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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Posts: 16,449
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Kryptos]
    #27690693 - 03/11/22 08:24 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I’m a pure leftist. Not some let them eat diversity neo-lib. Class reductionism all day.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
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Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27691407 - 03/11/22 04:48 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Trying to explain the harms of cultural appropriation to right wingers is like trying to explain color to a blind man.



I always try to be optimistic of others' capacity to have open-minded conversations. The problem I see with many right-wing politics, or politics that otherwise assume class essentialism (e.g., class reductionism), is that, in the social sciences, these ideas have very poor predictive power in terms of tangible outcomes or strategies to address social harms and inequality. We see it time and time again...

This is the irony of mainstream views of social sciences as being "religious" or "interpretivist", is that social sciences, despite their problems, continually predict tangible/real-world social phenomena more reliably than just about any other viewpoint. It's also why, I would argue (not to discount bias as contributing to a proportion of the variance - but bias certainly does not account for the sum of the variance), the more educated people become, and the higher their IQ & emotional intelligence, the more left-leaning they become, generally speaking. Social scientists have grown increasingly frustrated with the dominant culture as they are expected to be both evidence based while also appealing to these dominant ideologies. Yet, the evidence supports left-leaning policies while the dominant culture supports a socially stratified status quo.

In social & cognitive psychology there is much research being done on persuasion, in-group associations, implicit out-group associations, and political identification. The Dual Process Model helps to understand how political/ideological beliefs are formed. Most people develop their political beliefs, or are persuaded by "type 1 thinking" or intuitive/gut-thinking. This type of thinking is generally more automatic/implicit, and generally favours heuristics, people or concepts that are likeable, or aesthetically pleasing, highly valent emotions such as anger or fear, and in-group associations, such as those with family, friends, co-workers, people in our own culture, race, etc. etc. And of course, is associated with a higher degree of conservatism, individualism and rejection of critical social theories.

The other type of thinking is type 2, which is more explicit/conscious, and driven by personality traits such as a higher need for cognition, reliance on evidence, rule-based, and rational thinking. Because the history of human evolution has largely taken place in small in-groups with high conflict, risk, and survival demands, type 2 thinking has become peripheral to type 1 thinking, which is why we see greater type 2 thinking among left-wing/educated people, as they have undergone targeted training to undo these cognitive tendencies.

This is why I'm not too surprised, and know to take a light-hearted attitude in response to TheFakeSunRa when he calls me a faggot for sharing empirically-validated academic sources or using jargon that goes over his head. The "explaining colour to a blind person" analogy applies well, yet it is more complex than simple semantic misunderstandings - it is a socioemotional misunderstanding rooted in human developmental history. Being able to recognize this interactional process between individual, society, and history, rather than just viewing the individual as dumb, is crucial - again, it is the sociological imagination at play; the ability to relate microsocial symbolic interactions to macrosocial contexts, history, and social psychology; unlike type 1 thinking, sociological imaginations are not inborn and require effort to learn.

Nonetheless it is quite a frustrating ordeal to have to develop persuasion strategies that target non-rational cues such as likeability and aesthetics over hard evidence in the context of global human sufferings, especially when you know that it is, in part, because people are born with a reliance on their "reptillian brain" (i.e., subcortical functions versus prefrontal cortex functions). It's why I try not to judge - these ideas stem from fear & emotional vulnerability so people often just can't help it. The unfortunate part is that while privileged white men with political power struggle to sort out the relationship between their amygdala and frontal cortex (which is ironically one of the developmental task of adolescents), the evidence unanimously highlights how their beliefs reproduce seriously awful global harms towards oppressed social strata.

Thus, it is necessary to find a balance of emphasizing the urgency while trying to reduce white shame so white people can recognize and begin to unlearn their role in the issue without resolving to defensiveness. This urgency often doesn't pair well with non-judgmental/non-confrontational approaches in the real world, however. :rolleyes:

At the end of the day, the best defense against foolishness is modelling emotionally mature behaviour, regardless of how others act :cookiemonster:


Edited by Rhizomorph (02/17/23 11:14 AM)


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 38,323
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27691462 - 03/11/22 05:44 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I'm loving it!:thumbup::heart::thumbup:
Great post!


