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Invisiblechopstick
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo] * 1
    #27700745 - 03/18/22 09:17 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
  If you think something different is on the table, then YOU need to source it.





I did.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27700711#27700711





No where in this article does it claim they are going to "take over" Ukraine. There is a difference between returning Ukraine to the Russian sphere of influence and a long-term military occupation. Might want to give that another read so you understand what you're referencing.

There are many pro-Russian Ukrainians, but before Russia's intervention they were an oppressed group subject to arrest, torture, execution, and mass murder in the case of people living in Donbass. Given how Azov has treated people in Mariupol by taking human shields and executing hostages, I wager there are a lot of Ukrainians that will have a bone to pick with the former regime, and thus embrace returning to friendly relations with Russia.

Edited by chopstick (03/18/22 09:19 PM)

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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo] * 1
    #27700750 - 03/18/22 09:27 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

I don’t know what’s going on there but I believe there may be more to it than initially meets the eye.  Writing speeches before major events as if they’ve gone according to plan (and also another for when things don’t) is a common political practice.  I can think of many scenarios in which such a piece gets stumbled upon by the so called “other side” and from there - gets twisted and spun to fit a wonky maligned narrative not concerned with honesty - but rather an agenda - fueled by emotional momentum and taking advantage of that fact.  Or it could be as the article says.    Who knows…And as to claiming to know what the exact nature of what it really about - it is speculation.  Mainstream media isn’t exactly trustworthy when they are as much an appendage of the State as they are for the agendas of those that would profit off of the general public’s ignorance concerning the actual state of affairs. 

Quality, honest communication is desperately needed.  Censorship & propaganda is lame.


--------------------
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Edited by The Blind Ass (03/18/22 10:27 PM)

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27700761 - 03/18/22 09:41 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

When someone has armed soldiers occupying my town, I vote whichever way makes them happy


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27700771 - 03/18/22 09:50 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
And then you claimed things that were off the table.

Source, or Make Believe?

(11th time I've asked, now? just today)



How many times do I have to answer this until you read it?  My source is US News & World Report, which I've given you repeatedly now.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27700772 - 03/18/22 09:52 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
  If you think something different is on the table, then YOU need to source it.




I did.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27700711#27700711



What does some author's fantasy of a post war world have to do with what's on the table right now?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27700774 - 03/18/22 09:56 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
When someone has armed soldiers occupying my town, I vote whichever way makes them happy



Sure, but that wasn't the case in Crimea.  The armed soldiers were defending Crimea's borders from Ukraine, and no one I spoke with ever saw Russian soldiers during the election.  And again, even if you don't believe me, nor the results of the referendum, there were post-election polls taken showing the same results.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27700778 - 03/18/22 10:01 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
And then you claimed things that were off the table.

Source, or Make Believe?

(11th time I've asked, now? just today)



How many times do I have to answer this until you read it?  My source is US News & World Report, which I've given you repeatedly now.




Appeal to authority fallacy. Prove that Putin thinks that annexing Ukraine is off the table. As you claimed.

Again, I am asking you to demonstrate Putin's thoughts to me. Not what he or his spokespeople say. Because that would be a fallacy. That would require me to trust an authority that is demonstrably biased.

Or just say it way you talking out of your ass about what you think Putin thinks.

Source, or Make Believe?

For example: Here is a source with a big fancy name that claims Putin wants to invade all of Ukraine. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/23/putin-seeks-regime-change-and-is-likely-to-invade-ukraine-analyst-.html

It also happens to be a source that is not demonstrably and immediately part of the conflict.

Edited by Kryptos (03/18/22 10:11 PM)

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OfflineKwyjibo
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27700780 - 03/18/22 10:02 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

What does some author's fantasy of a post war world have to do with what's on the table right now?



You mean the article from the Russian owned news agency that was accidentally released prematurely? I'm sure none of what is in there represents Russia's intentions or wishes.:whateveryousayfreak:

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27700793 - 03/18/22 10:15 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Prove that Putin thinks that annexing Ukraine is off the table. As you claimed.

Again, I am asking you to demonstrate Putin's thoughts to me. Not what he or his spokespeople say. Because that would be a fallacy. That would require me to trust an authority that is demonstrably biased.

Or just say it way you talking out of your ass about what you think Putin thinks.

Source, or Make Believe?

For example: Here is a source with a big fancy name that claims Putin wants to invade all of Ukraine. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/23/putin-seeks-regime-change-and-is-likely-to-invade-ukraine-analyst-.html

It also happens to be a source that is not demonstrably and immediately part of the conflict.



We KNOW what's on the negotiating table.  What does it matter what Putin would like in his own mind?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKwyjibo
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27700799 - 03/18/22 10:19 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
  What does it matter what Putin would like in his own mind?



