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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 2
    #28078629 - 12/01/22 06:52 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

OP let's face it, the people and heritage of most of the psychedelic wherewithal have given it a bad name. All the way down to co opting the natives. Stamets now frowns on people that don't use it as "true medicine". Although a decent fellow, get the fuck outa here with the elitism.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Enlil]
    #28078635 - 12/01/22 06:55 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Excess Taters said:
You do understand that everyone in this forum pays more of a percentage of our earnings in taxes than 99% of the rich and powerful, right?  .



This is almost certainly false




The only way it is false is if I'm talking about normal millionaires, and in retrospect I realize that I should have been clearer, I was referring to billionaires, as that's what the guy I was responding to was talking about.  For billionaires, the amount of money they gain is gained via stocks, and it's only realized via selling stocks.

So by creating amazing companies and having tons of stock, the better the company does the more money they gain via their stock.  This is unrealized until they decide to sell, so they have unrealized profits that are absolutely insane.  I'm not knocking this tax law, when investing if you just taxed everyone whenever their stock increased compared to where it was last year, when a stock collapses someone might be completely broke and have paid tons of taxes on stock they've actually lost money on. 

With that said, as an example

"According to Forbes, those 25 people saw their worth rise a collective $401 billion from 2014 to 2018. They paid a total of $13.6 billion in federal income taxes in those five years, the IRS data shows. That’s a staggering sum, but it amounts to a true tax rate of only 3.4%."

Most of that value is in unrealized gains on their stocks, and legally they're not dodging the law by not selling their stocks, and I've already explained why this law is generally good.  I am saying that being able to do that gives them a way to avoid paying as much taxes as we do, as most of their wealth isn't derived from work, but from stock gains.  Since they don't have to pay tax on that wealth until they sell the stock, they may gain $2 billion in profit one year and pay $60 million in taxes.

So it does depend on how you look at it.  If you're just saying "Via the law, do they pay more in taxes as a percentage on their earned income", then yeah, you're correct.  If you're considering how much their wealth increases every year compared to how much they pay in taxes, it's significantly less than the average worker.


--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek


Edited by Excess Taters (12/01/22 06:56 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28078677 - 12/01/22 07:24 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

You didn't say anything about the average worker,  though. You said every single person in this forum.


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OfflineExcess Taters
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28078722 - 12/01/22 07:57 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You didn't say anything about the average worker,  though. You said every single person in this forum.




Pedantic but correct.  Are you a bureaucrat?  You remind me of Hermes Conrad from Futurama. 



--------------------
If you've never grown mushrooms before, here's how you start.  First, follow the Updated PF Tek, put 4 holes in jar lids not 1, and use a water tub! 
The next move is Shoebox Tek. After that you move onto grains, agar, monotubs.  Agar is easy, just do it.
Other useful links - Picture guide for how things should look and proper surface conditions guide
Growing APE or PE?  P9 pseudo casing tek


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Excess Taters] * 1
    #28078728 - 12/01/22 08:01 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Calling out hyperbolic rhetoric isn't pedantic. I'm trying to help you up your skills,  sir.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #28078981 - 12/02/22 01:20 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
OP let's face it, the people and heritage of most of the psychedelic wherewithal have given it a bad name. All the way down to co opting the natives. Stamets now frowns on people that don't use it as "true medicine". Although a decent fellow, get the fuck outa here with the elitism.



Wholeheartedly agree. Although I do wonder what Stamets means by a "true medicine" as this sounds somewhat ambiguous but I'm not familiar with the specific quote/context you're speaking of...

But yeah the ghost of Timothy Leary still lurks in the shadows which has scared those in power into restricting access to psychedelics to only the most privileged in society; those (unfairly) deemed the best, most competent minds - the white scientists, policy makers, doctors, etc. Indigenous, mentally ill, and marginalized communities are perpetually left out because they don't fit within the ideals of western society and still face heavy stigma.

Safety is paramount, but the harms of excluding particular groups are far more considerable, especially when psychedelics have the potential to either treat or reproduce racial trauma depending on whether the psychedelic community learns cultural competence & adopts social justice allyship. Also, ya know, psychedelics are Indigenous technologies and yet white people claim ownership... Reciprocity within the psychedelic community and the medical system at large is severely lacking :shake:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (12/02/22 01:46 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28078992 - 12/02/22 01:31 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Calling out hyperbolic rhetoric isn't pedantic. I'm trying to help you up your skills,  sir.



Although I don't disagree with you, I do think that we all may seek to benefit from asking permission or offering criticism in a softer way. I think failing to acknowledge the overarching meaning by fixating on said hyperbolic rhetoric can come across (unintentionally) as pedantic or even inconsiderate as it shifts the attention away from what the writer cares about most: the principle idea.