--------------------


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
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Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #27691466 - 03/11/22 05:45 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Thanks!! :heart:
:thumbsup:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 16,449
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27692054 - 03/12/22 05:45 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Are you white?


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 16,449
Loc: Dirdy SOUF
Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #27692072 - 03/12/22 06:12 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

https://apnews.com/article/covid-business-health-ted-wheeler-poverty-edb884d8bf98e45b16372c1c8b7182e7

Quote:

Liberal US cities change course, now clearing homeless camps




This is where race and identity reductionism always leads. So-called academics crying about who said nigger or who used the wrong pronouns while the poor are constantly being shit on. The only justice is economic justice.

Quote:

empirically-validated academic sources




In other words, white liberals agree. You talk about cognitive development but you haven’t said one fucking thing that isn’t just a blanket regurgitation of the bullshit you “learned” in college.

Anybody can go to school and parrot their liberal professors who cry over bitch ass shit like Jan 6 and 9/11 or the Kennedy assassination.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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Invisiblejack_straw2208
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Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 3,115
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 2
    #27692665 - 03/12/22 03:41 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

This is a really good thread, action packed. You're both just lighting your farts on fire, beautiful and brilliant.

A dazzling cross section of internet culture, 10/10, would recommend to friends and family.


--------------------
If you can’t tell what you desperately need, it’s probably sleep.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
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Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: jack_straw2208]
    #27693363 - 03/13/22 03:28 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

jack_straw2208 said:
This is a really good thread, action packed. You're both just lighting your farts on fire, beautiful and brilliant.

A dazzling cross section of internet culture, 10/10, would recommend to friends and family.



Thanks jack_straw! I am thoroughly enjoying lighting my farts on fire for you and your family's entertainment

:awesomenod:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/13/22 03:47 AM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 1
    #27693364 - 03/13/22 03:30 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Are you white?



:canthelpbutlaugh::hahathatsfunny:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/13/22 03:33 AM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #27695237 - 03/14/22 04:15 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizomorph said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Trying to explain the harms of cultural appropriation to right wingers is like trying to explain color to a blind man.



I always try to be optimistic of others' capacity to have open-minded conversations. The problem I see with many right-wing politics, or politics that otherwise assume class essentialism (e.g., class reductionism), is that, in the social sciences, these ideas have very poor predictive power in terms of tangible outcomes or strategies to address social harms and inequality. We see it time and time again...

This is the irony of mainstream views of social sciences as being "religious" or "interpretivist", is that social sciences, despite their problems, continually predict tangible/real-world social phenomena more reliably than just about any other viewpoint. It's also why, I would argue (not to discount bias as contributing to a proportion of the variance - but bias certainly does not account for the sum of the variance), the more educated people become, and the higher their IQ & emotional intelligence, the more left-leaning they become, generally speaking. Social scientists have grown increasingly frustrated with the dominant culture as they are expected to be both evidence based while also appealing to these dominant ideologies. Yet, the evidence supports left-leaning policies while the dominant culture supports a socially stratified status quo.

In social & cognitive psychology there is much research being done on persuasion, in-group associations, implicit out-group associations, and political identification. The Dual Process Model helps to understand how political/ideological beliefs are formed. Most people develop their political beliefs, or are persuaded by "type 1 thinking" or intuitive/gut-thinking. This type of thinking is generally more automatic/implicit, and generally favours heuristics, people or concepts that are likeable, or aesthetically pleasing, highly valent emotions such as anger or fear, and in-group associations, such as those with family, friends, co-workers, people in our own culture, race, etc. etc. And of course, is associated with a higher degree of conservatism, individualism and rejection of critical social theories.

