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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks * 14
    #27677086 - 02/28/22 03:42 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Why 'psychedelic people' and the psychedelic movement really kind of sucks


Now don't get me wrong - I should preface that I am very involved in the psychedelic movement as a researcher, policy advocate, and an enthusiast in some instances; I love all things psychedelic... Despite this love, there are some serious issues with the types of people attaching themselves to the psychedelic movement.

The Shroomery is of no shortage of these types of people in my experience. Of course, there are many Shroomery members who are not complicit in these issues. Nonetheless, I'm sure this post will be controversial, but I've included the major issues I see with much of the psychedelic movement and psychedelic people - not withholding myself from these issues - and some of the people/ideas on this forum and elsewhere.

1. White Supremacy & Cultural Appropriation


There are a significant number of neo-Nazis who practice entryism to recruit people from psychedelic communities. This is largely successful considering that both parties often sit outside the dominant culture and share similar oppositions to political structures.

Moreover, psychedelic research & use in the West has largely appropriated psychedelic-related practices from Meso- and South-American Indigenous cultures. This is exemplified by the lack of credit, involvement of, and intellectual ownership attributed by white people to Indigenous cultures and peoples.

It is also too common for underground psychedelic service providers to appropriate various cultures' symbols, beliefs, practices, etc. into a cultural hodgepodge for the setting of the psychedelic experience they are providing. Although appropriation may be mutual in some instances, more often than not, the mainstreaming & globalization of psychedelics exists in specific contexts/power relationships that results in misrecognition of the cultural lineages of these substances. This misrecognition produces real-world harms to the cultural integrity of traditional, religious, & Indigenous uses of psychedelics.

Trans-nationally, it is common for white people in developed nations to travel to drug-tourism hot spots and partake in ceremonies in exchange for goods or currency. Although this is thought to be a consensual process, neo-colonialism shapes trans-national power dynamics that confuse the nature of these relationships. I'm not saying traveling to Peru to drink ayahuasca with the Shipibo people is wrong - but that the neo-colonial relations are often poorly understood if considered at all by the travelers doing this.

Lastly, the history of psychedelics are often understood by white and European people in terms of Western histories. Indeed, more attention is given to Huxley, Timothy Leary, Sidney Cohen, Gordon Wasson, Humphrey Osmond, Albert Hoffman etc. than people of colour such as Maria Sabina (who Wasson appropriated the Mazatec mushroom ceremony from and shared with the U.S. without her permission), the Santo Daime or Native American Church, or the advanced epistemologies and medicinal practices of the Shipibo and other Indigenous groups native to the Andes, Mexico, rainforest, Africa, and many other areas.

2. Better than thou attitude


I've met far too many psychedelic-minded people who are completely convinced of their enlightenment, self-awareness, and humility, despite being complete assholes. There is an implicit assumption that psychedelics make people more altruistic and compassionate. Occasionally (and usually only when the set & setting is tailored to produce such results) this occurs, but outside these controlled settings, psychedelics just as often reinforce egocentricity.

Many erroneously believe that ego-dissolution will make people humbler. Yet, too often people return to normal waking consiousness and upon reconstruction of the self, the self apparently latches onto what memory they have of the experience to justify a superiority-complex; "I existed without a self then, so now I must be able to see through the illusions of the ego". True humility doesn't assume that the psychedelic experience makes one any more or less humble - there is something between the time that the ego dissolves and reforms that determines this - that thing is our own self-reflective judgment that funnels through the ego, regardless of past ego-dissolution. When the ego reforms, the judgments we make of the psychedelic experience are still subject to the self-serving nature of the ego.

In short, where many people need to check their ego, psychedelic users need to check their ego-death.

3. Ignoring or cherry-picking science


The extent to which the psychedelic movement is de-legitimized through association with irrelevant and downright bizarre ideologies or beliefs is unfortunate. Radical anti-vaccine sentiment, conspiracies, beliefs that psychedelics can cure every ailment from A-Z, or can heal your energies (whatever this means), and many other "alternative" or "holistic" forms of healing with no evidence-base are all examples of this.

