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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Now don't get me wrong - I should preface that I am very involved in the psychedelic movement as a researcher, policy advocate, and an enthusiast in some instances; I love all things psychedelic... Despite this love, there are some serious issues with the types of people attaching themselves to the psychedelic movement. The Shroomery is of no shortage of these types of people in my experience. Of course, there are many Shroomery members who are not complicit in these issues. Nonetheless, I'm sure this post will be controversial, but I've included the major issues I see with much of the psychedelic movement and psychedelic people - not withholding myself from these issues - and some of the people/ideas on this forum and elsewhere. There are a significant number of neo-Nazis who practice entryism to recruit people from psychedelic communities. This is largely successful considering that both parties often sit outside the dominant culture and share similar oppositions to political structures. Moreover, psychedelic research & use in the West has largely appropriated psychedelic-related practices from Meso- and South-American Indigenous cultures. This is exemplified by the lack of credit, involvement of, and intellectual ownership attributed by white people to Indigenous cultures and peoples. It is also too common for underground psychedelic service providers to appropriate various cultures' symbols, beliefs, practices, etc. into a cultural hodgepodge for the setting of the psychedelic experience they are providing. Although appropriation may be mutual in some instances, more often than not, the mainstreaming & globalization of psychedelics exists in specific contexts/power relationships that results in misrecognition of the cultural lineages of these substances. This misrecognition produces real-world harms to the cultural integrity of traditional, religious, & Indigenous uses of psychedelics. Trans-nationally, it is common for white people in developed nations to travel to drug-tourism hot spots and partake in ceremonies in exchange for goods or currency. Although this is thought to be a consensual process, neo-colonialism shapes trans-national power dynamics that confuse the nature of these relationships. I'm not saying traveling to Peru to drink ayahuasca with the Shipibo people is wrong - but that the neo-colonial relations are often poorly understood if considered at all by the travelers doing this. Lastly, the history of psychedelics are often understood by white and European people in terms of Western histories. Indeed, more attention is given to Huxley, Timothy Leary, Sidney Cohen, Gordon Wasson, Humphrey Osmond, Albert Hoffman etc. than people of colour such as Maria Sabina (who Wasson appropriated the Mazatec mushroom ceremony from and shared with the U.S. without her permission), the Santo Daime or Native American Church, or the advanced epistemologies and medicinal practices of the Shipibo and other Indigenous groups native to the Andes, Mexico, rainforest, Africa, and many other areas. 2. Better than thou attitude I've met far too many psychedelic-minded people who are completely convinced of their enlightenment, self-awareness, and humility, despite being complete assholes. There is an implicit assumption that psychedelics make people more altruistic and compassionate. Occasionally (and usually only when the set & setting is tailored to produce such results) this occurs, but outside these controlled settings, psychedelics just as often reinforce egocentricity. Many erroneously believe that ego-dissolution will make people humbler. Yet, too often people return to normal waking consiousness and upon reconstruction of the self, the self apparently latches onto what memory they have of the experience to justify a superiority-complex; "I existed without a self then, so now I must be able to see through the illusions of the ego". True humility doesn't assume that the psychedelic experience makes one any more or less humble - there is something between the time that the ego dissolves and reforms that determines this - that thing is our own self-reflective judgment that funnels through the ego, regardless of past ego-dissolution. When the ego reforms, the judgments we make of the psychedelic experience are still subject to the self-serving nature of the ego. In short, where many people need to check their ego, psychedelic users need to check their ego-death. The extent to which the psychedelic movement is de-legitimized through association with irrelevant and downright bizarre ideologies or beliefs is unfortunate. Radical anti-vaccine sentiment, conspiracies, beliefs that psychedelics can cure every ailment from A-Z, or can heal your energies (whatever this means), and many other "alternative" or "holistic" forms of healing with no evidence-base are all examples of this. Here's a direct example from a Shroomery member (I usually wouldn't out a specific member but this member was very rude and disrespectful to multiple Shroomery members including myself just for sharing differing views on their theory, so I don't mind highlighting their comment): Quote: These ideas are not too surprising considering that psychedelics artificially increase novelty detection through neurobiological mechanisms (activation in the locus coeruleus in the brainstem). I.e., that 'lightbulb' feeling you get when you discover some new information and grasp a new concept; especially when it is information that feels like it is specially endowed upon us individually and others don't have access to it. In our day to day lives, this is a bottom-up process that stems from external stimuli. But, psychedelics, through their influence on neural activity, makes this process top-down (i.e., not dependent on external stimuli, but instead produced by the internal effects of the drug). In short, psychedelics make people very open and suggestible to new information, regardless of the validity of that information. (I fully acknowledge my left-leaning bias on this point) Many want to believe that psychedelics could fundamentally shift people's attitudes to be more compassionate towards outgroup members (which research has shown is associated with people who are politically left-leaning) and more likely to resist authority or become anti-capitalist. Yet, many people take psychedelics for the first time and rather than their first thoughts being "wow, this could help so many other people!" their first thought is "wow, I could make a ton of money off of this!". Truly, psychedelic corporations (corporadelics) such as COMPASS Pathways, MindMed, etc. are engaging in various commercial practices that intend to patent certain psychedelics, syntheses, organic intermediates, etc. as well as data-fying clients and standardizing psychedelic treatments into 'production-line' styled treatments that maximize profit. Many of these corporadelic actors also have the material means to curb mental health problems to a much greater extent by decreasing financial inequality across the masses (lots of these companies have shares in, partnerships with, or co-founded junk health product lines where employees are barely paid a livable wage) Gwyneth Paltrow's Netflix show, the Goop Lab is a great example of this. Her show is loaded with psuedoscience and often serves to direct consumers to her personal product line. It is also extremely white-washed but I will let you come to your own conclusions about how this happens by watching the show yourself (or don't if you want to avoid subjecting yourself to frustrating illustrations of psychedelic science & medicine) The psychedelic renaissance is not just gaining attention by scientists and interested individuals, but also the public mainstream culture. This has some benefits such as positive publicity, but carries with it all the prejudices, pseudoscience, systemic problems, oppressive narratives, stigma, sensationalism, negative publicity, etc. that is inherent to the mainstream. Psychedelics often don't fit well with the status quo (insofar as they are not being commercialized for economic benefit of the middle and upper classes). The mainstream is likely to report predominantly on psychedelics where their use and publicity supports the status quo. This issue leads into many of the previous issues where psychedelics are usually represented in ways that support white supremacy (favouring European histories), commercialization (advertising), and many other dominant ideologies with commercial or ideological interests. To conclude, none of these issues strictly undermine the therapeutic, entheogenic, or recreational legitimacy of psychedelic use. But, to construct the equitable, accesible, and evidence-based paradigm for psychedelic healing & access most of the Shroomery likely envisions, these are the issues I believe need to be tackled. Psychedelic cheer-leading is already in abundance. If unguided, psychedelic cheer-leading is likely to reproduce the very harms we are trying to treat with psychedelics. What we need now is social justice, evidence, and humility. To quote the Auryn Project's webcomic, We Will Call it Pala: "It was clear that patients were so eager for psychedelic treatment that they would waive nearly all their privacy rights away. There is no medicine strong enough to blow a corporation's mind. We can look around today and see many psychedelic business models. But what we really need are psychedelic models for business - business that defines new standards for integrity, equity and ethics; business reimagined with a technicolor glow. What vision do you hold in your heart for a psychedelic future? What will you do now, while you can, to see that it is realized?" EDIT: Many people have asked for sources supporting these criticisms, so here are mutliple works by experts in the field that support these points: Culture, Context, and Community in Contemporary Psychedelic Research: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/80 Chacruna's website (see: "Psychedelic Justice" at the top of the webpage): https://chacruna.net/ Decolonizing Psychedelics: https://chacruna.net/decolonizi Addressing Power and Privilege in Psychedelic Medicine:: https://chacruna.net/blinded-by The Dark Side of the Shroom: https://anthrosource.onlinelibr Right-Wing Psychedelia: Case Studies in Cultural Plasticity: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov Monnica Williams' List of Publications (including the intersection of race & psychedelics): https://monnicawilliams.com/pub Psymposia's various articles & podcast on psychedelic capitalism, culture, surveillance, etc.: https://www.psymposia.com/ Can everyone reading this thread who wishes to criticize my post please look through the thread history before posting? I welcome all criticism but when I have to repeat myself it inhibits the generation of new ideas and a productive flow of discourse directed towards a teleological resolution. Let's generate some new ideas/criticisms by informing ourselves on those criticisms that have already been made & build off them rather than repeat them Edited by Rhizomorph (03/06/23 11:40 AM)
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,258 Last seen: 9 hours, 18 minutes |
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Might be more relevant in the drug policy subforum, but things don't get seen in there.
A number of these issues could be solved by simply removing the medicalization aspects of legalization. Legalization has always been closely tied to "medical benefits", and some advocates are very careful to refer to weed and shrooms as "medicine". While there is almost certainly a medical reason to consume weed/shrooms, the majority of legalization advocates/users (in my experience) simply wanna get high without committing crimes. This doesn't really address the capitalistic concerns that will always be present in a capitalist economy, but it does address your second, third, and fifth points pretty directly. Or, at the very least, it decouples legalization from the more problematic aspects of those points.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Yeah I wasn't certain which forum to post it to. The drug policy subforum seems to get like 1 new post a month and like 5 views from what I've seen haha. If mods want to move it they can though
I personally don't have a problem with medicalization so long as it is not at the expense of concurrent legalization. Although medicalization is largely a topic of structural changes, issues of mainstreaming, superiority complexes, and white supremacy, etc. are cultural and will thus make their way into the legalization movement as well. There are definitely areas where the medical model is more complicit in these issues, but I believe that these issues are not inherent to one model or the other. I think legalization will help, but I don't think it is sufficient alone to solve most of these issues if we don't also try to change psychedelic culture as a whole, to be more humble and aware. I'm obviously drawing broad connections here as the same could be said about most of society - white supremacy for example is ubiquitous across society. I'm mainly focusing on how it congregates in psychedelic communities due to the suggestible nature of psychedelic consciousness. And that this is despite the assumption that psychedelics challenge white supremacy. I'm really just trying to challenge the implicit assumptions people have of psychedelics more than anything. Just the fact that psychedelic research and drug policy reforms are predominantly taking place in the West while policy agreements between developed and underdeveloped nations prevent legalization movements' efficacy in underdeveloped nations (where knowledge of these drugs often originated) is evidence enough that white supremacy occurs in legalization efforts. The actors behind the movement don't have to be white supremacists for white supremacy to occur if the reforms take place in just so happen to be temporally and spatially embedded in colonial relations (Western nations reforming first, with developing nations following afterwards). Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Interesting to think how all these structural & individual actions combine to shape overlapping systems of social change
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/25/23 11:17 PM)
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Registered: 06/15/07 Posts: 1,720 |
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I really don't see the problem with people who grow or manufacture drugs to get paid for their time, effort, and risk of imprisonment.
if you took away profit there would be a huge decline in the amount of people who would have access to a psychedelic experience.
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Registered: 01/13/18 Posts: 4,632 Loc: the womb |
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There needs to be trailblazers providing psychedelic medicine to the people via the black market but with that said it's a very fine line between that and selling out. They even blur together quite often.
-------------------- - nick sand Edited by Psicomb (02/28/22 07:28 PM)
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Quote: They look goofy but the woke perspective that this actually causes harm is even goofier. -------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Strange Registered: 06/27/19 Posts: 1,341 Loc: Midwest Last seen: 9 days, 3 hours |
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Your post raises an issue that often receives little attention. Psychedelics are often praised as being the least harmful drugs, which may be true in the sense of physical effects. They are also touted for their value in treating some mental conditions.
What needs further research is their potential to mislead users in the belief that they, somehow, have become more aware of reality when in fact, they could be falling into delusional thinking. This probably goes along with the arrogance that occurs when someone believes that, somehow they have become better and more enlightened than others. Could this be related to the embracement of pseudoscience, conspiracy theories and white supremacy we often see in the forums? It is not easy to ascribe a cause and effect here. However, it needs to be researched and better understood. Rushing to promote these substances without fully understanding the issues mentioned above pose potential problems.
