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Invisiblenooneman
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The Official Ukraine War Thread. * 12
    #27671584 - 02/24/22 11:31 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

At the request of Near Dylan. Discuss Argue and propagandize here.

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InvisibleFiery
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: nooneman] * 4
    #27671591 - 02/24/22 11:36 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Anybody else seeing a giant conspiracy theory developing, first with China releasing the Corona Virus and then Russia invading Ukraine...Both of them with a massive long term plans to exert their world dominance?

It's really interesting that Russia launched massive cyber DDOS attacks all over Ukraine right before and leading up to and into the invasion.

It's a blatant middle finger to Ukraine and the entire world, because they are not part of NATO so NATO can't really step in



I hate to say this, but this thing has the workings of the start of world war 3.


FUor fucks sake I thought we had more time .

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Fiery] * 4
    #27671598 - 02/24/22 11:40 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Nah, we're right on schedule if you believe in the 70 year cycle theory.

Personally, I think the cycle is related to life expectancy: once most of the veterans die off and living memory fades, the war begins again.

If I was you, I'd start working on a plan to avoid getting drafted.

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OfflineMorphinTime
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: nooneman] * 2
    #27671615 - 02/24/22 11:47 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Looks grim.  I think Putin made a stupid move, but not WW3 stupid.  Sanctions won't cripple Russia.

As far as conspiracy theories, I don't think that covid is a part of any global domination plan.  We've probably been able to manufacture much more scary bioweapons for a long time. 

I think Russia is securing resources and strategic position.  Nobody wants WW3, nobody sane at least.


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27671616 - 02/24/22 11:47 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Biden is live right now blabbing about it



I'm sure putin is quivering over some sanctions and empty threats

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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: feevers] * 4
    #27671630 - 02/24/22 11:59 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Biden can't get through one sentence without fumbling his words or making a statement that makes no sense grammatically.

What an embarrassing leader to have right now..


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Invisibleinsanebloodbrain
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan] * 2
    #27671637 - 02/24/22 12:04 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Given the terrible choice, i would feel more confident with Trump as the POTUS in this situation. Bidens drooling-tarded inability to speak feels very unreliable and unsecure lol. He sounds like hes going to pull a Stalin and suddenly run and hide in disbelief and shock

Edited by insanebloodbrain (02/24/22 12:09 PM)

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OfflineMorphinTime
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: insanebloodbrain] * 3
    #27671652 - 02/24/22 12:18 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Imagine if presidential candidacy required an IQ test.  Imagine if education in the US was better funded.  Imagine if furthering your education didn't seriously indebt you.  We could do this.  But we don't. :sad:


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: insanebloodbrain] * 3
    #27671668 - 02/24/22 12:30 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

insanebloodbrain said:
Given the terrible choice, i would feel more confident with Trump as the POTUS in this situation. Bidens drooling-tarded inability to speak feels very unreliable and unsecure lol. He sounds like hes going to pull a Stalin and suddenly run and hide in disbelief and shock



If Trump was president he'd either have left NATO and allied with Putin, or would've launched nukes at them by now


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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #27671674 - 02/24/22 12:32 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

insanebloodbrain said:
Given the terrible choice, i would feel more confident with Trump as the POTUS in this situation. Bidens drooling-tarded inability to speak feels very unreliable and unsecure lol. He sounds like hes going to pull a Stalin and suddenly run and hide in disbelief and shock



If Trump was president he'd either have left NATO and allied with Putin, or would've launched nukes at them by now


if trump was president we would not be having this conversation. Like i said biden is weak president an its time for china an Russia to make moves while they have the chance.

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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: MorphinTime] * 1
    #27671678 - 02/24/22 12:34 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MorphinTime said:
Looks grim.  I think Putin made a stupid move, but not WW3 stupid.  Sanctions won't cripple Russia.

As far as conspiracy theories, I don't think that covid is a part of any global domination plan.  We've probably been able to manufacture much more scary bioweapons for a long time. 

I think Russia is securing resources and strategic position.  Nobody wants WW3, nobody sane at least.




Their stock market is down over 50%


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

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OfflineMorphinTime
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: budmanman] * 1
    #27671760 - 02/24/22 01:33 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I think they were well aware of that being an eventuality before the decision was made to attack.  Ukrainians and Russians and a lot of Europeans will suffer initially (economically), but sanctions won't cripple Russia.

I am not pro Russia, BTW.

Ukraine might be the last land grab NATO allows without outright military getting sent to action.  Idk, seems like the Cold War is hot again


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OfflineDeepfreeze
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: MorphinTime] * 2
    #27671936 - 02/24/22 04:17 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Worst part no one helping! History repeats itself. Just 7 years ago Maidan happened and what West did? Oh we condemn the use of force... It's like telling a child don't touch matches and then turning away from it. Bunch of c***. It's not the leaders who are suffering it's the people. Every country which became independent from former USSR shed blood and no one came to help. Just look at the history of 90's.
Anti-war protests in Russia and ppl getting arrested!
Putin needs to be stopped

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Deepfreeze] * 2
    #27671976 - 02/24/22 05:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deepfreeze said:
Just 7 years ago Maidan happened and what West did?



The US orchestrated Euromaidan.  Evidence here.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineEnkidu
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #27671994 - 02/24/22 05:15 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Good thing you changed the thread from the original "discuss" :lol:

Man what the fuck

Why can't we just live our fucking lives without all these fuck heads fucking shit up

Guess this is what happens when we live the way we live


--------------------
Within You , Without You


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OfflineBlue Cthulhu
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Enkidu] * 1
    #27672047 - 02/24/22 05:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think it would have been unreasonable for the US to have agreed to never incorporate Ukraine into NATO. It's on Russia's border, for God's sake, of course they don't want NATO right up their ass. Maybe a better historian can answer this, but didn't the US agree to not expand NATO anyway sometime around the end of the Cold War?


--------------------
:musicnote:  :royalrainbow:
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Blue Cthulhu] * 1
    #27672060 - 02/24/22 05:58 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Cthulhu said:
I don't think it would have been unreasonable for the US to have agreed to never incorporate Ukraine into NATO. It's on Russia's border, for God's sake, of course they don't want NATO right up their ass.



Exactly.  :thumbup:

Quote:

Blue Cthulhu said:
Maybe a better historian can answer this, but didn't the US agree to not expand NATO anyway sometime around the end of the Cold War?



The US agreed not to expand NATO eastward around the time East Germany reunited with West Germany.

West promised not to expand NATO


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineBlue Cthulhu
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27672083 - 02/24/22 06:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Thank you! Obviously already violated since Poland is a NATO member.


--------------------
:musicnote:  :royalrainbow:
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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Blue Cthulhu] * 1
    #27672096 - 02/24/22 06:19 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Russian today site not loading.


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Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Blue Cthulhu] * 1
    #27672119 - 02/24/22 06:31 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Cthulhu said:
Thank you! Obviously already violated since Poland is a NATO member.



Not just Poland.  Here's a map of countries that have joined NATO since our promise.  You can see why Russia wouldn't want Ukraine to join:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: budmanman] * 1
    #27672133 - 02/24/22 06:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

budmanman said:
Russian today site not loading.



Ya, it was down for a bit.  I can load it again.

Calls to ban RT in UK show what politicians really think of free speech


--------------------
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27672224 - 02/24/22 07:57 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

So it's time for them to reclaim the motherland or what ?

Patiently waited


--------------------
Within You , Without You


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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Enkidu] * 1
    #27672273 - 02/24/22 08:38 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Watch "The REAL Reason Putin is Invading Ukraine" on YouTube

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InvisibleArchStanton66
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 3
    #27672355 - 02/24/22 09:49 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Ukrainians mounting a respectable defense right now compared to the odds they are currently facing. Seems that the Russians are, for the time being, mounting as light of an offensive as possible as they move to encircle Kyiv (where I assume the end goal would be to install a pro-Russian government).

Could be to keep from making a bad situation worse as far as international community sanctions are concerned in keeping Nord Stream 2 / SWIFT access viable in the nearer term.

Not even certain if removal from the SWIFT system is actually on the table given the reliance on Russian oil/nat gas in the EU. Nothing like knee-capping yourself with reliance on foreign energy from, of all people, Vladimir Putin.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Enkidu] * 1
    #27672360 - 02/24/22 09:52 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enkidu said:
So it's time for them to reclaim the motherland or what ?

Patiently waited



:justno:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27672484 - 02/24/22 11:59 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The US agreed not to expand NATO eastward around the time East Germany reunited with West Germany.

West promised not to expand NATO




I'm not convinced this is some sort of smoking gun that proves much :shrug:

In the minutes of that meeting, this was also said
Quote:

'We could not therefore offer membership of NATO to Poland and the others. We might however consider referring to our interest in these countries in future NATO declarations.'



That doesn't sound like an unwavering promise that carries any weight to me?


Also NATO's website says

Quote:

Claim: NATO promised Russia it would not expand after the Cold War

Fact: Such an agreement was never made. NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949 – and that has never changed. This “Open Door Policy” is enshrined in Article 10 of NATO’s founding treaty, which says “any other European State in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic” can apply for membership. Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies. No treaty signed by the United States, Europe and Russia included provisions on NATO membership.

The idea of NATO expansion beyond a united Germany was not on the agenda in 1989, particularly as the Warsaw Pact still existed. This was confirmed by Mikhail Gorbachev in an interview in 2014: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all, and it wasn't brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up, either."

Declassified White House transcripts also reveal that, in 1997, Bill Clinton consistently refused Boris Yeltsin's offer of a 'gentlemen's agreement' that no former Soviet Republics would enter NATO: "I can't make commitments on behalf of NATO, and I'm not going to be in the position myself of vetoing NATO expansion with respect to any country, much less letting you or anyone else do so…NATO operates by consensus."



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27672573 - 02/25/22 03:11 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think there is any point to try to argue with Falcon or Ecstatic that we didn't promise to not expand NATO eastward. They both think that the fact that any such agreement was made without the OK of the President of the United States (Clinton or HW Bush) is not relevant.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27672579 - 02/25/22 03:26 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

That's right, it's beyond bureaucrats to be able to offer such an assurance so it's a redundant argument :shrug:

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OfflineEnkidu
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27672582 - 02/25/22 03:32 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enkidu said:
So it's time for them to reclaim the motherland or what ?

Patiently waited



:justno:




What the fuck are you shaking your head at


--------------------
Within You , Without You


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InvisibleFiery
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Enkidu] * 1
    #27672585 - 02/25/22 03:37 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enkidu said:


What the fuck are you shaking your head at






My eyes.


Quote:

Shooting bullets, the swords pronounced from their nutshell cased lives with the energy of the mullet. The ocean fishes, fast becoming like a flash, exploding in population, driving fast along the coastline. These bullets and swords, getting lost and found again in nets and the mouths of sharks become like bone meal, grinding through with their power, going back to where they came from.  This energy of force and evolution, much like a fire, yet so compacted and so confined like pure water in a glass, or a bottle of wine tipping over and spilling onto the floor with a shatter. SO fast and so delicious, so deadly and so pretentious the changing force upon them echoes with the boom as a spark ignites in a small tube and sends a heavy element into a heart, bursting it like a balloon.



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: insanebloodbrain] * 1
    #27672666 - 02/25/22 06:17 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

insanebloodbrain said:
Given the terrible choice, i would feel more confident with Trump as the POTUS in this situation. Bidens drooling-tarded inability to speak feels very unreliable and unsecure lol. He sounds like hes going to pull a Stalin and suddenly run and hide in disbelief and shock




WTF!??  Stalin can be criticized for a lot of things, but running and hiding was never on the list. I would ask you to explain that comment, but it's probably not worth anyone's time.

If Trump was President, the Generals would be explaining to him, the way you talk to a child, that no we aren't going to assist with the invasion to liberate Ukraine. Trump has been cheerleading Putin on this, and he's trying to backtrack now, but even most Republicans are wishing he would just shut up.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ArchStanton66] * 1
    #27672718 - 02/25/22 07:15 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ArchStanton66 said:
Ukrainians mounting a respectable defense right now compared to the odds they are currently facing. Seems that the Russians are, for the time being, mounting as light of an offensive as possible as they move to encircle Kyiv (where I assume the end goal would be to install a pro-Russian government).

Could be to keep from making a bad situation worse as far as international community sanctions are concerned in keeping Nord Stream 2 / SWIFT access viable in the nearer term.

Not even certain if removal from the SWIFT system is actually on the table given the reliance on Russian oil/nat gas in the EU. Nothing like knee-capping yourself with reliance on foreign energy from, of all people, Vladimir Putin.


im hopping Ukraine can hold Russia off until other countries are able to step in an try an make Russia back off.

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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27672722 - 02/25/22 07:20 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

insanebloodbrain said:
Given the terrible choice, i would feel more confident with Trump as the POTUS in this situation. Bidens drooling-tarded inability to speak feels very unreliable and unsecure lol. He sounds like hes going to pull a Stalin and suddenly run and hide in disbelief and shock




WTF!??  Stalin can be criticized for a lot of things, but running and hiding was never on the list. I would ask you to explain that comment, but it's probably not worth anyone's time.

If Trump was President, the Generals would be explaining to him, the way you talk to a child, that no we aren't going to assist with the invasion to liberate Ukraine. Trump has been cheerleading Putin on this, and he's trying to backtrack now, but even most Republicans are wishing he would just shut up.


face it if trump was in office Putin would of never attempted this. Putin knows trump is fast to respond an is as calculated as Putin is an they had a mutual respect.

After seeing how biden handled Afghanistan Putin seen weakness from American an seen the opportunity to gear up for an invasion.  He knows biden is slow to respond an hes weak on top of that.

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OfflinetheRealrollforever
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27672734 - 02/25/22 07:43 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

@bj
It's hilarious how you infer the generals WOULDNT BE TALKING to biden the exact same way.


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.

Edited by theRealrollforever (02/25/22 07:44 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 2
    #27672819 - 02/25/22 09:17 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
@bj
It's hilarious how you infer the generals WOULDNT BE TALKING to biden the exact same way.




Sort of, Biden's slow witted too, except Biden wouldn't be on Putin's side. I'm thinking grasping the obvious is not one of your strong points.

Also, the things you capitalize and don't capitalize, are you trying to recreate the Sex Pistols album cover or something? Never mind.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27672827 - 02/25/22 09:29 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Trump is too rich and greedy to let someone else rule the world


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #27672830 - 02/25/22 09:34 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

He's greedy, but he's getting less rich by the minute paying his defense attorneys.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27672833 - 02/25/22 09:39 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

face it if trump was in office Putin would of never attempted this. Putin knows trump is fast to respond an is as calculated as Putin is an they had a mutual respect.

After seeing how biden handled Afghanistan Putin seen weakness from American an seen the opportunity to gear up for an invasion.  He knows biden is slow to respond an hes weak on top of that.





      What happened to us not being the worlds police ?  I get you will blame Biden for literally anything anyone else chooses to do all on their own ,  but why do you think we should be part of this at all ? Why should Americans die ?    Why do you want to see American soldiers die over this  is what I mean ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 3
    #27672870 - 02/25/22 10:13 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The thesis I see from a lot of Republicans is that by virtue of Trump being in office, none of this would have ever happened because Trump is just so powerful that he doesn't even need to do anything, he would have just prevented it.