Here's a direct example from a Shroomery member (I usually wouldn't out a specific member but this member was very rude and disrespectful to multiple Shroomery members including myself just for sharing differing views on their theory, so I don't mind highlighting their comment):
Quote:

AngryStork said:
Do you think any of the psychedelic mushrooms that we have now could be senesced versions of a superpotent mushroom that could've been a hallucinogenic direct message from aliens?




These ideas are not too surprising considering that psychedelics artificially increase novelty detection through neurobiological mechanisms (activation in the locus coeruleus in the brainstem). I.e., that 'lightbulb' feeling you get when you discover some new information and grasp a new concept; especially when it is information that feels like it is specially endowed upon us individually and others don't have access to it. In our day to day lives, this is a bottom-up process that stems from external stimuli. But, psychedelics, through their influence on neural activity, makes this process top-down (i.e., not dependent on external stimuli, but instead produced by the internal effects of the drug).

In short, psychedelics make people very open and suggestible to new information, regardless of the validity of that information.

4. Psychedelic commercialization


(I fully acknowledge my left-leaning bias on this point)

Many want to believe that psychedelics could fundamentally shift people's attitudes to be more compassionate towards outgroup members (which research has shown is associated with people who are politically left-leaning) and more likely to resist authority or become anti-capitalist. Yet, many people take psychedelics for the first time and rather than their first thoughts being "wow, this could help so many other people!" their first thought is "wow, I could make a ton of money off of this!".

Truly, psychedelic corporations (corporadelics) such as COMPASS Pathways, MindMed, etc. are engaging in various commercial practices that intend to patent certain psychedelics, syntheses, organic intermediates, etc. as well as data-fying clients and standardizing psychedelic treatments into 'production-line' styled treatments that maximize profit. Many of these corporadelic actors also have the material means to curb mental health problems to a much greater extent by decreasing financial inequality across the masses (lots of these companies have shares in, partnerships with, or co-founded junk health product lines where employees are barely paid a livable wage)

5. Psychedelic Mainstreaming


Gwyneth Paltrow's Netflix show, the Goop Lab is a great example of this. Her show is loaded with psuedoscience and often serves to direct consumers to her personal product line. It is also extremely white-washed but I will let you come to your own conclusions about how this happens by watching the show yourself (or don't if you want to avoid subjecting yourself to frustrating illustrations of psychedelic science & medicine)

The psychedelic renaissance is not just gaining attention by scientists and interested individuals, but also the public mainstream culture. This has some benefits such as positive publicity, but carries with it all the prejudices, pseudoscience, systemic problems, oppressive narratives, stigma, sensationalism, negative publicity, etc. that is inherent to the mainstream. Psychedelics often don't fit well with the status quo (insofar as they are not being commercialized for economic benefit of the middle and upper classes). The mainstream is likely to report predominantly on psychedelics where their use and publicity supports the status quo.

This issue leads into many of the previous issues where psychedelics are usually represented in ways that support white supremacy (favouring European histories), commercialization (advertising), and many other dominant ideologies with commercial or ideological interests.

Conclusion


To conclude, none of these issues strictly undermine the therapeutic, entheogenic, or recreational legitimacy of psychedelic use. But, to construct the equitable, accesible, and evidence-based paradigm for psychedelic healing & access most of the Shroomery likely envisions, these are the issues I believe need to be tackled.

Psychedelic cheer-leading is already in abundance. If unguided, psychedelic cheer-leading is likely to reproduce the very harms we are trying to treat with psychedelics. What we need now is social justice, evidence, and humility.

