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OnlinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677278 - 02/28/22 06:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Ok so I promise I won't talk about goats anymore if you kindly explain to me why I should feel like its partly my govts  fault when people are acting like this Nazi thing was an issue that requires an invasion and I'm not even sure that's true ?
If Russia doesn't have a really good completely bullshit free reason for this invasion and the Nazi thing is bullshit then everything my govt has been doing to deter Russian expansion has been justified . Even the failures.


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Offlinesyncro
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27677285 - 02/28/22 06:53 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The Ukraine on Fire documentary goes into it, the coup, etc. It's worth a watch to see that side whether or not believable, it saying the Nazi element there goes back to the WW2 era.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro] * 1
    #27677294 - 02/28/22 07:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Azov Battalion was apparently incorporated into the Ukranian army after they fought the Russians in Crimea, they're a pretty big neo nazi name.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27677295 - 02/28/22 07:01 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, they would be referring to groups like Svoboda (translation: Freedom) and Pravy Sector (Right Wing); and events resulting from the 2014 euromaidan protests - in particular, when Pravy Sektor carried out a massacre in Odessa on May 2nd 2014 by driving Russia supporters into the trade union building and setting it on fire with molotov cocktails.

These events were mostly ignored by the 'collective West' and distorted into imperialist propaganda by the Russian state. Imo, if you want the closest approximation of truth, you should consider the anarchist / antifascist analysis - because here, the intent isn't to create a narrative that supports either Ukraine or Russia, rather the intent is to understand how fascists took power so we can better prevent it from happening again - distortion gives no benefit. If you recall my discussion about the fascist creep in the honkening thread, well 2014 Ukraine got its own chapter because it's such a good example of a creeping fascist takeover.

In ascending order of detail:

- Ukraine: How Nationalists Took the Lead
- Maidan: Democratic Movement or Nationalist Mobilization?
- Against the Fascist Creep: Chapter 8 Autonomous Nationalism and Fascist Geopolitics

Quote:

Ideology and Development of Ukraine’s EuroMaidan

Although the momentum of Autonomous Nationalist tendencies in Western Europe seemed to be dissipating by 2013 with key organizers abandoning the trend, in Eastern Europe, the practices of wearing black, moving as a bloc, and organizing spontaneously converged with the paramilitary exercises attached to parties like Svoboda in an extremely intimidating and radical revolutionary force. In that year, the Ukrainian government led by Viktor Yanukovych made a risky move. He postponed an important agreement with the EU in an attempt to negotiate its terms. The rejection was seen by liberals as another of Yanukovych’s Putin-friendly maneuvers, made against the backdrop of the country’s sizeable debt for gas from Russia.

An encampment grew virtually overnight at Independence Square (Maidan Nezalezhnosti) similar to the gatherings of the Orange Revolution between 2004 and 2005 and an earlier 1990 nationalist encampment. Ostensibly made up of liberals, mainstream nationalists, and NGOs, the EuroMaidan demonstrations expressed hope for economic development and human rights that would follow greater integration with the EU. While some compared the gathering to the Occupy movement in the United States, others noted that the dressing up in historic costumes and daily prayers led by priests gave the proceedings a more Tea Partyesque atmosphere. Really, it was both.

The movement garnered funding and media support from EU-friendly foundations and advocated for both Ukrainian nationalism (vis-à-vis independence from Russia) and a closer relationship with the EU. NGO support worked through the opportunism of young activists hoping to make a living for themselves in accordance with what is perceived as a Western standard of living. Since these NGOs were fueled by NATO dollars, activists working for them brought their energy, enthusiasm, and loyalty to NATO’s EU backers. Leftist commentators like Viktor Shapinov argue that oligarchs adjusting from the economic crash of 2008 had also invested their money in the EU agreement, using media and the social mobilization capacity of NGOs to unseat Yanukovich’s old economic model.[529]

After police attacked the demonstration, dispersing crowds with metal truncheons, protesters returned with greater resolve and increased nationalist resentment against the regime. Protests became increasingly aggressive, as barrages of rocks and bricks were followed by a tractor driven into police barricades and intense hand-to-hand combat. As the brutality of the police increased to include live ammunition and protesters were shot down in the streets, the mood of the Maidan encampment fostered an increasingly nationalist, right-wing spirit. Leftist protesters were beaten on-site by nationalists in EuroMaidan when they attempted to raise antinationalist positions, and militant ultranationalism was afforded the opportunity to set agendas.[530] A security detail called Pravy Sektor (literally, “Right Sector” or “Right Wing”) was organized by a coalition of far-right groups, including the national-revolutionary Trident (Tryzub) and the Social-National Assembly, which as can be gleaned from their name, is a largely neo-Nazi organization with close links to Svoboda.[531]