The other type of thinking is type 2, which is more explicit/conscious, and driven by personality traits such as a higher need for cognition, reliance on evidence, rule-based, and rational thinking. Because the history of human evolution has largely taken place in small in-groups with high conflict, risk, and survival demands, type 2 thinking has become peripheral to type 1 thinking, which is why we see greater type 2 thinking among left-wing/educated people, as they have undergone targeted training to undo these cognitive tendencies.

This is why I'm not too surprised, and know to take a light-hearted attitude in response to TheFakeSunRa when he calls me a faggot for sharing empirically-validated academic sources or using jargon that goes over his head. The "explaining colour to a blind person" analogy applies well, yet it is more complex than simple semantic misunderstandings - it is a socioemotional misunderstanding rooted in human developmental history. Being able to recognize this interactional process between individual, society, and history, rather than just viewing the individual as dumb, is crucial - again, it is the sociological imagination at play; the ability to relate microsocial symbolic interactions to macrosocial contexts, history, and social psychology; unlike type 1 thinking, sociological imaginations are not inborn and require effort to learn.

Nonetheless it is quite a frustrating ordeal to have to develop persuasion strategies that target non-rational cues such as likeability and aesthetics over hard evidence in the context of global human sufferings, especially when you know that it is, in part, because people are born with a reliance on their "reptillian brain" (i.e., subcortical functions versus prefrontal cortex functions). It's why I try not to judge - these ideas stem from fear & emotional vulnerability so people often just can't help it. The unfortunate part is that while privileged white men with political power struggle to sort out the relationship between their amygdala and frontal cortex (which is ironically the primary developmental task of adolescents), the evidence unanimously highlights how their beliefs reproduce seriously awful global harms towards oppressed social strata.

Thus, it is necessary to find a balance of emphasizing the urgency while trying to reduce white shame so white people can recognize and begin to unlearn their role in the issue without resolving to defensiveness. This urgency often doesn't pair well with non-judgmental/non-confrontational approaches in the real world, however. :rolleyes:

At the end of the day, the best defense against foolishness is modelling emotionally mature behaviour, regardless of how others act :cookiemonster:




I dunno man. I've largely given up converting right wingers. It's one of those side benefits of being a cis white male: the US could go full fash and I'll be fine. I'd probably be even better off, actually. Society won't, but I will. At least in relative terms. I expect quality of life to go down across the board. That has nothing to do with politics, it's just economic reality at this point.

In reality, I think the US will collapse to some form of right wing single party ecofascism over the next few decades. I expect the talking points of "we must reduce the resource consumption of everyone else outside of the haves in the US at any cost" to start becoming more common around the 2028 elections.

I would also expect republicans to co-opt some form of class reductionism in an effort to create more Bernie/Trump voters. Probably a misguided attempt, TBH. In my opinion, Obama/Bernie/Trump voters are less "moderate" voters and more "do what the charismatic guy says" voters.


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27695311 - 03/14/22 05:28 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

cis




lol


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Other


Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27695677 - 03/14/22 09:47 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
In reality, I think the US will collapse to some form of right wing single party ecofascism over the next few decades.



I'm not sure about that. Not that I don't think it is possible, but I think predicting that scale of political change is like trying to predict the stock market. It necessitates some fairly elaborate systematic political analyses and few experts doing this type of work believe this. But I see where the concern comes from.

I believe it is more likely that liberal sciences will uncover greater evidence that contradicts republican/conservative politics but expanding technological industrialism and technological fear- and attention-based economies will engage with dominant right wing politics to allow for more covert resistance to left-wing evidence-based social programs. For example, how under surveillance capitalism, capitalism has seen an increase in data commodification as big data is a relatively new phenomenon with uncharted legislature, making it ripe for the exploitation of capitalism as a project programmed to endlessly expanding and search for new capital (think venture capitalism). I believe it was Haggerty and Ericson who called this the Surveillant Assemblage and even compared it to rhizome/mycorrhizal mycelial networks :mushroom2: - where one surveillance route gets cut off, the sytem branches out finding new avenues, populations, etc. to surveil. and subsequently capitalize off of this surveillance by selling the information to those who generally support right-leaning status quos. I would personally compare it to AI systems that, when you tell them to play a game by the rules, the AI manages to find bugs in the logic of the game to break the game, and make it work in their favour (in life, the rules are human rights policies and the AI is capitalism, in this analogy).