Tuning into the affective context (although challenging via online communication) helps to decide whether said criticism is relevant, socially appropriate, or needed. I.e., there's a time and place :shrug:

Feel free to disagree though, I just don't want this thread to become derailed into arguing over the meaning of meaning is all. We all have our own agenda's, but admittedly mine is to apply critical social theory to psychedelic culture to raise awareness and reduce the various harms that the psychedelic community has witnessed; cultural harm reduction per say. Fixating on a specific sentence that perhaps erroneously spoke in absolutes just doesn't seem to be too relevant to this goal :shrug:

When others speak in absolutes I think it can be helpful for us to recognize the likely frustration they may be experiencing under a culture, system, etc. before we criticize the language they used. Economic & political discussions relate directly to the complex lived experiences of individuals with unique pain, desires, etc. and that is reflected through the ways we express black and white thinking.

Assuming they are not actively complicit in oppressing others (or contributing to cultures which do so) through this black and white thinking, I argue we should have some tolerance & patience with these types of statements.


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (12/02/22 01:44 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #28079181 - 12/02/22 07:24 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

As you may or may not know, this is a debate forum.  Dishonest and/or fallacious tactics are regularly called out in here.  It is, after all, an important function of debate to separate the wheat from the chaff.  Whatever soft touch and/or hand-holding you might prefer, you have posted in a political discussion forum.  This is not the pub, nor is it psychedelic experiences.  As such, you and other posters should expect your posts to be held to the standard of this forum.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #28079940 - 12/02/22 04:34 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
As you may or may not know, this is a debate forum.  Dishonest and/or fallacious tactics are regularly called out in here.  It is, after all, an important function of debate to separate the wheat from the chaff.  Whatever soft touch and/or hand-holding you might prefer, you have posted in a political discussion forum.  This is not the pub, nor is it psychedelic experiences.  As such, you and other posters should expect your posts to be held to the standard of this forum.



I never disacknowledged these facts. In fact, I would argue my comment is very consistent with everything you've said.

If anything, I'm providing the same criticial inquiry about the communication skills you yourself mentioned; we're equally complicit. :shrug:

I just don't see the use of criticizing someone's unique speech and then subsequently leveraging your subjective idea of what speech should look like when I do the same to you; it's all the same game but mate, you started it. Thus, you bear the responsibility of the precendent set by said criticism when it is directed back at you.

Besides, to speak in a persuasive/effective manner is to recognize that the "hand holding" as you call it (which demonstrates an obvious prejudice) is in fact quite necessary as humans rarely change their views from type 2/cognitive argumentation (see the dual process model of thinking). It is through type 1 thinking/intuitive & implicit thinking that people think. Likewise, people rarely if ever change their views when they feel defensive. There's plenty of social psychology to back this up.

So, to not only debate in a socially effective manner, but also to develop your social intelligence skills, is to appeal to the affective/sentimental flow of your audience. lest we become our own echo chambers without a caring audience who feels connected to our ideas, cognitively, emotionally, etc. There is perhaps a creative capacity or artistic way we can utilize our words to get across what we mean while maintaining a collaborative spirit. Otherwise, we are likely to feel, and really be, unheard as we come across as disgruntled, cold, and emotionally unattached. Again, coming across as emotionally attuned to the conversation is vital for persuasive debate.

My question for you is, which type of thinking do you rely more on?

But hey, if you think the art of effective communication is handholding, I won't try to change your mind; I respect your autonomy to come up with your own interpersonal style, whether it makes sense to me or not :shrug:

Contrary to your implications, I'm more than okay with the discussion at hand and the way it is being had (in fact I quite enjoy this conversation :grin:). I'm going to go do some personal reflection and I encourage you to do the same. We could both use some self-awareness :tongue2:

Appreciate the critical discourse! :super:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (12/08/22 10:51 AM)


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Offlinejohnukguy
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #28086639 - 12/06/22 08:35 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:

The best advice I try to give people first entering the psychedelic scene is to avoid idealizing psychedelics, gurus, shamans, cultural ideas within the psychedelic & spiritual community etc. In short, regard psychedelics and spirituality with a high degree of scrutiny. Of course, mentors can be an immensely valuable tool, but to do serious spiritual or psychedelic work, we need to take some level of personal responsibility by vetting our mentors






Completely agree and thank you for the book recommendation.


--------------------
“Evey Hammond: Who are you?
V: Who? Who is but the form following the function of what and what I am is a man in a mask.
Evey Hammond: Well I can see that.
V: Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is”


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #28105704 - 12/20/22 08:58 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Honestly, white supremacy?

Give me a fucking break.


