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koods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
#27705677 - 03/23/22 11:20 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
chopstick said:
Quote:
koods said:
I have no idea why you continue to post documents without any provenance whatsoever. You have no idea if this is real. I do know you and other Putin apologist spend a lot of time trying to justify the bombing and shelling of civilians.
You're the guy claiming 10 thousand dead Russians. If you can throw out those numbers I can post a document. Thanks
The largest supplier of military hardware to the Ukrainian army is the Russian army
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aloved
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#27705722 - 03/23/22 11:52 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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One of the reason to start the war was the nuclear weapon. Like Ukraine want to make NW to be shielded and Russia must not to let it be. Because of it War is an answer! (other reasons has the same level of thinking).
So, the same situation between Israel and Iran. But Israel did not start war with Iran and has no many deaths... Decision is killing key Iranian person by special Israel agents... No NW in the Iran. No big war.
So, Russia could just send some special agents to the Ukraine, to kill an Ukrainian key person to stop what was "wrong". No big war. Aims are completed.
So... Public aims, "denatification, demilitarization" - is a fake!
Global chaos to make new world order - is a true goal, Russia, Ukraine, war - just a tool.
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Kickle
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#27705725 - 03/23/22 11:53 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is an open question:
With the weapons that are being provided to the Ukrainian army being defensive weapons and the Russian army getting closer and closer to completing a land bridge making resupply significantly easier, what is the long term prognosis that you see?
For the Ukrainian army, what do you do to break/prevent any potential sieges? For the Russian army, how do you minimize losses and bring a swift end to accomplish your goal?
To me that's the state of the war. Ukraine is not offensively capable and can largely only create counters in defense. And for Russia this has already gone on too long but that also means that there is more invested in the desired outcome. So what do you see?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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chopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#27705732 - 03/23/22 11:57 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
chopstick said:
Quote:
koods said: Ukraine says that it has surrounded the Russian army in the Hostomel area. 100s of Russian troops are either gonna have to surrender or be killed. A lot of these Russians have been hanging out in very uncomfortable vehicles for two weeks now and there’s questions about their fitness to even fight anymore.
Lol this has been proven false every single time. The Ukrainians have made this claim tons of times in the past couple of weeks - somehow, they never actually take any territory there.
Do the math
And that same math says the Russians have been javelin fodder for three weeks. And they’ve never claimed they have cut off large numbers of Russians before. They’ve been fighting over hostemel and Irpin that whole time. I don’t need a foreign military to tell me what is obvious: the Russians have not gotten any closer to Kyiv in weeks.
And the 10,000 number came from a pro kremlin Russian news site.
Everytime you post you only show us all just how incredibly gullible you are. I've been trying to explain for weeks that the US and Ukraine are running a massive informational warfare campaign that dwarfs practically anything that came before it - all with the objective to keep up morale for the Ukrainians and demoralize the enemy. All these fake numbers, all these fake events, all the fake footage they use is a part of this informational warfare campaign. And you just keep falling for it, believing every absurdly ridiculous lie they come up with without a second thought.
There have only been a few real things that actually happened that Ukraine has been able to play up as a 'win' on social media. For example, a Russian patrol boat was hit by an anti-tank missile yesterday outside of Odessa. That actually did happen, as it was confirmed by both sides. But how many other such examples are there? Not many.
You're fucking hilarious man. Keep it up!
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Kickle
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
#27705739 - 03/23/22 12:03 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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There's plenty to suggest that the Kremlin's propaganda is trying to minimize the impact of the war. And that includes in regards to losses.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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koods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
#27705746 - 03/23/22 12:10 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
chopstick said:
Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
chopstick said:
Quote:
koods said: Ukraine says that it has surrounded the Russian army in the Hostomel area. 100s of Russian troops are either gonna have to surrender or be killed. A lot of these Russians have been hanging out in very uncomfortable vehicles for two weeks now and there’s questions about their fitness to even fight anymore.
