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Stable Genius
Durka durka


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: sudly] 1
#28049893 - 11/14/22 01:52 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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sudly said: If you don't think governmental annexation and military infringements have an influence on referendums you can say it here.
That's a broad statement.
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sudly said: The Crimean government was overtaken by Russian troops, so that's the premise of the question. That's not broad at all. There was a military infringement in Crimea during the referendum.
I still don't see why this should absolutely lead to anyone voting a certain way if people were pro Ukrainian what was stopping them voting that way, in a secret ballot, to RID the country of Russia if that was the case? Remember what I pointed out about East Timor? Armed militia were terrorising the civilians before the ballot there but they STILL voted overwhelmingly for independence.
Was the government "overtaken", it was more of a request wasn't it? I'd be GUESSING there was plenty of behind the scenes chatter during Maidan between Simferopol and Moscow as events moved quickly but they had 2-3 months of watching events unfold in Kyiv to make plans. It's obvious there was U.S. involvement in the Maidan, after continued U.S. funding, after continued NATO expansion, so why should it come as a surprise that the elected leaders of Crimea sought Russian security?
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iggyhiggy
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I'd not say absolutely, but still having around soldiers from the country asking for your annexion is something I would think about during the vote. I mean, a less 'polarized' voter, say one who doesn't care too much, would probably vote the way that doesn't piss those armed guys.
Also, if Russia says Crimean people asked for security, why send them masked etc?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: iggyhiggy]
#28049921 - 11/14/22 03:00 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said:
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sudly said: If you don't think governmental annexation and military infringements have an influence on referendums you can say it here.
That's a broad statement.
In Crimea, do you think the government being overtaken, and the military occupation of sovereign territory, is something that can influence a referendum?
This is not a broad statement, there is a lot of nuance and context behind it that supports why it is being asked.
There were repurcussions for voicing opposing opinions of the referendum within Crimea, and the Tatars have paid a high price for this.
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(Berlin) – Russian authorities have created a pervasive climate of fear and repression in Crimea in the two years since it has occupied the peninsula, Human Rights Watch said today. It is crucial for key international actors to keep Crimea’s drastically deteriorating human rights situation high on their agendas.
“Crimea’s isolation has made it very difficult to conduct comprehensive human rights monitoring there,” said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director for Human Rights Watch. “But serious human rights abuses in Crimea should not slip to the bottom of the international agenda.”
Since Russian forces began occupying Crimea in early 2014, the space for free speech, freedom of association, and media in Crimea has shrunk dramatically. In two years, authorities have failed to conduct meaningful investigations into actions of armed paramilitary groups, implicated in torture, extra-judicial killings, enforced disappearances, attacks and beatings of Crimean Tatar and pro-Ukraine activists and journalists.
Authorities have required Crimean residents either to become Russian citizens or, if they refuse, to be deemed foreigners in Crimea. Two years on, it is evident that residents who chose not to accept Russian citizenship face discrimination in getting jobs and social services.
Under the pretext of combating extremism or terrorism, the authorities have harassed, intimidated, and taken arbitrary legal action against Crimean Tatars, an ethnic minority who openly opposed Russia’s occupation.
“For the last two years, many Crimean Tatars have consistently, openly, and peacefully opposed Russian actions in Crimea,” Williamson said. “Russia has been making Crimean Tatars pay a high price for nothing more than their principled stance.”
Local authorities declared two Crimean Tatar leaders personae non gratae and prohibited them from entering Crimea; searched, threatened, or shut down Crimean Tatar media outlets and banned peaceful gatherings to commemorate historic events, such as the anniversary of the deportation of Crimean Tatars. The authorities also have harassed and intimidated Crimean Tatar activists; conducted intrusive and sometimes unwarranted searches at mosques, Islamic schools, and dozens of homes of Crimean Tatars under the pretext of searching for drugs, weapons, and prohibited literature; and initiated administrative and criminal proceedings against dozens of Crimean Tatars on trumped up charges, which included “rioting” and “terrorism.” Crimean Tatars who consciously chose not to obtain Russian citizenship are regularly questioned, and police sometimes arbitrarily search their homes.
Crimea’s prosecutor petitioned a court to recognize the actions of Mejlis, the Crimean Tatars’ elected representative body, as extremist. In February 2016, court proceedings began to determine whether to shut it down.
Russian authorities have also prosecuted people in Russia who spoke their minds on Crimea online. In June 2015, Russian authorities blocked the website of a Moscow-based consumer group that had called Crimea an “occupied territory.” The group, Public Control, became the target of a criminal investigation after the prosecutor general alleged that it sought to undermine Russia’s territorial integrity, in violation of anti-extremism legislation.
In August, a Russian military court sentenced a Ukrainian filmmaker from Crimea, Oleg Sentsov, to 20 years in jail for supposedly running a “terrorist organization.” The case against Sentsov lacked foundation and was politically motivated.
