leads one flowingly into truth .

Peace out dudes - and dont worry, your philosophies may change but ultimate truth stays the same .


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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