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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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How did he do it?
    #2770402 - 06/06/04 10:21 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I know there's a lot of reagan threads already on this board, but here's a more focused question. To those who believe that Reagan specifically played a large role in the fall of communism, what was it exactly that he did? Funding proxy wars and creating a modern mccarthyist attitude?

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Tao]
    #2770507 - 06/06/04 11:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I think the arms race / cold war was a financial burden to both countries, and certainly helped to bring about the collapse.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineTao
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2770559 - 06/06/04 11:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

of course, the arms race, i meant to include that.

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Tao]
    #2770678 - 06/07/04 12:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I want to start a small communist community in the middle of wyoming or one of those kinds of states. That'd rule.


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: unbeliever]
    #2770742 - 06/07/04 01:54 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
I want to start a small communist community in the middle of wyoming or one of those kinds of states. That'd rule.




I would be interested to know how many communists that we have posting on this board. I am not red baiting, just interested.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Tao]
    #2771022 - 06/07/04 08:16 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

He speeded up the collapse by resisting the Soviets and with stuff like the star wars program. Russia tried to compete, but its economy collapsed because of that. Arms race + political resistance.

Reagan supported Poland staunchly - the Soviets were going to crush the Solidarnosc movement but he supported it. Without that support, Communism would have lingered on for a long while longer. No, he didn't take out his shining sword of freedom and cut communism down. Yes, he was an abnormally large straw which broke that camel's back

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Tao]
    #2771026 - 06/07/04 08:17 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

> To those who believe that Reagan specifically played a large role in the fall of communism, what was it exactly that he did?

I was still in high school during the reagan years... I remember my world history teacher talking about Reagan claiming that his policies would end soviet communism. He claimed that Reagan was in a spending war with the soviets... that the soviet mindset could not allow the US to have more weapons... and that the massive spending both sides were doing would force one side or the other to run out of money... which, if the soviets ran out first, would end communism. My parents laughed at the idea that communism was on its way out when I told them about this... a few years later the berlin wall came down.

> I would be interested to know how many communists that we have posting on this board.

Were energy free, I would probably be a communist... the theory behind communism is sound, but corruption and greed will always doom it unless there is so much 'stuff' that everybody can have anything they want. Star Trek is a good example of working communism, in a fictional setting.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Tao]
    #2771300 - 06/07/04 10:37 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

in poker, it's called a bluff....you raise your opponent into submission.

luckily they folded first.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Tao]
    #2771316 - 06/07/04 10:42 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The russians were never anywhere near the US in terms of the arms race since way back in the 50's. The idea that somehow Reagan made them spend more is bollocks.

The "arms race" was always simply a good way of transferring money from the poor to the rich - just like "the war on drugs" or "the war on terror" is today.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (06/07/04 10:52 AM)

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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Tao]
    #2771371 - 06/07/04 11:01 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

When a country such as the former USSR must purchase it's food( the wheat shipments,etc) from it's purported enemy how long did they have with ANY fool in office? From the first time we sold such a basic necessity as food due to ther own inability to fill the demand of their own country, we had "won" the contest(?)Reagan was lucky enough to be in place when the burden of purchasing basic foodstuff,the arms race, the afghanistan war(WARNING SIGN!),and civil unrest reached a point which all it took was a nudge and down she fell.
We should really have payed closer attention to the fall of the soviet empire,it could become VERY relevant in our own future.
WR:wexican:


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To old for this place

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2771461 - 06/07/04 11:29 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

> The "arms race" was always simply a good way of transferring money from the poor to the rich

I disagree.  A lot of money went into R&D and manufacturing during the cold war... Start with the super bomb (fusion bombs, early 50's) and progress through the space race/moon missions through the massive spending and buildup during the Reagan years...

The arms race may have helped line a lot of rich pockets, and it may have emptied futher a lot of poor pockets, but to claim that it was simply a way to play at R obin Hood, and nothing more, is stretching...  :smile:


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Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Seuss]
    #2771480 - 06/07/04 11:35 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
... the theory behind communism is sound



How do you figure? Everywhere it has been tried (other than in an agrarian, close knit community) it has been a complete failure. Communism will not work in a large modern society where there is a highly specialized division of labor and vast numbers of people who do not know each other. People respond to incentives, communism so severly distorts incentives that it leads to chronic shortages and misallocation of resources. Tell me, how hard will the average man work if it will bring him no greater rewards than the shiftless who try to live off the system? Do you realize that "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" translates in real life to, "from each according to his production, to each according to his consumption" ?