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Registered: 01/13/18 Posts: 4,632 Loc: the womb |
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It's pretty scary to think about for sure. Dr Janiger described in their studies back 60 years ago how people could often be easily influenced by others while under the influence of LSD regarding decision making and beliefs.
the book LSD, Spirituality, and the Creative Process has some documented trip reports from those studies that detail that vulnerability in thinking -------------------- - nick sand Edited by Psicomb (02/28/22 07:27 PM)
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Cracka Registered: 02/02/22 Posts: 57 Loc: Colorado Last seen: 1 year, 9 months |
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groups are gay and stupid, uncreative people, all look, act, and talk the same. NPC-like. low bit rate, as mckenna would say.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Oh certainly. My criticisms were more focused on psychedelic therapy paradigms that have the primary goal of accumulating capital (especially excessive levels of capital) at the expense of peoples' wellbeing. Obviously producers, psychotherapists, doctors, legal, and administrative professionals should all be paid for their work. I intend to become a psychedelic-assisted therapist, but my core intentions are client-centered. Income is peripheral to my intention to improve clients' wellbeing for example, not the reverse. Patenting organic compounds that occur naturally in mushrooms or data-fying clients is not client-centered if you ask me. These actions are for the sole purposes of making money. I encourage you to read up on the Auryn Project's webcomic I linked - it explores some of the issues that may present if access models for psychedelic use takes on a predominantly privatized business format. Edited by Rhizomorph (02/28/22 09:52 PM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Wholeheartedly agree. As you point out, ascribing cause and effect is very challenging. Many of these criticisms are cultural in nature. As with many studies on the effects of culture (e.g., by sociologists and critical theorists), positivism (methods that include empirical assessments) can too often become nearly impossible to employ in "soft sciences" due to the lack of reliable measurement tools that are otherwise utilized in "hard" sciences. This is precisely why social theory relies more on interpretative methods and outcomes agreed upon by the expert consensus - when positivism cannot be employed (because culture is arbitrary, dynamic, and subjective), interpretive & consensus-based epistemologies are the next most reliable tool. Is this truly evidence-based? Hard to say... I'd argue these qualitative interpretations of culture are a necessity for lack of more reliable methods. I don't claim my cultural assessment to be perfect though. Not least this one I spontaneously wrote up while I was bored. Nonetheless, many cultural effects generally stand the effect of time. certain aspects of religion, government, and power relations (e.g., white supremacy and dichotomies between structure and individual agency or dominant and subordinated narratives) are reasonably consistent across society. The criticisms in my OP are mere considerations and must be understood deferentially in each social context, however. I think culture is largely taken for granted by the average person as social theorists like Stuart Hall would suggest, or for a psychedelic-figure many Shroomery members would know, Terence McKenna. This effect is especially true for psychedelic users who may feel they are enlightened and somehow "beyond" culture(s). The irony is that many, including myself, while listening to Terence McKenna, are tapping into the exact feeling of novelty that so often makes us feel "woke". Even talking about these issues, I have to be careful not to gatekeep knowledge and continually self-reflect so as to keep my ego(-death) in check. I'm certain that in between mindfulness, my ego latches onto these ideas regardless. Taking a large dose of mushrooms certainly won't be a magic cure for this either (not that it couldn't help - but it could go either way and I'm sure will never eliminate this effect). It's a never-ending process of learning & unlearning. -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (02/28/22 09:19 PM)
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Local Oaf Registered: 07/20/19 Posts: 1,005 Last seen: 11 months, 3 days |
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I needed to/ need to read this. Posting so I can remember where to look when I’m less sleepy.
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Registered: 06/15/07 Posts: 1,720 |
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Oh I gotcha. I thought you were being one of those people that says "mushrooms should be free man. Mushrooms are too sacred to be sold"
Any time the drive for high profits mixed in with well-being/medical rarely works out best for the patient.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Nah anything with material worth should be free for sale - but hard restrictions should be placed where human rights, well-being, etc. are concerned. The infinite expansionism inherent in neoliberal policy means capitalism will commodify anything it can, including human well-being if gone unchecked. This is why 'absolute' free market strategies aren't really free in my opinion - they are explicitly shaped by power dynamics that reproduce and capitalize off of human suffering. I have no problem with neoliberalism to the extent that it doesn't undermine well-being. Of course, there are areas where the line between free markets and well-being is unclear... It seems obvious to me that neoliberalism has to be met with some level of restriction though, at least in the psychedelic movement where the outcomes are predominantly aimed at basic human needs (health) and rights (cognitive liberty). Economic restrictions should be data-driven from a health- rights- and well-being-focused standpoint, not the other way around. Afterall, capitalism is supposed to serve the essential/basic interests of everyone, no? If mushrooms were "too sacred to be sold", it would be impossible to build sustainable capacity to safely and widely share them with those who benefit the most from their sacredness. The key is that profits should flow downwards from integrity first and foremost Edited by Rhizomorph (03/20/22 08:13 PM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Do stereotypes and their resulting prejudices and policy-outcomes not constitute harms? It sounds like you're implying cultural representations have no morally significant political or social outcomes. Critical social theory almost unanimously acknowledges the harmful macrosocial influences of cultural appropriation on subordinated social groups... I get that it seems a distant concept (goofy), but this is because social life is often taken for granted; humans are generally born socially competent, but not sociologically competent. We did not evolve to understand post-industrial globalized societies - we developed to survive in comparatively minuscule groups - we developed an in-group bias. Thus, we have an inborn proclivity to overemphasize individual/micro-level explanations at the expense of situational/macro-level explanations when characterizing social phenomena. This is both a sociological (see: Durkheim's sociological imagination) and a psychological (see: the empirically validated fundamental attribution error) effect. It takes specialized sociological training to unpack these prehistoric common sense judgments. Thankfully, critical theory has self-reflective criticality baked into the core of it's theoretical orientation (see: Michel Foucault on knowledge & power) so I believe it does a decent job of avoiding being overbearingly "woke" in acknowledging, and ethically wielding the inherent power in its own epistemic methods and power to produce/utilize knowledge. Not to say it is immune to this, but it certainly doesn't epitomize "wokeness" either... It's less, or at the least, equally woke as most other ideologies due to this theoretical cornerstone. TL;DR: If we are to align with the evidence, cultural appropriation is harmful. If social science is "a woke perspective... that is goofy" as you say, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/05/22 12:53 AM)
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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I’ve read Foucault
White people invented the automobile. White people invented the airplane. I’m sick of other races appropriating our shit. They should just fucking walk. Or, maybe, we could just borrow and enjoy each other’s culture and quit pretending it causes harm. White guy wears a doorag. Omg what a shameful appropriation. Hippy wears Indian shit. Thief! Just the way your post is such a bunch of word salad gooblygook tells me you’re doing mental gymnastics to justify getting uptight about nothing. But before you respond I get it, white people bad. I’ve heard.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Quote: Yes. That’s why we need dispense with the stereotype that whites are cultural thieves when it’s healthy and normal for cultures to borrow from each other. Even if you’re white. The idea that whiteness is inherently bad harms white people. Especially children. -------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: When simplifying it to "social theory supports claims to white supremacy" it evidently goes over your head. Thus, it is perspectives like yours that force people to become pedantic as discrimination sits in the very teeth of unscientific prejudices. If you have read Foucault or any of the Frankfurt scholars' works you wouldn't be repeating that white people suffer from appropriation in remotely the same way subordinated groups do. This type of thinking is the real dead horse and is certainly older and more repetitive in the dominant culture comparatively (Side note: How about we skip out on the passive aggressive yawning and using words like "gooblygook" so the conversation remains objective, credible, and mature?)Anyhow, my professors don't seem to think my writing is word salad in my sociology and psychology papers + thesis - maybe you just have trouble understanding academic jargon? I wouldn't blame you, but in this case, I urge you to avoid criticizing a language you don't speak. I don't criticize the grammar of Japanese speakers... But I won't argue with somebody who is clearly just spreading dominant oppresive ideologies... Confrontation only serves to reinforce prejudices... I don't hope to change your mind - only to highlight for other readers how white supremacy makes its way into psychedelic circles, as evidenced by your comments. Edited by Rhizomorph (03/05/22 08:48 PM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Journal Article: "What is (the wrong of) Cultural Appropriation?": https://journals.sagepub.com/do Quote: "Cultural appropriation is about power’, says one critic, ‘that empowers white people to take whatever they want’ (Anyangwe, 2018)" Quote: "Here, the wrong stems not simply from the ongoing structural injustice to which blacks are subject, especially in the United States, but also from the ways in which American blacks have been subject to injustice for all of their history" Journal Article: "Does Cultural Appropriation Cause Harm?": https://www.tandfonline.com/doi Quote:Cultural appropriation is often called a buzzword and dismissed as a concept for serious engagement" - this is essentially what you're doing by not examining intersectional relations between different groups with a focus on structural power (inequal between minorities and white people) versus individual agency (oriented at both minorities and white people) If appropriation is a structure-level issue (as validated by various construct analyses; I.e., statistical analyses of structure-level data. Or to simplify -> using statistics to prove social interactions that are big rather than small ) then white people will not suffer from it.Some more word salad for you, from the scholars themselves: "Exploitation, in this case, is structural since what matters is not only an unfair transaction between two parties, where say one cultural piece is undervalued in a face-to-face transaction, but rather a structural imbalance of power produced by injustice in the political and social environment (Zwolinski 2012). Appropriation masks power imbalances as it appears that society is accepting the culture" as I said, culture taken for granted... "since cultural imagery and names are being sold and shared widely but, in reality, these cultural materials may not reflect the culture accurately and most often do not financially benefit the culture, but the dominant culture at large." So if white people are stereotyped as being cultural thieves, they will only suffer at the microsociological (small) level, equivalent to that of minorities. But considering that they benefit at the macrosociological (big) level, and these benefits are disproportionate, white people ultimately benefit -> efforts to undo this "stereotype" would only serve to protect white people from microsociological harm at the expense of accountability for their complicit reproduction of macrosociological harms. If this is too pedantic for you then put simply, undoing the narrative of white people perpetrating appropriation harms would only compound structural racism. In effect, doubling down on racism to protect white people in day-to-day interactions from feeling bad for racism This could all be simplified if you understood the basic concept that racism is structural whereas prejudice is individual. But your comments necessitate that I provide a deeper explanation as they assume that white people suffer from cultural appropriation, a structure-level problem. Edited by Rhizomorph (03/05/22 08:35 PM)
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Wow. College. Dude, I’ve read all those fuckers.
I read it before it became your religion. When it was still interesting. To say I wouldn’t think that if I had read this and that is stupid. It reminds me of another poster who didn’t believe I travelled extensively in the third world. Idgaf if your professors think you can write. So did mine. And what I wrote wasn’t just regurgitated woke code religion. I’ve always been radical. White people are fucking awesome. The rest of the world is our bitches. Even the way you write is pure imperial white boy whiteness wonder bread super whitey. So good for you. -------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Quote:
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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K boomer
![]() No hard feelings hey?
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/05/22 09:28 PM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Quote: *Demonstrating writing capabilities and not regurgitating religion intensifies* Oh god... I'm participating in the childishness... what have you done?? ![]() This is what I get for thinking I could have a reasonable conversation with someone whose profile picture is of a dude squeezing some chicks ass ![]() Anyways I'm gonna peace out from this conversation. I have actual adult peers who have the means to make a difference in their fields of work by maturely discussing these issues and conducting research that takes culture into account. Not sure why I'm wasting my time on you ![]() Thanks for setting an example - see points 1, 2 & 3 of the OP
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/05/22 10:00 PM)
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Quote: Im gen x Quote: Pardon me, do you have any Grey Poupon? -------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Glad to hear it has brought you insight!
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,258 Last seen: 9 hours, 18 minutes |
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Quote: Ok Karen.
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Y’all need to stop trying to appropriate the black power struggle. It’s not yours.