In this sense it could also make sense to view conservatism as a hydra - cut off one head and two more pop up; and of course, this is driven by commodity fetishism, including privacy as a commodity. Thus, as new evidence surfaces in favour of decolonization, economic socialization, etc., capitalism and white supremacy will find more covert ways of resisting these projects through novel industrial and ideological developments. This pattern isn't new...

We saw a similar pattern with post-industrialism and the globalization of culture which explained why a Marxist revolution never occurred - coincidentally Marx himself was a class reductionist and didn't account for what (at the time) was a cultural resistance to his left-wing economic theory produced by culture industries; culture industries tend to support right-wing ideologies as these ideologies are more profitable. And so, the consumers of culture are socialized to believe in these ideologies. It is also agreed upn by most historians, political scientists, etc. that this is partially why the Nazi party was so successful -> Hitler took the industrialization of culture into his own hands to produce an ultranationalist aryan identity. Likewise, today we see technology further industrializing culture in more illusory and covert ways.

I think it is hard to dethrone the left's power of evidence today though, especially after what we know abut how important social sciences are in preventing totalitarianism (such as the World Wars), and even at the far reaches of knowledge commodification, knowledge confronts the individual with responsibility, and at least a large portion of scientists have the humility to address this concern and sidestep mainstream taken for granted perspectives. Meanwhile, the right's capitalization of culture is also very powerful as sciences themselves are still socially stratified and take place under the foot of cultural engineers (to use McKenna's words).

Really all I see is an ever-growing trend of pluralism consistent with post-modernism and post-structuralism. Of course I take these theories with a grain of salt given their pragmatic limitations with regards to the usefulness and arguably necessary function of meta-narratives in some contexts (if social meaning is subjective, how do we come to standardized conclusions??). But, understanding how meta-narratives are in decline relatively/generally is where these theories are useful in my opinion. What is scary to me is the resistance of these problematic ideologies through increasingly covert means. Like a ghost in the shadow lurking behind the smile of our friendly neighbour, doctor or the memes on our cellphones...

Fuck society is weird and interesting :awesomenod:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/14/22 09:59 PM)


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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 2
    #27750251 - 04/25/22 05:40 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Interesting points in the original post and all true.

The 5 main points are the same as what you will find in any subculture and any online group though. There is always a diversity of qualities in people, different levels of education, different political stripes, different personality types, different motivations...

This forum being an English-based one means there is a bias for all things Western and explains why Leary, Huxley and Co. are better known than Sabina. If we were to join an online Spanish or Japanese shroom message board there would be ethno-cultural biases there too which is only natural.

I would also add that there is nothing special about the psychedelic community and its people are no more enlightened than any other group. People are attracted to and use mushrooms for different reasons and it could be nothing more than a a fun thing to do and a chance to trip balls. Not everyone is into introspection and gaining insights into self and the world at large through psychedelics. Then there are those who use shrooms to treat depression and/or anxiety, while others are habitual drug users/abusers looking for any substance to get high.

There is no reason why people in the psychedelic community should be more scientifically-minded or why they should be held to a higher standard than everyone else, it is an expectation I had too once had which has mostly led to disappointment. More than anything else, being tolerant and kind are the best things we can do in groups like this - not to try to change others or to convince them that our views are correct.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Warrk] * 1
    #27750829 - 04/25/22 03:18 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

These are really good points.

However, my observations, and I would contend that the observations of most of my peers & many experts in the social sciences have found these issues to be disproportional between psychedelic communities and the regular population.

