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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Warrk]
    #27754512 - 04/28/22 04:49 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Warrk said:
One thing I am constantly reminded of is if we expect a certain standard of others, are we also applying those same standards to ourselves? Are we not also unwittingly supporting oppressive, destructive practices (and corporations and governments) through the choices we make each day? From the clothes we wear to the food we eat and the electronic devices we use? How about the electricity we consume and the coal that produces it?



Something I've learned is that being intellectually honest means making a commitment to perpetual/endless reflexive learning (& unlearning; such as false ideologies & cultures we were socialized into). I think the question you are raising about it being less categorical and more quantitative is valid. But my point is that we should definitely be drawing some lines where human rights and wellbeing are concerned lest it become a slippery slope into grand narratives regarding subjectivity. What I appreciate about critical theory in sociology is that reflexivity is baked into the theory itself; most critical theories of culture are very transparent about, and thoroughly discuss the ways their critical theory of cultural production and power is itself an exercise of cultural production and power. Yet, this should not discount the theory; if anything this is what makes critical theory so appealing: it might just be one of the most self-aware cultures that exists so resisting cultural bias is theoretically less likely (sociology asks not only what is under the microscope, but also, how does the social positionality & background of the individual looking through the microscope, affect the interpretation of what is seen? In the social world, these variables account for a lot of variance).

Besides the point of my OP is really just to spread awareness. There are material limitations to the clothes, food, and energy we consume. Relative to these practices, we have far more autonomy over whether or not we engage in problematic cultures.

If it makes any difference to you, I personally try to engage as ethically and cognizant as possible about the material choices I make day-to-day, and try to limit the negative impact of these choices. Yet, I also have to be easy on myself as I can't escape capitalism :shrug: ultimately my OP is more about culture, which we have more control over than material impacts we make (and in my mind culture sits at the heart of whether or not we resist or maintain capitalism).

Quote:

Warrk said:
Even if we decide on a vegetarian or even a vegan diet, being aware of the fact that rainforests in the Amazon are being bulldozed in order to grow soy should give us pause for thought.



Again, I'm talking about culture, not actions undertaken to achieve material needs. But, some food for thought: the vast majority of soy (I believe 80%+) is fed to livestock with a calorie conversion of something like 17 plant-based calories to 1 meat-based calorie, so extremely inefficient. So, technically non-vegan diets account for significantly more land being bulldozed and soy production. But this is off topic: I'm not trying to argue for or against veganism here of course as there's wayyy more to unpack in that conversation (so many people just can't access this type of diet, especially racial minorities, so the intersection with capitalism is paramount). Lets stick to the topic of the thread....

Quote:

Warrk said:
My take on why things are the way they are comes from a evolutionary biology angle.The myriad of life forms that exists on this planet is due of the interplay of many factors but ultimately species continue to exist because they have traits that are useful and allow their survival. Whether that concept is easily translated to the social and cultural side of things I cannot say and have no expertise in.



It does not translate to the social or cultural side of things according to most experts I'm familiar with as humans did not evolve in globalized post-industrial societies. Sure, we can explain more basic psychological phenomena in terms of evolutionary function, but then why have we not adapted to obesity, cancer, depression, etc. Functionalism may be able to explain why humans formed in-group biases during tribalistic and agrarian societies, but the exponential growth of industrialism & globalization means we have only had a few thousand if not hundred years to "adapt" to contemporary society. The "reptillian brain", if you're familiar with this concept (the emotional centres of the mid- and hind-brain that are reactionary and uncritical) still shapes most of our social interactions as a result. Durkheim's notion of anomie & his analysis of organic vs. mechanical social solidarity in traditional vs. modern societies may help to contextualize this. Georg Simmel's Metropolis is also a great read. And of course, much of psychology is consistent with these theories given how humans still have the outdated evolutionary mechanisms that would be adaptive in traditional societies but manifest as chronic psychological or physical health conditions (obesity, cancer, heart disease) in today's society. Culture is no different.

Quote:

Warrk said:
I have not been on this forum as long as some old-time members but I've hung around long enough to know that hardly anyone changes their beliefs as a result of interactions on here. It is almost like an echo chamber at times, with little sub-groups forming and where all sorts of weird shit is entertained if not embraced. For me personally, I'm kinda perplexed how a shroom user could be a supporter of Trump, in my world that would seem diametrically opposed lol.