To quote the Auryn Project's webcomic, We Will Call it Pala: "It was clear that patients were so eager for psychedelic treatment that they would waive nearly all their privacy rights away. There is no medicine strong enough to blow a corporation's mind. We can look around today and see many psychedelic business models. But what we really need are psychedelic models for business - business that defines new standards for integrity, equity and ethics; business reimagined with a technicolor glow.

What vision do you hold in your heart for a psychedelic future? What will you do now, while you can, to see that it is realized?"

EDIT: Many people have asked for sources supporting these criticisms, so here are mutliple works by experts in the field that support these points:

Culture, Context, and Community in Contemporary Psychedelic Research: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/806100/summary
Chacruna's website (see: "Psychedelic Justice" at the top of the webpage): https://chacruna.net/
Decolonizing Psychedelics: https://chacruna.net/decolonizing_policy_psychedelics/
Addressing Power and Privilege in Psychedelic Medicine:: https://chacruna.net/blinded-by-the-white-addressing-power-and-privilege-in-psychedelic-medicine/
The Dark Side of the Shroom: https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/anoc.12154
Right-Wing Psychedelia: Case Studies in Cultural Plasticity: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34975622/
Monnica Williams' List of Publications (including the intersection of race & psychedelics): https://monnicawilliams.com/publications.php
Psymposia's various articles & podcast on psychedelic capitalism, culture, surveillance, etc.: https://www.psymposia.com/

Can everyone reading this thread who wishes to criticize my post please look through the thread history before posting? I welcome all criticism but when I have to repeat myself it inhibits the generation of new ideas and a productive flow of discourse directed towards a teleological resolution.

Let's generate some new ideas/criticisms by informing ourselves on those criticisms that have already been made & build off them rather than repeat them


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/06/23 11:40 AM)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 3
    #27677106 - 02/28/22 03:58 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Might be more relevant in the drug policy subforum, but things don't get seen in there.

A number of these issues could be solved by simply removing the medicalization aspects of legalization. Legalization has always been closely tied to "medical benefits", and some advocates are very careful to refer to weed and shrooms as "medicine". While there is almost certainly a medical reason to consume weed/shrooms, the majority of legalization advocates/users (in my experience) simply wanna get high without committing crimes.

This doesn't really address the capitalistic concerns that will always be present in a capitalist economy, but it does address your second, third, and fifth points pretty directly. Or, at the very least, it decouples legalization from the more problematic aspects of those points.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27677116 - 02/28/22 04:12 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Yeah I wasn't certain which forum to post it to. The drug policy subforum seems to get like 1 new post a month and like 5 views from what I've seen haha. If mods want to move it they can though :thumbup:

I personally don't have a problem with medicalization so long as it is not at the expense of concurrent legalization. Although medicalization is largely a topic of structural changes, issues of mainstreaming, superiority complexes, and white supremacy, etc. are cultural and will thus make their way into the legalization movement as well.

There are definitely areas where the medical model is more complicit in these issues, but I believe that these issues are not inherent to one model or the other.

I think legalization will help, but I don't think it is sufficient alone to solve most of these issues if we don't also try to change psychedelic culture as a whole, to be more humble and aware.

I'm obviously drawing broad connections here as the same could be said about most of society - white supremacy for example is ubiquitous across society. I'm mainly focusing on how it congregates in psychedelic communities due to the suggestible nature of psychedelic consciousness. And that this is despite the assumption that psychedelics challenge white supremacy. I'm really just trying to challenge the implicit assumptions people have of psychedelics more than anything.

Just the fact that psychedelic research and drug policy reforms are predominantly taking place in the West while policy agreements between developed and underdeveloped nations prevent legalization movements' efficacy in underdeveloped nations (where knowledge of these drugs often originated) is evidence enough that white supremacy occurs in legalization efforts.