Considering he's the one who started the war it matters a whole fucking lot.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27700804 - 03/18/22 10:22 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
You mean the article from the Russian owned news agency that was accidentally released prematurely? I'm sure none of what is in there represents Russia's intentions or wishes.:whateveryousayfreak:



You seem to think Russia is still Communist Soviet Union.  People there today are free to write their own works.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKwyjibo
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27700809 - 03/18/22 10:25 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
You mean the article from the Russian owned news agency that was accidentally released prematurely? I'm sure none of what is in there represents Russia's intentions or wishes.:whateveryousayfreak:



You seem to think Russia is still Communist Soviet Union.  People there today are free to write their own works.



No, they're not free to write whatever they want.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27700814 - 03/18/22 10:30 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Prove that Putin thinks that annexing Ukraine is off the table. As you claimed.

Again, I am asking you to demonstrate Putin's thoughts to me. Not what he or his spokespeople say. Because that would be a fallacy. That would require me to trust an authority that is demonstrably biased.

Or just say it way you talking out of your ass about what you think Putin thinks.

Source, or Fuckin' Make Believe?

For example: Here is a source with a big fancy name that claims Putin wants to invade all of Ukraine. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/23/putin-seeks-regime-change-and-is-likely-to-invade-ukraine-analyst-.html

It also happens to be a source that is not demonstrably and immediately part of the conflict.



We KNOW what's on the negotiating table.  What does it matter what Putin would like in his own mind?




No we don't. Putin's demands change pretty quickly, as a perusal of your quotes demonstrates.

You made a pretty goddamn specific claim that Putin was not interested in annexing Ukraine. I provided a source showing the opposite. You have....not. Mostly because you made a stupid claim. Just, frankly, idiotic. Your opinion is shit.

So, let me ask you for the sixteenth time today.

Source or Make Believe?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27700819 - 03/18/22 10:38 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
  What does it matter what Putin would like in his own mind?



Considering he's the one who started the war it matters a whole fucking lot.



Russia is currently asking for the following:

- A neutral Ukraine (won't join NATO)
- Recognition of Crimea as Russian territory
- Recognition of Donetsk and Lugansk as independent
- Denazification of Ukraine
- Russian speech allowed in Ukraine; laws prohibiting it abolished
- Demilitarization of Ukraine and abandonment of weapons that could be a threat to the Kremlin.

Whether or not Putin wants to take over the Ukraine or the world, it doesn't matter, as that's not on the table.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27700822 - 03/18/22 10:41 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
You mean the article from the Russian owned news agency that was accidentally released prematurely? I'm sure none of what is in there represents Russia's intentions or wishes.:whateveryousayfreak:



You seem to think Russia is still Communist Soviet Union.  People there today are free to write their own works.



No, they're not free to write whatever they want.



Actually, they are.  I know you think Russia is still communist Soviet Union, but they're not anymore.  Staff at RT have come out and said they were amazed at how much more freedom they had to say whatever they liked on RT than mainstream media.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27700825 - 03/18/22 10:43 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Whether or not Putin wants to take over the Ukraine or the world, it doesn't matter, as that's not on the table.




Source or Make Believe

(#17)

Also, six demands? I recall you posting five demands the other day, and then dropping down to four demands when challenged for a source. So which is it? Four? Five? Six?

Or are you talking out of your ass again?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27700829 - 03/18/22 10:48 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
You made a pretty goddamn specific claim that Putin was not interested in annexing Ukraine. I provided a source showing the opposite. You have....not. Mostly because you made a stupid claim. Just, frankly, idiotic. Your opinion is shit.

So, let me ask you for the sixteenth time today.

Source or Make Believe?



I think it was clear I meant that the annexation of Ukraine was never a Russian demand.  I don't know if I said he wasn't interested in annexing Ukraine(?), but I DO KNOW I said "Whether they 'want' to or not, I have no idea, but it's never been a stated goal, nor is it on the table now."


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27700832 - 03/18/22 10:50 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
"nor is it on the table now."




Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


Source, or Make Believe?


#18

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27700840 - 03/18/22 10:58 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Whether or not Putin wants to take over the Ukraine or the world, it doesn't matter, as that's not on the table.




Source or Make Believe

(#17)



How many times do I have to keep linking you to it?

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Also, six demands? I recall you posting five demands the other day, and then dropping down to four demands when challenged for a source. So which is it? Four? Five? Six?

Or are you talking out of your ass again?



The negotiations are evolving.  The more Zelensky's forces get crushed, the more I guess Russia is going to demand.  Six demands is the latest I found.
As always, here is the link.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kryptos]
    #27700873 - 03/18/22 11:35 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Again, you're pretty fucking great at answering questions you have not been asked.

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
"nor is it on the table now."




Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


Source, or Make Believe?


#18





I guess that's #19 now.

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