Quote:

Star Trek is a good example of working communism, in a fictional setting.



Star Trek is fiction, it is an example that working communism IS fiction. Nothing more can be inferred from it.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2771569 - 06/07/04 11:57 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Quote:

The russians were never anywhere near the US in terms of the arms race since way back in the 50's. The idea that somehow Reagan made them spend more is bollocks.




Incorrect. The Soviets were ahead of the US in rocket (hence missile) technology right up until the time they dropped out of the race to the moon. There are several excellent histories of the space programs of both powers that confirm this.

As for Reagan making them spend more, the Soviets themselves admit this was the case. Some excerpts (boldface by pinky) from an excellent article at: http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110005181

"That strategy rested on six pillars: support internal disruption in Soviet satellites, especially Poland; dry up sources of hard currency; overload the Soviet economy with a technology-based arms race; slow the flow of Western technology to Moscow; raise the cost of the wars it was fighting; and demoralize the Soviets by generating pressure for change."

"On June 7, 1982, the day before Reagan gave his 'ash heap' speech at Westminster Abbey, he met alone with the pope in the Vatican. Richard Allen, Reagan's first national security adviser, says the two men 'agreed to undertake a clandestine campaign to hasten the dissolution of the communist empire.' Until it was legalized in 1989, Poland's Solidarity union was kept alive by the U.S. and the Vatican. Solidarity leader Lech Walesa, who later became president of free Poland, has said that 'we owe our freedom to their unstinting efforts.' "

"A new book by former Air Force secretary Thomas Reed reveals that the Reagan administration allowed a Soviet agent to steal gas-pipeline software that had been secretly designed to go haywire on a catastrophic scale. The ruse led to a June 1982 explosion in the Siberian wilderness that Mr. Reed says was 'the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space.' It crippled the Soviet's secret techno-piracy operation because they could longer be sure if what they were buying or stealing was similarly booby-trapped. They had reason to worry: Contrived computer chips found their way into Soviet military equipment, flawed turbines were installed on a gas pipeline, and defective plans disrupted chemical plants and tractor factories."

"Reagan's arms buildup also unhinged the Kremlin. His clarion call for a missile-based defense system against nuclear weapons in 1983 helped convince the Politburo to select Mikhail Gorbachev as a less hard-line Soviet leader in 1985. 'Reagan's SDI was a very successful blackmail,' says Gennady Gerasimov, the Soviet Foreign Ministry's top spokesman during the 1980s. 'The Soviet economy couldn't endure such competition.' Mr. Gorbachev himself agrees the U.S. exhausted his country economically and acknowledges Reagan's place in history. 'Who knows what would have happened if he wasn't there?' he told the History Channel in 2002."

pinky


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OfflineTao
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Evolving]
    #2771585 - 06/07/04 12:00 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

you have to admit, that food synthesizer thingy would help out a lot :wink:


My point of this thread (probably transparent) is that why is it so respectable that he built more and more threatening weapons until the threatened country was starving its own people trying to keep up and then collapsed? And of course, how is funding non-democratic sides of proxy wars respectable?  And the form of McCarthysim he used, simplistically calling Russia the 'evil empire' (now who does that remind me of?:smirk:) rather than formally debate the failings of communism (as evolving eloquently did there) inspiring zealous patriotism and hatred of other countries. 

but to evolving's point, i would add that IMO democratic (not revolutionary) socialism has been pretty successful in western Europe and after china's pragmatist coup, china's percentage GDP growth has been the highest in the world over the past decade(if memory serves correctly).  its not communism, but it has public education, healthcare and welfare safety nets (though it still fails in civil liberties and other human rights).  As some chinese have said, socialism is still in its relatively early stages and is adapting to problems it encounters just as capitalism has.

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Phred]
    #2771617 - 06/07/04 12:09 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Fantastic read. Thank you.


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Tastes just like chicken

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Evolving]
    #2771659 - 06/07/04 12:26 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
... the theory behind communism is sound



How do you figure?  Everywhere it has been tried (other than in an agrarian, close knit community) it has been a complete failure.





You took my statement out of context (do you work for Fox news by chance? :grin:)  The entire thing reads:

Quote:


the theory behind communism is sound, but corruption and greed will always doom it unless there is so much 'stuff' that everybody can have anything they want.