Of course, he does need to plant his ass in the right chair. Apparently, he does not have that same power in the wrong chair.

A bit like the pope.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #27672936 - 02/25/22 10:57 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
@bj
It's hilarious how you infer the generals WOULDNT BE TALKING to biden the exact same way.


these generals told biden the right way to evacuate Afghanistan. Instead he ignored there advice an ended up making huge mess🙄. There is no excuses for how bad of a fuck up it was.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27672964 - 02/25/22 11:19 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The thesis I see from a lot of Republicans is that by virtue of Trump being in office, none of this would have ever happened because Trump is just so powerful that he doesn't even need to do anything, he would have just prevented it.

Of course, he does need to plant his ass in the right chair. Apparently, he does not have that same power in the wrong chair.

A bit like the pope.



I think a big part of why Putin is emboldened was the whole oil thing.  I'm not claiming to be an authority and I'm sure I will be informed how I am wrong, but gas has been steady climbing for the two years since biden took office.  At the same time we have put a "halt/freeze" on domestic energy drilling due to "climate concerns".  I am more concerned with the fact we have to buy oil from a dictator that is leaning towards starting the Third World War opposed to climate changes. Every dollar we have to send to Russia for oil is essentially weakening us and strengthening them.

Not to mention it looks like they will be allying with China pretty soon outright.  For a Third World War I believe China has to be involved, and now they are.  If there's a perfect storm, it's probably having to go up against the Chinese economy and the Russian military while being unable to really hurt their economy due to the sheer dependency we have on essential goods from those countries

:justdontknow:


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.

Edited by theRealrollforever (02/25/22 11:23 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27672974 - 02/25/22 11:24 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

face it if trump was in office Putin would of never attempted this. Putin knows trump is fast to respond an is as calculated as Putin is an they had a mutual respect.

After seeing how biden handled Afghanistan Putin seen weakness from American an seen the opportunity to gear up for an invasion.  He knows biden is slow to respond an hes weak on top of that.





      What happened to us not being the worlds police ?  I get you will blame Biden for literally anything anyone else chooses to do all on their own ,  but why do you think we should be part of this at all ? Why should Americans die ?    Why do you want to see American soldiers die over this  is what I mean ?


like i said before if trump was in office putin an china would not be making moves like they are doing now.

Trump made it very clear to Russia if you invaded Ukraine we would hit Moscow. Then he told the leaders of china the same thing he will hit them were it hurts.

This was a good deterrent so neither County would want to call his bluff.

What has biden done besides run his mouth?

-Afghanistan shit show.

-shut down our oil production so we rely on other countries an put 1000s of people out of work.

-shity economy you are paying way more for everything.

-weak policys

-weak borders

-his biggest mistake never under estimate your enemies. He talk about how Russia is nothing to worry about an we should all focus on green energy an bla bla.


Trump

-good economy

-No wars when he was in office

-good policys that dint try an kill our economy

-was fast at getting a vaccine made for covid

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #27672980 - 02/25/22 11:30 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
The thesis I see from a lot of Republicans is that by virtue of Trump being in office, none of this would have ever happened because Trump is just so powerful that he doesn't even need to do anything, he would have just prevented it.

Of course, he does need to plant his ass in the right chair. Apparently, he does not have that same power in the wrong chair.

A bit like the pope.



I think a big part of why Putin is emboldened was the whole oil thing.  I'm not claiming to be an authority and I'm sure I will be informed how I am wrong, but gas has been steady climbing for the two years since biden took office.  At the same time we have put a "halt/freeze" on domestic energy drilling due to "climate concerns".  I am more concerned with the fact we have to buy oil from a dictator that is leaning towards starting the Third World War opposed to climate changes. Every dollar we have to send to Russia for oil is essentially weakening us and strengthening them.

Not to mention it looks like they will be allying with China pretty soon outright.  For a Third World War I believe China has to be involved, and now they are.  If there's a perfect storm, it's probably having to go up against the Chinese economy and the Russian military while being unable to really hurt their economy due to the sheer dependency we have on essential goods from those countries

:justdontknow:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #27673020 - 02/25/22 11:59 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
The thesis I see from a lot of Republicans is that by virtue of Trump being in office, none of this would have ever happened because Trump is just so powerful that he doesn't even need to do anything, he would have just prevented it.

Of course, he does need to plant his ass in the right chair. Apparently, he does not have that same power in the wrong chair.

A bit like the pope.



I think a big part of why Putin is emboldened was the whole oil thing.  I'm not claiming to be an authority and I'm sure I will be informed how I am wrong, but gas has been steady climbing for the two years since biden took office.  At the same time we have put a "halt/freeze" on domestic energy drilling due to "climate concerns".  I am more concerned with the fact we have to buy oil from a dictator that is leaning towards starting the Third World War opposed to climate changes. Every dollar we have to send to Russia for oil is essentially weakening us and strengthening them.

Not to mention it looks like they will be allying with China pretty soon outright.  For a Third World War I believe China has to be involved, and now they are.  If there's a perfect storm, it's probably having to go up against the Chinese economy and the Russian military while being unable to really hurt their economy due to the sheer dependency we have on essential goods from those countries

:justdontknow:




Well, your first mistake is the idea that the US has shut down oil production. Oil production in the US is the highest it has ever been. The US is now energy independent. Biden has only stopped leasing new federal land for new oil rigs. The rigs that have already been there are running full tilt and new rigs are being put on private land daily.

The US barely buys any Russian oil. Russian imports were 7% of total oil imports in the US last year.

Buying oil for USD from Russia doesn't actually hurt the US all that much, because we control the USD. What is Russia gonna do with USD? The much bigger concern, right now, is that Russia is actively getting rid of its USD holdings and buying up gold and other currencies. That gives us less leverage over their economy.

Finally, Russia and China have been working together for some time now. They did joint military exercises while Trump was in office, and China has clearly given tacit approval, or at least the promise of not getting in the way of, Putin's war. I'm guessing they also have some deal worked out where China will start buying oil that the EU and US stop buying. The scary thing is that they will likely buy that oil for gold, instead of using USD like every other oil deal in the world. This means the USD won't be as dominant, which hurts the US economy.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27673021 - 02/25/22 12:00 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe if we all start riding our bikes everywhere putin won't be so mean


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb] * 1
    #27673035 - 02/25/22 12:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Why is gas the most it has been in years then?  I don't understand why the price would rise when the supply is the "highest it's ever been"

If you could link to something to make me feel better about the situation like you do it would be awesome.  I'd love to feel like there is nothing to worry about.


--------------------


sunshine said:
The order has to be secret and no one is sure.

Edited by theRealrollforever (02/25/22 12:10 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #27673043 - 02/25/22 12:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Why is gas the most it has been in years then?  I don't understand why the price would rise when the supply is the "highest it's ever been"




Because demand is also the highest it's ever been, and for the last two years, demand has been artificially lowered by the pandemic?

Gas was 5$ a gallon when Bush left office. Gas is only expensive when compared to the lockdowns. Overall, gas is pretty cheap, still.

I'm almost certain gas will spike on the expectation of gas spiking, as oil companies realize they can jack up prices and blame it on the war. Edit: just saw a headline of some oil exec promising that they will not take advantage of the war to raise prices. So, they will almost certainly do that.

Matter of fact, I think that explains a good bit of the inflation we see. Companies see headlines about inflation and figure they can raise their margins a bit without taking the blame. That's why the last year, with all the inflation, was still one of the more profitable years in corporate history.

Edited by Kryptos (02/25/22 12:15 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 3
    #27673082 - 02/25/22 01:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Regardless of the politics there's something to be said for an unarmed woman telling a soldier with a gun he's a piece of shit  :thumbup:

Some excellent propaganda here from The Guardian.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27673089 - 02/25/22 01:17 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The US agreed not to expand NATO eastward around the time East Germany reunited with West Germany.

West promised not to expand NATO




I'm not convinced this is some sort of smoking gun that proves much :shrug:

In the minutes of that meeting, this was also said
Quote:

'We could not therefore offer membership of NATO to Poland and the others. We might however consider referring to our interest in these countries in future NATO declarations.'



That doesn't sound like an unwavering promise that carries any weight to me?



Let's look at the full context:

"We had made it clear during the negotiations that we would not extend NATO beyond the Elbe.  We could not therefore offer membership of NATO to Poland and other countries.  We might however consider referring to our interest in these countries in future NATO declarations."

I think it's pretty clear we agreed NATO would not extend beyond the Elbe.  Having an "interest" in these countries isn't the same as offering membership to those countries.  :shrug:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27673092 - 02/25/22 01:19 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I don't think there is any point to try to argue with Falcon or Ecstatic that we didn't promise to not expand NATO eastward. They both think that the fact that any such agreement was made without the OK of the President of the United States (Clinton or HW Bush) is not relevant.



I just quoted the promise above.  I agree with you that it wasn't put in a treaty, and we don't know if it had the OK of the President, but the promise was made.

Russia learned that US promises can't be trusted, and agreements need to be put in writing in the future.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Enkidu] * 1
    #27673099 - 02/25/22 01:26 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enkidu said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enkidu said:
So it's time for them to reclaim the motherland or what ?

Patiently waited



:justno:




What the fuck are you shaking your head at



Russia's not going to reclaim Ukraine.  They haven't even claimed the separatist regions, just recognized them as independent.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673100 - 02/25/22 01:27 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Let's look at the full context:





Ok.

Quote:

Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies.


Did that occur? No :shrug:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm#c203

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673106 - 02/25/22 01:29 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

No ones promises can be trusted when the stakes are very high .  Why does that even matter ?


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Edited by Psilynut2 (02/25/22 01:29 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673111 - 02/25/22 01:33 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Russia's not going to reclaim Ukraine.  They haven't even claimed the separatist regions, just recognized them as independent.




They're most likely going to further ruin the country and that's about it. Ukrainians don't want their country split, even in the east.

Maybe Russia could stop supporting a minority in a civil war, perhaps that'd help seeing as they're so concerned about peace?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27673137 - 02/25/22 01:59 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Let's look at the full context:





Ok.

Quote:

Decisions on membership are taken by consensus among all Allies.


Did that occur? No :shrug:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm#c203



Again, I understand the promise wasn't legally binding.  Russia learned its lesson not to trust the US.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27673159 - 02/25/22 02:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Russia's not going to reclaim Ukraine.  They haven't even claimed the separatist regions, just recognized them as independent.



They're most likely going to further ruin the country and that's about it.



Which is why Russia would never take them.  It'd be far too expensive.

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Ukrainians don't want their country split, even in the east.

Maybe Russia could stop supporting a minority in a civil war, perhaps that'd help seeing as they're so concerned about peace?



Maybe the US shouldn't have orchestrated a coup to put in a US friendly President in charge of Ukraine in the first place?  That's when the Russian friendly territories separated (Eastern Ukraine declared their independence in 2014, while Crimea voted to rejoin Russia).

Russia actually made many efforts for peace over the years, but they have all been interfered with by the US.  Plus Ukraine ignored the Minsk agreements.

Too bad Zelensky's become such a puppet of the West.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673164 - 02/25/22 02:23 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

just wait till America gets a little power hungry and starts invading its neighboors.


It'll make what Putin is doing look like child play

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 4
    #27673166 - 02/25/22 02:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

No one should think that a vague verbal agreement made independently by one American president's administration 30 years ago with the then leader of the now collapsed Soviet Union would hold up in modern context and honestly its such a bonehead move to be harping on it so much as if it at all explains or justifies what's going on


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Fiery] * 1
    #27673167 - 02/25/22 02:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fiery said:
just wait till America gets a little power hungry and starts invading its neighboors.


It'll make what Putin is doing look like child play




We have to wait for China's turn.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Fiery] * 2
    #27673177 - 02/25/22 02:35 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fiery said:
just wait till America gets a little power hungry and starts invading its neighboors.


It'll make what Putin is doing look like child play



It already has.  America's been overthrowing governments for centuries, including Ukraine's own Government in 2014.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #27673226 - 02/25/22 03:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe you guys should run for president


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27673277 - 02/25/22 04:12 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Russia's not going to reclaim Ukraine.  They haven't even claimed the separatist regions, just recognized them as independent.




They're most likely going to further ruin the country and that's about it. Ukrainians don't want their country split, even in the east.

Maybe Russia could stop supporting a minority in a civil war, perhaps that'd help seeing as they're so concerned about peace?


putin wants to bring Ukraine to its knees so they think they have no other choice but to join Russia.
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Fiery said:
just wait till America gets a little power hungry and starts invading its neighboors.


It'll make what Putin is doing look like child play




We have to wait for China's turn.


china is making moves as we speak they are sending ships out twords Taiwan. The question is when will they choose to start a conflict. I hope nothing happens.  But china thinks taiwan has allways been part of china an are dead set on bringing them back in.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27673289 - 02/25/22 04:30 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I doubt Putin wants to formally annex Ukraine. I'm guessing the primary goal is destroying the government.

I guess my prediction that he wouldn't attack was wrong. But, I shall make another: this war will last less than two weeks and will result in no meaningful changes in territory.

Point would be to throw the government into chaos, and essentially force a seat at the table. From a purely financial standpoint, taking control of even just the eastern parts of Ukraine would be idiotic. Eastern Ukraine is a dirt poor backwoods with very little resources. It is only strategically important to Russia if the government of Ukraine is not aligned with Russia.

Of course, the other option is that rationality has left the building, and Putin wants to write his name in History at any cost. That option is a lot messier.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27673290 - 02/25/22 04:31 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Putin doesn't want Ukraine for Russia, that's mainstream news propaganda.  The country is way too far in the gutter for him to want to support it.  The only reason he would take Ukraine is if the US continues to refuse to come to the negotiating table, as we are now.

Biden has ‘no plans’ to talk to Putin


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673292 - 02/25/22 04:33 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Maybe the US shouldn't have orchestrated a coup to put in a US friendly President in charge of Ukraine in the first place?  That's when the Russian friendly territories separated (Eastern Ukraine declared their independence in 2014, while Crimea voted to rejoin Russia).

Russia actually made many efforts for peace over the years, but they have all been interfered with by the US.  Plus Ukraine ignored the Minsk agreements.

Too bad Zelensky's become such a puppet of the West.




Valid points for sure, I wish we had better balanced news reports.

However, the only way out now for Russia is to further annexe a region that is minority pro Russian, that's just as obnoxious as U.S. interference.
Ukraine is only strategic to The West if it intends an invasion, which just isn't going to happen. Russia needs to get rid of the war hawks still living in the past, that'd help a shit ton more than any friendly invasion incursion rubber stamped border crossing.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 2
    #27673303 - 02/25/22 04:42 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
putin wants to bring Ukraine to its knees so they think they have no other choice but to join Russia.





That'll never happen.

The idea of a 'neutral buffer country' with autonomous regions maybe, but until the U.S. backs off that won't happen either.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27673311 - 02/25/22 04:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I doubt Putin wants to formally annex Ukraine. I'm guessing the primary goal is destroying the government.

I guess my prediction that he wouldn't attack was wrong. But, I shall make another: this war will last less than two weeks and will result in no meaningful changes in territory.