Lol this has been proven false every single time. The Ukrainians have made this claim tons of times in the past couple of weeks - somehow, they never actually take any territory there.
Do the math
And that same math says the Russians have been javelin fodder for three weeks. And they’ve never claimed they have cut off large numbers of Russians before. They’ve been fighting over hostemel and Irpin that whole time. I don’t need a foreign military to tell me what is obvious: the Russians have not gotten any closer to Kyiv in weeks.
And the 10,000 number came from a pro kremlin Russian news site.
Everytime you post you only show us all just how incredibly gullible you are. I've been trying to explain for weeks that the US and Ukraine are running a massive informational warfare campaign that dwarfs practically anything that came before it - all with the objective to keep up morale for the Ukrainians and demoralize the enemy. All these fake numbers, all these fake events, all the fake footage they use is a part of this informational warfare campaign. And you just keep falling for it, believing every absurdly ridiculous lie they come up with without a second thought.
There have only been a few real things that actually happened that Ukraine has been able to play up as a 'win' on social media. For example, a Russian patrol boat was hit by an anti-tank missile yesterday outside of Odessa. That actually did happen, as it was confirmed by both sides. But how many other such examples are there? Not many.
You're fucking hilarious man. Keep it up!
I have a simple question. Why have Russia and Ukraine been fighting in the same cities for three weeks?
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aloved
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kickle] 1
#27705748 - 03/23/22 12:10 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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You are right! Many locally understandable things says so.
In Russia now are closed and blocked many of the alternative information points. And accepted law about 15 years of prison for the "disinformation" about what is going on about the army and their deals.
But many of the Ukraine information, has true details, propaganda has no any ability to make them, it is just impossible.
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chopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kickle] 2
#27705751 - 03/23/22 12:11 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: This is an open question:
With the weapons that are being provided to the Ukrainian army being defensive weapons and the Russian army getting closer and closer to completing a land bridge making resupply significantly easier, what is the long term prognosis that you see?
For the Ukrainian army, what do you do to break/prevent any potential sieges? For the Russian army, how do you minimize losses and bring a swift end to accomplish your goal?
To me that's the state of the war. Ukraine is not offensively capable and can largely only create counters in defense. And for Russia this has already gone on too long but that also means that there is more invested in the desired outcome. So what do you see?
The long term prognosis is not good for Ukraine. You have to understand that for every tank and APC Russia loses, they can quickly manufacture 5 new ones and roll them off the line.
The same is not true for Ukraine because unlike Russia all of their tank and ammunition factories are being bombed.
Compounding the issue for them is the fact that Russia is flying around 300 sorties a day right now, meaning there are on any given day 300 or so airstrikes being conducted on Ukrainian fuel depots, ammo dumps, armored vehicles, artillery batteries, radars, command HQ's, and other strategic targets. Ukraine can only resupply themselves from the border with Poland, they cannot replace all this material themselves. This means they are running out of fuel, lubricant, ammo, all the things you need to actually maintain an army - as we speak.
What does that mean? It means that sooner or later all of the forces in the Eastern half of Ukraine are going to be reduced to little more than light infantry groups which can slowly be surrounded and eventually picked off or forced to surrender. This is already happening to the Donbass grouping of Ukrainian soldiers that were stationed near Donetsk. They have nowhere to retreat, no hope of being resupplied which means a large grouping of several tens of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers will eventually be forced into a position of mass surrender in the near future.
Ukraine is fighting the info war while Russia is steadily choking out their enemy and calmly continuing to advance without worrying about it too much.
What will happen is that the entire coastline will end up being liberated, including Mariupol and Odessa (most likely), and Russia will liberate all of the smaller villages, rural countryside and medium-sized settlements while at the same time surrounding larger cities like Kiev or Kharkov and blockading them until a political settlement is reached.