I wholeheartedly agree. It sounds contradictory which is why I've spent some of the past few years in academia trying to understand psychedelics from not just my primary psychological focus, but my peripheral focus in sociology, culture, law, etc. There's so many bogus ideas surrounding psychedelics which is why I think it's super important to talk about psychedelic culture from a critical sociological lens (or at least a critical lens more generally)

I don't really expect to change anyone's mind though in all honesty. I think I just enjoy writing about this stuff as it is reflexive and consolidates my learning about these topics :awesomenod:

Also I like hearing from users who say they learned something from my post or appreciate the work I put into it :hug:


Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/22 11:34 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: wolf8312] * 1
    #27754529 - 04/28/22 05:19 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wolf8312 said:
Examples?



1. Read some of Monnica Williams' work: https://monnicawilliams.com/publications.php
Maybe I'll have time to dig into it to find something more specific at a later point.

2. On the point of cultural appropriation, I shared some resources in response to another user who mentioned similar things about it. The power dynamics (e.g., neocolonial policies) shape how cultural appropriation results in harms and the harms were describes in an article I shared.

I never said anything about copyrighting the mushroom itself. There are specific cultural practices that surround the mushroom.

Quote:

wolf8312 said:
"you yourself -a member of that movement- have transcended them all, and are therefore more enlightened, humble and self-aware than everyone else?"



I think I've thoroughly addressed my own reflexivity throughout this thread multiple times now. Nowhere have I claimed to be perfect and the whole point of this thread is to encourage meta-examination. Myself, the Shroomery, the cultures you and I engage in, it is all fair game.
:cookiemonster:


Quote:

wolf8312 said:
Magical and bizarre thinking kinda just goes with the territory taking psychedelics though mate.



I'm aware. Nothing about this statement suggests anything about the veracity of my criticisms. Just cause something is a fact doesn't mean we should take it for granted. Neoliberalism kinda just goes with the territory of social media/the mainstream... Doesn't make it right

Quote:

wolf8312 said:
I have never seen the psychedelic movement rampaging through American cities like Mao's red Guards, destroying things and hurting innocent people!



You're missing the point - I'm not saying that the psychedelic movement it some massive threat. Just that there are some issues within it that are disproportional that are worth considering.

But honestly I don't feel I really have the energy to explain further at the moment. Sorry for my half-assed response. I just feel like I'm starting to repeat myself in this thread is all.

I appreciate your engagement with the material though! :super:


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27754537 - 04/28/22 05:29 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
Why 'psychedelic people' and the psychedelic movement really kind of sucks


Now don't get me wrong - I should preface that I am very involved in the psychedelic movement as a researcher, policy advocate, and an enthusiast in some instances; I love all things psychedelic... Despite this love, there are some serious issues with the types of people attaching themselves to the psychedelic movement.

The Shroomery is of no shortage of these types of people in my experience. Of course, there are equal if not more Shroomery members who are not complicit in these issues. Nonetheless, I'm sure this post will be controversial, but I've included the major issues I see with much of the psychedelic movement and psychedelic people, including myself, and some of the people/ideas on this forum and elsewhere.

1. White Supremacy & Cultural Appropriation


There are a significant number of neo-Nazis who practice entryism to recruit people from psychedelic communities. This is largely successful considering that both parties often sit outside the dominant culture and share similar oppositions to political structures.

Moreover, psychedelic research & use in the West has largely appropriated psychedelic-related practices from Meso-American Indigenous cultures. This is exemplified by the lack of credit, involvement of, and intellectual ownership attributed by white people to Indigenous cultures and peoples.

It is also too common for underground psychedelic service providers to appropriate various cultures' symbols, beliefs, practices, etc. into a cultural hodgepodge for the setting of the psychedelic experience they are providing.

Trans-nationally, it is common for white people in developed nations to travel to drug-tourism hot spots and partake in ceremonies in exchange for goods or currency. Although this is thought to be a consensual process, neo-colonialism shapes trans-national power dynamics that confuse the nature of these relationships. I'm not saying traveling to Peru to drink ayahuasca with the Shipibo is wrong - but that the neo-colonial relations are often poorly understood if considered at all by the travelers doing this.