Once whitey gets into it they bleach it and destroy it every fucking time. Black people don’t need your help. You serve black people better admitting you can’t be an ally. When it comes down to the fight for resources shelter and protection you will always embrace your white skin. Instead of hiding behind Foucault or Kierkegaard or pretending you’re down with Fred Hampton just be honest. You care about you and yours and everything else is a big fucking fantasy. -------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Who hurt you? When we take ownership of our pains and struggles and recognize that not everyone is out to get us, it becomes a lot easier to stop seeing the world through a dog eat dog mentality If there's one thing I learned above all else, it's that emotionally mature people tend to not assume extremely pessimistic black & white worldviews. Indeed, as a training psychotherapist, a staple of cognitive therapy is addressing how cognitive distortions give rise to suffering (such as anger). I'm sorry for whatever you are going through. Truly ![]() If you ever need somebody to talk to, feel free to PM me. I'm happy to put aside any of the negative tensions in the content of this conversation. I'm sure in many other regards we can see the humanity in each other - the internet does strange things to how we regard others Lets try to stay positive hey? A tolerance for uncertainty & differing perspectives goes a long way... Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/22 10:58 PM)
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Goddamn that was white af
Quote: Quote: What I’m seeing here is that you want to police some hippy white woman for how she trips on peyote in the desert. Tell her that her entire non-violent well-intentioned lifestyle causes literal harm because she wears feathers or sleeps in a teepee or whatever petty shit. No matter how much padding you put on it with your academic language it’s aggressive as shit to turn her into a symbol of the oppressor. And to make it even more disgusting, you totally lack the humility to admit that the way you speak and write is intensely alienating to pretty much everyone outside your cohort. The constant fucking finger pointing and self-righteousness is seriously mind boggling. I mean look at your thread title. Pointing out every perceived flaw with your judgmental attitude. Quote: stay in your lane
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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Quote: That's the problem. Profiteers do NOT let ANYTHING "flow down". There is no integrity with them. Greed and power are killing the world.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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I've met plenty of people who are working in for-profit companies who want to see ethical business models, but too often they have to suck the little toe of the man above, cut ethical corners to abide by legally binding contracts with investors, or to compete with other businesses.
The issue is not that there is no integrity at all - it is the overgrowth of greed mixed with policies that maintain the dominance of that greed over integrity. Neoliberalism needs reform to the extent that greed overpowers integrity. So many would probably just discredit me as a socialist though...
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/09/22 11:41 AM)
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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Quote: That's just it. They don't HAVE to "cut ethical corners", they choose to and justify it by saying that. What, they have to be greedy to compete with other greedy people just because, that's why? ![]() ![]() Corporate greed and just plain greed is killing the world, period. Who in the FUCK needs over a billion fucking bucks? Or even a few million? Even one million? Why the fuck can't a company that makes 5 million make 2-3 million instead and pay people a living fucking wage? Greed, that's why. Why can't a company that makes a mill make a half mill instead? Greed.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: I suppose it depends how you define "have to" and who in particular you're talking about. When I say "have to" I mean there are major structural constraints to the individual's autonomy, specifically for low-wage/low-level workers. Many of the workers in lower-wage positions have to agree to the company's economic policy, or they risk losing their jobs or opportunity for upwards mobility. Major CEO's and investors certainly don't "have to" do anything technically (they have the material means to withstand economic punishments) and I agree they should pay their workers a greater minimum wage. As much as it is unethical, even CEOs have legally binding contracts where they are expected to pay low wages for the benefit of the investors. They "have to" extract/exploit millions from their workers' labour or their investors risk pulling out or suing the company which would destroy it. Could they let their company die? Yes. But the prospect of making millions versus losing your job & income is highly coercive. This is why I also highlight the harmful outcomes of neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is the economic policy that allows (or really ensures) that investors can sue. Indeed, if ethical/data-driven restraints to neoliberalism were implemented, capitalists wouldn't be forced into these structural positions where they have to choose between exploiting workers/making millions or losing their jobs. It is absurd how capitalism simultaneously has binding contracts that keep millionaires exploiting people while also giving them disproportional benefits for doing so. The CEOs are terrible, but it is also a policy issue and we need to recognize how lower classes are coerced by the structure as well. More often than not, capitalists are able to influence policy to maintain neoliberalism. Employees on the other hand often "have to" maintain the structure for subsistence or job security, while having little influence on policy decisions. What I want to see is not only CEO's paying reparations (as you imply), but also CEOs & lower classes voting/lobbying for policy reform. I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to tie apart the nuances.
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (09/25/22 04:00 PM)
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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Great response, thanks. It's a circle jerk of greed that started a loooong time ago and just keeps going. Who/what company will be the one to stop it? Not one is my guess because they would be forced out of business for being too competitive and undercutting everyone else is what I read somewhere some time ago. (I have no links or source for this claim) Will the government or other people/companies/ceo's etc force other companies to take less? HELL FUCK no! That would defeat the sole purpose of capitalism. There's a "they're all doing it and it's what's in place. Fuck you I got mine/I'm getting mine and you can too" attitude with the whole fucking thing and it's sickening. *SIGH*
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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True that
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
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Stranger Registered: 03/02/22 Posts: 47 Last seen: 1 year, 10 months |
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Yea or what about the ultimate appropriation, learning a different language? I am I allowed to do that. Do I have to check in with someone first to see if that is ok?
What about going out in the sun with no shirt and getting a tan? This is all just Hegelian (Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel) nonsense spewed by unthinking people who don't even know they are just repeating the thoughts of an intellectual charlatan who had been done away with but has been making a huge unfortunate come back. Quote:
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: This is a good point (although the sarcasm is unnecessary). I would argue that the harms of cultural appropriation listed in the article I shared before don't really apply to languages given the differential power relations. Unlike appropriating say, clothing or symbols, which is easy to do and marked by historical power relations, learning a language is hard, and when English speakers do so, it allows greater opportunity for the subaltern to resist being assimilated into the English hegemony (thus avoiding misrecognition). Historically and currently, power has been maintained through English speakers not learning other languages. This is extremely evident in state nation-building strategies that promote a dominant english speaking identity (over colonized identities/languages). Always asking "how do global/systemic power relations contextualize this?" can help to tease apart these nuances. This is why the authors identify that not all forms of cultural appropriation are harmful. Cultural appropriation gets a bad rep because the majority of it happens to be harmful due to these power relations. Another thought that I have is that languages can be harmfully appropriated if the person learning the language uses the language in ways that misrepresents said group, has poor intentions, or, say, purposefully mimics stereotypical accents (misrecognition according to the article I mentioned). Again, it is a nuanced picture, but there are harms when white people appropriate psychedelic ceremonies for example. Context matters. Quote:How is this culture-specific? For groups to have cultural ownership it has to be specific enough to be extremely unlikely to occur at random in 2 distinct populations... Sitting in the sun is ubiquitous... Quote: Source? I've read a lot of Hegel and never heard him discuss cultural appropriation... and please don't say the downright uninformed view that "all social theory is just Hegelianism rebranded". Nobody with any reasonable degree of specialized knowledge in philosophy believes this. The fact that you're quoting TheFakeSunRa is unfortunate considering he just made a fool of himself (in terms of both the lack of knowledge he demonstrated and the hostile/immature attitude). I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't share the same attitude - looking forward to your response!
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/11/22 04:34 AM)
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Quote: ![]() What dafuq you talkin bout, Willis? Quote: -------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Quote: It’s incredible I really don’t think you’re trolling. What foreign languages do you fucking speak? (None) -------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,258 Last seen: 9 hours, 18 minutes |
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Trying to explain the harms of cultural appropriation to right wingers is like trying to explain color to a blind man.
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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I’m a pure leftist. Not some let them eat diversity neo-lib. Class reductionism all day.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: I always try to be optimistic of others' capacity to have open-minded conversations. The problem I see with many right-wing politics, or politics that otherwise assume class essentialism (e.g., class reductionism), is that, in the social sciences, these ideas have very poor predictive power in terms of tangible outcomes or strategies to address social harms and inequality. We see it time and time again... This is the irony of mainstream views of social sciences as being "religious" or "interpretivist", is that social sciences, despite their problems, continually predict tangible/real-world social phenomena more reliably than just about any other viewpoint. It's also why, I would argue (not to discount bias as contributing to a proportion of the variance - but bias certainly does not account for the sum of the variance), the more educated people become, and the higher their IQ & emotional intelligence, the more left-leaning they become, generally speaking. Social scientists have grown increasingly frustrated with the dominant culture as they are expected to be both evidence based while also appealing to these dominant ideologies. Yet, the evidence supports left-leaning policies while the dominant culture supports a socially stratified status quo. In social & cognitive psychology there is much research being done on persuasion, in-group associations, implicit out-group associations, and political identification. The Dual Process Model helps to understand how political/ideological beliefs are formed. Most people develop their political beliefs, or are persuaded by "type 1 thinking" or intuitive/gut-thinking. This type of thinking is generally more automatic/implicit, and generally favours heuristics, people or concepts that are likeable, or aesthetically pleasing, highly valent emotions such as anger or fear, and in-group associations, such as those with family, friends, co-workers, people in our own culture, race, etc. etc. And of course, is associated with a higher degree of conservatism, individualism and rejection of critical social theories. The other type of thinking is type 2, which is more explicit/conscious, and driven by personality traits such as a higher need for cognition, reliance on evidence, rule-based, and rational thinking. Because the history of human evolution has largely taken place in small in-groups with high conflict, risk, and survival demands, type 2 thinking has become peripheral to type 1 thinking, which is why we see greater type 2 thinking among left-wing/educated people, as they have undergone targeted training to undo these cognitive tendencies. This is why I'm not too surprised, and know to take a light-hearted attitude in response to TheFakeSunRa when he calls me a faggot for sharing empirically-validated academic sources or using jargon that goes over his head. The "explaining colour to a blind person" analogy applies well, yet it is more complex than simple semantic misunderstandings - it is a socioemotional misunderstanding rooted in human developmental history. Being able to recognize this interactional process between individual, society, and history, rather than just viewing the individual as dumb, is crucial - again, it is the sociological imagination at play; the ability to relate microsocial symbolic interactions to macrosocial contexts, history, and social psychology; unlike type 1 thinking, sociological imaginations are not inborn and require effort to learn. Nonetheless it is quite a frustrating ordeal to have to develop persuasion strategies that target non-rational cues such as likeability and aesthetics over hard evidence in the context of global human sufferings, especially when you know that it is, in part, because people are born with a reliance on their "reptillian brain" (i.e., subcortical functions versus prefrontal cortex functions). It's why I try not to judge - these ideas stem from fear & emotional vulnerability so people often just can't help it. The unfortunate part is that while privileged white men with political power struggle to sort out the relationship between their amygdala and frontal cortex (which is ironically one of the developmental task of adolescents), the evidence unanimously highlights how their beliefs reproduce seriously awful global harms towards oppressed social strata. Thus, it is necessary to find a balance of emphasizing the urgency while trying to reduce white shame so white people can recognize and begin to unlearn their role in the issue without resolving to defensiveness. This urgency often doesn't pair well with non-judgmental/non-confrontation ![]() At the end of the day, the best defense against foolishness is modelling emotionally mature behaviour, regardless of how others act
Edited by Rhizomorph (02/17/23 11:14 AM)
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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I'm loving it!
![]() Great post!
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Thanks!!
![]() -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Are you white?
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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https://apnews.com/article/covi
Quote: This is where race and identity reductionism always leads. So-called academics crying about who said nigger or who used the wrong pronouns while the poor are constantly being shit on. The only justice is economic justice. Quote: In other words, white liberals agree. You talk about cognitive development but you haven’t said one fucking thing that isn’t just a blanket regurgitation of the bullshit you “learned” in college. Anybody can go to school and parrot their liberal professors who cry over bitch ass shit like Jan 6 and 9/11 or the Kennedy assassination. -------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Doctor Registered: 02/12/07 Posts: 3,115 Loc: Earth |
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This is a really good thread, action packed. You're both just lighting your farts on fire, beautiful and brilliant.
A dazzling cross section of internet culture, 10/10, would recommend to friends and family. -------------------- If you can’t tell what you desperately need, it’s probably sleep.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Thanks jack_straw! I am thoroughly enjoying lighting my farts on fire for you and your family's entertainment
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/13/22 03:47 AM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: ![]()
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/13/22 03:33 AM)
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,258 Last seen: 9 hours, 18 minutes |
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Quote: I dunno man. I've largely given up converting right wingers. It's one of those side benefits of being a cis white male: the US could go full fash and I'll be fine. I'd probably be even better off, actually. Society won't, but I will. At least in relative terms. I expect quality of life to go down across the board. That has nothing to do with politics, it's just economic reality at this point. In reality, I think the US will collapse to some form of right wing single party ecofascism over the next few decades. I expect the talking points of "we must reduce the resource consumption of everyone else outside of the haves in the US at any cost" to start becoming more common around the 2028 elections. I would also expect republicans to co-opt some form of class reductionism in an effort to create more Bernie/Trump voters. Probably a misguided attempt, TBH. In my opinion, Obama/Bernie/Trump voters are less "moderate" voters and more "do what the charismatic guy says" voters.