The actors behind the movement don't have to be white supremacists for white supremacy to occur if the reforms take place in just so happen to be temporally and spatially embedded in colonial relations (Western nations reforming first, with developing nations following afterwards).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Interesting to think how all these structural & individual actions combine to shape overlapping systems of social change :takingnotes:


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/25/23 11:17 PM)


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InvisibleTheDrake
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27677273 - 02/28/22 06:32 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I really don't see the problem with people who grow or manufacture drugs to get paid for their time, effort, and risk of imprisonment.
if you took away profit there would be a huge decline in the amount of people who would have access to a psychedelic experience.


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InvisiblePsicomb
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheDrake]
    #27677279 - 02/28/22 06:46 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

There needs to be trailblazers providing psychedelic medicine to the people via the black market but with that said it's a very fine line between that and selling out.  They even blur together quite often.


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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
- nick sand


Edited by Psicomb (02/28/22 07:28 PM)


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27677282 - 02/28/22 06:50 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

  It is also too common for underground psychedelic service providers to appropriate various cultures' symbols, beliefs, practices, etc. into a cultural hodgepodge for the setting of the psychedelic experience they are providing.




They look goofy but the woke perspective that this actually causes harm is even goofier.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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OfflineVP123
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Psicomb] * 6
    #27677305 - 02/28/22 07:09 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Your post raises an issue that often receives little attention. Psychedelics are often praised as being the least harmful drugs, which may be true in the sense of physical effects. They are also touted for their value in treating some mental conditions.

What needs further research is their potential to mislead users in the belief that they, somehow, have become more aware of reality when in fact, they could be falling into delusional thinking. This probably goes along with the arrogance that occurs when someone believes that,  somehow they have become better and more enlightened than others. Could this be related to the embracement of pseudoscience, conspiracy theories and white supremacy we often see in the forums?

It is not easy to ascribe a cause and effect here. However, it needs to be researched and better understood. Rushing to promote these substances without fully understanding the issues mentioned above pose potential problems.


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InvisiblePsicomb
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: VP123] * 1
    #27677328 - 02/28/22 07:25 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

It's pretty scary to think about for sure.  Dr Janiger described in their studies back 60 years ago how people could often be easily influenced by others while under the influence of LSD regarding decision making and beliefs.

the book LSD, Spirituality, and the Creative Process has some documented trip reports from those studies that detail that vulnerability in thinking


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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
- nick sand


Edited by Psicomb (02/28/22 07:27 PM)


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OfflineSaltine
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Psicomb]
    #27677333 - 02/28/22 07:30 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

groups are gay and stupid, uncreative people, all look, act, and talk the same. NPC-like. low bit rate, as mckenna would say.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheDrake] * 4
    #27677449 - 02/28/22 08:49 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheDrake said:
I really don't see the problem with people who grow or manufacture drugs to get paid for their time, effort, and risk of imprisonment.
if you took away profit there would be a huge decline in the amount of people who would have access to a psychedelic experience.



Oh certainly. My criticisms were more focused on psychedelic therapy paradigms that have the primary goal of accumulating capital (especially excessive levels of capital) at the expense of peoples' wellbeing. Obviously producers, psychotherapists, doctors, legal, and administrative professionals should all be paid for their work.

I intend to become a psychedelic-assisted therapist, but my core intentions are client-centered. Income is peripheral to my intention to improve clients' wellbeing for example, not the reverse.

Patenting organic compounds that occur naturally in mushrooms or data-fying clients is not client-centered if you ask me. These actions are for the sole purposes of making money. I encourage you to read up on the Auryn Project's webcomic I linked - it explores some of the issues that may present if access models for psychedelic use takes on a predominantly privatized business format.


Edited by Rhizomorph (02/28/22 09:52 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: VP123]
    #27677471 - 02/28/22 09:11 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

VP123 said:
What needs further research is their potential to mislead users in the belief that they, somehow, have become more aware of reality when in fact, they could be falling into delusional thinking.

It is not easy to ascribe a cause and effect here.



Wholeheartedly agree. As you point out, ascribing cause and effect is very challenging. Many of these criticisms are cultural in nature.