The only part of Ukraine that may remain untouched is the Western region, closer to the border with Poland and which would require additional forces to attempt to storm. This small zone may be the new "Ukraine" in that it will be the only area from which Zelensky and his pals can rule over. There is a very high likelihood that the other 75% of the country or so will break off and become its own state, free of the influence of Zelensky, the US/NATO, and the neo-nazi groups.
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koods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#27705753 - 03/23/22 12:13 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Spring flooding is now underway. I wouldn’t be surprised if Russian tanks that have been hiding in the woods are now half buried in mud.
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koods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#27705761 - 03/23/22 12:18 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
What will happen is that the entire coastline will end up being liberated, including Mariupol and Odessa
Mariupol doesn’t exist anymore
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ballsalsa
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick] 1
#27705767 - 03/23/22 12:29 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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The other day, I heard my neighbor slapping his wife around so I set their house on fire and killed them both but at least I liberated the wife. She would approve of my heroic intervention, I'm sure.
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chopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] 1
#27705772 - 03/23/22 12:34 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
What will happen is that the entire coastline will end up being liberated, including Mariupol and Odessa
Mariupol doesn’t exist anymore
There are still 7,000 combat capable Azov Nazi's fighting in Mariupol out of an original force of 14,000. That's a lot of fighters.
50% of the city has been taken by DPR and Chechen forces, the remainder will fall in the coming days.
The city will need to be rebuilt, for sure. Unfortunately Azov is ensuring that as much of the city is destroyed as possible by taking up positions in apartment buildings, hospitals and other civilian buildings. It is estimated that there are 100,000 civilians trapped in the areas controlled by Azov, whom refuse to allow them to leave, shooting anyone that dares to try. Which means that these people can only be freed once DPR forces eliminate any Azov units preventing them from escaping the burnt out city.
It's really unfortunate what Azov is doing. They treat human life with the same callous disrespect as ISIS or any other hardcore terrorist group.
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koods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
#27705778 - 03/23/22 12:43 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Russia bombs a city into dust and you’re blaming the people defending it. You and falcon are fucked up.
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chopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#27705798 - 03/23/22 01:08 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I've seen "numerous eyewitnesses, drone footage, and even random TikTok'ers" posted in this thread with the intention of 'verifying' both Russian and Ukrainian militaries as intentionally targeting civilians. It seems far more likely that confirmation bias is behind your viewpoint that only one subset of these collections are accurate representations of the situation.
The way I see it, even if both militaries were extremely committed to avoiding civilian casualties, there would still be civilian casualties - that's the reality of war. Similarly, I doubt either military has 'avoid civilian casualties' as a top priority - that's another reality of war. Any suggestion that only one side is responsible for harming civilians immediately strikes me as propaganda, because war has never broken down like that.
So why would somebody need to create a fake document to slander Ukraine? To germinate responses just like the one you displayed - where it is used to confirm a pre-existing bias.
I am not claiming that Russia is not killing any civilians at all. As you say, that's simply not possible in war.
However, it is true that one side (Ukraine) is taking it to the extreme. This is not surprising, given that they are responsible having killed ~15,000 civilians in Donbass over the past 8 years and furthermore, view the population of Eastern Ukraine as pro-Russian scum deserving of being wiped out. They know they cannot win the hearts and minds of these people so they have decided that as many of them should die in the war as possible. There are numerous videos to this effect, the Ukrainians have admitted these viewpoints themselves in several interviews. I have watched some of them, they are real, maybe I will look for them again later if I have time.
It is true that Ukraine is taking up positions in schools, hospitals, apartment buildings, and other civilian infrastructure. There is plenty of proof, they even go so far as to photograph themselves in these places in some instances.
And it is true that they are taking human shields in the same vein as ISIS or any other radical terrorist group, at-least in the case of Mariupol. The unfortunate reality is that Azov and some of the other nationalist units, in terms of radical ideology, are basically the Eastern European ISIS, only instead of hating Shia muslims, they hate Russia with an almost pathological level of hatred. It is this hatred that drives them to commit these deeds.