Lastly, the history of psychedelics are often understood by white and European people in terms of Western histories. Indeed, more attention is given to Huxley, Timothy Leary, Sidney Cohen, Gordon Wasson, Humphrey Osmond, Albert Hoffman etc. than people of colour such as Maria Sabina (who Wasson appropriated the Mazatec mushroom ceremony from and shared with the U.S. without her permission), the Santo Daime or Native American Church, or the advanced epistemologies and medicinal practices of the Shipibo and other Indigenous groups native to the Andes, rainforest, Africa, and many other areas.

2. Better than thou attitude


I've met far too many psychedelic-minded people who are completely convinced of their enlightenment, self-awareness, and humility, despite being complete assholes. There is an implicit assumption that psychedelics make people more altruistic and compassionate. Occasionally (and usually only when the set & setting is tailored to produce such results) this occurs, but outside these controlled settings, psychedelics just as often reinforce egocentricity.

Many erroneously believe that ego-dissolution will make people humbler. Yet, too often people return to normal waking consiousness and upon reconstruction of the self, the self apparently latches onto what memory they have of the experience to justify a superiority-complex; "I existed without a self then, so now I must be able to see through the illusions of the ego". True humility doesn't assume that the psychedelic experience makes one any more or less humble - there is something between the time that the ego dissolves and reforms that determines this - that thing is our own self-reflective judgment that funnels through the ego, regardless of past ego-dissolution. When the ego reforms, the judgments we make of the psychedelic experience are still subject to the self-serving nature of the ego.

In short, where many people need to check their ego, psychedelic users need to check their ego-death.

3. Ignoring or cherry-picking science


The extent to which the psychedelic movement is de-legitimized through association with irrelevant and downright bizarre ideologies or beliefs is unfortunate. Radical anti-vaccine sentiment, conspiracies, beliefs that psychedelics can cure every ailment from A-Z, or can heal your energies (whatever this means), and many other "alternative" or "holistic" forms of healing with no evidence-base are all examples of this.

Here's a direct example from a Shroomery member (I usually wouldn't out a specific member but this member was very rude and disrespectful to multiple Shroomery members including myself just for sharing differing views on their theory, so I don't mind highlighting their comment):
Quote:

AngryStork said:
Do you think any of the psychedelic mushrooms that we have now could be senesced versions of a superpotent mushroom that could've been a hallucinogenic direct message from aliens?




These ideas are not too surprising considering that psychedelics artificially increase novelty detection through neurobiological mechanisms (activation in the locus coeruleus). I.e., that 'lightbulb' feeling you get when you discover some new information and grasp a new concept; especially when it is information that feels like it is specially endowed upon us individually and others don't have access to it. In our day to day lives, this is a bottom-up process that stems from external stimuli. But, psychedelics, through increasing neural firing, makes this top-down (i.e., not dependent on external stimuli, but instead produced by the internal effects of the drug).

In short, psychedelics make people very open and suggestible to new information, regardless of the validity of that information.

4. Psychedelic commercialization


(I fully acknowledge my left-leaning bias on this point)

Many want to believe that psychedelics could foundationally shift people's attitudes to be more compassionate towards outgroup members (which research has shown is associated with people who are politically left-leaning) and more likely to resist authority or become anti-capitalist. Yet, many people take psychedelics for the first time and rather than their first thoughts being "wow, this could help so many other people!" their first thought is "wow, I could make a ton of money off of this!".

Truly, psychedelic corporations (corporadelics) such as COMPASS Pathways, MindMed, etc. are engaging in various commercial practices that intend to patent certain psychedelics, syntheses, organic intermediates, etc. as well as data-fying clients and standardizing psychedelic treatments into 'production-line' styled treatments that maximize profit. Many of these corporadelic actors also have the material means to curb mental health problems to a much greater extent by decreasing financial inequality across the masses (lots of these companies have shares, partnerships, or co-founded junk health product lines where employees are barely paid a livable wage)

5. Psychedelic Mainstreaming


Gwyneth Paltrow's Netflix show, the Goop Lab is a great example of this. Her show is loaded with psuedoscience and often serves to direct consumers to her personal product line. It is also extremely white-washed but I will let you come to your own conclusions about how this happens by watching the show yourself (or don't if you want to avoid subjecting yourself to frustrating illustrations of psychedelic science & medicine)

The psychedelic renaissance is not just gaining attention by scientists and interested individuals, but also the public mainstream culture. This has some benefits such as positive publicity, but carries with it all the prejudices, pseudoscience, systemic problems, oppressive narratives, stigma, sensationalism, negative publicity, etc. that is inherent to the mainstream. Psychedelics often don't fit well with the status quo (insofar as they are not being commercialized for economic benefit of the middle and upper classes). The mainstream is likely to report predominantly on psychedelics where their use and publicity supports the status quo.