Pravy Sektor occupied the fifth floor of the Trade Union Building, which became the headquarters of the EuroMaidan movement. Composed of paramilitary fighters and former army soldiers, the defense units gutted a state assault vehicle with Molotov cocktails and carried out an often-vicious campaign of internecine war with state forces. EuroMaidan activists were followed, harassed, kidnapped, and beaten by police, and the trade union headquarters set ablaze. The EuroMaidan demonstrations only grew increasingly autonomous in their struggle against the entire political establishment, including even long-standing opposition parties. [532]


Civil War in Ukraine

By the end of February 2014, faced with police forces crossing over to the EuroMaidan side and the prospect of an all-out assault from its defense forces, Yanukovych fled Ukraine. New elections were held, with opposition parties gaining control of the government. In the civil war that followed Putin’s seizure of the Crimea, radical-right groups joined with neo-Nazis to inflict casualties against pro-Russian demonstrators. In May, Pravy Sektor carried out a massacre in Odessa, driving Russia supporters into the trade union building and setting it on fire with Molotov cocktails. Though the incident was documented on video, it was largely ignored or denied by the mainstream media.[533]

The new Kiev government ordered Pravy Sektor to turn in their arms, leading to a shootout in Western Ukraine, and a brief, small uprising was put down. Although members of the radical right assumed positions in office under the renewed oligarchy, Svoboda received a mere half of the votes they had obtained in 2012 before EuroMaidan. The organized radical right had reached a peak during EuroMaidan, but as they lost institutional support, many of their leading members were ushered into more mainstream parties like Arseniy Yatsenyuk’s Narodnyy front (Popular Front), Petro Poroshenko’s Blok Petra Poroshenka “Solidarnist” (“Solidarity” Bloc), and Oleh Lyashko’s Radykal’na Partiya Oleha Lyashka (Radical Party). Ukrainian scholar Volodymyr Ishchenko highlighted the contradictions in an article for the Guardian: “It is short-sighted and formalistic to conclude that the Ukrainian far right is insignificant based on the lack of electoral success. The rhetoric of many politicians which could be called centralist or even liberal has moved significantly to the right, competing for the increasingly patriotic and even nationalist voters.”[534] Putin’s seizure of the Crimea, along with the uprising of pro-Russian separatists in the Donbass region of Eastern Ukraine, gave the radical right new energy. In a sense, the forces of the extreme right and neo-Nazism needed to steer away from parliamentarism in order to maintain their antagonistic presence as militants in favor of dictatorship by a coup d’état.

These forces shifted to control security and the military, with a new volunteer battalion from the Azov coast gaining a particular amount of attention. Released as “political prisoners” by the new government, the neo-Nazi PU became the core of the Azov Battalion, which claimed to fight the new patriotic war against Russian ultranationalist invaders. Despite the fact that members of the battalion wore the SS’s Wolfsangel badge on their uniform and had swastika tattoos, the national guard incorporated them into its structure. This collusion between the new state and neo-Nazis seems to have stemmed from a more deeply rooted relationship between fascist and government forces in post-Cold War Ukraine—for instance, the leader of the Patriot of Ukraine (PU) and the Minister of the Interior (who oversees the national guard) came from the same province and had already worked together for five years in a number of shady dealings.[535]

In the meantime, Russian fascists have become split between joining separatist groups against the EuroMaidan movement and its new government, on the one hand, and demonstrating against Russian aid to separatists, on the other. Other far-right battalions include Aidar, accused of war crimes by Amnesty International, battalion OUN, the battalion of Pravy Sektor, the Svoboda battalion “Sich,” and more—thirty to forty battalions ranging from parafascism to neo-Nazism.[536]