Russia’s move to gain control of Ukraine’s Crimea region began in late February 2014, when armed personnel increasingly identified as members of the Russian Federation’s armed forces began asserting their authority in Crimea.
Russian armed personnel and pro-Russian militias in Crimea prevented Ukrainian armed forces from leaving their bases, took control over strategic facilities and took over Crimea’s administrative borders with the rest of Ukraine. On March 16, 2014, Crimea’s local authorities held a referendum on whether Crimea should secede from Ukraine to join the Russian Federation. The Ukrainian government opposed the referendum, saying it was illegal.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/03/18/ukraine-fear-repression-crimea
The Ukranian government in Crimea was taken over, and seized by Russian forces. Ukraine lost its capability within Crimea to carry out executive functions like those of its security forces. The Ukranian government in Ukraine was taken over and incapacitated. Annexed.
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3.2.1.2 SUBSTANTIAL OR COMPLETE INCAPACITY OF THE GOU TO EXERT ITS POWERS IN CRIMEA The second criterion of occupation requires that the local authorities who were governing the occupied territory at the time of the invasion have been or can be rendered substantially or completely incapable of exerting their powers due to the presence of the foreign forces. This also requires the forces of the territorial State to have surrendered, withdrawn, been defeated, or be “contained in isolated enclaves”.12
The effective local government in Crimea at the time of the Russian invasion was Ukraine. Ukraine did not militarily resist Russia’s use of force against it in Crimea on 27 February 2014, but neither did its forces in Crimea surrender.
Nevertheless, Russian forces successfully contained and isolated forces loyal to Ukraine including by blockading them inside their military bases and by blocking access to the Peninsula by Ukrainian forces from the mainland. Meanwhile, Russian forces seized and blocked entry to the Crimean Parliament and Council of Ministers buildings, dismissed Ministers and replaced them with “pre-designated Russia loyalists”, 13 disarmed local law enforcement agencies, and appointed Russian loyalist Sergey Aksyonov, as ‘Prime Minister’.
From the date of these events, the Ukrainian government’s capacity to exercise its power over Crimea was substantially or completely diminished. This may first be seen, for example, in Ukraine’s subsequent inability to carry out executive functions. For example, on 1 March 2014, the President of Ukraine issued a decree stating that Aksyonov’s appointment was unconstitutional and should be revoked. Ukraine was unable to implement this executive decision and Aksyonov remained ‘in power’ in Crimea. Shortly after, Ukraine’s loss of control over judicial functions in Crimea became evident. Ukraine’s loss of control over security functions in Crimea also became clear, with Ukrainian security services admitting on 4 March 2014 that they were unable to perform their duties in Crimea, leading them to appeal not to the Ukrainian government, but to the Russian Federation, to facilitate their activities. A week later, the Ukrainian government admitted that it was unable to guarantee the safety and security of flights to the Peninsula and closed the airspace over Crimea until further notice.
On 6 March 2014, it was clear that Ukraine had also lost the ability to exercise its authority over the Crimean legislature. On this day, deputies of the Russian-controlled Crimean Parliament held an extraordinary session, during which they adopted a resolution calling for Crimea to join the Russian Federation and to hold a referendum on the matter on 16 March 2014. On 15 March 2014, in response to the Crimean Parliament’s decision to hold a referendum on independence, Ukraine’s Parliament exercised its Constitutional power to dissolve the Crimean Parliament. However, the Ukrainian government was unable to enforce this resolution and the ‘referendum’ went ahead as planned.
The factual circumstances described above suggest that by 27 February 2014, the same day of the Russian invasion into Crimea, Ukraine had been rendered substantially, if not completely, incapable of exerting its sovereign powers over Crimea by virtue of the unconsented-to presence of Russian forces. Indeed, on 15 April 2014, Ukraine’s Parliament adopted a law that conceded the GOU could not exercise its powers over Crimea from late February.
3.2.2 CONCLUSION ON THE OCCUPATION OF CRIMEA Russia’s military presence in Crimea exceeded the bounds of Ukrainian consent by at least 27 February 2014. The number of Russian troops present in Crimea continued to expand after, and Ukraine’s withholding of consent to this presence remained firm. Therefore, the first criterion of effective control was satisfied. Additionally, by 27 February 2014, Ukraine had been rendered substantially, if not completely, incapable of exerting its powers over Crimea by virtue of the Russian forces’ unconsented-to presence on the Peninsula, in satisfaction of the second criterion of effective control. Furthermore, Russia was in a position to effectively exercise executive, legislative and judicial authority over Crimea by at least 27 February 2014, thus satisfying the third criterion of effective control. Consequently, having satisfied all indicia of effective control, Russia became the Occupying Power in Crimea by 27 February 2014 and continues to occupy Crimea to this day.
https://globalrightscompliance.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/International-Law-and-Russia-Involvement-in-Crimea-and-Donbas.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1uC0KAsEW_T_ZRT7tfCUrvjdBonx-SgC3MdeKYomxCsjr-u2zDb4wxr1s
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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koods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: sudly] 2
#28049941 - 11/14/22 03:26 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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I can’t believe there are people who actually believe in the legitimacy of a referendum with a few days notice in a recently occupied territory.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Ice9
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#28050008 - 11/14/22 04:44 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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koods said: I can’t believe there are people who actually believe in the legitimacy of a referendum with a few days notice in a recently occupied territory.