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Bitch Splitter Registered: 03/01/05 Posts: 16,449 Loc: Dirdy SOUF |
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Quote: lol -------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: I'm not sure about that. Not that I don't think it is possible, but I think predicting that scale of political change is like trying to predict the stock market. It necessitates some fairly elaborate systematic political analyses and few experts doing this type of work believe this. But I see where the concern comes from. I believe it is more likely that liberal sciences will uncover greater evidence that contradicts republican/conservative politics but expanding technological industrialism and technological fear- and attention-based economies will engage with dominant right wing politics to allow for more covert resistance to left-wing evidence-based social programs. For example, how under surveillance capitalism, capitalism has seen an increase in data commodification as big data is a relatively new phenomenon with uncharted legislature, making it ripe for the exploitation of capitalism as a project programmed to endlessly expanding and search for new capital (think venture capitalism). I believe it was Haggerty and Ericson who called this the Surveillant Assemblage and even compared it to rhizome/mycorrhizal mycelial networks - where one surveillance route gets cut off, the sytem branches out finding new avenues, populations, etc. to surveil. and subsequently capitalize off of this surveillance by selling the information to those who generally support right-leaning status quos. I would personally compare it to AI systems that, when you tell them to play a game by the rules, the AI manages to find bugs in the logic of the game to break the game, and make it work in their favour (in life, the rules are human rights policies and the AI is capitalism, in this analogy).In this sense it could also make sense to view conservatism as a hydra - cut off one head and two more pop up; and of course, this is driven by commodity fetishism, including privacy as a commodity. Thus, as new evidence surfaces in favour of decolonization, economic socialization, etc., capitalism and white supremacy will find more covert ways of resisting these projects through novel industrial and ideological developments. This pattern isn't new... We saw a similar pattern with post-industrialism and the globalization of culture which explained why a Marxist revolution never occurred - coincidentally Marx himself was a class reductionist and didn't account for what (at the time) was a cultural resistance to his left-wing economic theory produced by culture industries; culture industries tend to support right-wing ideologies as these ideologies are more profitable. And so, the consumers of culture are socialized to believe in these ideologies. It is also agreed upn by most historians, political scientists, etc. that this is partially why the Nazi party was so successful -> Hitler took the industrialization of culture into his own hands to produce an ultranationalist aryan identity. Likewise, today we see technology further industrializing culture in more illusory and covert ways. I think it is hard to dethrone the left's power of evidence today though, especially after what we know abut how important social sciences are in preventing totalitarianism (such as the World Wars), and even at the far reaches of knowledge commodification, knowledge confronts the individual with responsibility, and at least a large portion of scientists have the humility to address this concern and sidestep mainstream taken for granted perspectives. Meanwhile, the right's capitalization of culture is also very powerful as sciences themselves are still socially stratified and take place under the foot of cultural engineers (to use McKenna's words). Really all I see is an ever-growing trend of pluralism consistent with post-modernism and post-structuralism. Of course I take these theories with a grain of salt given their pragmatic limitations with regards to the usefulness and arguably necessary function of meta-narratives in some contexts (if social meaning is subjective, how do we come to standardized conclusions??). But, understanding how meta-narratives are in decline relatively/generally is where these theories are useful in my opinion. What is scary to me is the resistance of these problematic ideologies through increasingly covert means. Like a ghost in the shadow lurking behind the smile of our friendly neighbour, doctor or the memes on our cellphones... Fuck society is weird and interesting
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/14/22 09:59 PM)
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Registered: 06/02/17 Posts: 1,623 |
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Interesting points in the original post and all true.
The 5 main points are the same as what you will find in any subculture and any online group though. There is always a diversity of qualities in people, different levels of education, different political stripes, different personality types, different motivations... This forum being an English-based one means there is a bias for all things Western and explains why Leary, Huxley and Co. are better known than Sabina. If we were to join an online Spanish or Japanese shroom message board there would be ethno-cultural biases there too which is only natural. I would also add that there is nothing special about the psychedelic community and its people are no more enlightened than any other group. People are attracted to and use mushrooms for different reasons and it could be nothing more than a a fun thing to do and a chance to trip balls. Not everyone is into introspection and gaining insights into self and the world at large through psychedelics. Then there are those who use shrooms to treat depression and/or anxiety, while others are habitual drug users/abusers looking for any substance to get high. There is no reason why people in the psychedelic community should be more scientifically-minded or why they should be held to a higher standard than everyone else, it is an expectation I had too once had which has mostly led to disappointment. More than anything else, being tolerant and kind are the best things we can do in groups like this - not to try to change others or to convince them that our views are correct.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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These are really good points.
However, my observations, and I would contend that the observations of most of my peers & many experts in the social sciences have found these issues to be disproportional between psychedelic communities and the regular population. Of course every culture has an in-group focused enthno-cultural bias. But I'm curious as to which ethno-cultural biases you are referring to within Spanish & Japanese cultures specifically that could override the influence of the dominant culture? The reason I ask this is because there is substantial evidence that the dominant (Western) culture does makes its way into subordinated cultures, whereas the reverse cannot usually be said, generally speaking. The cultural industry, and by extension, the psychedelic cultural industry often tends to overshadow subordinated cultures; we have to consider these power dynamics. Bear in mind that culture is objectively situated in a dialectic relation between structure-agency Food for thought: If every white person knows about Huxley and only 10% of them know about Maria Sabina, whereas every Mexican person knows about Maria Sabina & knows about Huxley, both groups still have an ethno-cultural bias, but through structure-agency relationships, the dominant culture still exerts a coercive power over subordinated groups in this situation (these numbers are obviously rhetorical and simply reflect the disproportional historical literacy between these groups; with white people generally being less literate on the politics outside the west) I'll bet if you went onto a Japanese speaking forum where they were discussing psychedelic medicine, a lot of discourse would still be around Huxley and Leary. Indeed, white people have the privilege of not needing cultural capital to have equal opportunities in a Eurocentric economy; Mexican people for example, will likely know their own history, but are compelled (via the impact of structure on agency) to learn about white histories as these histories carry greater cultural capital given the power of white culture. In fact, this is evidenced by the fact that most of the scientific journals and news press around psychedelics are Western-focused; counternarcotics agreements between the more developed nations and less developed nations also prevents research on psychedelics in other areas of the world. Thus, neocolonial power relations have shaped not only culture, but also where scientific and thus cultural production is allowed to take place. As such, I don't see how pointing out that every group has an in-group bias is relevant given these power dynamics. I can only draw upon personal experience here, but I cease to see how psychedelic people don't disproportionately view themselves as "enlightened" or otherwise develop ego-serving attitudes around psychedelics. The same problem exists in many spiritual communities at large and psychedelics have become culturally embedded within spiritual practice (and especially pseudo-mysticism). Could you elaborate further on what you mean by this point? In terms of your point on being held to a scientific standard, I think you may have misunderstood. I am by no means saying that we should hold psychedelic people to a higher standard; I think my post is consistent with the fact that we should hold them to an equal standard. Again, the reason I selectively highlight the psychedelic community is because the culture of pseudo-mysticism, cultural appropriation, etc. is disproportionately unscientific compared to the overall population. The existing discourse analyses & ethnographic studies of psychedelic media & culture has reliably demonstrated that scientific literacy is lower for psychedelic people on average (even if not directly - the authors probably can't ethically call white psychedelic users uneducated). Even if this is a sub-culture (the ultra spiritual bypassing anti-vax hippy characterization), it still shifts the overall cultural distribution towards the unscientific prejudices of this sub-group. I'm happy to be kind and tolerant of people's views that aren't a threat to others' wellbeing. But the point of this post is to speak out about the non-evidence-based cultures that produce social harm. Why would I be tolerant of discriminatory cultures? If we want a true psychedelic renaissance society we have to engage in psychedelic activism & justice. Psychedelic cheer-leading is not sufficient to call ourselves a renaissance society. I'm not just gonna stand by while psychedelic therapy patients are getting sexually assaulted, Indigenous histories are being erased, venture capitalists are selling a cure to the problems they've created through stratifying the social order & mainstreaming a psychedelic culture that benefits some at the expense of others, etc. Obviously the issues of white supremacy are ubiquitous, but they also congregate around psychedelic cultures given the white-dominant medical framework and appropriation of psychedelics from Indigenous peoples, historically and currently. At the end of the day, I think it's far more important to share a voice that contradicts the white status quo than to say "sure but this effect is everywhere"; tying apart the nuances is key and there's already an over-abundance of perspectives that don't seek to understand the interactions between race, substance use, structure, and various other social factors; we prefer to take culture for granted which more often than not stems from our privilege of not being afflicted by the harms of these cultures. In sum, where you seem to imply that my post expects too much, presumably because psychedelic cultures are no different from the rest of people regarding some of these points, my argument is that I am actually holding psychedelic culture to an equal expectation given that psychedelic culture has plenty of evidence (which I'll include below) suggesting it actually disproportionately contributes to the points I made in my OP. Here's some interesting reads by experts in the field that generally support my argument: Culture, Context, and Community in Contemporary Psychedelic Research: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/80 Decolonizing Psychedelics: https://chacruna.net/decolonizi Addressing Power and Privilege in Psychedelic Medicine:: https://chacruna.net/blinded-by Monnica Williams' List of Publications (including the intersection of race & psychedelics): https://monnicawilliams.com/pub Psymposia's various articles & podcast on psychedelic capitalism, culture, surveillance, etc.: https://www.psymposia.com/ Thanks for your great insight!
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/14/23 11:53 AM)
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Registered: 04/02/14 Posts: 2,182 Last seen: 37 minutes, 6 seconds |
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Thanks for writing this Rhizomorph! Brilliant thread
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Registered: 06/02/17 Posts: 1,623 |
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Why are these issues disproportional in the psychedelic community, is there research done on this? Does psychedelic use lead to these things being more prevalent among users, or are certain personality types more attracted to the use of psychedelics?
A culture is dominant because it works for most people, I cannot envisage a situation where every culture has an equal footing and there is parity. Maybe one day we will all revert to a hunter-gatherer economy, or all speak Mandarin, who knows. Cultures and are interwoven with each other, are dynamic and constantly evolving to meet present needs, fashions come and go... Also, why would you hold psychedelic people to the same standards as the wider community? If psychedelic people are representative of the community at large, ok, maybe that expectation is a valid one. But if the psychedelic community is overrepresented in the areas of lower education standards, lower socio-economic status, dysfunctional family backgrounds, greater mental health problems including illusions of grandeur and delusional thinking, greater risk taking and greater criminality etc... Then what?