Point would be to throw the government into chaos, and essentially force a seat at the table. From a purely financial standpoint, taking control of even just the eastern parts of Ukraine would be idiotic. Eastern Ukraine is a dirt poor backwoods with very little resources. It is only strategically important to Russia if the government of Ukraine is not aligned with Russia.



I agree; I think for the conflict to end, Ukraine has to come to the table, and I'm not so sure the US wants them to.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27673324 - 02/25/22 04:52 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
the only way out now for Russia is to further annexe a region that is minority pro Russian



What do you mean by "minority pro Russian"?  Do you have a source for that?

As I stated before, Russia's original intention wasn't to annex the regions (though this now might happen given Ukraine's current situation resulting from their unwillingness to have peace talks). The territories might now have to be annexed as the only way to keep them safe from more Ukrainian shelling.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673340 - 02/25/22 05:07 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Well from the links I posted somewhere? earlier.

I don't have a problem with your view that Crimea has a majority pro Russian population but I don't believe the same is so for the eastern regions.

Perhaps if Russia stopped supplying the ammo and offered a free one way trip over the border to anyone who took up the offer of the free passports they've been handing out instead?

The armed casualties on both sides are reasonably close = Russia has spent the last 8 years dribbling weapons into the separatists. They ARE a part of the problem here.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #27673355 - 02/25/22 05:17 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Tab for Ukraine, every time you open a tab it raises money to support humanitarian aid for families in the country.

https://tab.gladly.io/ukraine/

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673380 - 02/25/22 05:30 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
the only way out now for Russia is to further annexe a region that is minority pro Russian



What do you mean by "minority pro Russian"?  Do you have a source for that?





https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27671588#27671588

I was reading through that Wiki link you posted, it's very difficult to work out what the real % is.

There was plenty of irregularities on both sides.

Particularly this one
Quote:

The day before the referendum, it was reported in Ukrainian media that a group of pro-Russian separatists in possession of a 100,000 ballots already marked with a 'yes' vote for the referendum were captured during the ongoing government "anti-terrorist" operation, and that the ballots were seized by government forces. Local news reported that polling in some occupied schools had already begun a day in advance.[27][47][48]



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27673393 - 02/25/22 05:52 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Well from the links I posted somewhere? earlier.

I don't have a problem with your view that Crimea has a majority pro Russian population but I don't believe the same is so for the eastern regions.



Sorry, I missed it.  Here's the best I could find: 2014 Donbas status referendums

"Do you support the Act of State Self-rule of the Donetsk People's Republic?"
Location Donetsk Oblast
Yes 89.07%    No 10.19%    Invalid ballots 0.74%

"Do you support the declaration of state independence of the Luhansk People's Republic?"
Location Luhansk Oblast
Yes 96.2%    No 3.8%

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Perhaps if Russia stopped supplying the ammo and offered a free one way trip over the border to anyone who took up the offer of the free passports they've been handing out instead?

The armed casualties on both sides are reasonably close = Russia has spent the last 8 years dribbling weapons into the separatists. They ARE a part of the problem here.



The separatists are the ones being attacked.  Should they not be able to fight back?  :shrug:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673418 - 02/25/22 06:19 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

It'd probably be a lot easier if they crossed the border and racked off to Russia instead of dragging their country through a conflict with no end in sight.

The majority of Ukraine don't want to join Russia, they're being dragged into a conflict they don't want.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27673428 - 02/25/22 06:30 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Many have already left.  I guess that's one way to solve the problem.  "If you don't like it here, just leave".

Quote:

The large influx of individuals seeking asylum in Russia began in July 2014 when the most intensive hostilities evolved. By the end of 2014 (data from 5 December 2014) the number of Ukrainian citizens who stayed in the territory of Russia increased by more than 0.9 million and went up to 2.5 million persons.




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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673445 - 02/25/22 06:48 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I guess that's one way to solve the problem.  "If you don't like it here, just leave".





Well if they aren't in the majority it's home grown terrorism backed and fomented by the Russian government  :shrug:

Also, it's far from unanimous on whether everyday Russians agree with an armed incursion either.

I honestly don't think Putin has read the tea leaves correctly.

https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/5-polls-contextualize-russia-ukraine-crisis

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673457 - 02/25/22 07:04 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I doubt Putin wants to formally annex Ukraine. I'm guessing the primary goal is destroying the government.

I guess my prediction that he wouldn't attack was wrong. But, I shall make another: this war will last less than two weeks and will result in no meaningful changes in territory.

Point would be to throw the government into chaos, and essentially force a seat at the table. From a purely financial standpoint, taking control of even just the eastern parts of Ukraine would be idiotic. Eastern Ukraine is a dirt poor backwoods with very little resources. It is only strategically important to Russia if the government of Ukraine is not aligned with Russia.



I agree; I think for the conflict to end, Ukraine has to come to the table, and I'm not so sure the US wants them to.




I just read something similar in a Russian newspaper about two hours ago...some guy from Abkhazia was telling Zelensky to apologize to Putin and give him what he wants.

US or no, I think Ukraine should ignore them.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27673477 - 02/25/22 07:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Well if they aren't in the majority it's home grown terrorism backed and fomented by the Russian government  :shrug:



If they aren't in the majority of what?  I agree, the majority of Ukrainians don't want them independent.  But the majority of people in the region want their independence (as I've shown above).

The question is whether territories have a right to secede.  Normally, I'd say no. But in this case, the US orchestrated an unconstitutional coup against Ukraine's democratically elected president, and installed a US friendly president.  The pro-Russian areas immediately chose to secede.  In that case I think they have a legitimate reason.

Let's say, for example, Putin took out the US president and put one in of his own choosing, and many states chose to leave.  In that case, I think it'd be justified.  :shrug:

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Also, it's far from unanimous on whether everyday Russians agree with an armed incursion either.

I honestly don't think Putin has read the tea leaves correctly.

https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/5-polls-contextualize-russia-ukraine-crisis



Maybe I'm interpreting the results differently than you, but here's what I'm seeing:

Who do you think initiated the aggravation of the situation in eastern Ukraine?
US, NATO countries 50%
Russia 4%

Which of the following opinions regarding the independence of the DPR and LPR would you rather agree with?
The DPR and LPR should become independent states (got the most votes)

In the event of an outbreak of hostilities in eastern Ukraine, should Russia engage in armed conflict on the side of the DPR/LPR?
Yes 43%
No 43%
Difficult to answer 14%

How, in your opinion, would the attitudes of Russians change toward Vladimir Putin in the event of a full-scale war with Ukraine?
It will raise Vladimir Putin’s authority among Russians 16%
It will cause dissatisfaction with Vladimir Putin among Russians 31%
It will not change attitudes toward Vladimir Putin among Russians 42%
It is difficult to say 12%


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27673478 - 02/25/22 07:26 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
...some guy from Abkhazia was telling Zelensky to apologize to Putin and give him what he wants.
US or no, I think Ukraine should ignore them.



I don't think Zelensky should give Putin what he wants; I just think they should have a negotiation to see if they find some common ground.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673502 - 02/25/22 07:53 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

To discuss terms of surrender, you mean?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673512 - 02/25/22 08:05 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Maybe I'm interpreting the results differently than you, but here's what I'm seeing:


In the event of an outbreak of hostilities in eastern Ukraine, should Russia engage in armed conflict on the side of the DPR/LPR?
Yes 43%
No 43%
Difficult to answer 14%





That's the numbers I was looking at, the same article also said,

Quote:

Only 43% of respondents reported that they believe Russia should intervene in a conflict (18% said definitely yes, 25% were somewhat supportive) and another 43% reported that Russia should not intervene (25% were not very supportive and 18% said definitely not). This perhaps implies that while many Russians would support the Donbass being united with Russia, they have a lower threshold for the deleterious effects associated with engaging in an armed conflict



That's far from a clear majority backing armed conflict even with the one sided news.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27673514 - 02/25/22 08:06 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I don't think there is any point to try to argue with Falcon or Ecstatic that we didn't promise to not expand NATO eastward. They both think that the fact that any such agreement was made without the OK of the President of the United States (Clinton or HW Bush) is not relevant.



I just quoted the promise above.  I agree with you that it wasn't put in a treaty, and we don't know if it had the OK of the President, but the promise was made.

Russia learned that US promises can't be trusted, and agreements need to be put in writing in the future.




We do know it didn't have the OK of the President. I have been checking and rechecking that since this debate started.


--------------------
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27673530 - 02/25/22 08:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 3
    #27673542 - 02/25/22 08:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

This is a really interesting interview of Scott Ritter by Richard Medhurst.  Probably too long for most here to watch, but Scott really has an interesting perspective on the conflict. 

I'm posting this because he talks about America's assurances not to expand NATO Eastward (from 33:27-34:11).



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673560 - 02/25/22 09:11 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Falcon not gonna lie man you're comin off a real clown bozo with these posts.. Totally off the mark with every single thing you've said in here. And that's comin the most anti-west dude around...


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan] * 2
    #27673569 - 02/25/22 09:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Can you please give an example of something I said that's "off the mark" so I understand?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673578 - 02/25/22 09:32 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This is a really interesting interview of Scott Ritter by Richard Medhurst.  Probably too long for most here to watch, but Scott really has an interesting perspective on the conflict. 

I'm posting this because he talks about America's assurances not to expand NATO Eastward (from 33:27-34:11).






Ya know, that's probably the most logical commentary so far. Good video :thumbup:

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 3
    #27673590 - 02/25/22 09:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for watching!  There's a few here (you, The Ecstatic, qman, and a few others) who are interested in more than what the mainstream media gives them.  :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673608 - 02/25/22 10:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Scott Ritter was brutally honest and made a lot of sense.

Always good value having a robust discussion with you Falcon  :cool: :thumbup:

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27673621 - 02/25/22 10:37 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Likewise my friend!  :cool::thumbup:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673622 - 02/25/22 10:39 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

... the US orchestrated an unconstitutional coup against Ukraine's democratically elected president and installed a US friendly president.  The pro-Russian areas immediately chose to secede.




An ABC article from 2013 = "John McCain Blames Obama for Emboldening Russian Bullying in Ukraine"

https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/12/john-mccain-blames-obama-for-emboldening-russian-bullying-in-ukraine

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #27673665 - 02/25/22 11:41 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I'm curious what your thoughts are here.

That McCain knew the US was getting ready to launch a coup in Ukraine to take over the country's leadership? (McCain played a big role in the coup)

That Putin didn't put up a good fight at the time the coup finally happened?

Or???


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673667 - 02/25/22 11:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Can you please give an example of something I said that's "off the mark" so I understand?




    Your supporting the largest land invasion in Europe since ww2.


--------------------

Edited by Psilynut2 (02/25/22 11:51 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 3
    #27673700 - 02/26/22 12:23 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Can you point to the post where I support it?  I'm simply explaining it, because ignorant people think Russia just invaded Ukraine for no reason.

Here's another good explanation from Ben Norton who was interviewed by Lee Camp:



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #27673829 - 02/26/22 04:28 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Putin doesn't want Ukraine for Russia, that's mainstream news propaganda.  The country is way too far in the gutter for him to want to support it.  The only reason he would take Ukraine is if the US continues to refuse to come to the negotiating table, as we are now.

Biden has ‘no plans’ to talk to Putin




Wow this is really pathetic. Invade a sovereign country. Commit war crimes. Just because somebody won’t pay attention to your maniacal needs.

You are either completely brainwashed or a GRU troll farm employee


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673832 - 02/26/22 04:36 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm curious what your thoughts are here.

That McCain knew the US was getting ready to launch a coup in Ukraine to take over the country's leadership? (McCain played a big role in the coup)

That Putin didn't put up a good fight at the time the coup finally happened?

Or???




Why would it be Putin’s job to defend Ukraine from a coup? You have a very selective opinion about countries getting involved in foreign conflicts.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27673850 - 02/26/22 05:21 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.




https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict
This one said James Baker floated the idea to Gorbachev in return for German unification. Gorbachev said he would think about it. When Baker got home HW Bush said no way.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27674023 - 02/26/22 09:50 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Can you point to the post where I support it?  I'm simply explaining it, because ignorant people think Russia just invaded Ukraine for no reason.




    You want me to reword my shit ? Ok.

    You are defending Putin's decision to launch the largest land invasion since Hitler .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27674073 - 02/26/22 10:45 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

This statement originally appeared in Russian on avtonom.org, a media project that grew out of the libertarian communist network Autonomous Action.


Against Annexations and Imperial Aggression

Yesterday, on February 21, an extraordinary meeting of the Russian Security Council was held. As part of this theatrical act, Putin forced his closest servants to publicly “ask” him to recognize the independence of the so-called “people’s republics” of the Luhansk People’s Republic [LPR] and Donetsk People’s Republic [DPR] in eastern Ukraine.

It is quite obvious that this is a step towards the further annexation of these territories by Russia—no matter how it is formalized (or not formalized) legally. In fact, the Kremlin ceases to consider the LPR and DPR part of Ukraine and finally makes them its protectorate. “First the recognition of independence, then annexation”: this sequence was already worked out in 2014 in Crimea. This is also clear from Naryshkin’s stupid reservations at the meeting of the Security Council (“Yes, I support the entry of these territories into the Russian Federation “). Since the meeting, as it turned out, was broadcast on tape [rather than live], and these “reservations” were not cut out, but left in—the hint is clear.

In an “appeal to the people” that same evening, Putin seemed to “agree” with these requests and announced the recognition of the LPR and DPR as independent states. In fact, he said the following: “We are taking a piece of the Donbass, and if Ukraine rocks the boat, then let it blame itself, we don’t consider it a state at all, so we’ll take even more.” According to Putin’s decree, Russian troops are already entering the territory of the LPR and DPR. This is a clear gesture of threat towards the rest of Ukraine and especially towards the parts of the Lugansk and Donetsk regions still controlled by Ukraine. This is the actual occupation [in the sense that until now, Luhansk and Donetsk were only occupied by proxy].

We do not want to stand up for any states. We are anarchists and we are against any borders between nations. But we are against this annexation, because it only establishes new borders, and the decision on this is made solely by the authoritarian leader—Vladimir Putin. This is an act of imperialist aggression by Russia. We have no illusions about the Ukrainian state, but it is clear to us that it is not the main aggressor in this story—this is not a confrontation between two equal evils. First of all, this is an attempt by the Russian authoritarian government to solve its internal problems through a “small victorious war and the accumulation of lands” [a reference to Ivan III].

It is quite probable that the Kremlin regime will stage some kind of spectacle of a “referendum” on the annexed lands. Such performances already took place in the DPR and LPR in 2014, but not even Moscow recognized their results. Now, apparently, Putin has decided to change that. Of course, there can be no talk of any “free and secret voting” in these territories—they are under the control of militarized gangs completely dependent on Moscow. Those who were opposed to these gangs and against integration with Russia were either killed or forced to emigrate. Thus, any “referendum on the return of Donbass like a lost ship to its native harbor” will be a propaganda lie. The residents of Donbass will be able to formulate their decision only when the troops of all states—and first of all the Russian Federation—leave these territories.

The recognition and annexation of the DPR and LPR will not bring anything good to the inhabitants of Russia itself.