Both these guys in this thread can't possibly understand why someone wouldn't vote in the face of violence. They are real brave men, and even if it were certain death, would do their civic duty. These guys are legends in their own minds.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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christopera
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Ice9]
#28050012 - 11/14/22 04:52 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Don't worry, your wife and grown children get to vote too. Maybe your uncle or your grandma. No pressure, it's not like the election is being run by an invading force or something.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: iggyhiggy]
#28050244 - 11/14/22 08:55 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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iggyhiggy said: The problem is not just them watching you while voting. The problem is having a foreign army in your land that may take control militarily if the referendum doesnt go how they wish.
Let's pretend that the soldiers would have taken control militarily if the referendum didn't go how they wish. That should only make people more eager to vote against joining Russia, because then at least they have documented their opposition.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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mushboy
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ha! youve never been around gangster style motha fuckers have you? document your opposition? sounds like a good way to get a bullet in the head.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: sudly] 1
#28050255 - 11/14/22 08:59 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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sudly said: What do you think the difference is between American soldiers 'providing security' in Iraq or Afghanistan, and Russian soldiers 'providing security' in Crimea?
The difference is the Crimean people want Russian security, the Iraqis don't want American security.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
iggyhiggy said: The problem is not just them watching you while voting. The problem is having a foreign army in your land that may take control militarily if the referendum doesnt go how they wish.
Let's pretend that the soldiers would have taken control militarily if the referendum didn't go how they wish. That should only make people more eager to vote against joining Russia, because then at least they have documented their opposition.
The presence of the military is a show of force and it intimidates people. Do you not have any common sense?
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: iggyhiggy]
#28050261 - 11/14/22 09:06 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
iggyhiggy said: Also, if Russia says Crimean people asked for security, why send them masked etc?
Why do Russian soldiers wear ski masks in the winter?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
Ribbit



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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
sudly said: What do you think the difference is between American soldiers 'providing security' in Iraq or Afghanistan, and Russian soldiers 'providing security' in Crimea?
The difference is the Crimean people want Russian security, the Iraqis don't want American security.
The Kurds would disagree with that
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
iggyhiggy said: Also, if Russia says Crimean people asked for security, why send them masked etc?
Why do Russian soldiers wear ski masks in the winter?
So the women they rape can’t identify them
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#28050268 - 11/14/22 09:09 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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koods said: I can’t believe there are people who actually believe in the legitimacy of a referendum with a few days notice in a recently occupied territory.
I'm all in favor of a UN redo, but there's no way the West will allow it because they know they'll lose.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Kryptos
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
sudly said: What do you think the difference is between American soldiers 'providing security' in Iraq or Afghanistan, and Russian soldiers 'providing security' in Crimea?
The difference is the Crimean people want Russian security, the Iraqis don't want American security.
You're just looking at the wrong polls. Look, a majority of Iraqi respondents support the US invasion of Iraq.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Ice9]
#28050274 - 11/14/22 09:13 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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Ice9 said:
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koods said: Both these guys in this thread can't possibly understand why someone wouldn't vote in the face of violence. They are real brave men, and even if it were certain death, would do their civic duty. These guys are legends in their own minds.

"Certain death" for voting in the Crimean referendum? Crimea's massive turnout came from people who showed up to face "certain death"?
This is getting retarded.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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koods
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It’s been retarded since you released your Crimean exit polls
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: christopera]
#28050281 - 11/14/22 09:17 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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christopera said: Don't worry, your wife and grown children get to vote too. Maybe your uncle or your grandma. No pressure, it's not like the election is being run by an invading force or something.
Source that the elections were run by the Russian military or the Russians?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: mushboy]
#28050283 - 11/14/22 09:19 AM (1 year, 2 months ago) |
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mushboy said: ha! youve never been around gangster style motha fuckers have you? document your opposition? sounds like a good way to get a bullet in the head.
The voting was done anonymously. No one knows how anyone voted.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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mycosis


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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
sudly said: What do you think the difference is between American soldiers 'providing security' in Iraq or Afghanistan, and Russian soldiers 'providing security' in Crimea?
The difference is the Crimean people want Russian security, the Iraqis don't want American security.
Anecdotally in my profession I’ve worked with a number of Iraqis and 100% of them loved US security. So much so that they collaborated with the military.
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