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Sign up to this group and see what they have to say about psychedelic culture: https://groups.google.com/g/map Research Abuses Against People of Colour in Psychedelic Research: https://www.monnicawilliams.com This article discusses the various cultural issues pertaining to psychedelics including cultural appropriation: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/ The Psychedelic Renaissance and the Limitations of the White-Dominant Medical Framework: https://www.monnicawilliams.com There are many more articles like these of course. I already shared that psychedelics promote activity in the locus coeruleus (associated with suggestiveness to new information), and there's plenty of research showing that psychedelics make people more suggestible by increasing trait openness (read up on the Big 5 personality traits). The relationship between psychedelics and openness is bidirectional - you're free to search this information up yourself though as I've already included more than sufficient research to back my claims I'd argue Quote: You're basically suggesting the Davis Moore thesis, which is outdated & heavily criticized. functional/structuralist theories of the sort you describe simply don't have the predictive capacity to explain the sheer extent of global inequality. Sure, perfect cultural equality is over-idealistic, but that's not the point of striving for cultural equality. The structuralist view of cultural inequality as functional for the dominant group doesn't explain why human rights violations occur and doesn't offer any solution to serious offenses of these human rights. The functional view of dominance maintains relations of human rights exploitation at a global scale. The question many philosophers & sociologists of the past asked in responded to Davis Moore's hypothesis was "sure inequality may just be an inherent part of life, but why does it need to be so severe? why does there need to be so much of it? What do we do about all the people being victimized and brutalized as a result of this type of inequality?". It is insufficient to just call inequality functional and call it a day; it is overly-simplistic and doesn't reduce any real-world social problems. I can assure you that the idea that the dominant culture works for most people simply is not true. It works for most people in a given social class, geography, or status. The majority of the world is Asian yet the dominant culture is Eurocentric, for example. The same goes for the majority of wealth, cultural production, etc. The global north is actually a small minority who disproportionately controls cultural production. You asked me to provide research, so I will ask you to do the same: where are you getting the information that the dominant culture achieves social utility? I sure hope it isn't the dominant culture itself (for obvious reasons )I trust the cultural & social theorists on this one. They are very cognizant of the interactional nature of culture that you point out, yet none of them believe the dominant culture is fair, functional, or even effectively utilitarian as you suggest (whereas utilitarianism has its own problems, even if cultural inequality did achieve social utility, which it does not). Quote: Then they are still expected to be a morally good person. I can empathize with the mental health problems of an individual while also condemning their immoral cultural practices ya know. We shouldn't become tolerant of abusive cultures that reproduce mental illness disproportionately for society's most vulnerable groups just because the people that exercise these cultures are also mentally ill. This creates a viscious cycle of lacking accountability where anyone who does wrong can just chalk it up to their own hardships. I hold the psychedelic community to the same standard because I expect everyone, regardless of class or status, to be a good person by not participating in some seriously awful cultures. I'm not just going to give someone a pass for promoting Nazism because they have a diagnosis of depression for example. They're still an asshole. As a training therapist, if this type of individual wants my empathy, I'm happy to be empathetic in discussions about their depression. My empathy has no place in their support of Nazism though; I expect them to change this belief. Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/22 11:24 PM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Thank you Bardy! Glad you appreciate it! -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
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Registered: 06/02/17 Posts: 1,623 |
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I'm not interested enough to want to sign up to other groups but thought I would challenge your assumptions and perspectives.
One thing I am constantly reminded of is if we expect a certain standard of others, are we also applying those same standards to ourselves? Are we not also unwittingly supporting oppressive, destructive practices (and corporations and governments) through the choices we make each day? From the clothes we wear to the food we eat and the electronic devices we use? How about the electricity we consume and the coal that produces it? Even if we decide on a vegetarian or even a vegan diet, being aware of the fact that rainforests in the Amazon are being bulldozed in order to grow soy should give us pause for thought. I am not a sociologist and know nothing about that discipline or about Davis Moore. My take on why things are the way they are comes from a evolutionary biology angle.The myriad of life forms that exists on this planet is due of the interplay of many factors but ultimately species continue to exist because they have traits that are useful and allow their survival. Whether that concept is easily translated to the social and cultural side of things I cannot say and have no expertise in. I have not been on this forum as long as some old-time members but I've hung around long enough to know that hardly anyone changes their beliefs as a result of interactions on here. It is almost like an echo chamber at times, with little sub-groups forming and where all sorts of weird shit is entertained if not embraced. For me personally, I'm kinda perplexed how a shroom user could be a supporter of Trump, in my world that would seem diametrically opposed lol.
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 2 days, 7 hours |
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Quotes from the OP:
Quote: Do you have anything to back that assertion up? Quote: Again, some examples of what/who you are talking about here would help here to clarify things. Quote: Do all cultures not appropriate aspects of other cultures into their own especially when the intention is to make a given product (in this case an Ayahuasca ceremony) seem more exotic and mysterious? Have the indigenous people not appropriated certain aspects of western culture? And isn't that just the inevitable consequence of one culture coming into contact with a different one? Why do you think that kind of 'cultural appropriation' is a bad thing (surely not white supremacist?) as opposed to an 'imitation is the best form of flattery' kind of compliment? Are these people not embracing/celebrating the indigenous culture? Does my holding an ayahuasca ceremony in my own country borrowing symbols and rituals that I have learned from a shaman in the Amazon really do that Shaman and his community any harm? Or are we just -neoliberally- designating one group as victim to legitimize a morally superior condemnation and attack upon their imagined oppressors (sinister white supremacists among the psychedelic community)? Quote: But you cannot copyright a mushroom ceremony can you? It's rather like saying I taught that bastard how to drive a car, and he went home and taught all his mates how to do it too. White supremacist prick! Quote: But is it not implicit in this very thread, that in pointing all these things out that people in the psychedelic movement (if such a thing even really exists) have not realized about themselves, you yourself -a member of that movement- have transcended them all, and are therefore more enlightened, humble and self-aware than everyone else? Quote: Magical and bizarre thinking kinda just goes with the territory taking psychedelics though mate. Though I'd argue anyone who believes the nonsense in the mainstream media (especially woke Neoliberals) are also delegitimized through their association with bizzare ideologies/beliefs and conspiracies. It is certainly not the psychedelic movement that we need to worry about IMO. I have never seen the psychedelic movement rampaging through American cities like Mao's red Guards, destroying things and hurting innocent people! I'm just wondering if this a genuine concern about white supremacy in the psychedelic community (which is a real reach) or just another attempt to inject divisive/toxic Neoliberal ideology into the discourse here on the shroomery? -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown Edited by wolf8312 (04/28/22 04:50 AM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Something I've learned is that being intellectually honest means making a commitment to perpetual/endless reflexive learning (& unlearning; such as false ideologies & cultures we were socialized into). I think the question you are raising about it being less categorical and more quantitative is valid. But my point is that we should definitely be drawing some lines where human rights and wellbeing are concerned lest it become a slippery slope into grand narratives regarding subjectivity. What I appreciate about critical theory in sociology is that reflexivity is baked into the theory itself; most critical theories of culture are very transparent about, and thoroughly discuss the ways their critical theory of cultural production and power is itself an exercise of cultural production and power. Yet, this should not discount the theory; if anything this is what makes critical theory so appealing: it might just be one of the most self-aware cultures that exists so resisting cultural bias is theoretically less likely (sociology asks not only what is under the microscope, but also, how does the social positionality & background of the individual looking through the microscope, affect the interpretation of what is seen? In the social world, these variables account for a lot of variance). Besides the point of my OP is really just to spread awareness. There are material limitations to the clothes, food, and energy we consume. Relative to these practices, we have far more autonomy over whether or not we engage in problematic cultures. If it makes any difference to you, I personally try to engage as ethically and cognizant as possible about the material choices I make day-to-day, and try to limit the negative impact of these choices. Yet, I also have to be easy on myself as I can't escape capitalism ultimately my OP is more about culture, which we have more control over than material impacts we make (and in my mind culture sits at the heart of whether or not we resist or maintain capitalism).Quote: Again, I'm talking about culture, not actions undertaken to achieve material needs. But, some food for thought: the vast majority of soy (I believe 80%+) is fed to livestock with a calorie conversion of something like 17 plant-based calories to 1 meat-based calorie, so extremely inefficient. So, technically non-vegan diets account for significantly more land being bulldozed and soy production. But this is off topic: I'm not trying to argue for or against veganism here of course as there's wayyy more to unpack in that conversation (so many people just can't access this type of diet, especially racial minorities, so the intersection with capitalism is paramount). Lets stick to the topic of the thread.... Quote: It does not translate to the social or cultural side of things according to most experts I'm familiar with as humans did not evolve in globalized post-industrial societies. Sure, we can explain more basic psychological phenomena in terms of evolutionary function, but then why have we not adapted to obesity, cancer, depression, etc. Functionalism may be able to explain why humans formed in-group biases during tribalistic and agrarian societies, but the exponential growth of industrialism & globalization means we have only had a few thousand if not hundred years to "adapt" to contemporary society. The "reptillian brain", if you're familiar with this concept (the emotional centres of the mid- and hind-brain that are reactionary and uncritical) still shapes most of our social interactions as a result. Durkheim's notion of anomie & his analysis of organic vs. mechanical social solidarity in traditional vs. modern societies may help to contextualize this. Georg Simmel's Metropolis is also a great read. And of course, much of psychology is consistent with these theories given how humans still have the outdated evolutionary mechanisms that would be adaptive in traditional societies but manifest as chronic psychological or physical health conditions (obesity, cancer, heart disease) in today's society. Culture is no different. Quote: I wholeheartedly agree. It sounds contradictory which is why I've spent some of the past few years in academia trying to understand psychedelics from not just my primary psychological focus, but my peripheral focus in sociology, culture, law, etc. There's so many bogus ideas surrounding psychedelics which is why I think it's super important to talk about psychedelic culture from a critical sociological lens (or at least a critical lens more generally) I don't really expect to change anyone's mind though in all honesty. I think I just enjoy writing about this stuff as it is reflexive and consolidates my learning about these topics ![]() Also I like hearing from users who say they learned something from my post or appreciate the work I put into it
Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/22 11:34 PM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: 1. Read some of Monnica Williams' work: https://monnicawilliams.com/pub Maybe I'll have time to dig into it to find something more specific at a later point. 2. On the point of cultural appropriation, I shared some resources in response to another user who mentioned similar things about it. The power dynamics (e.g., neocolonial policies) shape how cultural appropriation results in harms and the harms were describes in an article I shared. I never said anything about copyrighting the mushroom itself. There are specific cultural practices that surround the mushroom. Quote: I think I've thoroughly addressed my own reflexivity throughout this thread multiple times now. Nowhere have I claimed to be perfect and the whole point of this thread is to encourage meta-examination. Myself, the Shroomery, the cultures you and I engage in, it is all fair game. ![]() Quote: I'm aware. Nothing about this statement suggests anything about the veracity of my criticisms. Just cause something is a fact doesn't mean we should take it for granted. Neoliberalism kinda just goes with the territory of social media/the mainstream... Doesn't make it right Quote: You're missing the point - I'm not saying that the psychedelic movement it some massive threat. Just that there are some issues within it that are disproportional that are worth considering. But honestly I don't feel I really have the energy to explain further at the moment. Sorry for my half-assed response. I just feel like I'm starting to repeat myself in this thread is all. I appreciate your engagement with the material though!
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
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shoulda died already Registered: 11/03/12 Posts: 36,294 |
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Quote: None of this is exclusive to psychedelics. If none of it is exclusive, the true context isn't psychedelics. You're complaining about people and the perception of exclusivity. You don't have to like what people do, and no one has a monopoly on the behaviour of others. ![]() Basically - if you don't like it, don't look. As much as I love the psychedelic community, there tends to be a lack of self awareness.
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Registered: 06/02/17 Posts: 1,623 |
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I learned things from your posts and I also appreciate the time and consideration you put into them. And I also agree with the main thrust of your argument, and your concerns about the psychedelic community.
I like to play Devil's Advocate sometimes and enjoy challenging accepted wisdoms. For me, one thing that comes up often is how we decide what is good and what is bad, it can seem rather subjective sometimes and at other times context is everything. What might be good now can turn bad, or what we consider as bad might actually be good in disguise? A case in point. We might see obesity as a bad thing but obesity is a result of biological mechanisms and adaptations that have helped humanity through aeons when food resources are scarce. The conversion of excess calories into fat during times of plenty, and the conversion of fat back to energy during lean times have ensured that human societies thrived regardless of what the seasons provide. Depression... some say that this is linked to high creativity and some of the most accomplished people who have walked this Earth have been depressed. Cancer I'm not sure about, but it has been around for a long time as evidenced in reports of bone cancer found in dinosaur bones. There is a lot that is still not known about cancer but basically it happens when programmed cell death does not go to plan and cells continue to divide and multiply. Is there an evolutionary advantage for the existence of cancer? I don't know but I had a quick search on Google and found this: https://www.scientificamerican. Basically, good and bad are kinda interchangeable sometimes. If only there were a Universal Code of Ethics or something like that... Capitalism I'm in two minds about. Money is a great incentive for getting things done and money also makes many things possible. Perhaps it comes down to greed or power inequalities rather than capitalism per se. I don't know, I still think that the majority of us who have access to the internet are elites and privileged. The truly disempowered have no such luxury and are surviving hand to mouth on a daily basis, day in day out. But if they have no mortgage to service, no road rage to deal with, no toxic masculinity to put up with or office politics to negotiate, maybe they are the ones that are empowered and the rest of us are the ones who are really suffering?