First, in any case, this will lead to the militarization of all spheres of life, even greater international isolation of Russia, sanctions and a decline in general well-being. Restoring the destroyed infrastructure and taking the “people’s republics” into the state budget will not be free, either—both will cost billions of rubles that could otherwise be spent on education and medicine. Have no doubt: the yachts of the Russian oligarchs will not become smaller, but everyone else will begin to live worse.

Second, the likely aggravation of the armed confrontation with Ukraine will mean more dead and wounded soldiers and civilians, more destroyed cities and villages, more blood. Even if this conflict does not escalate into a world war, Putin’s imperial fantasies are not worth a single life.

Third, this will mean the further spread of the so-called “Russian world”: a crazy combination of neoliberal oligarchy, rigid centralized power, and patriarchal imperial propaganda. This consequence is not as obvious as the rise in the price of sausages and the sanctions on smartphones—but in the long run, it is even more dangerous.

We urge you to counter the Kremlin’s aggression by any means you see fit. Against the seizure of territories under any pretext, against sending the Russian army to the Donbass, against militarization. And ultimately, against the war. Take to the streets, spread the word, talk to the people around you—you know what to do. Do not be silent. Take action. Even a small screw can jam the gears of a death machine.

Against all borders, against all empires, against all wars!

-Autonomous Action





Translation: “No War Between Nations! No Peace Between Classes!”


--------------------

Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/26/22 11:00 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #27674095 - 02/26/22 11:15 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.




https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict
This one said James Baker floated the idea to Gorbachev in return for German unification. Gorbachev said he would think about it. When Baker got home HW Bush said no way.



Fair enough.  Did the US ever tell Russia we're backing down on our promise?  Russia doesn't seem to think so.
They now know they should never trust the US again.


--------------------
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27674096 - 02/26/22 11:15 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Hell yeah, I think Zelensky staying in Kyiv and the west now seeing how hard Ukrainians are willing to fight (even if they do lose Kyiv eventually) is bolstering NATOs resolve. Seeing Germany now trying to find a way to cut them out of SWIFT, which surprised me a little since Germany and Italy were the largest opponents to that at the onset of the invasion.

Not sure why Putin sent in the B team here, but the ensuing guerrilla style fighting by the Ukrainians would probably crater what morale they have at the moment over time.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #27674108 - 02/26/22 11:21 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Wow this is really pathetic. Invade a sovereign country. Commit war crimes. Just because somebody won’t pay attention to your maniacal needs.



National security is a maniacal need?  You're not as smart as I thought, but as I've repeatedly shown, you live in a world of make believe.

Quote:

koods said:
You are either completely brainwashed or a GRU troll farm employee



If you're not smart enough to make rational arguments, you resort to insults.  As do many here.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27674110 - 02/26/22 11:24 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Why would it be Putin’s job to defend Ukraine from a coup? You have a very selective opinion about countries getting involved in foreign conflicts.



I didn't say it was.  I was asking RJ Tubs 202 to explain his post.


--------------------
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27674112 - 02/26/22 11:25 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.




https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict
This one said James Baker floated the idea to Gorbachev in return for German unification. Gorbachev said he would think about it. When Baker got home HW Bush said no way.



Fair enough.  Did the US ever tell Russia we're backing down on our promise?  Russia doesn't seem to think so.
They now know they should never trust the US again.




Stop twisting what he said. You’re shameless.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27674122 - 02/26/22 11:39 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

What did I twist?  I just agreed with Brian Jones.


--------------------
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27674138 - 02/26/22 11:50 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

No you didn’t


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27674144 - 02/26/22 11:54 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I agreed that after the agreement, Bush said he was against it.  What did I twist?

You keep accusing me of lying, but so far every time you do it turns out you're the one lying.


--------------------
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27674248 - 02/26/22 01:03 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

There was no agreement.  Like Brian said, the idea was floated but the president said no. It was never part of any agreement. Nobody agreed to it.

If you don’t like being called a liar, then stop lying.

There is an agreement that was violated. Russia agreed to honor Ukraine’s borders in return for Ukraine surrendering their nukes.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27674641 - 02/26/22 06:04 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.




https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict
This one said James Baker floated the idea to Gorbachev in return for German unification. Gorbachev said he would think about it. When Baker got home HW Bush said no way.



Fair enough.  Did the US ever tell Russia we're backing down on our promise?  Russia doesn't seem to think so.
They now know they should never trust the US again.




What promise? There never was one.


--------------------
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27675313 - 02/27/22 10:35 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This is a really interesting interview of Scott Ritter by Richard Medhurst.  Probably too long for most here to watch, but Scott really has an interesting perspective on the conflict. 

I'm posting this because he talks about America's assurances not to expand NATO Eastward (from 33:27-34:11).




very interesting video

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27675314 - 02/27/22 10:41 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you post where you found the President didn't give his negotiators the power to negotiate?

You may be right, I'm just curious to see how you reached your conclusion.




https://www.npr.org/2022/02/07/1078929982/a-look-at-the-debate-over-nato-expansion-eastward-thats-at-the-heart-of-conflict
This one said James Baker floated the idea to Gorbachev in return for German unification. Gorbachev said he would think about it. When Baker got home HW Bush said no way.


that is pretty dam interesting.  Thank you for the post.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27675333 - 02/27/22 10:58 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Its pretty crazy watching those mig29s whizzing on by.

Watch "Russian KA-52 Alligator Shot Down By Ukraine" on YouTube
https://youtube.com/shorts/dMX9cEf8qVg?feature=share

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27675350 - 02/27/22 11:10 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

More than 3,500 Russian soldiers have been killed since the invasion of Ukraine began earlier this week, according to the Ukrainian military

Russia has also lost 14 airplanes, eight helicopters, 102 tanks, 536 armed vehicles, 15 heavy machine guns and one BUK missile since the invasion began, Ukraine's military said.

For comparison, fewer than 2,500 U.S. service members have died in Afghanistan, a war that spanned two decades


.




https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/ukraine-killed-3500-russians-ex-president-says-amid-fierce-kyiv-battles-1682981%3famp=1

I'm not sure if what I'm reading is accurate number wise yet , I've seen reports of higher numbers than this , pretty crazy if it is though .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27675388 - 02/27/22 11:36 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The head of Roscosmos, the Russian space agency, has suggested that the International Space Station (ISS) could fall out of orbit and crash into the United States or Europe as a result of sanctions on Russia.  The comments came following US president Joe Biden’s announcement of new sanctions that “will degrade their [Russia’s] aerospace industry, including their space programme”. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-international-space-station-crash-us-europe-sanctions-2022-2




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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Asante]
    #27675393 - 02/27/22 11:40 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Oh well .  Its not like we can just keep being space buddies after this .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27675413 - 02/27/22 11:53 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Putin is being humiliated on the world stage. Zelensky is getting all the praise. Putin made him a star. It’s a distaster


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (02/27/22 11:57 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27675476 - 02/27/22 12:41 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
There was no agreement.  Like Brian said, the idea was floated but the president said no. It was never part of any agreement. Nobody agreed to it.

If you don’t like being called a liar, then stop lying.



Did you not read the text from the meeting that was posted?  Evidence of the agreement is clear.  It seems the President didn't agree, and we forgot to tell Russia we wouldn't uphold our promise.


--------------------
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27675490 - 02/27/22 12:48 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
What promise? There never was one.



From the documentation that was recently released:

Quote:

“We had made it clear during the 2+4 negotiations that we would not extend NATO beyond the Elbe [sic],” said West German diplomat Juergen Hrobog. “We could not therefore offer Poland and others membership in NATO.”




Call that whatever you like, if not a promise.  It looks like a promise to me.


--------------------
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27675505 - 02/27/22 12:57 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
There was no agreement.  Like Brian said, the idea was floated but the president said no. It was never part of any agreement. Nobody agreed to it.

If you don’t like being called a liar, then stop lying.



Did you not read the text from the meeting that was posted?  Evidence of the agreement is clear.  It seems the President didn't agree, and we forgot to tell Russia we wouldn't uphold our promise.




Good luck with that


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27675526 - 02/27/22 01:12 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Call that whatever you like, if not a promise.  It looks like a promise to me.




I thought you were leaving ? More lying ...


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27675613 - 02/27/22 02:11 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Putin is being humiliated on the world stage. Zelensky is getting all the praise. Putin made him a star. It’s a distaster





Yeah and now he's reaised nuclear status to high alert or some thing like that.

:picard:


This is going to get ugly. He's the type of guy who won't admit defeat but will rather nuke the fuck out of Ukraine if he has to.


FUCK

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Fiery]
    #27675635 - 02/27/22 02:32 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Massive explosion. Almost looks nuclear, but isn’t.

https://twitter.com/rafaelgarcialaf/status/1498041888460398592?s=21


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27675657 - 02/27/22 02:50 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I'm 100% confident that Putin though Ukraine was just going to lay down and get conquered without too much of a fight...


Now that the world is uniting against him, he is much more likely to use nukes.



Also, he's been caught in a lie because he said if ANYONE intefeers, the consequences will be like nothing they have ever seen.


Well, looks like the whole world is interfering and all I hear about is Russian forces getting destroyed.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27675684 - 02/27/22 03:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Massive explosion. Almost looks nuclear, but isn’t.

https://twitter.com/rafaelgarcialaf/status/1498041888460398592?s=21





same bomb on youtube:




That looks like the Father of all Bombs, the FOAB, a thermobaric bomb equivalent to 44 tons of TNT.

Nonradioactive but very powerful.

If that were a nuke the flash would be much more intense.

There also would be tv static like glitching in the camera from it being hit by neutrons. But there is no inbetween step between this and a small tactical nuke.


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Edited by Asante (02/27/22 03:34 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Asante]
    #27675821 - 02/27/22 05:11 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)




Resistance: Ukrainian citizens are filling up the molotov cocktails in preparation for the invasion.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27675824 - 02/27/22 05:12 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Massive explosion. Almost looks nuclear, but isn’t.

https://twitter.com/rafaelgarcialaf/status/1498041888460398592?s=21




The most massive explosion is the one in my heart right now. I remember telling you through private message that I was in Washington DC in November and you were like "hey we should hang out next time you are here." So then I was like "I'll be back February 20th to 25th" but this time to no avail :crying:

And I did go back I even rented a car I drove around d.c. I drove to Fairfax Virginia and Manassas Virginia I drove Northbound in DC not too far until it says you are entering Maryland and then I quickly turned around. I even did drive to Maryland I drove out to Fredericksburg and I even spent some time in Arlington which is funny because you just go right across the Potomac and totally different in DC it's like here in Virginia will actually you are crossing over from DC into Virginia. Arlington is pretty nice.

But we actually did not hang out we did not go to the Washington Monument together where the World War 2 memorial or to the area with the water where Tom Hanks goes running through the water to meet Jenny in Forrest Gump I forget the name of it. There's a homeless guy around there that always asks for money and says he's getting the money homeless veterans but somehow I get the feeling that there is no homeless for the veterans association and it basically he's the homeless veteran because every time the cops are walking towards and he starts walking away and he will sit there all day talking to people harassing them asking them why they don't care about giving a homeless veteran a dollar. Etc

No idea when I'll be back by next time I will be back I hope that my heart will be less broken and we get a chance to hang out. Maybe go hang out at The Hamilton restaurant not to be confused with the Hamilton hotel which also has a restaurant but it's not called The Hamilton restaurant but also has pretty good food as well.

It hurts :crying:

Until next time

:peace:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: imachavel] * 3
    #27676558 - 02/28/22 06:03 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)



Anyone else notice how Ukrainian politicians are defending their country instead of running away or attacking the capital ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27676669 - 02/28/22 08:42 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I read that pic of him was from some time ago before the current invasion. A lot of that going on it appears. Video footage that is old, scenes from video games.

Ukraine conflict: Further false images shared online
https://www.bbc.com/news/60528276

Edited by syncro (02/28/22 02:24 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
    #27676781 - 02/28/22 10:32 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The picture of Ted Cruz is real . There aren't old pictures of him gearing up for anything .
   
    There's allot of real video out there too . Russia is taking allot of losses .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
    #27676937 - 02/28/22 01:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Falcon posted this in another thread showing the U.S. government's shitfuckery involved in the events leading up to this mess so it belongs here seeing as they have their fingers all over this.

Yes it's JIMMY DORE but Aaron Mate does most of the talking and he's a very good talker, calling the Russian invasion what it is, an invasion.

He lays out how the fuck ups started with Bush, continued with Obama, then helped along by Trump and Biden.

Watch the vid and comment IF YOU DARE. If not, just watch it.



Edit, forgot to add Biden

Edited by Stable Genius (02/28/22 01:41 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27676969 - 02/28/22 01:43 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Wow
Somehow both sides of the story

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27677052 - 02/28/22 03:05 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Ah fuck , I watched the Dore video and now I support Russia taking over every non  nato country .
 
      It was all about gas and not giving a shit ,  Russia told us so , Biden wanted the war , most of Ukraine is controlled by Nazis and wants to be in Russia anyway , and Burisma and Hunter Biden and all of the millions of dollars they made .

  I feel sorry for Putin , if Ukraine ,  a democracy hating  country full of Nazis with a Jew President  had joined NATO , they could have just invaded Russia , taken it over,  restarted the Holocaust and pretended  it didn't happen at Trump rallies again .

Good thing I watched Jimmy Dore though , I was so close to just staying dumb . I feel like Russia is totally justified now , I'm going to write Biden a letter and ask him why he and his crack head son did this.


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Edited by Psilynut2 (02/28/22 03:10 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677073 - 02/28/22 03:23 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Really? I watched and thought Putin’s still a cunt and the U.S. government aren’t too far behind him.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677087 - 02/28/22 03:43 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Falcon posted this in another thread showing the U.S. government's shitfuckery involved in the events leading up to this mess so it belongs here seeing as they have their fingers all over this.




Caveat: didn't watch the video, I'm not spending 40 minutes on that.

Even if the US is doing some dirty shit, I don't think that should be grounds for an invasion. If it is, then virtually any country in the world is justified in invading virtually every other country in the world, because every country in the world is at the mercy of US/Russian/Chinese foreign policy/shitfuckery.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677092 - 02/28/22 03:47 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

At least my govt tells me when we are going to war . I'm not sure the Russian people or the first Russians who drove into Ukraine knew that's what was happening . Lol .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27677093 - 02/28/22 03:47 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

You didn’t watch it? No worries  :thumbup:

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27677095 - 02/28/22 03:52 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

invasion. If it is, then virtually any country in the world is justified in invading virtually every other country in the world, because every country in the world is at the mercy of



 
    We should invade Canada , did you see the trucker parade ? Nothing but Nazis up there .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677098 - 02/28/22 03:53 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
At least my govt tells me when we are going to war Lol .



All the shitfuckery behind the scenes doesn’t count then?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27677103 - 02/28/22 03:54 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

It's worth the watch. A point is US used Ukraine and now it looks like they're on their own when it comes to fighting which NATO, apparently, would likely never do for them. And of course the washed narrative is about sympathy and righteous indignation. They knew this would trigger the invasion at some point.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677105 - 02/28/22 03:57 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
    We should invade Canada , did you see the trucker parade ? Nothing but Nazis up there .




Nah, you guys have helped the world enough already.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
    #27677108 - 02/28/22 04:06 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

invasion. If it is, then virtually any country in the world is justified in invading virtually every other country in the world, because every country in the world is at the mercy of



 
    We should invade Canada , did you see the trucker parade ? Nothing but Nazis up there .