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: starfire_xes] * 2
    #28105711 - 12/20/22 09:05 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

:god2:
my psychic abilities tell me you are most likely a white male obsessed with hilary.



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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: mushboy]
    #28105884 - 12/20/22 11:19 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Is there something wrong being a white male?


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #28107673 - 12/21/22 05:07 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

HA! Ended up in big D eh? Try to enjoy and not get shot on the hwy or around town.:smirk:
Deep Ellum used to be VERY cool and fun. Try "Hook Line and Sinker" over there off Lemmon in the oak lawn/highland park area. Also "Lucky's". "Mario's" is a great salvadoran and tex-mex place. "Cafe Brazil" has some of the best chicken and spinach crepes ever. Tex mex is one of my fave foods of all time and it just rocks in the DFW area. BBQ is awesome in Texas too. Take a trip and go to the museums in FT WT. The Modern in Dallas is good but it seems like the ones in FT WT are a bit better.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #28110021 - 12/23/22 02:27 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Honestly, white supremacy?

Give me a fucking break.



Brilliant, well thought out response demonstrating clear critical thinking skills around a complex topic. Bravo! :rolleyes:

Try again with a positive/collaborate attitude that demonstrates you're eager to both share and listen and maybe we can have a fruitful conversation that doesn't waste both our time. A tolerance for differing perspectives & uncertainty goes a long way :grin:

Or we can shut off our prefrontal cortex and rely on the subcortical areas of the brain (the less critical areas) by relying on heuristics (simplifications) and prejudices as your comment demonstrates. Personally, I'd rather we both have some pride in our ability to use our brains effectively, even if it takes actual work to do so :shrug:

Also
Quote:

mushboy said:
:god2:
my psychic abilities tell me you are most likely a white male obsessed with hilary.




:tongue2:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #28111061 - 12/24/22 12:07 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Honestly, white supremacy?

Give me a fucking break.



Brilliant, well thought out response demonstrating clear critical thinking skills around a complex topic. Bravo! :rolleyes:

Try again with a positive/collaborate attitude that demonstrates you're eager to both share and listen and maybe we can have a fruitful conversation that doesn't waste both our time. A tolerance for differing perspectives & uncertainty goes a long way :grin:

Or we can shut off our prefrontal cortex and rely on the subcortical areas of the brain (the less critical areas) by relying on heuristics (simplifications) and prejudices as your comment demonstrates. Personally, I'd rather we both have some pride in our ability to use our brains effectively, even if it takes actual work to do so :shrug:

Also
Quote:

mushboy said:
:god2:
my psychic abilities tell me you are most likely a white male obsessed with hilary.




:tongue2:




Nah! White supremacy 'give me a fucking break' is about right to be fair! As lurking beneath all the fine talk about tolerance what you are really doing is attempting to inject the same divisive and hateful (not to mention absurd) Neomarxist/liberal ideology into the discourse here on the shroomery, as they are trying to push onto our societies and schools/children. An ideology that is a cancer upon western societies, and far from bringing people together, is ripping them apart! 

There is no white supremacy (or far right/Nazism) in the psychedelic movement! That is absurd...

Unless of course -in typical marxist/neoliberal fashion- one simply trivializes and redefines the definition of 'white supremacy' and then goes after anyone who conforms to this new -much much broader- definition. These are, after all, the same tired old tactics of the radical leftists when they will attempt to denounce, run-of-the-mill conservatives (and even traditional leftists) as 'far right' or 'Nazi' simply so they can ban/censor or persecute people they don't like (or who say things they don't like), the irony of such despicable and vindictive behaviour being apparently lost on them! 

It is not the peace loving peeps in the psychedelic movement that are the problem in our western societies.

It is the radical leftists, or rather those that are pushing this radical left ideology onto our societies for their own nefarious reasons.

Why not speak out against them?

I hope you will help get this world (and forum) back to the imperfect but much saner/more stable traditional left/right western values and stop with all this radical left nonsense.


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: wolf8312] * 2
    #28111163 - 12/24/22 02:48 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

White supremacists don't like it when people don't follow them to the right.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: wolf8312]
    #28112240 - 12/25/22 05:24 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Thank you for the more thorough response. I really enjoy the thoughtful discussion :super:

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
what you are really doing is attempting to inject the same divisive and hateful (not to mention absurd) Neomarxist/liberal ideology




How is this so with regards to my point about white supremacy that you are criticizing? It is a critique of culture & colonialism. Neomarxists would contend that this culture & the policies that produce it are part of the superstructure; I.e, not directly relevant to social conflict, in the Hegelian dialectic sense. Indeed, critical social theory - and myself - has, for the most part, directly rejected Marxism and neomarxism due to this class reductionism. Likewise, the development of critical social theories in the early-mid 20th century specifically sought to answer the question of why a Marxist revolution never transpired; the emphasis on culture by scholars such as Stuart Hall & the Center for Cultural Studies in Santa Cruz, as well as the Frankfurt school & others, was paramount in addressing this gap.