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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Seuss]
    #2771704 - 06/07/04 12:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Star Trek is a good example of working communism, in a fictional setting.



Is it? Seems good enough I guess for everyone with the fun job of living equally on a space ship. What about those living equally in a factory making food synthesizers?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Seuss]
    #2771743 - 06/07/04 01:02 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

This reminds me of something you might find in the S&P forum like... The theory behind human levitation is sound, but the inherent incapability of the human body and insufficient belief in it will always doom it.

So, what is sound about the theory of communism?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineTao
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2771769 - 06/07/04 01:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Star Trek is a good example of working communism, in a fictional setting.



Is it?  Seems good enough I guess for everyone with the fun job of living equally on a space ship.  What about those living equally in a factory making food synthesizers?





well you see, there are food synthesizer synthesizers...:grin:

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Tao]
    #2771818 - 06/07/04 01:29 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

That Star Trek stuff is more than amusing. What about the holograph stuff in the later series? That would really appeal to us around here. No need for mushies anymore when you can create your own reality!

I would be all for communism is you gave me a food/beer synthesizer and and one of those vitural reality chambers. I would spend all my time in there. I would by laying all the hot chicks, fighting and winning all the great battles, and climbing Mount Everest whenever I wanted.

Too bad the commies never had those things.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Offlineunbeliever
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2771843 - 06/07/04 01:40 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Quote:

unbeliever said:
I want to start a small communist community in the middle of wyoming or one of those kinds of states. That'd rule.




I would be interested to know how many communists that we have posting on this board. I am not red baiting, just interested.




Well I don't believe in communism as a social system really. It just doesn't work on any kind of scale. Beyond, say, a community the size of a village, it begins to break down rapidly. On a small scale with people you know, love and trust.. it can work just fine.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Phred]
    #2771909 - 06/07/04 02:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The Soviets were ahead of the US in rocket (hence missile) technology

Incorrect.

In fact, the history of the Cold War offers many parallels to this pattern, few more enlightening or pertinent than the controversy over the "missile gap"? another case of a threat that everyone perceived as real and immediate (it even helped elect a president) but that, in this case, turned out to be completely false.

It started in 1957, when the CIA's annual top-secret National Intelligence Estimate stated that the Soviets could deploy 100 intercontinental ballistic missiles by the end of 1960 or, if they built them on a crash basis, even the end of '59?500 by the end of 1961 or '62. Not only would such an arsenal greatly outnumber the U.S. missile force, it would also be large enough to wipe out America's entire nuclear arsenal in a surprise first-strike.

This estimate reinforced a report that same year, by a top-level Air Force panel, concluding that the USSR's primary strategic objective was to destroy so much of our arsenal that we would not be able to retaliate effectively?with the result that "the Soviets might well consider that they would be in a position to initiate general [nuclear] war with very little risk."

The estimate was based on Air Force Intelligence data, but its numbers?and its underlying assumptions about Soviet aims and motives?were accepted as truth by the entire intelligence community. (The only dissent came from the Strategic Air Command's intelligence wing, which predicted the Soviets would have not 500 ICBMs but 1,000.)

However, by mid-1958, analysts in the CIA's science and technology division began to notice something strange: The Soviets were still testing plenty of short- and medium-range missiles, but they were dramatically slowing down their ICBM testing; they'd tested only six ICBMs, all told, and hadn't tested any for several months. (The United States had a secret radar site in Turkey that looked out across the Black Sea. The Soviets had two missile test-ranges?one for ICBMs, one for shorter-range missiles, both within this radar's view.)

The CIA analysts wondered: How could the Soviets have 100 missiles in the next couple years when they haven't been testing any lately?

As a response to this skepticism, Air Force officers started spreading the word, to the press and among Democratic hawks in Congress, that CIA chief Allen Dulles and, by implication, President Dwight Eisenhower were dangerously underestimating the Soviet threat. From this stemmed the widespread charges of the administration's complacency about a "missile gap."

The Air Force had a vested interest in the missile gap: The best argument, after all, for a large U.S. arsenal of ICBMs?and thus a large Air Force budget?was that the Soviets were building a still bigger arsenal. In the bureaucratic battles that began to break out, Air Force officers started to stretch the evidence in their favor?arguing that the Soviets were in fact performing a lot of ICBM tests and that the CIA was falsely or mistakenly reporting them as tests of shorter-range missiles. Officers in SAC Intelligence prepared slide-show briefings, in which photos taken by spies inside the Soviet Union?of medieval towers, farm silos, and strange-looking objects plunked down in the middle of nowhere?were interpreted as covert missile sites.