Did you hear Lauren Boebert earlier today? She said Russia should invade the US and Canada to get rid of "tyranny".

Quote:

syncro said:
It's worth the watch. A point is US used Ukraine and now it looks like they're on their own when it comes to fighting which NATO, apparently, would likely never do for them. And of course the washed narrative is about sympathy and righteous indignation. They knew this would trigger the invasion at some point.




I know. The US has meddled extensively in Eastern Europe, and I think everyone knew that they wouldn't actually back Ukraine up when the shit hit the fan. Don't get me wrong, I don't accept the sanitized western narrative either. But, again, if that is legitimate grounds for invasion, then virtually every country would be right to invade virtually every other country.

There aren't really any good guys in this situation. It's just a slow return to the State of Nature. The strong do what they will, and the weak suffer what they must. Ukraine's turn to suffer.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677113 - 02/28/22 04:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

All the shitfuckery behind the scenes doesn’t count then?




    Count for what ? Justifying and excusing Putin's decisions ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677119 - 02/28/22 04:13 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Count for being part of the problem.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27677122 - 02/28/22 04:15 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Did you hear Lauren Boebert earlier today? She said Russia should invade the US and Canada to get rid of "tyranny".




There was a time in this country I used to be genuinely afraid to say shit that dumb .
  I also genuinely appreciate the irony of  a Trump supporter , a guy who supposedly had no collusion at all with Russia , calling for a Russian invasion .
  That's fucking cool ,  I feel like the crazy kinda mellowed out after the election , it's coming back though .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27677127 - 02/28/22 04:17 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I don't accept the sanitized western narrative either. But, again, if that is legitimate grounds for invasion, then virtually every country would be right to invade virtually every other country.





Pretty much what you said above and I agree it's NOT legitimate grounds for Russia's invasion.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677129 - 02/28/22 04:21 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Count for being part of the problem.



 
    Have you ever blamed a third party  for an act of violence you committed against another person or group of people ?
    If you did would it seem reasonable for me as the third party to accept  and share your responsibility ?


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Edited by Psilynut2 (02/28/22 04:23 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677132 - 02/28/22 04:23 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I didn't say that. I said the U.S. government are part of the problem.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677135 - 02/28/22 04:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Remember when 9/11 happened? My cousin was in New York, he said the anger was through the roof, and rightly so.
That blind anger morphed blindly into war.
20 years later, nothing was resolved and the premise for the war turned out to be a crock of shit. That episode sent the U.S. backwards. I get to see war veterans regularly here, it's a place they retire to broken and fucked up.

I'd prefer we don't do it again without asking some serious questions first.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677144 - 02/28/22 04:44 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Is it true that Ukraine is controlled by Nazis like the Dore show is suggesting ?


Quote:

Neo-Nazism is one of the central claims behind President Vladimir Putin's decision to invade Ukraine, despite evidence that the assertion is false.




https://www.google.com/amp/s/people.com/politics/how-putin-uses-nazi-propaganda-to-defend-ukraine-invasion-russia/%3famp=true


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677149 - 02/28/22 04:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I think the 'Nazi' comment is referring to people being burned alive in the Donbas. Not 100% sure but I think that's the reason.

Edit, the anti-semitism by right wing groups after the 2014 election. I'd have to go back and look at the video again but I think Dore or Aaron Mate said something like that regarding people being burned alive.

Edited by Stable Genius (02/28/22 04:52 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677154 - 02/28/22 04:50 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Is it true that NATO is backing Nazis in Ukraine  and this is for denazifacation like Putin suggests  ?

Quote:

I think the 'Nazi' comment is referring to people being burned alive in the Donbas. Not 100% sure but I think that's the reason.




  In 2014 or recently ?


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Edited by Psilynut2 (02/28/22 04:52 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677161 - 02/28/22 04:57 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I wouldn't use the term Nazi, but if Ukrainian Jews are coming under attack from right wing groups, what should it be called?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677166 - 02/28/22 05:00 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

In 2014 or now? I don't really know, we don't get to hear much about what's actually happening.

I could look at RT News but whoa, I'd get crucified like Falcon. I'll see what I can dig up elsewhere first and report back.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677173 - 02/28/22 05:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I quickly skimmed through this from Bellingcat. It refers to neo-nazi's in the current Ukrainian Ministry.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/10/21/how-to-mainstream-neo-nazis-a-lesson-from-ukraines-new-government/

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677174 - 02/28/22 05:11 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

In 2014 or now ? Dont you think there's some significance to wether Nazis are burning people alive now or if it was back in 2014 ?
    Let's try this , 
  I saw your mom taking a giant goat penis on your  neighbors  porch back in 2014 vs your mom is taking a giant goat penis on your neighbors porch .
  See the difference ?



    That article is from 2019 .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677176 - 02/28/22 05:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

There's almost certainly some far right neo-nazi political groups active in Ukraine, they've been popping up everywhere. Hell, they have them in Russia (and I think a few back Putin).

It's a tiny little swastika-shaped fig leaf.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677180 - 02/28/22 05:16 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677185 - 02/28/22 05:19 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
In 2014 or now ? Dont you think there's some significance to wether Nazis are burning people alive now or if it was back in 2014 ?
    Let's try this , 
  I saw your mom taking a giant goat penis on your  neighbors  porch back in 2014 vs your mom is taking a giant goat penis on your neighbors porch .
  See the difference ?



    That article is from 2019 .




Hey if you want to try the anecdotes can you keep me out of it please? It's obnoxious. Stick to the debate if you can.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27677189 - 02/28/22 05:21 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
There's almost certainly some far right neo-nazi political groups active in Ukraine, they've been popping up everywhere. Hell, they have them in Russia (and I think a few back Putin).

It's a tiny little swastika-shaped fig leaf.




Yeah the further I look the more stories pop up.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677219 - 02/28/22 05:49 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Hey if you want to try the anecdotes can you keep me out of it please? It's obnoxious. Stick to the debate if you can.




      In your Jimmy Dore video , towards the end , Dore claims Putin is going into Ukraine to stop Nazis slaughtering people .
  The only thing I could find was something about people being burned in 2014 ?


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Edited by Psilynut2 (02/28/22 05:50 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677256 - 02/28/22 06:09 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Yep same here, and I couldn't work out who was responsible.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677278 - 02/28/22 06:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Ok so I promise I won't talk about goats anymore if you kindly explain to me why I should feel like its partly my govts  fault when people are acting like this Nazi thing was an issue that requires an invasion and I'm not even sure that's true ?
If Russia doesn't have a really good completely bullshit free reason for this invasion and the Nazi thing is bullshit then everything my govt has been doing to deter Russian expansion has been justified . Even the failures.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27677285 - 02/28/22 06:53 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The Ukraine on Fire documentary goes into it, the coup, etc. It's worth a watch to see that side whether or not believable, it saying the Nazi element there goes back to the WW2 era.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro] * 1
    #27677294 - 02/28/22 07:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Azov Battalion was apparently incorporated into the Ukranian army after they fought the Russians in Crimea, they're a pretty big neo nazi name.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27677295 - 02/28/22 07:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, they would be referring to groups like Svoboda (translation: Freedom) and Pravy Sector (Right Wing); and events resulting from the 2014 euromaidan protests - in particular, when Pravy Sektor carried out a massacre in Odessa on May 2nd 2014 by driving Russia supporters into the trade union building and setting it on fire with molotov cocktails.

These events were mostly ignored by the 'collective West' and distorted into imperialist propaganda by the Russian state. Imo, if you want the closest approximation of truth, you should consider the anarchist / antifascist analysis - because here, the intent isn't to create a narrative that supports either Ukraine or Russia, rather the intent is to understand how fascists took power so we can better prevent it from happening again - distortion gives no benefit. If you recall my discussion about the fascist creep in the honkening thread, well 2014 Ukraine got its own chapter because it's such a good example of a creeping fascist takeover.

In ascending order of detail:

- Ukraine: How Nationalists Took the Lead
- Maidan: Democratic Movement or Nationalist Mobilization?
- Against the Fascist Creep: Chapter 8 Autonomous Nationalism and Fascist Geopolitics

Quote:

Ideology and Development of Ukraine’s EuroMaidan

Although the momentum of Autonomous Nationalist tendencies in Western Europe seemed to be dissipating by 2013 with key organizers abandoning the trend, in Eastern Europe, the practices of wearing black, moving as a bloc, and organizing spontaneously converged with the paramilitary exercises attached to parties like Svoboda in an extremely intimidating and radical revolutionary force. In that year, the Ukrainian government led by Viktor Yanukovych made a risky move. He postponed an important agreement with the EU in an attempt to negotiate its terms. The rejection was seen by liberals as another of Yanukovych’s Putin-friendly maneuvers, made against the backdrop of the country’s sizeable debt for gas from Russia.

An encampment grew virtually overnight at Independence Square (Maidan Nezalezhnosti) similar to the gatherings of the Orange Revolution between 2004 and 2005 and an earlier 1990 nationalist encampment. Ostensibly made up of liberals, mainstream nationalists, and NGOs, the EuroMaidan demonstrations expressed hope for economic development and human rights that would follow greater integration with the EU. While some compared the gathering to the Occupy movement in the United States, others noted that the dressing up in historic costumes and daily prayers led by priests gave the proceedings a more Tea Partyesque atmosphere. Really, it was both.

The movement garnered funding and media support from EU-friendly foundations and advocated for both Ukrainian nationalism (vis-à-vis independence from Russia) and a closer relationship with the EU. NGO support worked through the opportunism of young activists hoping to make a living for themselves in accordance with what is perceived as a Western standard of living. Since these NGOs were fueled by NATO dollars, activists working for them brought their energy, enthusiasm, and loyalty to NATO’s EU backers. Leftist commentators like Viktor Shapinov argue that oligarchs adjusting from the economic crash of 2008 had also invested their money in the EU agreement, using media and the social mobilization capacity of NGOs to unseat Yanukovich’s old economic model.[529]

After police attacked the demonstration, dispersing crowds with metal truncheons, protesters returned with greater resolve and increased nationalist resentment against the regime. Protests became increasingly aggressive, as barrages of rocks and bricks were followed by a tractor driven into police barricades and intense hand-to-hand combat. As the brutality of the police increased to include live ammunition and protesters were shot down in the streets, the mood of the Maidan encampment fostered an increasingly nationalist, right-wing spirit. Leftist protesters were beaten on-site by nationalists in EuroMaidan when they attempted to raise antinationalist positions, and militant ultranationalism was afforded the opportunity to set agendas.[530] A security detail called Pravy Sektor (literally, “Right Sector” or “Right Wing”) was organized by a coalition of far-right groups, including the national-revolutionary Trident (Tryzub) and the Social-National Assembly, which as can be gleaned from their name, is a largely neo-Nazi organization with close links to Svoboda.[531]

Pravy Sektor occupied the fifth floor of the Trade Union Building, which became the headquarters of the EuroMaidan movement. Composed of paramilitary fighters and former army soldiers, the defense units gutted a state assault vehicle with Molotov cocktails and carried out an often-vicious campaign of internecine war with state forces. EuroMaidan activists were followed, harassed, kidnapped, and beaten by police, and the trade union headquarters set ablaze. The EuroMaidan demonstrations only grew increasingly autonomous in their struggle against the entire political establishment, including even long-standing opposition parties. [532]


Civil War in Ukraine

By the end of February 2014, faced with police forces crossing over to the EuroMaidan side and the prospect of an all-out assault from its defense forces, Yanukovych fled Ukraine. New elections were held, with opposition parties gaining control of the government. In the civil war that followed Putin’s seizure of the Crimea, radical-right groups joined with neo-Nazis to inflict casualties against pro-Russian demonstrators. In May, Pravy Sektor carried out a massacre in Odessa, driving Russia supporters into the trade union building and setting it on fire with Molotov cocktails. Though the incident was documented on video, it was largely ignored or denied by the mainstream media.[533]

The new Kiev government ordered Pravy Sektor to turn in their arms, leading to a shootout in Western Ukraine, and a brief, small uprising was put down. Although members of the radical right assumed positions in office under the renewed oligarchy, Svoboda received a mere half of the votes they had obtained in 2012 before EuroMaidan. The organized radical right had reached a peak during EuroMaidan, but as they lost institutional support, many of their leading members were ushered into more mainstream parties like Arseniy Yatsenyuk’s Narodnyy front (Popular Front), Petro Poroshenko’s Blok Petra Poroshenka “Solidarnist” (“Solidarity” Bloc), and Oleh Lyashko’s Radykal’na Partiya Oleha Lyashka (Radical Party). Ukrainian scholar Volodymyr Ishchenko highlighted the contradictions in an article for the Guardian: “It is short-sighted and formalistic to conclude that the Ukrainian far right is insignificant based on the lack of electoral success. The rhetoric of many politicians which could be called centralist or even liberal has moved significantly to the right, competing for the increasingly patriotic and even nationalist voters.”[534] Putin’s seizure of the Crimea, along with the uprising of pro-Russian separatists in the Donbass region of Eastern Ukraine, gave the radical right new energy. In a sense, the forces of the extreme right and neo-Nazism needed to steer away from parliamentarism in order to maintain their antagonistic presence as militants in favor of dictatorship by a coup d’état.

These forces shifted to control security and the military, with a new volunteer battalion from the Azov coast gaining a particular amount of attention. Released as “political prisoners” by the new government, the neo-Nazi PU became the core of the Azov Battalion, which claimed to fight the new patriotic war against Russian ultranationalist invaders. Despite the fact that members of the battalion wore the SS’s Wolfsangel badge on their uniform and had swastika tattoos, the national guard incorporated them into its structure. This collusion between the new state and neo-Nazis seems to have stemmed from a more deeply rooted relationship between fascist and government forces in post-Cold War Ukraine—for instance, the leader of the Patriot of Ukraine (PU) and the Minister of the Interior (who oversees the national guard) came from the same province and had already worked together for five years in a number of shady dealings.[535]

In the meantime, Russian fascists have become split between joining separatist groups against the EuroMaidan movement and its new government, on the one hand, and demonstrating against Russian aid to separatists, on the other. Other far-right battalions include Aidar, accused of war crimes by Amnesty International, battalion OUN, the battalion of Pravy Sektor, the Svoboda battalion “Sich,” and more—thirty to forty battalions ranging from parafascism to neo-Nazism.[536]

Fighting on the Donbass side of the civil war were other groups of neofascists, including a group that united French, Spanish, and Serbian Duginists in combat under the banner of Unité Continentale (Continental Unity), clearly referencing Unité Radicale. On the French side, two activists formerly of Jeunesses identitaires—an early youth affiliate of Bloc Identitaire—joined Unité, one of whom had also been a member of Bouchet’s old outfit, Troisième Voie. This combatant, named Guillaume Cuvelier, acted as a member of the Front National’s security service in 2014. Others who came to fight on the separatist side included the Polish Falanga and an Italian organization called Millenium, which has connections with Mutti and Dugin and whose leaders showed up in Donetsk to a reception by Pavel Gubarev, head of the Narodnoye opolcheniye Donbassa (Donbass People’s Militia), who hailed them as “Italian antifascist volunteers.” In the words of scholar Giovanni Savino at the time, their involvement actually “indicates that the Donetsk People’s Republic was becoming a playground for fascist-inspired nationalism from all over Europe.”[537]




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Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/28/22 08:58 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677312 - 02/28/22 07:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Ok so I promise I won't talk about goats anymore if you kindly explain to me why I should feel like its partly my govts  fault when people are acting like this Nazi thing was an issue that requires an invasion and I'm not even sure that's true ?