Fighting on the Donbass side of the civil war were other groups of neofascists, including a group that united French, Spanish, and Serbian Duginists in combat under the banner of Unité Continentale (Continental Unity), clearly referencing Unité Radicale. On the French side, two activists formerly of Jeunesses identitaires—an early youth affiliate of Bloc Identitaire—joined Unité, one of whom had also been a member of Bouchet’s old outfit, Troisième Voie. This combatant, named Guillaume Cuvelier, acted as a member of the Front National’s security service in 2014. Others who came to fight on the separatist side included the Polish Falanga and an Italian organization called Millenium, which has connections with Mutti and Dugin and whose leaders showed up in Donetsk to a reception by Pavel Gubarev, head of the Narodnoye opolcheniye Donbassa (Donbass People’s Militia), who hailed them as “Italian antifascist volunteers.” In the words of scholar Giovanni Savino at the time, their involvement actually “indicates that the Donetsk People’s Republic was becoming a playground for fascist-inspired nationalism from all over Europe.”[537]




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Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/28/22 08:58 PM)

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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677312 - 02/28/22 07:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Ok so I promise I won't talk about goats anymore if you kindly explain to me why I should feel like its partly my govts  fault when people are acting like this Nazi thing was an issue that requires an invasion and I'm not even sure that's true ?





Well referring back to what Aaron Mate laid out regarding the U.S. government’s involvement in overthrowing the Ukraine government in 2014, the continuing refusal to negotiate being pushed by Biden etc. I’d have to go back and watch it again to quote it correctly and I’m at work at the moment.
Also I never said this was the U.S. government’s fault I said they are part of the problem.

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OnlinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro] * 1
    #27677377 - 02/28/22 08:08 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ukraine on Fire documentary goes into it, the coup, etc. It's worth a watch to see that side whether or not believable, it saying the Nazi element there goes back to the WW2 era.




    Ok but that was 7 years ago . What happened last  week that required an invasion ?


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Onlinekoods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677380 - 02/28/22 08:10 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
At least my govt tells me when we are going to war Lol .



All the shitfuckery behind the scenes doesn’t count then?



Not really. There is no excuse for it


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27677392 - 02/28/22 08:15 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

No excuse for what? The U.S. government meddling in other countries affairs? I agree.

Also, I still think Putin’s a cunt and he should not have invaded Ukraine.

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OnlinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677399 - 02/28/22 08:20 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Macron had a meeting with Putin today and he's saying the Russians are going to target civilians .  Let's not forget about how much we hate America though you guys .


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677417 - 02/28/22 08:28 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Why do you hate America? I don’t.

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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27677445 - 02/28/22 08:48 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

One of the most pervasive distortions of Russian state propaganda is that the events in Ukraine were not grassroots in origin, but a NATO/USA funded coup. You'll see this repeated ad nauseam once it's been pointed out to you:

- "We're the ones who orchestrated the coup against Ukraine's democratically elected President to make them a US puppet."

- "The US orchestrated an unconstitutional coup against Ukraine's democratically elected president, and installed a US friendly president."

- "Maybe the US shouldn't have orchestrated a coup to put in a US friendly President in charge of Ukraine in the first place?"

- "Why is this Putin's fault for defending Russians and not the US's for orchestrating a coup to overthrow the elected Ukrainian President with a corrupt Washington lackey?"

- "It was a mistake for the US to orchestrate a coup in Ukraine in the first place because we didn't like their elected leader."



Thing is, all the secret manipulation in the world won't suffice to generate mass uprisings where there is no popular discontent, and Ukraine is no exception. Externalizing the source of Ukrainian discontent is a foundational aspect of the Russian state's justification for this war, and it's not something we should be repeating without making this connection explicit - unless we want to become unwitting participants in the propaganda network.

I grabbed this reading list for anyone interested in diving deep into the background of this conflict from an anti-authoritarian perspective:


- Ukraine: A Harsh Antifascist Confrontation Awaits Us—About nationalist violence and cooptation directed at anarchists and antifascists

- Maidan and Its Contradictions: An Interview with a Ukrainian Revolutionary Syndicalist—One of the most detailed sources of anti-authoritarian perspective on these events we’ve been able to find in English

- Ukrainian Anarchist Dispels Myths Surrounding Euromaidan Protests, Warns of Fascist Influence—Transcript of an in-depth radio interview on The Final Straw with a member of the Autonomous Workers’ Union, some weeks before the climax of the protests

- The Ukrainian Euromaidan: The Solution to Putin, or Just Another Fascist Political Coup?—Thorough background on the statist and fascist interests involved in the Euromaidan protests