Of course every culture has an in-group focused enthno-cultural bias. But I'm curious as to which ethno-cultural biases you are referring to within Spanish & Japanese cultures specifically that could override the influence of the dominant culture? The reason I ask this is because there is substantial evidence that the dominant (Western) culture does makes its way into subordinated cultures, whereas the reverse cannot usually be said, generally speaking. The cultural industry, and by extension, the psychedelic cultural industry often tends to overshadow subordinated cultures; we have to consider these power dynamics. Bear in mind that culture is objectively situated in a dialectic relation between structure-agency

Food for thought: If every white person knows about Huxley and only 10% of them know about Maria Sabina, whereas every Mexican person knows about Maria Sabina & knows about Huxley, both groups still have an ethno-cultural bias, but through structure-agency relationships, the dominant culture still exerts a coercive power over subordinated groups in this situation (these numbers are obviously rhetorical and simply reflect the disproportional historical literacy between these groups; with white people generally being less literate on the politics outside the west) I'll bet if you went onto a Japanese speaking forum where they were discussing psychedelic medicine, a lot of discourse would still be around Huxley and Leary. Indeed, white people have the privilege of not needing cultural capital to have equal opportunities in a Eurocentric economy; Mexican people for example, will likely know their own history, but are compelled (via the impact of structure on agency) to learn about white histories as these histories carry greater cultural capital given the power of white culture.

In fact, this is evidenced by the fact that most of the scientific journals and news press around psychedelics are Western-focused; counternarcotics agreements between the more developed nations and less developed nations also prevents research on psychedelics in other areas of the world. Thus, neocolonial power relations have shaped not only culture, but also where scientific and thus cultural production is allowed to take place.

As such, I don't see how pointing out that every group has an in-group bias is relevant given these power dynamics.

I can only draw upon personal experience here, but I cease to see how psychedelic people don't disproportionately view themselves as "enlightened" or otherwise develop ego-serving attitudes around psychedelics. The same problem exists in many spiritual communities at large and psychedelics have become culturally embedded within spiritual practice (and especially pseudo-mysticism). Could you elaborate further on what you mean by this point?

In terms of your point on being held to a scientific standard, I think you may have misunderstood. I am by no means saying that we should hold psychedelic people to a higher standard; I think my post is consistent with the fact that we should hold them to an equal standard. Again, the reason I selectively highlight the psychedelic community is because the culture of pseudo-mysticism, cultural appropriation, etc. is disproportionately unscientific compared to the overall population. The existing discourse analyses & ethnographic studies of psychedelic media & culture has reliably demonstrated that scientific literacy is lower for psychedelic people on average (even if not directly - the authors probably can't ethically call white psychedelic users uneducated). Even if this is a sub-culture (the ultra spiritual bypassing anti-vax hippy characterization), it still shifts the overall cultural distribution towards the unscientific prejudices of this sub-group.

I'm happy to be kind and tolerant of people's views that aren't a threat to others' wellbeing. But the point of this post is to speak out about the non-evidence-based cultures that produce social harm. Why would I be tolerant of discriminatory cultures?

If we want a true psychedelic renaissance society we have to engage in psychedelic activism & justice. Psychedelic cheer-leading is not sufficient to call ourselves a renaissance society. I'm not just gonna stand by while psychedelic therapy patients are getting sexually assaulted, Indigenous histories are being erased, venture capitalists are selling a cure to the problems they've created through stratifying the social order & mainstreaming a psychedelic culture that benefits some at the expense of others, etc.

Obviously the issues of white supremacy are ubiquitous, but they also congregate around psychedelic cultures given the white-dominant medical framework and appropriation of psychedelics from Indigenous peoples, historically and currently. At the end of the day, I think it's far more important to share a voice that contradicts the white status quo than to say "sure but this effect is everywhere"; tying apart the nuances is key and there's already an over-abundance of perspectives that don't seek to understand the interactions between race, substance use, structure, and various other social factors; we prefer to take culture for granted which more often than not stems from our privilege of not being afflicted by the harms of these cultures.

In sum, where you seem to imply that my post expects too much, presumably because psychedelic cultures are no different from the rest of people regarding some of these points, my argument is that I am actually holding psychedelic culture to an equal expectation given that psychedelic culture has plenty of evidence (which I'll include below) suggesting it actually disproportionately contributes to the points I made in my OP.