Well referring back to what Aaron Mate laid out regarding the U.S. government’s involvement in overthrowing the Ukraine government in 2014, the continuing refusal to negotiate being pushed by Biden etc. I’d have to go back and watch it again to quote it correctly and I’m at work at the moment.
Also I never said this was the U.S. government’s fault I said they are part of the problem.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro] * 1
    #27677377 - 02/28/22 08:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ukraine on Fire documentary goes into it, the coup, etc. It's worth a watch to see that side whether or not believable, it saying the Nazi element there goes back to the WW2 era.




    Ok but that was 7 years ago . What happened last  week that required an invasion ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677380 - 02/28/22 08:10 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
At least my govt tells me when we are going to war Lol .



All the shitfuckery behind the scenes doesn’t count then?



Not really. There is no excuse for it


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27677392 - 02/28/22 08:15 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

No excuse for what? The U.S. government meddling in other countries affairs? I agree.

Also, I still think Putin’s a cunt and he should not have invaded Ukraine.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677399 - 02/28/22 08:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Macron had a meeting with Putin today and he's saying the Russians are going to target civilians .  Let's not forget about how much we hate America though you guys .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677417 - 02/28/22 08:28 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Why do you hate America? I don’t.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27677445 - 02/28/22 08:48 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

One of the most pervasive distortions of Russian state propaganda is that the events in Ukraine were not grassroots in origin, but a NATO/USA funded coup. You'll see this repeated ad nauseam once it's been pointed out to you:

- "We're the ones who orchestrated the coup against Ukraine's democratically elected President to make them a US puppet."

- "The US orchestrated an unconstitutional coup against Ukraine's democratically elected president, and installed a US friendly president."

- "Maybe the US shouldn't have orchestrated a coup to put in a US friendly President in charge of Ukraine in the first place?"

- "Why is this Putin's fault for defending Russians and not the US's for orchestrating a coup to overthrow the elected Ukrainian President with a corrupt Washington lackey?"

- "It was a mistake for the US to orchestrate a coup in Ukraine in the first place because we didn't like their elected leader."



Thing is, all the secret manipulation in the world won't suffice to generate mass uprisings where there is no popular discontent, and Ukraine is no exception. Externalizing the source of Ukrainian discontent is a foundational aspect of the Russian state's justification for this war, and it's not something we should be repeating without making this connection explicit - unless we want to become unwitting participants in the propaganda network.

I grabbed this reading list for anyone interested in diving deep into the background of this conflict from an anti-authoritarian perspective:


- Ukraine: A Harsh Antifascist Confrontation Awaits Us—About nationalist violence and cooptation directed at anarchists and antifascists

- Maidan and Its Contradictions: An Interview with a Ukrainian Revolutionary Syndicalist—One of the most detailed sources of anti-authoritarian perspective on these events we’ve been able to find in English

- Ukrainian Anarchist Dispels Myths Surrounding Euromaidan Protests, Warns of Fascist Influence—Transcript of an in-depth radio interview on The Final Straw with a member of the Autonomous Workers’ Union, some weeks before the climax of the protests

- The Ukrainian Euromaidan: The Solution to Putin, or Just Another Fascist Political Coup?—Thorough background on the statist and fascist interests involved in the Euromaidan protests

- Ukraine Riots: “Involuntary Ejaculation of Fire”—An analysis of the causes behind the street confrontations in Kiev in January, 2014

- Fifty Shades of Brown—Thoughts on the overthrow of the Yanukovych regime from the Autonomous Workers Union

- Lviv 19–21 February 2014—A personal narrative about the developments in Lviv

- Readers may also want to consult our recent interview with a member of Kiev’s Autonomous Workers’ Union and our older article about nationalism and behind-the-scenes manipulation of social movements in Serbia: Fake Revolutions, Real Struggles.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/28/22 08:55 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27677531 - 02/28/22 10:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Many people have been very outspoken that NATO expansion eastward might catalyze a war. People like Ted Carpenter have been writing books for nearly 2 decades waring about the dangers of NATO and predicting an expansion “would constitute a needless provocation of Russia.”

I've heard some explanations why the timing of invading now might have a lot of strategy behind it. Of course, most of the news will not cover that. There are many factors in play here.  But the media just wants to play to the simpletons and make it about the insane evil dictator Putin. Americans cheer a few days of Ukranian resistance. Russia and China play the long game of years and decades. It funny to watch the media right now - they are all a joke.

I flip around all of the news channels, and most refuse to even utter the word NATO

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #27677535 - 02/28/22 10:04 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Russia and China play the long game of years and decades.





I wouldn't doubt it.. but what is the long game here even?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Fiery]
    #27677615 - 02/28/22 11:09 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

And here are a few more recent articles from the anarchist perspective published within the last few weeks:


February 3rd - Ukraine: Between Two Fires
Quote:

In hopes of providing crucial background on the current tensions between Russia, Ukraine, the United States, and other members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), we present the transcript of an excellent interview with an anarchist in Ukraine, followed by another perspective contributed by a Ukrainian anarchist from Lugansk who is now located in Kiev. We are awaiting another text from a group of Ukrainian anarchists, which we hope to publish shortly.





February 15th - War and Anarchists: Anti-Authoritarian Perspectives in Ukraine
Quote:

We present this article composed by anarchists in Ukraine to give context for how some participants in social movements there see the difficult events that have played out there over the past nine years. We believe that it is important for people everywhere to grapple with the events they describe below and the questions that those developments pose. This text should be read in the context of the other perspectives we have published from Ukraine and Russia.





February 26th - Russian Anarchists on the Invasion of Ukraine
Quote:

As the Russian invasion of Ukraine proceeds, anarchists throughout Russia continue to mobilize in protest, joining thousands of other Russians. Here, we publish two statements from longtime Russian anarchist projects that offer some analysis of the situation in Russia and how the invasion of Ukraine might shift it.



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27677887 - 03/01/22 06:16 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
You didn’t watch it? No worries  :thumbup:




I'll watch it if you can edit out the Jimmy Dore parts.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27677895 - 03/01/22 06:26 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Haha you may have to turn the sound down but Aaron Mate is worth listening to.

I tell you what is worth watching is the video below.

Quote:

syncro said:
The Ukraine on Fire documentary goes into it, the coup, etc. It's worth a watch to see that side whether or not believable, it saying the Nazi element there goes back to the WW2 era.





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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677954 - 03/01/22 08:18 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

You know what's really funny about the video you posted , other than the rambling about Hunter Biden and the millions they made , ( like if that's relevant ).
  It claims Nazis are slaughtering people in Ukraine, but there were no refugees fleeing the violence like we see now . I guess they enjoyed the  Nazi slaughter .  Do you have anything to say about Dore's seemingly untrue claim that Aron seems to confirm ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677986 - 03/01/22 09:00 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I'm still processing how Putin is freeing the Ukranians from nazism they are being subjected to under their very Jewish president


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
    #27677994 - 03/01/22 09:07 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: oursoulsinmotion]
    #27678015 - 03/01/22 09:19 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The reason Russia is going after Ukraine is because of there white supremacy they have..there is videos of them treating Africans differently.

They are allowed white people to leave the country first an forcing Africans to leave last .

Edited by Mach z 800 (03/01/22 09:22 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
    #27678022 - 03/01/22 09:24 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'm still processing how Putin is freeing the Ukranians from nazism they are being subjected to under their very Jewish president




  You saw the Dore video too ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27678028 - 03/01/22 09:31 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
The reason Russia is going after Ukraine is because of there white supremacy they have..there is videos of them treating Africans differently.

They are allowed white people to leave the country first an forcing Africans to leave last .





Mach, dude :facepalm:, do you even understand what comes out of your mouth half the time?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27678267 - 03/01/22 01:16 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

I'm still processing how Putin is freeing the Ukrainians from Nazism they are being subjected to under their very Jewish president




  You saw the Dire video too ?




Check out that doco by Oliver Stone that syncro posted, it explains the Nazi reference very well and lays out exactly how the Maydan coup was orchestrated with the help of the U.S. government, simple as that.

Like most stories there's a lot that's happened to lead to this point :shrug: anyone should be able to look at these stories and comment without being labelled a Putin apologist.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27678284 - 03/01/22 01:27 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

But Putin is not there trying to free them from nazism...  like, what?  That is such a reach compared to ideas like westward expansion, fighting for resources, etc...  sending in squads to kill the Jewish president because he has a nazi agenda?  No way man, this has nothing to do with nazism.

Like, Putin just tried to get Alexei Nevalny killed a year or two ago and then locked his ass up for no reason besides promoting transparancy.. I don't understand how anyone can believe that Putin is being an altruistic leader who wants denazification of Ukraine by bombing them, killing random people, and desperately trying to assassinate the president


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
    #27678290 - 03/01/22 01:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psicomvb said:
Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
The reason Russia is going after Ukraine is because of there white supremacy they have..there is videos of them treating Africans differently.

They are allowed white people to leave the country first an forcing Africans to leave last .





Mach, dude :facepalm:, do you even understand what comes out of your mouth half the time?



Quote:

Psicomvb said:
Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
The reason Russia is going after Ukraine is because of there white supremacy they have..there is videos of them treating Africans differently.

They are allowed white people to leave the country first an forcing Africans to leave last .





Mach, dude :facepalm:, do you even understand what comes out of your mouth half the time?


well its true they are no better than American so in away its a good thing Russia is doing this. Those citizens from Africa should be a priority to protect.  Instead they are being segregated .

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
    #27678291 - 03/01/22 01:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not making excuses for Putin, nor was Aaron Mate, nor was Oliver Stone.

Everyone agrees that he has gone too far.

All I was trying to say was there's a lot that has gone on before this to lead to this point and after watching that other doco that syncro posted yeah, there IS a neo-Nazi element in Ukraine. Western Ukraine sided with the Nazi's in WW2.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27678299 - 03/01/22 01:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Calling Euromaidan a US orchestrated coup is a distortion of reality. If your comments are a one-sided misrepresentation, intentional or not you are engaging in apologism. Now, full disclosure, I don't have an internet connection that allows for quick streaming of video, so I haven't watched the documentary in question - but I am familiar with the events. Perhaps, if the documentary "lays out exactly" how things happened, you can provide a brief summary here.

Otherwise, to continually repeat the refrain that this was a US orchestrated coup without acknowledging that then-President Yanukovych's decision to delay ratification of an admission treaty with the EU is largely seen as the initial trigger for protests, is to provide a one-sided truth.

To pretend that US funded a violent revolution without acknowledging that Ukrainian state police were responsible for the initial escalation into violence, is to provide a one-sided truth.

To pretend that the Russian state is acting to protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine from nazis without acknowledging that ultranationalist fascist groups are well represented on both sides of this conflict, is to provide a one-sided truth.

Repeating one-sided truths isn't an exercise in fact finding - it's engagement with propaganda networks.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27678300 - 03/01/22 01:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I'm not making excuses for Putin, nor was Aaron Mate, nor was Oliver Stone.

Everyone agrees that he has gone too far.

All I was trying to say was there's a lot that has gone on before this to lead to this point and after watching that other doco that syncro posted yeah, there IS a neo-Nazi element in Ukraine. Western Ukraine sided with the Nazi's in WW2.





I get what you're saying but with that logic there's a nazi element in the United States too man. For example, we welcomed many of them with open arms as long as they could do science experiments. Doesn't mean Nazis have taken over their country, or America.  They definitely exist but having a Jewish president who pushes a democratic agenda is very, very not nazi

There are nazis everywhere man, Russia has more than enough to share themselves.. and yet here Russia is in Ukraine fighting against "neo nazis".

I will try n watch that doc cuz I respect some stuff oliver stone has done.  I tried the Dore video and lasted 30 seconds, and I don't mean it made me cum :crankey:

I need to read up on some of your links too, Shiva


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27678305 - 03/01/22 01:57 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Hi shiva I was thinking of your comment yesterday and did want to address the point you made regarding the idea that coups are ultimately decided by the people.

I'd have to watch it again to properly quote it and I am happy to do so, I just have to get to work, but I will.

And I'm sorry I don't agree that looking a bit deeper into an issue is promoting propaganda.

Should we allow only half the story to be heard? Isn't that exactly the problem with these on-going wars the U.S. keeps funding?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
    #27678310 - 03/01/22 01:59 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

It's true that, thanks to their active participation in the Maidan protests of 2014, the Ukrainian ultra-right has secured an outsize position in politics and law enforcement agencies - but in all the elections in Ukraine since 2014, they have won no more than a few percent points of the vote. The problem of the Ukrainian ultra-right must be solved, but it won't be solved with Russian tanks.

In the immediate aftermath of Euromaidan, Russia launched a propaganda campaign using the following messaging: “punishers,” (aka nazis) are coming from Kyiv to Donetsk, they want to destroy the Russian-speaking population (although Kyiv is also a predominantly Russian-speaking city). In their disinformation statements, they spread all kinds of fake news - one of the most notorious hoaxes? - the so-called crucifixion of a three-year-old boy who was allegedly attached to a tank and dragged along the road.

This propaganda campaign has been very successful within the Russo-sphere - especially when coupled with the mythology of the 'Great Patriotic War' - but why anyone outside of that bubble would honestly believe Russia could possibly represent an antifascist force today is beyond my kenning.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
    #27678313 - 03/01/22 02:00 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psicomvb said:

I get what you're saying but with that logic there's a nazi element in the United States too man. For example, we welcomed many of them with open arms as long as they could do science experiments. Doesn't mean Nazis have taken over their country, or America.  They definitely exist but having a Jewish president who pushes a democratic agenda is very, very not nazi

There are nazis everywhere man, Russia has more than enough to share themselves.. and yet here Russia is in Ukraine fighting against "neo nazis".

I will try n watch that doc cuz I respect some stuff oliver stone has done.  I tried the Dore video and lasted 30 seconds, and I don't mean it made me cum :crankey:





:thumbup: cool bananas, that Oliver Stone doco explains a lot... remember that merry band of pranksters the CIA? Yep.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27678317 - 03/01/22 02:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The problem of the Ukrainian ultra-right must be solved, but it won't be solved with Russian tanks.





Agreed. I'll get back to you.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27678326 - 03/01/22 02:07 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The link the the video that synchro posted is broken. Do you have another link?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27678330 - 03/01/22 02:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

When the other side is telling lies and  killing civilians as they launch an invasion into their neighbor I  really don't give a fuck about their side of the argument .  That's honestly stupid .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27678333 - 03/01/22 02:10 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
And I'm sorry I don't agree that looking a bit deeper into an issue is promoting propaganda.

Should we allow only half the story to be heard? Isn't that exactly the problem with these on-going wars the U.S. keeps funding?



I have no problem with looking deeper. My problem is that what you describe as looking deeper is just providing another one-sided story. It might seem like we can just add up the different half stories in order to reach the whole truth, but unfortunately in this case the sum of the parts is lesser than the whole.