Certainly my point about psychedelic commercialization may fit more closely in a Neomarxist narrative (thus why I specifically acknowledged by bias on that point; it is a bit more subjective I admit), but to stay relevant to your criticism of my point on white supremacy, I believe calling me neomarxist demonstrates a failure to understand what neomarxism is in both contemporary and historical contexts. My critique in no way is class reductionistic as it places heavy emphasis on culture & politics, not just economic relations

And to mention liberalism as though it is in any way consistent with my position is even more preposterous considering that John Locke himself wrote about how "savage" & "uncivilized" Indigenous people were as a justification for excluding them from his wonderful "rule of law" (The irony of this rule being that all humans are equal under the law and yet non white people were directly called & designated as non-human politically speaking); the result? colonization & dispossession of Indigenous peoples from their land (private property laws not applying to them, afterall), as well as genocide among other things...

Need I go into how neoliberalism is the very cornerstone of capitalism that Marx rejected?

Have you studied any political, social, or cultural theory? No offence but your prescription of these terms makes me wonder if you know their relevant history and application to modern political theory & world politics :confused:

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
cancer upon western societies




Loaded language... Bias/prejudiced?

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
There is no white supremacy (or far right/Nazism) in the psychedelic movement! That is absurd...




This is a non-sequitur; you've only really provided your subjective sentiments towards this idea. I have no reason to believe this without an evidence-based response (see some of the articles I shared in the OP for a collection of research & statistics supporting my claims).

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
These are, after all, the same tired old tactics of the radical leftists when they will attempt to denounce, run-of-the-mill conservatives (and even traditional leftists) as 'far right' or 'Nazi' simply so they can ban/censor or persecute people they don't like




This is a worthy consideration, but of course it is not ubiquitous. As such, we must define specifically how and when this occurs. Without defining it on a context-to-context basis, we risk both allowing the term Nazi & white supremacist to be weaponized against valid arguments (your concern) AND valid criticisms of actual Nazism to be dismissed as an attempt to censor; we can't paint it all with one brush, as evidently both occur. It goes both ways, which is why it is irrelevant to point this phenomena out without identifying how specifically I am doing that, which you have not done. Again, I get you have your gripes with the radical left, but how do my arguments fit this bill? Evidence.

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Why not speak out against them?

I hope you will help get this world (and forum) back to the imperfect but much saner/more stable traditional left/right western values and stop with all this radical left nonsense.



I believe I do actively speak out against radical leftism and nothing about my critique either fits the bill of radical leftism nor prevents the critique of radical leftism. I'm not a communist despite what the dominant culture may like to say about critical social theory.

This is feeling like a repeat of the guy earlier in this thread who said that modern social theory is just Hegelianism rebranded... I feel like the American/Western social studies curriculum must be ending their social studies lessons at the 19th century or something because these ideas are not historically accurate whatsoever... I encourage you to read through some of the thread history as I've discussed some of these things already; namely, the history of critical social theory.

I appreciate you taking the time to discuss & unpack these important topics. Keep being awesome! :awesomenod:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/22 11:47 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #28112255 - 12/25/22 05:46 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Can everyone reading this thread who wishes to criticize my post please look through the thread history before posting? I welcome all criticism but when I have to repeat myself it inhibits the generation of new ideas and a productive flow of discourse directed towards a teleological resolution.

Posting this in the OP as well. Thank you all! :thumbup:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/22 10:56 PM)


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Invisibledoolhoofd
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #28112276 - 12/25/22 06:06 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
1. White Supremacy & Cultural Appropriation




Agree.

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
2. Better than thou attitude




Agree.

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
3. Ignoring or cherry-picking science




Agree.

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
4. Psychedelic commercialization




Agree.

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
5. Psychedelic Mainstreaming




Agree.

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
Conclusion
and humility.




"Only errors exist." - Robert's Axiom

"One man's error is another man's data." - Berman's Corollary to Robert's Axiom

"Of all the offspring of Time, Error is the most ancient, and is so old and familiar an acquaintance, that Truth, when discovered, comes upon most of us like an intruder, and meets the intruder's welcome." - Britney Spears




--------------------
Penny: 'What are you and Professor FussyFace up to tonight?'
Leonard: "Star Wars on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Haven't you seen that movie like, a thousand times?'
Leonard: "Not on Blu-ray. Only twice on Blu-ray."
Penny: 'Oh, Leonard...'
Leonard: "I know. It's high-resolution sadness."
- The Big Bang Theory, S07E09


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