As with many studies on the effects of culture (e.g., by sociologists and critical theorists), positivism (methods that include empirical assessments) can too often become nearly impossible to employ in "soft sciences" due to the lack of reliable measurement tools that are otherwise utilized in "hard" sciences. This is precisely why social theory relies more on interpretative methods and outcomes agreed upon by the expert consensus - when positivism cannot be employed (because culture is arbitrary, dynamic, and subjective), interpretive & consensus-based epistemologies are the next most reliable tool. Is this truly evidence-based? Hard to say... I'd argue these qualitative interpretations of culture are a necessity for lack of more reliable methods.

I don't claim my cultural assessment to be perfect though. Not least this one I spontaneously wrote up while I was bored.

Nonetheless, many cultural effects generally stand the effect of time. certain aspects of religion, government, and power relations (e.g., white supremacy and dichotomies between structure and individual agency or dominant and subordinated narratives) are reasonably consistent across society. The criticisms in my OP are mere considerations and must be understood deferentially in each social context, however.

I think culture is largely taken for granted by the average person as social theorists like Stuart Hall would suggest, or for a psychedelic-figure many Shroomery members would know, Terence McKenna. This effect is especially true for psychedelic users who may feel they are enlightened and somehow "beyond" culture(s). The irony is that many, including myself, while listening to Terence McKenna, are tapping into the exact feeling of novelty that so often makes us feel "woke".

Even talking about these issues, I have to be careful not to gatekeep knowledge and continually self-reflect so as to keep my ego(-death) in check. I'm certain that in between mindfulness, my ego latches onto these ideas regardless. Taking a large dose of mushrooms certainly won't be a magic cure for this either (not that it couldn't help - but it could go either way and I'm sure will never eliminate this effect). It's a never-ending process of learning & unlearning.


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (02/28/22 09:19 PM)


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OfflineKROM
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #27677547 - 02/28/22 10:13 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I needed to/ need to read this. Posting so I can remember where to look when I’m less sleepy.:heart:


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🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼    🄲 🄻 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅆 🅁 🄰 🄿


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InvisibleTheDrake
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 1
    #27677763 - 03/01/22 01:02 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Oh I gotcha. I thought you were being one of those people that says "mushrooms should be free man. Mushrooms are too sacred to be sold"

Any time the drive for high profits mixed in with well-being/medical rarely works out best for the patient.


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheDrake] * 3
    #27678502 - 03/01/22 04:21 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheDrake said:
Oh I gotcha. I thought you were being one of those people that says "mushrooms should be free man. Mushrooms are too sacred to be sold"

Any time the drive for high profits mixed in with well-being/medical rarely works out best for the patient.



Nah anything with material worth should be free for sale - but hard restrictions should be placed where human rights, well-being, etc. are concerned. The infinite expansionism inherent in neoliberal policy means capitalism will commodify anything it can, including human well-being if gone unchecked. This is why 'absolute' free market strategies aren't really free in my opinion - they are explicitly shaped by power dynamics that reproduce and capitalize off of human suffering.

I have no problem with neoliberalism to the extent that it doesn't undermine well-being. Of course, there are areas where the line between free markets and well-being is unclear... It seems obvious to me that neoliberalism has to be met with some level of restriction though, at least in the psychedelic movement where the outcomes are predominantly aimed at basic human needs (health) and rights (cognitive liberty). Economic restrictions should be data-driven from a health- rights- and well-being-focused standpoint, not the other way around. Afterall, capitalism is supposed to serve the essential/basic interests of everyone, no?

If mushrooms were "too sacred to be sold", it would be impossible to build sustainable capacity to safely and widely share them with those who benefit the most from their sacredness. The key is that profits should flow downwards from integrity first and foremost


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/20/22 08:13 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 2
    #27683288 - 03/05/22 12:47 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

  It is also too common for underground psychedelic service providers to appropriate various cultures' symbols, beliefs, practices, etc. into a cultural hodgepodge for the setting of the psychedelic experience they are providing.