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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I agree that the biological mechanisms underpinning obesity and depression have an evolutionary basis. My point is that they have become widespread and the ways they are regulated have a much greater emphasis on modern cultures and access to medicine (which has a cultural component given the cultural barriers to access).
Technically it's all evolutionary, but many of the positive adaptational changes of evolution have become negative because of the social context, so the social context explains as much if not more of the variance in human cultural development than the positive/functional adaptational changes. Anyways my point was not at all to say the sharp increase in cancer or obesity is objectively cultural. I was just providing an example of how post-industrialism has changed trends that prior evolutionary adaptations have not fully accounted for. Given this fact, we can elaborate further on culture. I agree with your sentiments towards capitalism. I do think pure neoliberalism contradicts itself and I definitely think there needs to be some restrictions -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Ya don't need to quote my entire OP dude...
Also I already provided justification for why these issues are disproportional for psychedelic culture in an earlier comment. So although exclusive is not the right word as it implies a categorical yes/no characterization, it is more "exclusive" to psychedelic culture in terms of a quantitative continuum. We can't act like some cultures don't intersect more or less with certain cultures comparatively. I even exemplified this by describing the neurochemical underpinnings for why psychedelic people engage more in pseudoscience.
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/28/22 03:43 PM)
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Registered: 06/02/17 Posts: 1,623 |
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It is heartening how a number of the world's ultra rich have decided to give away the vast majority of their wealth. In a way, power and wealth are not really things to desire because with power and money comes great responsibility. I wouldn't want that sort of responsibility not to mention having to be constantly on guard to protect oneself from harm. Like I said before, good and bad are kinda subjective and it all depends on one's frame of reference. Ultimately everyone goes through hardships, everyone suffers, everyone experiences fear, loss and grief. There is a bit of a Tall Poppy Syndrome when it comes to the rich and powerful I think, driven by our envy of them and causing plain old jealousy.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Agreed!! It blows my mind that capitalism is still taken for granted as the best system by so many people. I'm not saying it doesn't have its merits (when combined with some level of regulation) but neoliberalism/free market capitalism (although not really "free" in the social sense haha) is certainly something most people see as the norm. Even those who do oppose capitalism often support the social assemblages by reducing social conflict to capitalism despite the fact that colonialism, racism, sexism, etc. are all very profitable and likewise reproduce these constructs dialectically; thus the interactional assemblage.
I think it was Herbert Marcuse that said under capitalism the average person is a "One Dimensional Man" in that they believe they have have their needs met (coke vs. pepsi; post-industrial job booms, etc. providing the illusion of autonomy) but this choice is really one-dimensional and ignores alternative ideologies. Some people (I.e., idiots who don't know what capitalism or socialism are) might call Marcuse a communist but he also heavily criticized the Communist Party & USSR so I would say he is fairly objective As I said before: culture is taken for granted. Capitalism may be an economic system but for it to function it has to be regarded as legitimate by the dominant culture. The culture of capitalism being legit is largely unquestioned and meta-narratives about the West liberating the rest of the world from communism and underdevelopment (I.e., the crusade of liberal democracy) has largely fed into the lack of American/Western criticality; Americans for example seem to be incredibly unaware of how this crusade is driven by nationalistic interests, especially for upper class white men. For how much educational and intellectual prowess the West claims, they have a phenomenal lack of self awareness of just how problematic and exploitative their dominant politics really are; probably because critical educational programs challenge the status quo and thus receive less funding. -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (04/30/22 09:00 PM)
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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"the West claims, they have a phenomenal lack of self awareness of just how problematic and exploitative their dominant politics really are"
They're VERY aware. They just don't give one single flying FUCK about it and praise doing so. ![]() ![]()
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OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,470 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
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Capitalism sucks, but it absolutely is the best we have so far. Someday, a better system will be invented.
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Learning Registered: 06/23/22 Posts: 2,423 Loc: Colorado Last seen: 2 months, 22 days |
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I think this should be mandatory reading for anyone remotely interested in psychedelics. Thank you for writing and posting this. I could comment in more detail on specifics, but I'll be merciful and just keep it largely to this one quote:
"I've met far too many psychedelic-minded people who are completely convinced of their enlightenment, self-awareness, and humility, despite being complete assholes. There is an implicit assumption that psychedelics make people more altruistic and compassionate. Occasionally (and usually only when the set & setting is tailored to produce such results) this occurs, but outside these controlled settings, psychedelics just as often reinforce egocentricity." This in particular stood out for me as a Zen priest and teacher. There are much the same issues with Zen practice (indeed most spiritual practice probably), which makes me wonder if the same kind of thing tends to happen with the psychedelic community, especially when money and perceived power enter the equation, which is happening now with so many corporate scumbags entering the scene. I'm a beginner when it comes to growing, not an expert and don't claim any expertise in either that, or psychedelics overall, but I do see much the same pattern as I do happening in some Zen centers. Such things attract some who want to be special (with the irony of course that we are all special, just not in the way that we tend to think we are), without doing any real work on themselves, often at others expense somehow (they have a habit of punching down), to get attention, to stand out and get some kind of unearned respect. In other words narcissistic types, or borderline narcissists, and those who have a deep, black hole of experiencing themselves as somehow insufficient and as just nothing of consequence. Instead of working on that honestly and with some humility, these types will try to cover it all up with bullshit and pretend that the opposite is true - that they are really really accomplished, enlightened, holy people. Such individuals would just be mildly irritating if they weren't also sometimes dangerous. They're the ones who get promoted upwards in some places, when they're found to be shall we say less than ethical. They tend to be good at self promotion and make it seem perfectly normal to charge steeply for their 'empathy' and 'teaching.' And yes, there are more than a few Zen teachers who fit this category. One I came across recently is notorious as a trademark troll in the video game industry. Now he's scamming the gullible as a Zen teacher who of course can talk at length about how enlightened he is and how holy. In Buddhism we call much of this and of what you wrote about 'spiritual materialism.' This includes the lack of understanding of systemic issues. For example of the oppression that is endemic in much of our economic, political and so called justice systems. Then there is the cultural appropriation and the twisting of what is essentially pointing at how the small ego self doesn't have to always be in control, to mimicking surrender of ego. Instead of seeing how I and you and that bird and this tree are so ordinary that they are extraordinary, in the true sense, the narcissistic, ill informed and lazily inadequate, pervert the message into being about them being special.These are also the grifters, the influencers talking bullshit, the ones who try to gatekeep psychedelics to only the priesthood of corporations, those who shamelessly hype anything, be it psychedelics or Zen practice as some sort of magic bullet. Also those who attempt to gatekeep, to keep this to only the medical and psychiatric professions. And lastly, the 'plastic shamans,' often white boys and girls who spend a few weeks or months in Peru, or LA, or do some crappy online course, and are suddenly enlightened teachers and spirit guides and have no idea of the cultures they are appropriating or what a real shaman, priest or medicine man or woman does. So, this then is my long winded way of saying bravo for what you wrote, of the potentially dangerous, or confused types that it points to, and for saying it so clearly that it resonated deeply for me. And, again, this should be mandatory reading for just about anyone interested in psychedelics. Thank you. Edited by johnukguy (11/30/22 05:31 AM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Thank you as well. Truly. I appreciate the way you write about these topics
![]() As I read your comment, I started thinking about how narcissistic people tend to be attracted to these communities and blam, you mentioned it just after I was thinking about it. I think it was the book "Psychedelic Justice: Towards a Diverse and Equitable Psychedelic Culture" that originally introduced me to this phenomenon in the ayahuasca community. I think both Zen/spiritualities - especially spiritualities deemed esoteric & idealized in western societies - and psychedelic cultures share a certain magical aura that attracts these people. When someone can claim a uniquely individual access to the mystical or divine, such that psychedelics or spiritual practice can theoretically provide, they can leverage their claimed access to exploit others. As you say, it can have dangerous consequences, especially because these experiences attract disproportional vulnerable people (e.g., those with mental illness or those seeking spiritual salvation from pain); psychedelics also make people inherently vulnerable as they impair people's judgment severely. I think it was Huxley who called this feeling of unique & exclusionary knowledge the noetic quality. This quality may describe why people claim a guru/saint-type status and is even supported by neuroimaging research that has demonstrated how the locus coeruleus, an area in the brainstem responsible for novelty detection, is activated under the influence of psychedelics. The best advice I try to give people first entering the psychedelic scene is to avoid idealizing psychedelics, gurus, shamans, cultural ideas within the psychedelic & spiritual community etc. In short, regard psychedelics and spirituality with a high degree of scrutiny. Of course, mentors can be an immensely valuable tool, but to do serious spiritual or psychedelic work, we need to take some level of personal responsibility by vetting our mentors Love the discussion & thank you for your thorough engagement. The psychedelic community desperately needs more discussion around cultural issues within psychedelia as too often harmful cultures are taken for granted. I highly recommend this book as a necessary reading as well -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/14/23 12:05 PM)
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modboy Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 32,256 Loc: where? |
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i thought this was gonna be a hate post so i didnt read it but i just did and i agree with almost everything you said in the OP
-------------------- Making Liquid Culture : Go insane with LC Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Perhaps I should soften the title haha.
Appreciate the positive feedback MB!
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
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3X Ban Lotto Champion Registered: 03/20/14 Posts: 11,225 Loc: daterapeville,USA Last seen: 1 hour, 24 minutes |
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Quote: Too much to agree with in the OP. But this soooo fucking much. Holy shit I just want to punch these douchy assholes so hard.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,470 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
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I don't see how being an asshole is inconsistent with being enlightened, self-aware, or humble.
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3X Ban Lotto Champion Registered: 03/20/14 Posts: 11,225 Loc: daterapeville,USA Last seen: 1 hour, 24 minutes |
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It's not.
It sill makes me want to punch them. As I am enlightened, self-aware, humble and a raging asshole
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Highentist Registered: 08/29/22 Posts: 874 Last seen: 4 months, 19 days |
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Quote: You do understand that everyone in this forum pays more of a percentage of our earnings in taxes than 99% of the rich and powerful, right? You should also be aware that they become rich and powerful, generally not by being nice and paying employees very well, correct? There are some exceptions to that, like Mark Cuban, and Bill Gates, but they are the outliers, not the common billionaires. You might think "That Patagonia guy gave away all his money", well, actually he moved it into a trust controlled by his family that can be used for political influence while still retaining control of the company. In doing so he avoided $700 million in taxes on the $3 billion his company is worth, and still has control of everything. So he was dodging taxes, and playing it off as philanthropy. https://www.washingtontimes.com Billionaires are almost entirely evil scum sucking up all the money that their employees deserve. An honest person doesn't become a billionaire, it's not selflessness and charity that creates billionaires. It's people doing tons of work and the guy at the tops greed preventing them from being compensated justly for their efforts. -------------------- If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start. First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs. Agar is easy, just do it. Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide Growing APE or PE? P9 pseudo casing tek Edited by Excess Taters (12/01/22 05:18 PM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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I don't even have a problem with disproportional income assuming disporoportional work is being done.