Most of these officers weren't lying; they probably believed what they were saying. They certainly believed the underlying premise about Soviet first-strike intentions. They therefore asked the same question that the CIA analysts asked: How could the Soviets accomplish their strategic aim?which would require building hundreds of ICBMs over the next few years?and yet test so little? The Air Force officers' answer was: They can't; therefore, the CIA must be wrong; the Soviets must be testing a lot more.

John F. Kennedy campaigned for president in 1960 on a platform that assailed Eisenhower for allowing a "missile gap." (He didn't know about the Discoverer shots, nor did Eisenhower tell him or any other Democratic critic.) In February 1961, just one month after taking office, Kennedy's secretary of defense, Robert McNamara, was briefed on the new evidence, and gave Kennedy the news that there was no missile gap?or, rather, that there was, but the United States, not the USSR, was way ahead.

On Dec. 5, 1962, shortly after the resolution of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy was meeting in the Cabinet Room with some of his top advisers and suddenly started to talk about the old missile gap. "There was created a myth in this country that did great harm," he told them. "It was created by, I would say, emotionally guided but nonetheless patriotic individuals in the Pentagon." Calling himself, in a self-deprecating tone, "one of those who put that myth around?a patriotic and misguided man," he said, "I want some research ? dig up the record. ? Otherwise, what it looks like is we, some of us, distorted the facts and created a myth of the gap that didn't exist." (His secret tape-recording of this meeting was declassified by the JFK Library in February 2002.)1


http://slate.msn.com/id/2084988/

support internal disruption in Soviet satellites

Nah, Afghanistan was clearly the most important place for disruption. Which is why the CIA concentrated so heavily on arming and training fanatical fundamentalist muslims.

demoralize the Soviets by generating pressure for change."

This isn't logical is it. By creating a bigger threat people certainly arn't going to demand their country disarms.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2771939 - 06/07/04 02:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


The Soviets were ahead of the US in rocket (hence missile) technology

Incorrect.





Ah, that explains how the US put the first satalite into orbit... and how the US put the animal into orbit... and how the US put the first man in orbit... oh wait, the Soviet Union did all of that... but yes, we were ahead of them in rocket technology.

We were still trying to get off the launch pad in 1957 when sputnik was beeping it's way around the planet. We didn't make it to space until Jan 1958.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Seuss]
    #2771949 - 06/07/04 02:17 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Did you read about the missile gap?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2772004 - 06/07/04 02:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Yes.... once again your "experts" know more than the leaders of the USSR.

:rotfl:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Xlea321]
    #2772156 - 06/07/04 03:26 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

>>> The Soviets were ahead of the US in rocket (hence missile) technology
>> Incorrect.
> Did you read about the missile gap?

Yes, but the initial premise was, "The Soviets were ahead of the US in rocket (hence missile) technology" which is absolutely true in the early days of the cold war. They put the first artifical satalite into space and they put the first person into space. The US spent a huge sum of money to catch up with the Sovient Union. Even in the mid 80's, the Soviets launched the Mir space station, something which was unimaginable to the US at the time. Other than the moon missions, the Soviet Union (/Russia) have always been ahead of the US in space.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: How did he do it? [Re: Seuss]
    #2773572 - 06/07/04 11:52 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The initial premise I was talking about was whether or not Reagan bankrupted the russians by somehow making them "spend more to keep up" in the arms race. Clearly the arms race was effectively over by the late 50's when the americans had achieved an overwhelming supremacy they never relinquised. If Russia didn't feel the need to "keep up" from the late 50's, why would they suddenly get the urge to "keep up" in 1980 when they were already heavily embroiled in Afghanistan?

I'll give the people behind Reagan credit for bringing down the Soviets in one sense - they armed and funded the fanatical muslims in Afghanistan which prolonged a costly war. And of course created men like Osama Bin Laden.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Kommunist 10,042 103 04/14/04 11:02 AM
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* Communist Anarchism DigitalDuality 988 6 05/05/04 03:55 AM
by BleaK
* Kerry's funded by communists and terrorists Great_Satan 1,762 18 10/02/04 10:13 PM
by Worf

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