This issue leads into many of the previous issues where psychedelics are usually represented in ways that support white supremacy (favouring European histories), commercialization (advertising), and many other dominant ideologies with commercial or ideological interests.

Conclusion


To conclude, none of these issues strictly undermine the therapeutic or recreational legitimacy of psychedelic use. But, to construct the equitable, accesible, and evidence-based paradigm for psychedelic healing most of the Shroomery likely envisions, these are the issues I believe need to be tackled.

Psychedelic cheer-leading is already in abundance. If unguided, psychedelic cheer-leading is likely to reproduce the very harms we are trying to treat with psychedelics. What we need now is social justice, evidence, and humility.

To quote the Auryn Project's webcomic, We Will Call it Pala: "It was clear that patients were so eager for psychedelic treatment that they would waive nearly all their privacy rights away. There is no medicine strong enough to blow a corporation's mind. We can look around today and see many psychedelic business models. But what we really need are psychedelic models for business - business that defines new standards for integrity, equity and ethics; business reimagined with a technicolor glow.

What vision do you hold in your heart for a psychedelic future? What will you do now, while you can, to see that it is realized?"



None of this is exclusive to psychedelics. If none of it is exclusive, the true context isn't psychedelics. You're complaining about people and the perception of exclusivity. You don't have to like what people do, and no one has a monopoly on the behaviour of others. :shrug:

Basically - if you don't like it, don't look.

As much as I love the psychedelic community, there tends to be a lack of self awareness.


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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27754594 - 04/28/22 06:50 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I learned things from your posts and I also appreciate the time and consideration you put into them. And I also agree with the main thrust of your argument, and your concerns about the psychedelic community.

I like to play Devil's Advocate sometimes and enjoy challenging accepted wisdoms. For me, one thing that comes up often is how we decide what is good and what is bad, it can seem rather subjective sometimes and at other times context is everything. What might be good now can turn bad, or what we consider as bad might actually be good in disguise?

A case in point. We might see obesity as a bad thing but obesity is a result of biological mechanisms and adaptations that have helped humanity through aeons when food resources are scarce. The conversion of excess calories into fat during times of plenty, and the conversion of fat back to energy during lean times have ensured that human societies thrived regardless of what the seasons provide.

Depression... some say that this is linked to high creativity and some of the most accomplished people who have walked this Earth have been depressed.

Cancer I'm not sure about, but it has been around for a long time as evidenced in reports of bone cancer found in dinosaur bones. There is a lot that is still not known about cancer but basically it happens when programmed cell death does not go to plan and cells continue to divide and multiply. Is there an evolutionary advantage for the existence of cancer? I don't know but I had a quick search on Google and found this:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/did-cancer-evolve-to-protect-us/

Basically, good and bad are kinda interchangeable sometimes. If only there were a Universal Code of Ethics or something like that...

Capitalism I'm in two minds about. Money is a great incentive for getting things done and money also makes many things possible. Perhaps it comes down to greed  or power inequalities rather than capitalism per se. I don't know, I still think that the majority of us who have access to the internet are elites and privileged. The truly disempowered have no such luxury and are surviving hand to mouth on a daily basis, day in day out. But if they have no mortgage to service, no road rage to deal with, no toxic masculinity to put up with or office politics to negotiate, maybe they are the ones that are empowered and the rest of us are the ones who are really suffering?


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Warrk]
    #27755285 - 04/28/22 03:38 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I agree that the biological mechanisms underpinning obesity and depression have an evolutionary basis. My point is that they have become widespread and the ways they are regulated have a much greater emphasis on modern cultures and access to medicine (which has a cultural component given the cultural barriers to access).

Technically it's all evolutionary, but many of the positive adaptational changes of evolution have become negative because of the social context, so the social context explains as much if not more of the variance in human cultural development than the positive/functional adaptational changes.

Anyways my point was not at all to say the sharp increase in cancer or obesity is objectively cultural. I was just providing an example of how post-industrialism has changed trends that prior evolutionary adaptations have not fully accounted for. Given this fact, we can elaborate further on culture.