But regardless of credentials, I believe there are only so many hours in the day, so much physical, emotional, or mental labour a person is capable of, and the difference in capacity between the hardest worker in the world and the majority of entry level workers cannot be more than, let's say figuratively/conservatively, 5x as hard. Therefore, there should be no reason someone makes more than 5x as much money (or whatever relative amount proportional to their working capacity) as the next person. Billionaires should not exist. And this entire criticism of billionaires still assumes capitalist logic (I.e., hierarchies of economic control & meritocracy). I could probably write a whole essay on the myths of meritocracy, but I will entertain the idea just to show that the neoliberal argument fails even if meritocracy is assumed. We desperately need a baseline level of economic restrictions protecting the basic human rights of entry level workers. Problem is guaranteeing a livable income and access to healthcare in itself may challenge the very existence of billionaires... An international minimum wage pegged to the value of each local currency would also help to resist the globalization of purist neoliberal agendas such as the way economic mobilization (to countries with lower minimum wages) is leveraged above developing/peripheral countries in global supply chains. They call it the "race to the bottom"; competing for lower wages so developed/wealthy nations will bring their business for cheap labour. I assure you that Bill Gates' economic ventures are very much complicit in these predatory practices. -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (03/14/23 12:11 PM)
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OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,470 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
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Quote: This is almost certainly false
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Semper Fidelis Registered: 01/11/05 Posts: 7,459 Loc: Harmless (Mostly) Last seen: 2 hours, 43 minutes |
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OP let's face it, the people and heritage of most of the psychedelic wherewithal have given it a bad name. All the way down to co opting the natives. Stamets now frowns on people that don't use it as "true medicine". Although a decent fellow, get the fuck outa here with the elitism.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Highentist Registered: 08/29/22 Posts: 874 Last seen: 4 months, 19 days |
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Quote: The only way it is false is if I'm talking about normal millionaires, and in retrospect I realize that I should have been clearer, I was referring to billionaires, as that's what the guy I was responding to was talking about. For billionaires, the amount of money they gain is gained via stocks, and it's only realized via selling stocks. So by creating amazing companies and having tons of stock, the better the company does the more money they gain via their stock. This is unrealized until they decide to sell, so they have unrealized profits that are absolutely insane. I'm not knocking this tax law, when investing if you just taxed everyone whenever their stock increased compared to where it was last year, when a stock collapses someone might be completely broke and have paid tons of taxes on stock they've actually lost money on. With that said, as an example "According to Forbes, those 25 people saw their worth rise a collective $401 billion from 2014 to 2018. They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That’s a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%." Most of that value is in unrealized gains on their stocks, and legally they're not dodging the law by not selling their stocks, and I've already explained why this law is generally good. I am saying that being able to do that gives them a way to avoid paying as much taxes as we do, as most of their wealth isn't derived from work, but from stock gains. Since they don't have to pay tax on that wealth until they sell the stock, they may gain $2 billion in profit one year and pay $60 million in taxes. So it does depend on how you look at it. If you're just saying "Via the law, do they pay more in taxes as a percentage on their earned income", then yeah, you're correct. If you're considering how much their wealth increases every year compared to how much they pay in taxes, it's significantly less than the average worker. -------------------- If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start. First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs. Agar is easy, just do it. Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide Growing APE or PE? P9 pseudo casing tek Edited by Excess Taters (12/01/22 06:56 PM)
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OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,470 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
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You didn't say anything about the average worker, though. You said every single person in this forum.
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Highentist Registered: 08/29/22 Posts: 874 Last seen: 4 months, 19 days |
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Quote: Pedantic but correct. Are you a bureaucrat? You remind me of Hermes Conrad from Futurama. -------------------- If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start. First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs. Agar is easy, just do it. Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide Growing APE or PE? P9 pseudo casing tek
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OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,470 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
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Calling out hyperbolic rhetoric isn't pedantic. I'm trying to help you up your skills, sir.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Wholeheartedly agree. Although I do wonder what Stamets means by a "true medicine" as this sounds somewhat ambiguous but I'm not familiar with the specific quote/context you're speaking of... But yeah the ghost of Timothy Leary still lurks in the shadows which has scared those in power into restricting access to psychedelics to only the most privileged in society; those (unfairly) deemed the best, most competent minds - the white scientists, policy makers, doctors, etc. Indigenous, mentally ill, and marginalized communities are perpetually left out because they don't fit within the ideals of western society and still face heavy stigma. Safety is paramount, but the harms of excluding particular groups are far more considerable, especially when psychedelics have the potential to either treat or reproduce racial trauma depending on whether the psychedelic community learns cultural competence & adopts social justice allyship. Also, ya know, psychedelics are Indigenous technologies and yet white people claim ownership... Reciprocity within the psychedelic community and the medical system at large is severely lacking
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (12/02/22 01:46 AM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Although I don't disagree with you, I do think that we all may seek to benefit from asking permission or offering criticism in a softer way. I think failing to acknowledge the overarching meaning by fixating on said hyperbolic rhetoric can come across (unintentionally) as pedantic or even inconsiderate as it shifts the attention away from what the writer cares about most: the principle idea. Tuning into the affective context (although challenging via online communication) helps to decide whether said criticism is relevant, socially appropriate, or needed. I.e., there's a time and place ![]() Feel free to disagree though, I just don't want this thread to become derailed into arguing over the meaning of meaning is all. We all have our own agenda's, but admittedly mine is to apply critical social theory to psychedelic culture to raise awareness and reduce the various harms that the psychedelic community has witnessed; cultural harm reduction per say. Fixating on a specific sentence that perhaps erroneously spoke in absolutes just doesn't seem to be too relevant to this goal ![]() When others speak in absolutes I think it can be helpful for us to recognize the likely frustration they may be experiencing under a culture, system, etc. before we criticize the language they used. Economic & political discussions relate directly to the complex lived experiences of individuals with unique pain, desires, etc. and that is reflected through the ways we express black and white thinking. Assuming they are not actively complicit in oppressing others (or contributing to cultures which do so) through this black and white thinking, I argue we should have some tolerance & patience with these types of statements. -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (12/02/22 01:44 AM)
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OTD God-King Registered: 08/16/03 Posts: 65,470 Loc: Uncanny Valley |
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As you may or may not know, this is a debate forum. Dishonest and/or fallacious tactics are regularly called out in here. It is, after all, an important function of debate to separate the wheat from the chaff. Whatever soft touch and/or hand-holding you might prefer, you have posted in a political discussion forum. This is not the pub, nor is it psychedelic experiences. As such, you and other posters should expect your posts to be held to the standard of this forum.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: I never disacknowledged these facts. In fact, I would argue my comment is very consistent with everything you've said. If anything, I'm providing the same criticial inquiry about the communication skills you yourself mentioned; we're equally complicit. ![]() I just don't see the use of criticizing someone's unique speech and then subsequently leveraging your subjective idea of what speech should look like when I do the same to you; it's all the same game but mate, you started it. Thus, you bear the responsibility of the precendent set by said criticism when it is directed back at you. Besides, to speak in a persuasive/effective manner is to recognize that the "hand holding" as you call it (which demonstrates an obvious prejudice) is in fact quite necessary as humans rarely change their views from type 2/cognitive argumentation (see the dual process model of thinking). It is through type 1 thinking/intuitive & implicit thinking that people think. Likewise, people rarely if ever change their views when they feel defensive. There's plenty of social psychology to back this up. So, to not only debate in a socially effective manner, but also to develop your social intelligence skills, is to appeal to the affective/sentimental flow of your audience. lest we become our own echo chambers without a caring audience who feels connected to our ideas, cognitively, emotionally, etc. There is perhaps a creative capacity or artistic way we can utilize our words to get across what we mean while maintaining a collaborative spirit. Otherwise, we are likely to feel, and really be, unheard as we come across as disgruntled, cold, and emotionally unattached. Again, coming across as emotionally attuned to the conversation is vital for persuasive debate. My question for you is, which type of thinking do you rely more on? But hey, if you think the art of effective communication is handholding, I won't try to change your mind; I respect your autonomy to come up with your own interpersonal style, whether it makes sense to me or not ![]() Contrary to your implications, I'm more than okay with the discussion at hand and the way it is being had (in fact I quite enjoy this conversation ). I'm going to go do some personal reflection and I encourage you to do the same. We could both use some self-awareness Appreciate the critical discourse!
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (12/08/22 10:51 AM)
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Learning Registered: 06/23/22 Posts: 2,423 Loc: Colorado Last seen: 2 months, 22 days |
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Quote: Completely agree and thank you for the book recommendation. -------------------- “Evey Hammond: Who are you? V: Who? Who is but the form following the function of what and what I am is a man in a mask. Evey Hammond: Well I can see that. V: Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is”
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I Am 'They' Registered: 10/24/09 Posts: 21,590 Loc: Dallas with all Last seen: 7 months, 6 hours |
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Honestly, white supremacy?
Give me a fucking break.
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modboy Registered: 04/24/05 Posts: 32,256 Loc: where? |
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![]() my psychic abilities tell me you are most likely a white male obsessed with hilary. -------------------- Making Liquid Culture : Go insane with LC Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
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I Am 'They' Registered: 10/24/09 Posts: 21,590 Loc: Dallas with all Last seen: 7 months, 6 hours |
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Is there something wrong being a white male?
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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HA! Ended up in big D eh? Try to enjoy and not get shot on the hwy or around town.
![]() Deep Ellum used to be VERY cool and fun. Try "Hook Line and Sinker" over there off Lemmon in the oak lawn/highland park area. Also "Lucky's". "Mario's" is a great salvadoran and tex-mex place. "Cafe Brazil" has some of the best chicken and spinach crepes ever. Tex mex is one of my fave foods of all time and it just rocks in the DFW area. BBQ is awesome in Texas too. Take a trip and go to the museums in FT WT. The Modern in Dallas is good but it seems like the ones in FT WT are a bit better.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Brilliant, well thought out response demonstrating clear critical thinking skills around a complex topic. Bravo! ![]() Try again with a positive/collaborate attitude that demonstrates you're eager to both share and listen and maybe we can have a fruitful conversation that doesn't waste both our time. A tolerance for differing perspectives & uncertainty goes a long way ![]() Or we can shut off our prefrontal cortex and rely on the subcortical areas of the brain (the less critical areas) by relying on heuristics (simplifications) and prejudices as your comment demonstrates. Personally, I'd rather we both have some pride in our ability to use our brains effectively, even if it takes actual work to do so ![]() Also Quote:
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
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Pennywise Registered: 10/01/12 Posts: 2,356 Last seen: 2 days, 7 hours |
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Quote: Nah! White supremacy 'give me a fucking break' is about right to be fair! As lurking beneath all the fine talk about tolerance what you are really doing is attempting to inject the same divisive and hateful (not to mention absurd) Neomarxist/liberal ideology into the discourse here on the shroomery, as they are trying to push onto our societies and schools/children. An ideology that is a cancer upon western societies, and far from bringing people together, is ripping them apart! There is no white supremacy (or far right/Nazism) in the psychedelic movement! That is absurd... Unless of course -in typical marxist/neoliberal fashion- one simply trivializes and redefines the definition of 'white supremacy' and then goes after anyone who conforms to this new -much much broader- definition. These are, after all, the same tired old tactics of the radical leftists when they will attempt to denounce, run-of-the-mill conservatives (and even traditional leftists) as 'far right' or 'Nazi' simply so they can ban/censor or persecute people they don't like (or who say things they don't like), the irony of such despicable and vindictive behaviour being apparently lost on them! It is not the peace loving peeps in the psychedelic movement that are the problem in our western societies. It is the radical leftists, or rather those that are pushing this radical left ideology onto our societies for their own nefarious reasons. Why not speak out against them? I hope you will help get this world (and forum) back to the imperfect but much saner/more stable traditional left/right western values and stop with all this radical left nonsense. -------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,258 Last seen: 9 hours, 18 minutes |
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White supremacists don't like it when people don't follow them to the right.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Thank you for the more thorough response. I really enjoy the thoughtful discussion
![]() Quote: How is this so with regards to my point about white supremacy that you are criticizing? It is a critique of culture & colonialism. Neomarxists would contend that this culture & the policies that produce it are part of the superstructure; I.e, not directly relevant to social conflict, in the Hegelian dialectic sense. Indeed, critical social theory - and myself - has, for the most part, directly rejected Marxism and neomarxism due to this class reductionism. Likewise, the development of critical social theories in the early-mid 20th century specifically sought to answer the question of why a Marxist revolution never transpired; the emphasis on culture by scholars such as Stuart Hall & the Center for Cultural Studies in Santa Cruz, as well as the Frankfurt school & others, was paramount in addressing this gap. Certainly my point about psychedelic commercialization may fit more closely in a Neomarxist narrative (thus why I specifically acknowledged by bias on that point; it is a bit more subjective I admit), but to stay relevant to your criticism of my point on white supremacy, I believe calling me neomarxist demonstrates a failure to understand what neomarxism is in both contemporary and historical contexts. My critique in no way is class reductionistic as it places heavy emphasis on culture & politics, not just economic relations And to mention liberalism as though it is in any way consistent with my position is even more preposterous considering that John Locke himself wrote about how "savage" & "uncivilized" Indigenous people were as a justification for excluding them from his wonderful "rule of law" (The irony of this rule being that all humans are equal under the law and yet non white people were directly called & designated as non-human politically speaking); the result? colonization & dispossession of Indigenous peoples from their land (private property laws not applying to them, afterall), as well as genocide among other things... Need I go into how neoliberalism is the very cornerstone of capitalism that Marx rejected? Have you studied any political, social, or cultural theory? No offence but your prescription of these terms makes me wonder if you know their relevant history and application to modern political theory & world politics ![]() Quote: Loaded language... Bias/prejudiced? Quote: This is a non-sequitur; you've only really provided your subjective sentiments towards this idea. I have no reason to believe this without an evidence-based response (see some of the articles I shared in the OP for a collection of research & statistics supporting my claims). Quote: This is a worthy consideration, but of course it is not ubiquitous. As such, we must define specifically how and when this occurs. Without defining it on a context-to-context basis, we risk both allowing the term Nazi & white supremacist to be weaponized against valid arguments (your concern) AND valid criticisms of actual Nazism to be dismissed as an attempt to censor; we can't paint it all with one brush, as evidently both occur. It goes both ways, which is why it is irrelevant to point this phenomena out without identifying how specifically I am doing that, which you have not done. Again, I get you have your gripes with the radical left, but how do my arguments fit this bill? Evidence. Quote: I believe I do actively speak out against radical leftism and nothing about my critique either fits the bill of radical leftism nor prevents the critique of radical leftism. I'm not a communist despite what the dominant culture may like to say about critical social theory. This is feeling like a repeat of the guy earlier in this thread who said that modern social theory is just Hegelianism rebranded... I feel like the American/Western social studies curriculum must be ending their social studies lessons at the 19th century or something because these ideas are not historically accurate whatsoever... I encourage you to read through some of the thread history as I've discussed some of these things already; namely, the history of critical social theory. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss & unpack these important topics. Keep being awesome!