Here's some interesting reads by experts in the field that generally support my argument:
Culture, Context, and Community in Contemporary Psychedelic Research: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/806100/summary
Decolonizing Psychedelics: https://chacruna.net/decolonizing_policy_psychedelics/
Addressing Power and Privilege in Psychedelic Medicine:: https://chacruna.net/blinded-by-the-white-addressing-power-and-privilege-in-psychedelic-medicine/
Monnica Williams' List of Publications (including the intersection of race & psychedelics): https://monnicawilliams.com/publications.php
Psymposia's various articles & podcast on psychedelic capitalism, culture, surveillance, etc.: https://www.psymposia.com/

Thanks for your great insight! :awesomenod:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/14/23 11:53 AM)


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 2
    #27753037 - 04/27/22 07:44 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Thanks for writing this Rhizomorph! Brilliant thread


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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27753889 - 04/27/22 07:08 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Why are these issues disproportional in the psychedelic community, is there research done on this? Does psychedelic use lead to these things being more prevalent among users, or are certain personality types more attracted to the use of psychedelics?

A culture is dominant because it works for most people, I cannot envisage a situation where every culture has an equal footing and there is parity. Maybe one day we will all revert to a hunter-gatherer economy, or all speak Mandarin, who knows. Cultures and are interwoven with each other, are dynamic and constantly evolving to meet present needs, fashions come and go...

Also, why would you hold psychedelic people to the same standards as the wider community? If psychedelic people are representative of the community at large, ok, maybe that expectation is a valid one. But if the psychedelic community is overrepresented in the areas of lower education standards, lower socio-economic status, dysfunctional family backgrounds, greater mental health problems including illusions of grandeur and delusional thinking, greater risk taking and greater criminality etc... Then what?


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Warrk] * 2
    #27754179 - 04/27/22 09:08 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Warrk said:
Why are these issues disproportional in the psychedelic community, is there research done on this? Does psychedelic use lead to these things being more prevalent among users, or are certain personality types more attracted to the use of psychedelics?



Sign up to this group and see what they have to say about psychedelic culture: https://groups.google.com/g/mapsgrad. This is a group created for graduate & PhD holders who research psychedelics to share information regarding their research & practice. These phenomena are widely recognized by these experts.

Research Abuses Against People of Colour in Psychedelic Research: https://www.monnicawilliams.com/articles/Strauss_ResearchAbuses-inpress.pdf
This article discusses the various cultural issues pertaining to psychedelics including cultural appropriation: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2021-38657-001
The Psychedelic Renaissance and the Limitations of the White-Dominant Medical Framework: https://www.monnicawilliams.com/articles/George_PsychedelicRenaissance-inpress.pdf

There are many more articles like these of course. I already shared that psychedelics promote activity in the locus coeruleus (associated with suggestiveness to new information), and there's plenty of research showing that psychedelics make people more suggestible by increasing trait openness (read up on the Big 5 personality traits). The relationship between psychedelics and openness is bidirectional - you're free to search this information up yourself though as I've already included more than sufficient research to back my claims I'd argue :thumbup:

Quote:

Warrk said:
A culture is dominant because it works for most people, I cannot envisage a situation where every culture has an equal footing and there is parity. Maybe one day we will all revert to a hunter-gatherer economy, or all speak Mandarin, who knows. Cultures and are interwoven with each other, are dynamic and constantly evolving to meet present needs, fashions come and go...



You're basically suggesting the Davis Moore thesis, which is outdated & heavily criticized. functional/structuralist theories of the sort you describe simply don't have the predictive capacity to explain the sheer extent of global inequality. Sure, perfect cultural equality is over-idealistic, but that's not the point of striving for cultural equality. The structuralist view of cultural inequality as functional for the dominant group doesn't explain why human rights violations occur and doesn't offer any solution to serious offenses of these human rights. The functional view of dominance maintains relations of human rights exploitation at a global scale. The question many philosophers & sociologists of the past asked in responded to Davis Moore's hypothesis was "sure inequality may just be an inherent part of life, but why does it need to be so severe? why does there need to be so much of it? What do we do about all the people being victimized and brutalized as a result of this type of inequality?". It is insufficient to just call inequality functional and call it a day; it is overly-simplistic and doesn't reduce any real-world social problems.