I've provided more than a few resources that investigate deeper into the Western statist influences in Ukraine, without falling into Russian state apologism. I recommend this one, and I imagine it's even more in-depth than could be offered by a documentary: The Ukrainian Euromaidan: The Solution to Putin, or Just Another Fascist Political Coup?

But yeah, take your time to respond to that last post of mine that you mentioned. It contains a lot of further reading, but I've tried to give brief summaries so you can focus on aspects that strike you as more relevant. I don't recommend readings unless I've already taken the time to read them myself, so I can also provide further direction on relevant passages if you don't feel like wading through the whole thing.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27678350 - 03/01/22 02:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I know none of you are likely to have much reason to believe the veracity of these claims - but the way international anarchist communication networks function is like this: I may not know anyone in Ukraine, but I know someone in Canada who I trust, and they know someone in Ukraine who they trust - so, I will trust this person in Ukraine to the same extent I trust my friend in Canada. It might seem precarious, but over time you can build very effective networks around trust-based relationships that are able to cover the entire globe. With that in mind, I have great personal reason to trust the veracity of these claims.


Ukraine: Between Two Fires

Quote:

A lot of people in the West, influenced by Russian propaganda and the disinformation campaign, started to believe the narrative that what happened in Ukraine back in 2014 was a fascist coup supported by NATO. Some journalists—also liberals, but besides liberals, there were also anarchists and leftists who reproduced that narrative—argued that it was a NATO coup and that a fascist government was established afterwards.

Can you evaluate that narrative? Was it like that, or was there something else happening at that point?


Yes, I think I can speak about it confidently, because I participated in the events myself. I was in Kiev for nine days in the very hot phase of the conflict in February. So what I witnessed personally was the really popular movement in which hundreds of thousands of people [participated]. When I discussed it later with some Western comrades, I heard these speculations about what NATO did behind the scenes and a Nazi coup and stuff like this. Other people answered that, OK, if there were hundreds of thousands of people on the streets, it could not be just an orchestrated coup or something like that.

The far right participated in this, of course. They participated actively, made effective political developments in this, and were very aggressive, very dominant, and successful to a certain point. But they were still a minority in these protests, of course. And even though their ideological influence—it did really exist, it’s true, but they were not the ones who were legislating the protests, or who really designed the demands and the ideological face of these events.

I saw a lot of very spontaneous popular self-organization. I saw a lot of very sincere popular unrest and anger against the state establishment, which really made this country poor and humiliated. So to the biggest extent, it was absolutely an authentic popular uprising. Even though, of course, all of the political powers who could benefit from it tried to influence it as hard as they could. And they were partly successful.

But I take this mostly as the question to us—to libertarians, anarchists, the radical left if you want—why weren’t we organized enough to compete effectively with fascists? This is not a question to the Maidan movement or to the people of Ukraine, but to us. And once again, to summarize, Maidan was first of all a popular uprising.




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Edited by shivas.wisdom (03/01/22 02:26 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27678401 - 03/01/22 03:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

"Otherwise, to continually repeat the refrain that this was a US orchestrated coup without acknowledging that then-President Yanukovych's decision to delay ratification of an admission treaty with the EU is largely seen as the initial trigger for protests, is to provide a one-sided truth."

If I recall correctly in the Ukraine on Fire doc, Yanukovych was interviewed and saying that the deal with the EU was economically very unfavorable compared to what was available continuing the trade with Russia. I don't recall more details around it.

Edited by syncro (03/01/22 03:02 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
    #27678450 - 03/01/22 03:44 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

war bad

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
    #27678458 - 03/01/22 03:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, that was his official reasoning and there is likely some truth to it - most neoliberal trade agreements benefit profit over people - but this was still a deeply unpopular decision to many Ukrainians who considered the rejection as another of Yanukovych’s Putin-friendly maneuvers, made against the backdrop of the country’s sizeable debt for gas from Russia and the formation of the Eurasian Economic Union (with it's own unfavourable conditions).

At that point, every political power who could benefit from it tried to influence Ukraine as hard as they could - and they were all partly successful. The only real loser here was the common people of Ukraine.

Did the USA influence the events? Absolutely - but to say they orchestrated a coup is to ignore all the other actions taken by Western and Russian leaders, and the Ukrainian ruling class, that created the conditions for such popular discontent in the first place.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27678598 - 03/01/22 05:31 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
No excuse for what? The U.S. government meddling in other countries affairs? I agree.

Also, I still think Putin’s a cunt and he should not have invaded Ukraine.




This has nothing to do with the US. This is about Putin’s imperialistic desires


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Edited by koods (03/01/22 05:32 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Markamello]
    #27678604 - 03/01/22 05:34 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Markamello said:
The link the the video that synchro posted is broken. Do you have another link?




Smoko.

Try this one


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27678607 - 03/01/22 05:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
When the other side is telling lies and  killing civilians as they launch an invasion into their neighbor I  really don't give a fuck about their side of the argument .  That's honestly stupid .



Fine, if you're happy not looking at it, it's no skin off my nose.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27678611 - 03/01/22 05:39 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
No excuse for what? The U.S. government meddling in other countries affairs? I agree.

Also, I still think Putin’s a cunt and he should not have invaded Ukraine.




This has nothing to do with the US. This is about Putin’s imperialistic desires




I think the U.S. government has stuck their beak into this and that's worth looking at.

Putin bad, everyone agrees yes? We can keep hating Russia etc later, it's old news.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27678626 - 03/01/22 05:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Why later? Seems like now is the appropriate time.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #27679154 - 03/02/22 04:38 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
No excuse for what? The U.S. government meddling in other countries affairs? I agree.

Also, I still think Putin’s a cunt and he should not have invaded Ukraine.




This has nothing to do with the US. This is about Putin’s imperialistic desires


putin is fighting nazis an white supremacist so in a way i think what hes doing is a good thing. Like i said they are treating people from Africa in Ukraine like slaves we cant have this.

Watch "Black Africans escaping war in Ukraine denied Entry into Poland." on YouTube


Watch "Fleeing African and Indian students face racism at Ukraine border" on YouTube

Edited by Mach z 800 (03/02/22 04:47 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 1
    #27679176 - 03/02/22 05:28 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

So if I'm shelling Hitler, but I miss and explode your mothers skull like a grape right in front of you.. all good? Can you show me which ones they are shelling and shooting that were the Nazis? Can you point me to their Auschwitz? There are racist organizations in the US like the KKK and Planned Parenthood, time for China to invade? Joseph Herzl's Zionists, perfect excuse to murder women and children en masse, eh? Two wrongs don't make a right, and making weak unjustified comparisons will never make you right either.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: larry.fisherman] * 1
    #27679244 - 03/02/22 07:11 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
So if I'm shelling Hitler, but I miss and explode your mothers skull like a grape right in front of you.. all good? Can you show me which ones they are shelling and shooting that were the Nazis? Can you point me to their Auschwitz? There are racist organizations in the US like the KKK and Planned Parenthood, time for China to invade? Joseph Herzl's Zionists, perfect excuse to murder women and children en masse, eh? Two wrongs don't make a right, and making weak unjustified comparisons will never make you right either.


Watch "Inside A White Supremacist Militia in Ukraine" on YouTube


This what putin is trying to stop we must stick up for the Africans stranded in Ukraine.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800] * 2
    #27679293 - 03/02/22 07:51 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Why are the black people running from the Russians that are there to help them ?
    Honestly though you should be banned to the conspiracy forum .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27679345 - 03/02/22 08:31 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
I'm not making excuses for Putin, nor was Aaron Mate, nor was Oliver Stone.

Everyone agrees that he has gone too far.

All I was trying to say was there's a lot that has gone on before this to lead to this point and after watching that other doco that syncro posted yeah, there IS a neo-Nazi element in Ukraine. Western Ukraine sided with the Nazi's in WW2.




OK, but I'm with Psicomvb. The invasion has nothing to do with Ukranian neo-Nazi tendencies.

In the U.S. many German Americans sided with the Nazis since the 30's. Since then disaffected non-Germans found a home in the American extreme right. Ukranians would have more reasons than people here do to feel this way, both socioeconomic and from being part of the Soviet Union for 70 something years. But it has nothing to do with why Putin invaded.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27679372 - 03/02/22 08:53 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not making excuses for Putin, nor was Aaron Mate, nor was Oliver Stone



 
  Bullshit , the entire Dore video was an attempt to justify  the invasion  . Your lying .
  The Oliver stone video is from 2016 ,  not exactly relevant .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27679391 - 03/02/22 09:09 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Dore is ridiculously out of touch from what Ive seen. Idk why my man Joe Brogan endorses him so often


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan]
    #27679408 - 03/02/22 09:20 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Idk why my man Joe Brogan endorses him so often




Because they're feeding each others pockets dummy

Both of them are balling out harder than ever right now on sensationalism and opinions :doublejointed:


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
    #27679410 - 03/02/22 09:21 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Joe Rogan? Doing something for money? Unthinkable....


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan]
    #27679417 - 03/02/22 09:26 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Ya, who would've guessed?  People like getting paid shitloads.  Glad you caught my facetiousness.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27679775 - 03/02/22 02:28 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Calling Euromaidan a US orchestrated coup is a distortion of reality. If your comments are a one-sided misrepresentation, intentional or not you are engaging in apologism. Now, full disclosure, I don't have an internet connection that allows for quick streaming of video, so I haven't watched the documentary in question - but I am familiar with the events. Perhaps, if the documentary "lays out exactly" how things happened, you can provide a brief summary here.

Otherwise, to continually repeat the refrain that this was a US orchestrated coup without acknowledging that then-President Yanukovych's decision to delay ratification of an admission treaty with the EU is largely seen as the initial trigger for protests, is to provide a one-sided truth.

To pretend that US funded a violent revolution without acknowledging that Ukrainian state police were responsible for the initial escalation into violence, is to provide a one-sided truth.

To pretend that the Russian state is acting to protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine from nazis without acknowledging that ultranationalist fascist groups are well represented on both sides of this conflict, is to provide a one-sided truth.

Repeating one-sided truths isn't an exercise in fact finding - it's engagement with propaganda networks.




I played the video again thinking I'd put together a brief summary but there are too many details, too many names, too many connected players, too many turn of events, etc etc. Anyone who watched it would agree... like shit it's an Oliver Stone documentary that goes for an hour 33 minutes, it's detail after detail non stop.
I'll pick one point and try my best to give you a decent response.

Quote:

To pretend that US funded a violent revolution without acknowledging that Ukrainian state police were responsible for the initial escalation into violence, is to provide a one-sided truth.





According to Oliver Stone the Ukrainian state police were not the initiators of the violence.

You are most likely aware of some of this but, to get a better insight into the events of 2014 we have to go back to the the tightly contested 2004 election between Russian leaning Eastern Ukraine(confusing yes)Victor Yanukovych and U.S. backed
anti-Semitic Western Ukraine Victor Yushenko(his wife worked previously for the U.S. State Department and yes he was backed by the U.S. government)

The one term President Yushenko failed to deliver on important reforms for his country and in 2010 Yanukovych won easily in a ballot that the international community accepted as legitimate.

It's important to note that one of the last things Yushenko did for his supporters in Western Ukraine before he left office was to sign a decree declaring Hero of Ukraine along with Order of State to the Jew killing Nazi sympathizer Stepan Bandera (which Yanukovych later overturned) but the significance of this shouldn't be discounted.

So Yanukovych takes over a basket case economy and negotiates with the IMF/EU to try and fund reform.

The IMF/EU were a pack of bastards and wanted to screw ordinary Ukrainian people with higher gas and electricity prices, with no wage rise in sight, in return for their $$ support. Yanukovych found this unacceptable. Russia on the other hand was willing
to partner with Ukraine with trade deals etc to benefit both countries, circumventing the EU and establishing a united economy.

The doco shows Yanukovych telling Angela Merkel in no uncertain terms that he tried in vain for 3 years to negotiate a deal with the EU with no success, and now with the threat of a trade war looming with Russia over the EU deal he was pursuing, in his own words "they decided to take a pause" in negotiating a deal, and he returns to Ukraine in November 2013 to a large protest of over 100 000 people.

This is where the shitfuckery begins, well actually it had began earlier when a lot of well funded Non Government Organisations had started appearing, 'financed from abroad'. 3 new TV stations suddenly sprung up(basket case economy don't forget) on November 21st, 22nd and 24th. These stations kept promoting the cause and helped draw ordinary peaceful citizens to the protest.

Enter The CIA.
After giving themselves such a deservedly bad name in the 50's 60's and 70's, the CIA , in this instance, was rebranded into another organisation by the Reagan administration in 1983 under the guise of "The National Endowment for Democracy". It was from there the NGO's in Ukraine were funded.

According to acclaimed investigative journalist Robert Parry cashed up and using a familiar playbook from uprisings seen in other countries the NGO's were responsible for
* supporting various political groups
* funding media
* training activists
* dealing with journalists and various business groups
* try to advance U.S Foreign Policy interest sometimes against the interest of the 'host' or 'target' country
They worked on things like, how to get traction on a story, how to get them to go viral, and how to use that to generate support for their cause. Mustafa Nayem, head of one of the newly formed TV stations Hromadske played his part and it was his Facebook post on November 21 that first drew the crowds to the Maidan

At that first protest on November 21 the 3 main opposition group leaders attended including the leader of Svoboda Party far right nationalist and anti-Semetic Oleh Tyahnybok
In those first days of the protest starting November 21st the police were not expecting violence, they were unarmed.

It was on November 24th that things got ugly. Far right activists were spotted through the crowd and the violence started. The police guarding The Cabinet Ministry of Ukraine building were attacked and another attack followed on November 25th.

I'm cutting out a lot of the finer details here but the next flashpoint that tipped the protest into overdrive was the events on November 30.

The head of the Kiev Municipality(Mayor) Oleksander Popov, rang Minister of Interior Affairs(basically the person in charge of the police/security) Vitaliy Zakharchenko and requested to bring a huge Christmas tree into the Maidan as happened every year.
Vitaliy said this would not be possible with the large crowd still gathered in the Maidan.

Around 1.am he had a phone conversation with the head of the Ukraine Secret Service who said that thankfully from the information he was receiving the protest was winding down and pretty much over.

Zakharchenko turns on his TV at 6.30 a.m. next day and 'broke out in a cold sweat' watching the police beating protesters with batons. Yanukovych said he was against using any violation of human rights against the protesters and was hoping for dialogue.

Yanukovych and Zakharchenko ask for an investigation into who gave the order to break up the protest under the guise of bringing the Christmas decorations into the square as Popov did not have the authority to do so.
Popov was subordinate the the Chief of Staff Serhiy Lyovochkin who has close associations with many U.S politicians including Geoffrey Pyatt and Victoria Nuland.


I'm going to have to stop here, even though there is a lot more information on how Pyatt and Nuland schemed behind the scenes to install politicians favourable to the U.S.
Also the details behind why Yanukovych fled to Russia are worth explaining but it's too much for one post and will turn into a novel.