I agree with your sentiments towards capitalism. I do think pure neoliberalism contradicts itself and I definitely think there needs to be some restrictions


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: larry.fisherman] * 1
    #27755288 - 04/28/22 03:39 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Ya don't need to quote my entire OP dude...

Also I already provided justification for why these issues are disproportional for psychedelic culture in an earlier comment. So although exclusive is not the right word as it implies a categorical yes/no characterization, it is more "exclusive" to psychedelic culture in terms of a quantitative continuum.

We can't act like some cultures don't intersect more or less with certain cultures comparatively. I even exemplified this by describing the neurochemical underpinnings for why psychedelic people engage more in pseudoscience.

:doh:


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (04/28/22 03:43 PM)


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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27757232 - 04/30/22 05:59 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

It is heartening how a number of the world's ultra rich have decided to give away the vast majority of their wealth. In a way, power and wealth are not really things to desire because with power and money comes great responsibility. I wouldn't want that sort of responsibility not to mention having to be constantly on guard to protect oneself from harm. Like I said before, good and bad are kinda subjective and it all depends on one's frame of reference. Ultimately everyone goes through hardships, everyone suffers, everyone experiences fear, loss and grief. There is a bit of a Tall Poppy Syndrome when it comes to the rich and powerful I think, driven by our envy of them and causing plain old jealousy.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Warrk] * 2
    #27758105 - 04/30/22 08:54 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Agreed!! It blows my mind that capitalism is still taken for granted as the best system by so many people. I'm not saying it doesn't have its merits (when combined with some level of regulation) but neoliberalism/free market capitalism (although not really "free" in the social sense haha) is certainly something most people see as the norm. Even those who do oppose capitalism often support the social assemblages by reducing social conflict to capitalism despite the fact that colonialism, racism, sexism, etc. are all very profitable and likewise reproduce these constructs dialectically; thus the interactional assemblage.

I think it was Herbert Marcuse that said under capitalism the average person is a "One Dimensional Man" in that they believe they have have their needs met (coke vs. pepsi; post-industrial job booms, etc. providing the illusion of autonomy) but this choice is really one-dimensional and ignores alternative ideologies.

Some people (I.e., idiots who don't know what capitalism or socialism are) might call Marcuse a communist but he also heavily criticized the Communist Party & USSR so I would say he is fairly objective

As I said before: culture is taken for granted. Capitalism may be an economic system but for it to function it has to be regarded as legitimate by the dominant culture. The culture of capitalism being legit is largely unquestioned and meta-narratives about the West liberating the rest of the world from communism and underdevelopment (I.e., the crusade of liberal democracy) has largely fed into the lack of American/Western criticality; Americans for example seem to be incredibly unaware of how this crusade is driven by nationalistic interests, especially for upper class white men. For how much educational and intellectual prowess the West claims, they have a phenomenal lack of self awareness of just how problematic and exploitative their dominant politics really are; probably because critical educational programs challenge the status quo and thus receive less funding.


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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Edited by Rhizomorph (04/30/22 09:00 PM)


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #27758573 - 05/01/22 10:12 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

"the West claims, they have a phenomenal lack of self awareness of just how problematic and exploitative their dominant politics really are"

They're VERY aware. They just don't give one single flying FUCK about it and praise doing so.:sad::mad2::scat:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27758675 - 05/01/22 12:22 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Capitalism sucks, but it absolutely is the best we have so far.  Someday, a better system will be invented.


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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 2
    #28075485 - 11/30/22 05:21 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I think this should be mandatory reading for anyone remotely interested in psychedelics. Thank you for writing and posting this. I could comment in more detail on specifics, but I'll be merciful and just keep it largely to this one quote:

"I've met far too many psychedelic-minded people who are completely convinced of their enlightenment, self-awareness, and humility, despite being complete assholes. There is an implicit assumption that psychedelics make people more altruistic and compassionate. Occasionally (and usually only when the set & setting is tailored to produce such results) this occurs, but outside these controlled settings, psychedelics just as often reinforce egocentricity."