They look goofy but the woke perspective that this actually causes harm is even goofier.



Do stereotypes and their resulting prejudices and policy-outcomes not constitute harms?

It sounds like you're implying cultural representations have no morally significant political or social outcomes. Critical social theory almost unanimously acknowledges the harmful macrosocial influences of cultural appropriation on subordinated social groups...

I get that it seems a distant concept (goofy), but this is because social life is often taken for granted; humans are generally born socially competent, but not sociologically competent. We did not evolve to understand post-industrial globalized societies - we developed to survive in comparatively minuscule groups - we developed an in-group bias. Thus, we have an inborn proclivity to overemphasize individual/micro-level explanations at the expense of situational/macro-level explanations when characterizing social phenomena. This is both a sociological (see: Durkheim's sociological imagination) and a psychological (see: the empirically validated fundamental attribution error) effect. It takes specialized sociological training to unpack these prehistoric common sense judgments.

Thankfully, critical theory has self-reflective criticality baked into the core of it's theoretical orientation (see: Michel Foucault on knowledge & power) so I believe it does a decent job of avoiding being overbearingly "woke" in acknowledging, and ethically wielding the inherent power in its own epistemic methods and power to produce/utilize knowledge. Not to say it is immune to this, but it certainly doesn't epitomize "wokeness" either... It's less, or at the least, equally woke as most other ideologies due to this theoretical cornerstone.

TL;DR: If we are to align with the evidence, cultural appropriation is harmful. If social science is "a woke perspective... that is goofy" as you say, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree :shrug:


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:cookiemonster: Major Issues in the Psychedelic Movement: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks:elmo:

:awesomenod: Easiest No-Pour Agar Method: Alien's Holy Grail No pour Agar unmodified containers:awesomenod:


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/05/22 12:53 AM)


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph] * 2
    #27683337 - 03/05/22 02:52 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I’ve read Foucault

White people invented the automobile. White people invented the airplane.

I’m sick of other races appropriating our shit. They should just fucking walk.

Or, maybe, we could just borrow and enjoy each other’s culture and quit pretending it causes harm.

White guy wears a doorag. Omg what a shameful appropriation. Hippy wears Indian shit. Thief!

Just the way your post is such a bunch of word salad gooblygook tells me you’re doing mental gymnastics to justify getting uptight about nothing. But before you respond I get it, white people bad. I’ve heard. :yawn:


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 1
    #27683342 - 03/05/22 02:56 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

  Do stereotypes and their resulting prejudices and policy-outcomes not constitute harms?




Yes. That’s why we need dispense with the stereotype that whites are cultural thieves when it’s healthy and normal for cultures to borrow from each other. Even if you’re white. The idea that whiteness is inherently bad harms white people. Especially children.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Other


Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 2
    #27684295 - 03/05/22 07:54 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Just the way your post is such a bunch of word salad gooblygook tells me you’re doing mental gymnastics to justify getting uptight about nothing. But before you respond I get it, white people bad. I’ve heard. :yawn:



When simplifying it to "social theory supports claims to white supremacy" it evidently goes over your head. Thus, it is perspectives like yours that force people to become pedantic as discrimination sits in the very teeth of unscientific prejudices. If you have read Foucault or any of the Frankfurt scholars' works you wouldn't be repeating that white people suffer from appropriation in remotely the same way subordinated groups do. This type of thinking is the real dead horse and is certainly older and more repetitive in the dominant culture comparatively :yawn: (Side note: How about we skip out on the passive aggressive yawning and using words like "gooblygook" so the conversation remains objective, credible, and mature?)

Anyhow, my professors don't seem to think my writing is word salad in my sociology and psychology papers + thesis - maybe you just have trouble understanding academic jargon? I wouldn't blame you, but in this case, I urge you to avoid criticizing a language you don't speak. I don't criticize the grammar of Japanese speakers...