- Ukraine Riots: “Involuntary Ejaculation of Fire”—An analysis of the causes behind the street confrontations in Kiev in January, 2014

- Fifty Shades of Brown—Thoughts on the overthrow of the Yanukovych regime from the Autonomous Workers Union

- Lviv 19–21 February 2014—A personal narrative about the developments in Lviv

- Readers may also want to consult our recent interview with a member of Kiev’s Autonomous Workers’ Union and our older article about nationalism and behind-the-scenes manipulation of social movements in Serbia: Fake Revolutions, Real Struggles.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (02/28/22 08:55 PM)

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27677531 - 02/28/22 10:02 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Many people have been very outspoken that NATO expansion eastward might catalyze a war. People like Ted Carpenter have been writing books for nearly 2 decades waring about the dangers of NATO and predicting an expansion “would constitute a needless provocation of Russia.”

I've heard some explanations why the timing of invading now might have a lot of strategy behind it. Of course, most of the news will not cover that. There are many factors in play here.  But the media just wants to play to the simpletons and make it about the insane evil dictator Putin. Americans cheer a few days of Ukranian resistance. Russia and China play the long game of years and decades. It funny to watch the media right now - they are all a joke.

I flip around all of the news channels, and most refuse to even utter the word NATO

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InvisibleFiery
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #27677535 - 02/28/22 10:04 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Russia and China play the long game of years and decades.





I wouldn't doubt it.. but what is the long game here even?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Fiery]
    #27677615 - 02/28/22 11:09 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

And here are a few more recent articles from the anarchist perspective published within the last few weeks:


February 3rd - Ukraine: Between Two Fires
Quote:

In hopes of providing crucial background on the current tensions between Russia, Ukraine, the United States, and other members of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), we present the transcript of an excellent interview with an anarchist in Ukraine, followed by another perspective contributed by a Ukrainian anarchist from Lugansk who is now located in Kiev. We are awaiting another text from a group of Ukrainian anarchists, which we hope to publish shortly.





February 15th - War and Anarchists: Anti-Authoritarian Perspectives in Ukraine
Quote:

We present this article composed by anarchists in Ukraine to give context for how some participants in social movements there see the difficult events that have played out there over the past nine years. We believe that it is important for people everywhere to grapple with the events they describe below and the questions that those developments pose. This text should be read in the context of the other perspectives we have published from Ukraine and Russia.





February 26th - Russian Anarchists on the Invasion of Ukraine
Quote:

As the Russian invasion of Ukraine proceeds, anarchists throughout Russia continue to mobilize in protest, joining thousands of other Russians. Here, we publish two statements from longtime Russian anarchist projects that offer some analysis of the situation in Russia and how the invasion of Ukraine might shift it.



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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #27677887 - 03/01/22 06:16 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
You didn’t watch it? No worries  :thumbup:




I'll watch it if you can edit out the Jimmy Dore parts.


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The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27677895 - 03/01/22 06:26 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Haha you may have to turn the sound down but Aaron Mate is worth listening to.

I tell you what is worth watching is the video below.

Quote:

syncro said:
The Ukraine on Fire documentary goes into it, the coup, etc. It's worth a watch to see that side whether or not believable, it saying the Nazi element there goes back to the WW2 era.





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OnlinePsilynut2
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27677954 - 03/01/22 08:18 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

You know what's really funny about the video you posted , other than the rambling about Hunter Biden and the millions they made , ( like if that's relevant ).
  It claims Nazis are slaughtering people in Ukraine, but there were no refugees fleeing the violence like we see now . I guess they enjoyed the  Nazi slaughter .  Do you have anything to say about Dore's seemingly untrue claim that Aron seems to confirm ?


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InvisiblePsicomb
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27677986 - 03/01/22 09:00 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

I'm still processing how Putin is freeing the Ukranians from nazism they are being subjected to under their very Jewish president


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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something
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Offlineoursoulsinmotion
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psicomb]
    #27677994 - 03/01/22 09:07 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: oursoulsinmotion]
    #27678015 - 03/01/22 09:19 AM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The reason Russia is going after Ukraine is because of there white supremacy they have..there is videos of them treating Africans differently.

They are allowed white people to leave the country first an forcing Africans to leave last .

Edited by Mach z 800 (03/01/22 09:22 AM)

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