This in particular stood out for me as a Zen priest and teacher. There are much the same issues with Zen practice (indeed most spiritual practice probably), which makes me wonder if the same kind of thing tends to happen with the psychedelic community, especially when money and perceived power enter the equation, which is happening now with so many corporate scumbags entering the scene. I'm a beginner when it comes to growing, not an expert and don't claim any expertise in either that, or psychedelics overall, but I do see much the same pattern as I do happening in some Zen centers. Such things attract some who want to be special (with the irony of course that we are all special, just not in the way that we tend to think we are), without doing any real work on themselves, often at others expense somehow (they have a habit of punching down), to get attention, to stand out and get some kind of unearned respect. In other words narcissistic types, or borderline narcissists, and those who have a deep, black hole of experiencing themselves as somehow insufficient and as just nothing of consequence.  Instead of working on that honestly and with some humility, these types will try to cover it all up with bullshit and pretend that the opposite is true - that they are really really accomplished, enlightened, holy people.

Such individuals would just be mildly irritating if they weren't also sometimes dangerous. They're the ones who get promoted upwards in some places, when they're found to be shall we say less than ethical. They tend to be good at self promotion and make it seem perfectly normal to charge steeply for their 'empathy' and 'teaching.' And yes, there are more than a few Zen teachers who fit this category. One I came across recently is notorious as a trademark troll in the video game industry. Now he's scamming the gullible as a Zen teacher who of course can talk at length about how enlightened he is and how holy. In Buddhism we call much of this and of what you wrote about 'spiritual materialism.' This includes the lack of understanding of systemic issues. For example of the oppression that is endemic in much of our economic, political and so called justice systems. Then there is the cultural appropriation and the twisting of what is essentially pointing at how the small ego self doesn't have to always be in control, to mimicking surrender of ego. Instead of seeing how I and you and that bird and this tree are so ordinary that they are extraordinary, in the true sense, the narcissistic, ill informed and lazily inadequate, pervert the message into being about them being special.These are also the grifters, the influencers talking bullshit, the ones who try to gatekeep psychedelics to only the priesthood of corporations, those who shamelessly hype anything, be it psychedelics or Zen practice as some sort of magic bullet. Also those who attempt to gatekeep, to keep this to only the medical and psychiatric professions. And lastly, the 'plastic shamans,' often white boys and girls who spend a few weeks or months in Peru, or LA, or do some crappy online course, and are suddenly enlightened teachers and spirit guides and have no idea of the cultures they are appropriating or what a real shaman, priest or medicine man or woman does.

So, this then is my long winded way of saying bravo for what you wrote, of the potentially dangerous, or confused types that it points to, and for saying it so clearly that it resonated deeply for me. And, again, this should be mandatory reading for just about anyone interested in psychedelics. Thank you.


Edited by johnukguy (11/30/22 05:31 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: johnukguy] * 1
    #28076697 - 11/30/22 05:55 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Thank you as well. Truly. I appreciate the way you write about these topics :grin:

As I read your comment, I started thinking about how narcissistic people tend to be attracted to these communities and blam, you mentioned it just after I was thinking about it. I think it was the book "Psychedelic Justice: Towards a Diverse and Equitable Psychedelic Culture" that originally introduced me to this phenomenon in the ayahuasca community.

I think both Zen/spiritualities - especially spiritualities deemed esoteric & idealized in western societies - and psychedelic cultures share a certain magical aura that attracts these people. When someone can claim a uniquely individual access to the mystical or divine, such that psychedelics or spiritual practice can theoretically provide, they can leverage their claimed access to exploit others. As you say, it can have dangerous consequences, especially because these experiences attract disproportional vulnerable people (e.g., those with mental illness or those seeking spiritual salvation from pain); psychedelics also make people inherently vulnerable as they impair people's judgment severely.

I think it was Huxley who called this feeling of unique & exclusionary knowledge the noetic quality. This quality may describe why people claim a guru/saint-type status and is even supported by neuroimaging research that has demonstrated how the locus coeruleus, an area in the brainstem responsible for novelty detection, is activated under the influence of psychedelics.

The best advice I try to give people first entering the psychedelic scene is to avoid idealizing psychedelics, gurus, shamans, cultural ideas within the psychedelic & spiritual community etc. In short, regard psychedelics and spirituality with a high degree of scrutiny. Of course, mentors can be an immensely valuable tool, but to do serious spiritual or psychedelic work, we need to take some level of personal responsibility by vetting our mentors

Love the discussion & thank you for your thorough engagement. The psychedelic community desperately needs more discussion around cultural issues within psychedelia as too often harmful cultures are taken for granted. I highly recommend this book as a necessary reading as well


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Edited by Rhizomorph (03/14/23 12:05 PM)


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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #28077507 - 12/01/22 07:05 AM (1 year, 1 month ago)

i thought this was gonna be a hate post so i didnt read it but i just did and i agree with almost everything you said in the OP:lol:


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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: mushboy]
    #28078235 - 12/01/22 02:31 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Perhaps I should soften the title haha.