I can assure you that the idea that the dominant culture works for most people simply is not true. It works for most people in a given social class, geography, or status. The majority of the world is Asian yet the dominant culture is Eurocentric, for example. The same goes for the majority of wealth, cultural production, etc. The global north is actually a small minority who disproportionately controls cultural production.

You asked me to provide research, so I will ask you to do the same: where are you getting the information that the dominant culture achieves social utility? I sure hope it isn't the dominant culture itself (for obvious reasons :tongue:)

I trust the cultural & social theorists on this one. They are very cognizant of the interactional nature of culture that you point out, yet none of them believe the dominant culture is fair, functional, or even effectively utilitarian as you suggest (whereas utilitarianism has its own problems, even if cultural inequality did achieve social utility, which it does not).

Quote:

Warrk said:
Also, why would you hold psychedelic people to the same standards as the wider community? If psychedelic people are representative of the community at large, ok, maybe that expectation is a valid one. But if the psychedelic community is overrepresented in the areas of lower education standards, lower socio-economic status, dysfunctional family backgrounds, greater mental health problems including illusions of grandeur and delusional thinking, greater risk taking and greater criminality etc... Then what?



Then they are still expected to be a morally good person. I can empathize with the mental health problems of an individual while also condemning their immoral cultural practices ya know.

We shouldn't become tolerant of abusive cultures that reproduce mental illness disproportionately for society's most vulnerable groups just because the people that exercise these cultures are also mentally ill. This creates a viscious cycle of lacking accountability where anyone who does wrong can just chalk it up to their own hardships.

I hold the psychedelic community to the same standard because I expect everyone, regardless of class or status, to be a good person by not participating in some seriously awful cultures. I'm not just going to give someone a pass for promoting Nazism because they have a diagnosis of depression for example. They're still an asshole. As a training therapist, if this type of individual wants my empathy, I'm happy to be empathetic in discussions about their depression. My empathy has no place in their support of Nazism though; I expect them to change this belief.


Edited by Rhizomorph (12/27/22 11:24 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Bardy]
    #27754205 - 04/27/22 09:21 PM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Bardy said:
Thanks for writing this Rhizomorph! Brilliant thread



Thank you Bardy! Glad you appreciate it!

:billymaythumbup:


--------------------

:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #27754462 - 04/28/22 02:49 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

I'm not interested enough to want to sign up to other groups but thought I would challenge your assumptions and perspectives.

One thing I am constantly reminded of is if we expect a certain standard of others, are we also applying those same standards to ourselves? Are we not also unwittingly supporting oppressive, destructive practices (and corporations and governments) through the choices we make each day? From the clothes we wear to the food we eat and the electronic devices we use? How about the electricity we consume and the coal that produces it?

Even if we decide on a vegetarian or even a vegan diet, being aware of the fact that rainforests in the Amazon are being bulldozed in order to grow soy should give us pause for thought.

I am not a sociologist and know nothing about that discipline or about Davis Moore. My take on why things are the way they are comes from a evolutionary biology angle.The myriad of life forms that exists on this planet is due of the interplay of many factors but ultimately species continue to exist because they have traits that are useful and allow their survival. Whether that concept is easily translated to the social and cultural side of things I cannot say and have no expertise in.

I have not been on this forum as long as some old-time members but I've hung around long enough to know that hardly anyone changes their beliefs as a result of interactions on here. It is almost like an echo chamber at times, with little sub-groups forming and where all sorts of weird shit is entertained if not embraced. For me personally, I'm kinda perplexed how a shroom user could be a supporter of Trump, in my world that would seem diametrically opposed lol.