And you could say, well, Russia invaded so it's still their fault that these people are dying even if Ukraine is using these deplorable tactics. And on that point I would agree if it weren't for one thing - the fact that Ukraine has been waging a war of aggression on Donbass for the past 8 years and has already killed some 15,000 of their own nation's citizens. I make no secret of my bias in favor of the people of Donbass. I followed the war from the very beginning of the 2014 Maidan coup. I watched as Ukraine began to recklessly slaughter these people. I saw them as the underdog. Naturally I could not help but to feel sympathy for them. I still feel sympathy for them even now.
I won't apologize for it. Ukraine had 8 years to try and settle the Donbass 'issue' politically and peacefully. It should be noted that by the end of 2014, Ukraine lost this war they started against Donbass. Some have said that by the end of 2014 Ukraine only had 5,000 combat-ready soldiers remaining. DPR and LPR forces were advancing and taking territory. They could have taken much more. Guess who stopped them? Russia, with the Minsk agreement, pressured them to call off their advance at the time, threatening to cut off supplies if they did not comply. It was only because of Russia that DPR and LPR did not already take more territory when they had the chance!
Ukraine, instead of doing the sensible thing, reign in their crazed homocidal nationalists and follow Minsk, spent the past 8 years preparing for a massive offensive on Donbass to once again attempt to settle the situation by raw military power. What we are seeing now is the result. It's a tragedy, really.
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#27705803 - 03/23/22 01:15 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Oh dear god…ChopChop.
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Kickle
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
#27705807 - 03/23/22 01:20 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well that is a substantive post. I don't know how you can not also mention the origins of the fighting in the Donbas region though. Similar to this war we are watching unfold now, civilians were enlisted from the Ukranian side to defend against Russian agression. Because Ukraine did not have a military but needed to respond to Russian weaponry.
You know what tends to happen to civilians who suddenly find themselves engaging in warfare? They get real radical real fast. You can hardly expect them to just suddenly give up. They've lost everything that they had. They were not soliders. They were not equipped mentally or otherwise for the realities of war. So to just suddenly say, OK, good job guys, go home, we're giving up on it. Well, they had already given up everything to fight. There was no semblance of themselves to go back to. The only thing left was the purpose that caused them to fight in the first place -- to protect Ukraine. If they don't have that, why did they face all the horror? Why did they kill? Why did they see their friends killed?
Ukraine is certainly not the only place this has played out.
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koods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kickle]
#27705812 - 03/23/22 01:29 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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All these things have been happening for 8 years I keep hearing. Almost like the shit hit the fan in Ukraine when Russia invaded.
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chopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] 1
#27705814 - 03/23/22 01:31 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Russia bombs a city into dust and you’re blaming the people defending it. You and falcon are fucked up.
Azov was essentially an occupying force that was involved in suppressing the population of Mariupol prior to the war's outbreak. Mariupol was once a pro-Russian city. Even now, they are more neutral than pro-Ukrainian. But this is only because of the efforts of the Ukrainian SBU that brutally oppressed these people and made certain that any vocal pro-Russians in the city were either imprisoned or executed. This has been a constant thing for the past 8 years that the nationalists have controlled Mariupol.
So yes, the city is essentially being liberated from hardcore fascist elements that were at odds with the local population. And these fascists have decided they are going to take down as many civilians with them as they can.
There will be no anti-Russia protests in Mariupol after the city falls, unlike some other towns. This is a reflection of the sentiment of the people of Mariupol who for the most part never liked the Ukrainian regime anyway and have been brutalized by Azov & co. non-stop for 8 years.
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Kickle
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#27705816 - 03/23/22 01:33 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes. And the warfare has been guerilla for a long time. Because Ukraine's fighting has been about survival against a bigger army for a long time.
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koods
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
#27705818 - 03/23/22 01:33 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Putin is never going to leave Russia or it’s puppet states again. He’s going to get Milošević‘d
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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