Appreciate the positive feedback MB! :cheers:


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OfflineIce9
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #28078253 - 12/01/22 02:38 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:

2. Better than thou attitude

I've met far too many psychedelic-minded people who are completely convinced of their enlightenment, self-awareness, and humility, despite being complete assholes.



Too much to agree with in the OP.  But this soooo fucking much.  Holy shit I just want to punch these douchy assholes so hard.
:nodofunderstanding:


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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Ice9] * 1
    #28078261 - 12/01/22 02:43 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I don't see how being an asshole is inconsistent with being enlightened, self-aware, or humble.


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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #28078277 - 12/01/22 02:54 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

It's not.
It sill makes me want to punch them.
As I am enlightened, self-aware, humble and a raging asshole :crankey:


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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Warrk] * 2
    #28078461 - 12/01/22 05:16 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Warrk said:
It is heartening how a number of the world's ultra rich have decided to give away the vast majority of their wealth. In a way, power and wealth are not really things to desire because with power and money comes great responsibility. I wouldn't want that sort of responsibility not to mention having to be constantly on guard to protect oneself from harm. Like I said before, good and bad are kinda subjective and it all depends on one's frame of reference. Ultimately everyone goes through hardships, everyone suffers, everyone experiences fear, loss and grief. There is a bit of a Tall Poppy Syndrome when it comes to the rich and powerful I think, driven by our envy of them and causing plain old jealousy.




You do understand that everyone in this forum pays more of a percentage of our earnings in taxes than 99% of the rich and powerful, right?  You should also be aware that they become rich and powerful, generally not by being nice and paying employees very well, correct?  There are some exceptions to that, like Mark Cuban, and Bill Gates, but they are the outliers, not the common billionaires. 

You might think "That Patagonia guy gave away all his money", well, actually he moved it into a trust controlled by his family that can be used for political influence while still retaining control of the company.  In doing so he avoided $700 million in taxes on the $3 billion his company is worth, and still has control of everything.  So he was dodging taxes, and playing it off as philanthropy.  https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/sep/19/patagonia-owner-giving-away-company-for-climate-ch/

Billionaires are almost entirely evil scum sucking up all the money that their employees deserve.  An honest person doesn't become a billionaire, it's not selflessness and charity that creates billionaires.  It's people doing tons of work and the guy at the tops greed preventing them from being compensated justly for their efforts.


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Edited by Excess Taters (12/01/22 05:18 PM)


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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28078548 - 12/01/22 06:09 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

I don't even have a problem with disproportional income assuming disporoportional work is being done.

But regardless of credentials, I believe there are only so many hours in the day, so much physical, emotional, or mental labour a person is capable of, and the difference in capacity between the hardest worker in the world and the majority of entry level workers cannot be more than, let's say figuratively/conservatively, 5x as hard.

Therefore, there should be no reason someone makes more than 5x as much money (or whatever relative amount proportional to their working capacity) as the next person. Billionaires should not exist.

And this entire criticism of billionaires still assumes capitalist logic (I.e., hierarchies of economic control & meritocracy). I could probably write a whole essay on the myths of meritocracy, but I will entertain the idea just to show that the neoliberal argument fails even if meritocracy is assumed. We desperately need a baseline level of economic restrictions protecting the basic human rights of entry level workers. Problem is guaranteeing a livable income and access to healthcare in itself may challenge the very existence of billionaires...

An international minimum wage pegged to the value of each local currency would also help to resist the globalization of purist neoliberal agendas such as the way economic mobilization (to countries with lower minimum wages) is leveraged above developing/peripheral countries in global supply chains. They call it the "race to the bottom"; competing for lower wages so developed/wealthy nations will bring their business for cheap labour. I assure you that Bill Gates' economic ventures are very much complicit in these predatory practices.


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

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Edited by Rhizomorph (03/14/23 12:11 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Excess Taters]
    #28078572 - 12/01/22 06:18 PM (1 year, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Excess Taters said:
You do understand that everyone in this forum pays more of a percentage of our earnings in taxes than 99% of the rich and powerful, right?  .



This is almost certainly false


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