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Offlinewolf8312
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Warrk] * 2
    #27754484 - 04/28/22 03:49 AM (1 year, 8 months ago)

Quotes from the OP:


Quote:


There are a significant number of neo-Nazis who practice entryism to recruit people from psychedelic communities. This is largely successful considering that both parties often sit outside the dominant culture and share similar oppositions to political structures.




Do you have anything to back that assertion up? 

Quote:

Moreover, psychedelic research & use in the West has largely appropriated psychedelic-related practices from Meso-American Indigenous cultures. This is exemplified by the lack of credit, involvement of, and intellectual ownership attributed by white people to Indigenous cultures and peoples.





Again, some examples of what/who you are talking about here would help here to clarify things.

Quote:

It is also too common for underground psychedelic service providers to appropriate various cultures' symbols, beliefs, practices, etc. into a cultural hodgepodge for the setting of the psychedelic experience they are providing.




Do all cultures not appropriate aspects of other cultures into their own especially when the intention is to make a given product (in this case an Ayahuasca ceremony) seem more exotic and mysterious? Have the indigenous people not appropriated certain aspects of western culture? And isn't that just the inevitable consequence of one culture coming into contact with a different one?

Why do you think that kind of 'cultural appropriation' is a bad thing (surely not white supremacist?) as opposed to an 'imitation is the best form of flattery' kind of compliment? Are these people not embracing/celebrating the indigenous culture?

Does my holding an ayahuasca ceremony in my own country borrowing symbols and rituals that I have learned from a shaman in the Amazon really do that Shaman and his community any harm?

Or are we just -neoliberally- designating one group as victim to legitimize a morally superior condemnation and attack upon their imagined oppressors (sinister white supremacists among the psychedelic community)?

Quote:

Lastly, the history of psychedelics are often understood by white and European people in terms of Western histories. Indeed, more attention is given to Huxley, Timothy Leary, Sidney Cohen, Gordon Wasson, Humphrey Osmond, Albert Hoffman etc. than people of colour such as Maria Sabina (who Wasson appropriated the Mazatec mushroom ceremony from and shared with the U.S. without her permission), the Santo Daime or Native American Church, or the advanced epistemologies and medicinal practices of the Shipibo and other Indigenous groups native to the Andes, rainforest, Africa, and many other areas.




But you cannot copyright a mushroom ceremony can you? It's rather like saying I taught that bastard how to drive a car, and he went home and taught all his mates how to do it too. White supremacist prick!

Quote:

I've met far too many psychedelic-minded people who are completely convinced of their enlightenment, self-awareness, and humility, despite being complete assholes. There is an implicit assumption that psychedelics make people more altruistic and compassionate. Occasionally (and usually only when the set & setting is tailored to produce such results) this occurs, but outside these controlled settings, psychedelics just as often reinforce egocentricity.




But is it not implicit in this very thread, that in pointing all these things out that people in the psychedelic movement (if such a thing even really exists) have not realized about themselves, you yourself -a member of that movement- have transcended them all, and are therefore more enlightened, humble and self-aware than everyone else?

Quote:

The extent to which the psychedelic movement is de-legitimized through association with irrelevant and downright bizarre ideologies or beliefs is unfortunate. Radical anti-vaccine sentiment, conspiracies, beliefs that psychedelics can cure every ailment from A-Z, or can heal your energies (whatever this means), and many other "alternative" or "holistic" forms of healing with no evidence-base are all examples of this.





Magical and bizarre thinking kinda just goes with the territory taking psychedelics though mate. Though I'd argue anyone who believes the nonsense in the mainstream media (especially woke Neoliberals) are also delegitimized through their association with bizzare ideologies/beliefs and conspiracies.

It is certainly not the psychedelic movement that we need to worry about IMO. 

I have never seen the psychedelic movement rampaging through American cities like Mao's red Guards, destroying things and hurting innocent people!

I'm just wondering if this a genuine concern about white supremacy in the psychedelic community (which is a real reach) or just another attempt to inject divisive/toxic Neoliberal ideology into the discourse here on the shroomery?


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown



Edited by wolf8312 (04/28/22 04:50 AM)


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