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/22 11:47 PM)
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Can everyone reading this thread who wishes to criticize my post please look through the thread history before posting? I welcome all criticism but when I have to repeat myself it inhibits the generation of new ideas and a productive flow of discourse directed towards a teleological resolution.
Posting this in the OP as well. Thank you all! -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/22 10:56 PM)
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doolhoofd.com Registered: 12/22/22 Posts: 353 Loc: Dorsia |
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Quote: Agree. Quote: Agree. Quote: Agree. Quote: Agree. Quote: Agree. Quote: "Only errors exist." - Robert's Axiom "One man's error is another man's data." - Berman's Corollary to Robert's Axiom "Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome." - Britney Spears -------------------- Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?' Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray." Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?' Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray." Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...' Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness." - The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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I'm not familiar with those quotes... Are they talking about statistical error? I'm intrigued...
I'm glad we're on the same page regarding these topics
-------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
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doolhoofd.com Registered: 12/22/22 Posts: 353 Loc: Dorsia |
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Quote: No, just, veeeeeery generally, about the entire planet. Maybe even the entire universe. Quote: And so am I, random stranger from the interweb!
-------------------- Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?' Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray." Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?' Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray." Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...' Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness." - The Big Bang Theory, S07E09
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🐵🙈🙉🙊 Registered: 10/04/21 Posts: 3,380 Last seen: 1 day, 4 hours |
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This thread pisses me off for some reason?
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Registered: 04/02/14 Posts: 2,182 Last seen: 37 minutes, 6 seconds |
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Quote:
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Shadow figure Registered: 10/01/22 Posts: 12 Last seen: 4 months, 15 days |
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Couple things...
I want mushrooms freely available to anybody who wants them for rec, med, etc. Catching a hard buzz is a basic human desire. I don't have much to say about cultural appropriation. It is rude to steal, but knowledge is a human right. What one person knows, another can learn: I'm not Jewish, but I like bagels. I can even make them. Have I appropriated Jewish culture, or have our cultures engaged in a mutually beneficial trade of information? I'm a capitalist, and I have no problem with the fact that everything can be monetized. This is like Karma - it will happen no matter how you feel about it. Clearly, though, this can be more, or less exploitive. I prefer less, but there are people who actually like being exploited (weird, I know, but still true). Being a rube can be fun for a short time, but I, personally, don't enjoy it as a lifestyle. To each their own, though. That's why we have organized religion. What really, really does scare me, though, and needs consideration is the whole "using drugs to manipulate or scam vulnerable people who experience horrible mental pain and are searching, desperately, for relief." Any relief. These people don't need some manipulative narcissist fucking their head, under the guise of some b.s. spiritual healing. -------------------- Terran Biological Research Station - 1 Learning to survive amongst humans in their natural environment.
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Registered: 04/02/14 Posts: 2,182 Last seen: 37 minutes, 6 seconds |
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Yeah I’m not sure I understand the concern about cultural appropriation. It’s a strange concept to me. We’re all mixed race, and all our cultures are a conglomeration of other cultures over time.
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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Quote: Where and how is power being used in this relationship? Is it being used in a way that is harmful, prevents harm/promotes cultural & individual wellbeing & autonomy, or is it neutral? As I discussed before, the harms of cultural appropriation are context dependent; in the article I shared before this depends on whether, for example, misrecognition occurs, which marginalizes legitimate cultural representations in favour of dominant inaccurate representations. cultural autonomy - being dialetically related to politics and the tangible social consequences that subsume them - is objectively characterized by these contexts. Please don't think I'm saying that all types of appropriation are harmful. But we can't act like many forms are not given the way social power is leveraged. You're not the first person in this thread to offer up a form of appropriation that is not harmful as though this somehow suggests other forms of appropriation are not; someone else already asked if learning another language was harmful. Please read the thread history ![]() Quote: Including the commodification of basic human rights including our utmost privacy? (think of big data as it pertains to ensuring the pillars of liberal democracies & the safety of individuals), subsistence needs, etc.? Bear in mind that more than just physical entities are monetized. I'm not sure if this is what you meant by "everything" or not, but nowadays economies are monetizing cultural & knowledge production, electronic data, and overall, non-corporeal forms of social control through decentralized, horizontally integrated global supply chains. A purist neoliberal agenda of the sort you mention is counterproductive in achieving the liberal ideals underpinning the very same ideology (I.e., maximizing freedom). -------------------- Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers
Edited by Rhizomorph (01/10/23 08:59 PM)
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Registered: 06/10/23 Posts: 10 Loc: Nowhere Land Last seen: 12 days, 5 hours |
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I agree with ya, I don't want to see the pharmacutical companies and corporations get their hands on these substances because they are only worried about money and not the well being of the user. Lucky for us, the illegality of entheogens violates the first amendment by means of being an impingement and hindrance on the free excersize of religion, once the right person realizes this they won't be able to keep it for themselves because everyone will have access to it. After reading this though I'm going to do quite a bit more contemplating on how these issues could be solved as well, I've already seen some pretty reasonably good sounding ideas for solutions, you do in fact raise valid concerns. (It violates the first amendment in that way due to 6000 years of documented religious use minimum, which I believe if we could use this fact to our advantage, we could keep it out of the corporations and what not and place direct access to everyone because if everyone already has it then there's really no money to be made from it in the first place nor will there be a need to gravitate to a particular group because any group from any walk of life will be able to have it. Then again I want to be careful saying that, there should definitely be some laws prohibiting groups or individuals who are known influencers of violence and hatred from possessing these substances for the simple fact of what you mentioned about being more vulnerable under the influence of psychoactives as there would be a significant risk of manipulation to commit violence, for example if say a white supremacist group was discovered performing some sort of brain washing teqnique of some sort for the purposes of violence or some sort of sadistic/blatantly evil manipulation that should be automatic life imprisonment. Also, making it illegal for influencers of violence or other evils to posses these substances may actually be effective because if it legal to do it outside of that sort of environment then why would people want to gravitate to an environment/group that would make the use of these substances illegal. There's a lot of angles that would need to be covered related to this, but I think and hope I've gotten my point across. If I am missing the point or my idea is flawed in anyone else's opinion please let me know of any thoughts or concerns)
-------------------- "They say money can't buy you happiness, but id rather cry in a dodge challenger than on the sidewalk" Zombie "When working with psychedelic substances, you must always start with yourself" Dr. Albert Hofmann (1906-2008, Rest in peace) Any questions/posts asked/posted by myself are purely, 100% hypothetical and/or make-believe and do not state fact or any current events in any form. Edited by RP3 (06/13/23 07:29 AM)
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,258 Last seen: 9 hours, 18 minutes |
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Why do legalization advocates always try to sneak it in under the guise of something else? I wanna get high for fun, not because of some Jesus bullshit.
Similarly, I don't want to arbitrarily ban some drugs but not all drugs, I have no problem with legal meth. Hell, legal meth is probably better than illegal meth. I think that might have been in your other post, though.
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Misanthrope Registered: 08/30/11 Posts: 9,854 Last seen: 8 hours, 24 minutes |
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Probably because more people are open to the idea of allowing use for religious purposes than for recreational purposes. There have actually been some court rulings in favor of a right to religious use of entheogens.
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Stranger Registered: 11/01/14 Posts: 12,258 Last seen: 9 hours, 18 minutes |
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Partly a requested response, which I might have made so short it comes off as flippant. I don't mean it that way. I think this is a fundamental mental block among drug users that needs to be overcome.
Here is my thought process on various ways of "sneaking" legalization: If I say "I want to get high because my god says I should get high" then every fucking religious scholar on the planet is gonna be like "well, you're misinterpreting this and that and blah blah" and honestly, I'm somewhat informed about religion, but I don't think I'm well versed enough to beat back literally every religious argument ever. Similar for medical reasons. "I want to get high because it helps the [condition]" just leads to a whole lot of debate on whether I have [condition], how bad [condition] is, other possible medicines to treat [condition], etc. However, if I say "I wanna get high because I wanna get high", then Mr. anti-drug is gonna have to go ahead and argue that I do not have the right to do what I want in my own free time because...what? I don't have the right to self-determination? Haha, fuck you bitch. Try telling people they do not have the right to determine how they live their own lives. See how that goes. When you try to sneak drug legalization through under the guise of something else, it disarms you. I don't want to debate the medicinal value of smoking weed, I do not care about the medicinal value of smoking weed. If I'm being completely honest, I do not think that weed has a net positive medicinal value. Same thing with religion. I don't want to debate my religious right to smoke weed. I do not have any religion, and I don't want to pretend I do religion only to smoke weed. What I would like to do is smoke weed. Not because it is medicine, not because it is part of m,y religion, but because that's what I wanna fucking do. If you disagree, you're gonna have to go ahead and prove to me that how I decide to spend my time is not only your business, but important enough that you get to veto how I spend my time and health. And that is not something that you can do without looking like an authoritarian fool.
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Bodhi Registered: 08/16/16 Posts: 26,657 Loc: The Primordial Mind |
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amen
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Strange R Registered: 04/24/03 Posts: 38,323 Loc: subtropics |
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All I want to do is get high
I don't know how I don't know why all I know is I want o get high you look at me you wonder why all I know is I want to get high
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Psychedelic Researcher Registered: 04/24/20 Posts: 785 |
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To me it's all fair game as long as we come from an intersectional lens; that is, working from each angle conjointly to complement each perspective. One-dimensional resistance efforts that only represent one or few groups is the issue, which can occur in any one of cognitive, religious, or medical liberties if we only advocate for them independent of each other.
I agree that cognitive liberty (the right to self-determination in this context) should be more central to our efforts for the reasons you suggest. That doesn't mean we should not have religious or medical protections in place too. These protections involve not just drug access, but access in conjunction with medical services, resources, etc. as well as ceremonial uses, and certainly some Indigenous protections for some psychedelics (e.g., peyote which is being poached by Westerners and reducing the supply for the Huichol people in Mexico). Cognitive liberty alone won't address these unique issues where psychedelics intersect with medicine/religion. Keep in mind that the majority of psychedelic users are using for both recreational and therapeutic/medical purposes, according to research. We just need to be extremely precise in calling out bullshit when the calls to religious and medical freedom remove cognitive liberty from it's rightful seat at the table. Intersectionality is key ![]() Loving the thoughtful discussion breathing some new life into this thread. Psychedelic justice = so many different forms of justice
Edited by Rhizomorph (07/07/23 01:06 PM)
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Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement:
Easiest No-Pour Agar Method:
) then white people will not suffer from it.



- the internet does strange things to how we regard others
stay in your lane



- where one surveillance route gets cut off, the sytem branches out finding new avenues, populations, etc. to surveil. and subsequently capitalize off of this surveillance by selling the information to those who generally support right-leaning status quos. I would personally compare it to AI systems that, when you tell them to play a game by the rules,
)