I hope that addresses the point you made above shiva. Honestly it'd take me a week to further summarise the events, they are complicated, there are a lot of players in this and yeah the U.S. government have pushed their own agenda in Ukraine which has played a huge part in the mechanics of the current situation.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27679784 - 03/02/22 02:38 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

I'm not making excuses for Putin, nor was Aaron Mate, nor was Oliver Stone



 
  Bullshit , the entire Dore video was an attempt to justify  the invasion  . Your lying .
  The Oliver stone video is from 2016 ,  not exactly relevant .





:pink:

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 2
    #27679792 - 03/02/22 02:50 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Stable Genius said:
No excuse for what? The U.S. government meddling in other countries affairs? I agree.

Also, I still think Putin’s a cunt and he should not have invaded Ukraine.




This has nothing to do with the US. This is about Putin’s imperialistic desires




It has everything to do with the US.
This is your proxy frontline in Europe.

They have already lost this trench.and are busy helping dig in a fallback line with the rest of Europe.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: pineninja]
    #27679802 - 03/02/22 02:54 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

:coolpost:

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27679809 - 03/02/22 03:03 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Why are the black people running from the Russians that are there to help them ?
    Honestly though you should be banned to the conspiracy forum .




:joneswtf:

Because he quotes Time Magazine?

:yougoodjob:

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27679811 - 03/02/22 03:05 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I notice in my offline life that some antivax people tend to have pro russia stances. Its like their position is contrarianism.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Asante]
    #27679843 - 03/02/22 03:42 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Asante] * 4
    #27679851 - 03/02/22 03:49 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
I notice in my offline life that some antivax people tend to have pro russia stances. Its like their position is contrarianism.




I'm 100% pro vax and trippled the fuk up, but I can't say I'm keen on the 100% anti Russian bias and the sentimental mommas and babes being slaughtered that I'm getting from the BEEB here right now.

I don't recall so much worry about the babes being killed during the 'shock and awe' barrage aimed at Iraq. In fact many Americans viewed it as little more than a firework display and were like :mericafuckyeah: as women and children were being killed by their heroic navy firing their cruise missiles from a hundred miles away against a country whose navy consisted of half a dozen fishing boats. Maybe they don't count as much seeing as they weren't a democracy and they have a darker skin than your average Ukranian. :shrug:





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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Asante] * 4
    #27679888 - 03/02/22 04:26 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
I notice in my offline life that some antivax people tend to have pro russia stances. Its like their position is contrarianism.



Definitely. Lotta those dudes just dont wanna be seen believing what neo-lib media tells them. If CNN did a story about how it's bad to consume feces there'd be Shit Eaters movements popping up


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Asante]
    #27679889 - 03/02/22 04:26 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
I notice in my offline life that some antivax people tend to have pro russia stances. Its like their position is contrarianism.




They probably watch Tucker Carlson.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan] * 3
    #27679895 - 03/02/22 04:32 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

That being said, NATO definitely played a significant role in creating this crisis if not the prime role, and that isn't rlly being discussed in main stream media much at all. Ive also seen very few cold war parallels being pointed out, like the invasion of Czechoslovakia. Kinda cliche thing to say, but both main sides are so far off base. As usual, neither official narrative is going to be based in reality. Most the people I've seen trying to blame it on NATO have that stance for the wrong reasons, and most of the people I see who are die-hard for the "Putin is a psychopath" argument are obviously way far off base and seems like they will never understand geo-politics. Someone referring to Putin as having gone mad is number 1 red flag that someone has no idea what's going on or how we got here and probably has a Joe Biden body pillow they sleep with

And why the fuck should they... the structure of the world and civilization is fucked up, fucked up shit will continue to happen all the time with no pretty narrative, and we will all suffer under the system under everybody is dead.

Third time in 24 hours that I've used the phrase "off base". Can I go for four?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27679925 - 03/02/22 04:56 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Why are the black people running from the Russians that are there to help them ?
    Honestly though you should be banned to the conspiracy forum .




:joneswtf:

Because he quotes Time Magazine?

:yougoodjob:


dam right the times are accurate as it gets.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan]
    #27679992 - 03/02/22 05:50 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

*until everybody is dead


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Near Dylan]
    #27680053 - 03/02/22 06:41 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (03/02/22 06:45 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27680065 - 03/02/22 06:53 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

So what is it? What's the update on this? What's the word?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: budmanman]
    #27680071 - 03/02/22 06:59 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

From what I can tell it is a vacuumed bomb thing.


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Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27680182 - 03/02/22 08:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Because he quotes Time Magazine




   

Quote:

dam right the times are accurate as it gets.




  Pretty sure he got this from your Dore video, that's exactly what he said .

Quote:

The reason Russia is going after Ukraine is because of there white supremacy they have.




Were you quoting the times dr Mach ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Asante] * 4
    #27680201 - 03/02/22 09:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
I notice in my offline life that some antivax people tend to have pro russia stances. Its like their position is contrarianism.




The PNAC was always going to bump up against Russia and ultimately China eventually.

People can lie to themselves if they like, but America/NATO is far from blameless in all of this and worryingly there are a lot of parallels between the world of now and 1914, with neither side sensible or -I worry- even capable of backing down.

Would you disagree that the US and the west have been incredibly hostile towards both Russia (and China) during the last twenty years giving the former plenty of cause to be paranoid about having NATO/US weapon systems moved onto their borders?

The US pushes both Ukraine and Taiwan to stand up to their much more powerful neighbours, informing them that they are at their backs! Then when the tanks roll in they desert them and milk the propaganda victory with worldwide condemnation of the war criminals (which is rich). Then they can achieve a real economic war against Russia with the full support of the public and western governments.

Of course, this is sensible as nobody wants world war three, but the point is, they are only using their allies as sacrificial pawns in a wider geopolitical chess game aimed at the more powerful Russia and China for the ultimate purpose of isolating/strangling these powers and maintaining western hegemony. They don’t give two shits about what actually happens to the Ukrainian or Taiwanese people, but make no mistake that this kind of irresponsible warmongering behaviour could ignite the powder keg that sees the entire world go up in smoke.

Now instead of de-escalation we are pouring gasoline onto the fire (a proxy war?) and of course anyone who so much as questions the hive-mind narrative is an outcast just as is anyone who refuses or questions the covid vaccine/, which incidentally does not make them anti-vaccine, only anti-covid-vaccine.

So Russia is directing its armies at a belligerent US/western controlled Ukraine as it will not tolerate that kind of regime on its doorstep.

Would the US if the situation was reversed in Mexico? I mean be honest, really? Would they?

It should be remembered that it is not China or Russia who have spent the last 20 years conducting The War on Terrorism which according to its own architects in their own words (PNAC) is aimed at nothing less than US global supremacy through military (and even microbiological!) means.

After all the invasions and military (sorry humanitarian) interventions and violent coups (including in Ukraine) during the last 20 years proving this, conducted by those same neoconservatives in Washington and elsewhere, is it infeasible that Russia itself has decided that appeasement won’t work?

And the propaganda and hysteria are just insane!

There’s a post with about a million upvotes on 2X chromosomes (Reddit which is now just flooded with war propaganda) by a woman claiming she was gang-raped by Russian soldiers! Yeah right! After being gang-raped she’s straight onto Reddit to report it! No evidence is needed! Ludicrous stories of Russian soldiers who shot themselves after sending text messages to the Ukrainians to say sorry!

Never any mention of the US and NATO's own culpability in this debacle as if this isn’t a direct result of an aggressive post 911 foreign policy aiming to make isolated enemies of both Russia and China, especially the latter. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria. Devastating economic sanctions that have killed millions of men, women and children and suddenly we care? 

War is only evil to these people when it’s against their own psychopathic interests!

War is a terrible thing, and these people are all cut from the same kind of cloth IMO, but at least present both sides of the story instead of a hysterical script from Lord of the Rings!


--------------------
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Edited by wolf8312 (03/03/22 04:33 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27680225 - 03/02/22 09:40 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Did you mean to type Dr? I don't understand.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312] * 2
    #27680227 - 03/02/22 09:44 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

wolf8312 said:
Quote:

Asante said:
I notice in my offline life that some antivax people tend to have pro russia stances. Its like their position is contrarianism.




The PNAC was always going to bump up against Russia and ultimately China eventually.

People can lie to themselves if they like, but America/NATO is far from blameless in all of this and worryingly there are a lot of parallels between the world of now and 1914, with neither side sensible or -I worry- even capable of backing down.

Would you disagree that the US and the west have been incredibly hostile towards both Russia (and China) during the last twenty years giving the former plenty of cause to be paranoid about having NATO/US weapon systems moved onto their borders?

The US pushes both Ukraine and Taiwan to stand up to their much more powerful neighbours, informing them that they are at their backs! Then when the tanks roll in they desert them and milk the propaganda victory with worldwide condemnation of the war criminals (which is rich). Then they can achieve a real economic war against Russia with the full support of the public and western governments.

Of course, this is sensible as nobody wants world war three, but the point is, they are only using their allies as sacrificial pawns in a wider geopolitical chess game aimed at the more powerful Russia and China for the ultimate purpose of isolating/strangling these powers and maintaining western hegemony. They don’t give two shits about what actually happens to the Ukrainian or Taiwanese people, but make no mistake that this kind of irresponsible warmongering behaviour could ignite the powder keg that sees the entire world go up in smoke. Now instead of de-escalation we are pouring gasoline onto the fire (a proxy war?) and of course anyone who so much as questions the hive-mind narrative is a traitor.

Russia is directing its armies at a belligerent US/western controlled Ukraine as it will not tolerate that kind of regime on its doorstep.

Would the US if the situation was reversed in Mexico? I mean be honest, really? Would they?

It should be remembered that it is not China or Russia who have spent the last 20 years conducting The War on Terrorism which according to its own architects in their own words (PNAC) is aimed at nothing less than US global supremacy through military (and even microbiological!) means.

After all the invasions and military interventions and violent coups (including in Ukraine) during the last 20 years proving this, conducted by those same neoconservatives in Washington and elsewhere, is it infeasible that Russia itself has decided that appeasement won’t work?

And the propaganda and hysteria are just insane!

There’s a post with about a million upvotes on 2X chromosomes (Reddit which is now just flooded with war propaganda) by a woman claiming she was gang-raped by Russian soldiers! Yeah right! After being gang-raped she’s straight onto Reddit to report it! No evidence is needed! Ludicrous stories of Russian soldiers who shot themselves after sending text messages to the Ukrainians to say sorry!

Anyone who even questions this nonsense is an outcast or Russian shill or some kind of reactionary?

Never any mention of the US and NATO's own culpability in this debacle as if this isn’t a direct result of an aggressive post 911 foreign policy aiming to make isolated enemies of both Russia and China, especially the latter. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria. Devastating economic sanctions that have killed millions of men, women and children and suddenly we care? 

War is only evil to these people when it’s against their own psychopathic interests! When they do it (Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan etc) it is ‘humanitarian intervention’ only when it is Russia/China is it suddenly a heinous crime.

War is a terrible thing, and these people are all cut from the same kind of cloth IMO, but at least present both sides of the story instead of a hysterical script from Lord of the Rings!




:cookiemonster: :thumbup:

Watch out, you may get labelled a Putin apologist or a liar for having a sensible position.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312]
    #27680230 - 03/02/22 09:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Would the US if the situation was reversed in Mexico? I mean be honest, really? Would they?




    If we did , we would do it as a coalition , with support from around the world , like Iraq .
Not with world wide condemnation and accusations of being war criminals and targeting civilians in the first week. Largest land invasion Europe has seen since Hitler . 
 
      Seeing what's happening makes me think everything we've ever done to oppose Russia is a good thing and honestly we should have just nuked them in the 50s before the got their nuke program off the ground . Set them back a few centuries like they wanted.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27680237 - 03/02/22 09:51 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

:hahthatsrich:

Great idea, what could possibly go wrong.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27680238 - 03/02/22 09:54 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Watch out, you may get labelled a Putin apologist or a liar for having a sensible position.




            I have yet to hear anyone talk about Russias policy failures or Putins culpability for mistakes or stupid shit he's done over the years . Is it because y'all don't speak Russian and are completely incapable of forming an opinion due to unrealized ignorance about the Russian govt and how it operates ?
    Cause that's cool if that's the case , but if not , what should I think ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27680242 - 03/02/22 09:57 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Putin is using huge bombs that take out multiple city blocks on apartment buildings and universities.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27680252 - 03/02/22 10:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Hitler #2 . What's he going to do with everyone left alive when he wins ?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27680255 - 03/02/22 10:06 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

lol, says the guy that wants to nuke Russia. Thank fuck you're not running the show.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27680261 - 03/02/22 10:12 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I just Googled Russian policy failures but all it gave me was a list of U.S. policy failures toward Russia!

Try it.

Google must be a Putin apologist too.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27680265 - 03/02/22 10:16 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

So you don't how google works either ?


--------------------

Edited by Psilynut2 (03/02/22 10:19 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27680267 - 03/02/22 10:18 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


lol, says the guy that wants to nuke Russia. Thank fuck you're not running the show.



 
    Better me than some limp dick coward or stupid bitch that thinks Ukrainians should just surrender and beg for Russian citizenship .


--------------------

Edited by Psilynut2 (03/02/22 10:19 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27680268 - 03/02/22 10:19 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

Would the US if the situation was reversed in Mexico? I mean be honest, really? Would they?




    If we did , we would do it as a coalition , with support from around the world , like Iraq .
Not with world wide condemnation and accusations of being war criminals and targeting civilians in the first week. Largest land invasion Europe has seen since Hitler . 
 
      Seeing what's happening makes me think everything we've ever done to oppose Russia is a good thing and honestly we should have just nuked them in the 50s before the got their nuke program off the ground . Set them back a few centuries like they wanted.




Nuked them? Christ!


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: nooneman] * 2
    #27680270 - 03/02/22 10:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I heard an interesting Lenin quote on a podcast today. “There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.”

In the past week the EU, known for being divided, has come together to make unprecedented decisions. We haven’t seen sanctions on the scale of what’s being implemented now and the EU is fundamentally changing its behavior when it comes to defense. This invasion has ushered in massive changes.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27680273 - 03/02/22 10:21 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I just googled that and almost half the links were about Russia’s failed policies.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: wolf8312]
    #27680275 - 03/02/22 10:22 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Nuked them? Christ!




That's what they wanted to do in the 50s . They theorized that would be better than eventually finding ourselves in this situation .
  It's horrible , but they called it .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27680279 - 03/02/22 10:25 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I just googled that and almost half the links were about Russia’s failed policies.



I got that wrong I should have said over half.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27680284 - 03/02/22 10:27 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:


lol, says the guy that wants to nuke Russia. Thank fuck you're not running the show.



 
    Better me than some limp dick coward or stupid bitch that thinks Ukrainians should just surrender and beg for Russian citizenship .




You sound a little snotty? Go kick the dog, you’ll feel better.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27680288 - 03/02/22 10:31 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

Nuked them? Christ!




That's what they wanted to do in the 50s . They theorized that would be better than eventually finding ourselves in this situation .
  It's horrible , but they called it .




But that’s the trouble because it’s all about perspective. Each side thinks they have god on their side and that the other is just a contemptible bunch of savages deserving of being nuked cause they’d do it to us. Russiaphobia and an inability to let go of the past (or learn from it) is a big part of what is happening here, on both sides. I think we’re doomed to be honest as we will never change!


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown


Edited by wolf8312 (03/03/22 04:20 AM)

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