But I won't argue with somebody who is clearly just spreading dominant oppresive ideologies... Confrontation only serves to reinforce prejudices... I don't hope to change your mind - only to highlight for other readers how white supremacy makes its way into psychedelic circles, as evidenced by your comments.


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/05/22 08:48 PM)


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InvisibleRhizomorph
Psychedelic Researcher
Other


Registered: 04/24/20
Posts: 785
Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 2
    #27684316 - 03/05/22 08:16 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Quote:

  Do stereotypes and their resulting prejudices and policy-outcomes not constitute harms?




Yes. That’s why we need dispense with the stereotype that whites are cultural thieves when it’s healthy and normal for cultures to borrow from each other. Even if you’re white. The idea that whiteness is inherently bad harms white people. Especially children.



Journal Article: "What is (the wrong of) Cultural Appropriation?": https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1468796819866498
Quote: "Cultural appropriation is about power’, says one critic, ‘that empowers white people to take whatever they want’ (Anyangwe, 2018)"
Quote: "Here, the wrong stems not simply from the ongoing structural injustice to which blacks are subject, especially in the United States, but also from the ways in which American blacks have been subject to injustice for all of their history"

Journal Article: "Does Cultural Appropriation Cause Harm?": https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/21565503.2019.1674160?needAccess=true
Quote:Cultural appropriation is often called a buzzword and dismissed as a concept for serious engagement" - this is essentially what you're doing by not examining intersectional relations between different groups with a focus on structural power (inequal between minorities and white people) versus individual agency (oriented at both minorities and white people)

If appropriation is a structure-level issue (as validated by various construct analyses; I.e., statistical analyses of structure-level data. Or to simplify -> using statistics to prove social interactions that are big rather than small :rolleyes:) then white people will not suffer from it.

Some more word salad for you, from the scholars themselves: "Exploitation, in this case, is structural since what matters is not only an unfair transaction between two parties, where say one cultural piece is undervalued in a face-to-face transaction, but rather a structural imbalance of power produced by injustice in the political and social environment (Zwolinski 2012). Appropriation masks power imbalances as it appears that society is accepting the culture" as I said, culture taken for granted... "since cultural imagery and names are being sold and shared widely but, in reality, these cultural materials may not reflect the culture accurately and most often do not financially benefit the culture, but the dominant culture at large."

So if white people are stereotyped as being cultural thieves, they will only suffer at the microsociological (small) level, equivalent to that of minorities. But considering that they benefit at the macrosociological (big) level, and these benefits are disproportionate, white people ultimately benefit -> efforts to undo this "stereotype" would only serve to protect white people from microsociological harm at the expense of accountability for their complicit reproduction of macrosociological harms. If this is too pedantic for you then put simply, undoing the narrative of white people perpetrating appropriation harms would only compound structural racism. In effect, doubling down on racism to protect white people in day-to-day interactions from feeling bad for racism

This could all be simplified if you understood the basic concept that racism is structural whereas prejudice is individual. But your comments necessitate that I provide a deeper explanation as they assume that white people suffer from cultural appropriation, a structure-level problem.


Edited by Rhizomorph (03/05/22 08:35 PM)


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 16,449
Loc: Dirdy SOUF
Re: Why 'Psychedelic People' and the Psychedelic Movement Sucks [Re: Rhizomorph]
    #27684355 - 03/05/22 09:02 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Wow. College. Dude, I’ve read all those fuckers.

I read it before it became your religion. When it was still interesting.

To say I wouldn’t think that if I had read this and that is stupid. It reminds me of another poster who didn’t believe I travelled extensively in the third world.

Idgaf if your professors think you can write. So did mine. And what I wrote wasn’t just regurgitated woke code religion. I’ve always been radical.

White people are fucking awesome. The rest of the world is our bitches.

Even the way you write is pure imperial white boy whiteness wonder bread super whitey. So good for you.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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